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Ozzy
2008-Sep-28, 02:25 AM
They've done it!

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/space/2008-09-26-china-spacemission_N.htm


The spacewalk paves the way for assembling a space station from two Shenzhou orbital modules, the next major goal of China's manned spaceflight program. China is also pursuing lunar exploration and may attempt to land a man on the moon in the next decade — possibly ahead of NASA's 2020 target date for returning to the moon.

What are the odds that the first moon colony will be Chinese?

Neverfly
2008-Sep-28, 03:03 AM
They've done it!

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/space/2008-09-26-china-spacemission_N.htm



What are the odds that the first moon colony will be Chinese?

That report sounds familiar...

Somehow, I wouldn't be too surprised if their spacestation suddenly turns outward, fires its motors and heads off for Europa under the new callsign, "Tsien."

Sam5
2008-Sep-28, 03:54 AM
Wow, what a well-organized country! Great music too!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFTHe2ZJqUE&feature=related

Romanus
2008-Sep-28, 05:25 AM
Somehow, I wouldn't be too surprised if their spacestation suddenly turns outward, fires its motors and heads off for Europa under the new callsign, "Tsien."

Bonus if they get killed by newfound Europan life. ;)

loglo
2008-Sep-28, 05:49 AM
They've done it!

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/space/2008-09-26-china-spacemission_N.htm

What are the odds that the first moon colony will be Chinese?


The real question is "What are the odds they will complete their space station before the ISS is completed?" :whistle:

RegisteredUsername
2008-Sep-28, 01:45 PM
A small one.. maybe 50 50.. But for a size comparable to the ISS..
.
.
1000 to 1

cj341
2008-Sep-28, 01:47 PM
You are happy that communists are in space now?

Ronald Brak
2008-Sep-28, 02:00 PM
You are happy that communists are in space now?

Yeah sure, why not? I'm happy that a social democrat flew across the English Channel with a jetpack, so why not be happy that communists are in space? It makes as much sense as anything else.

cj341
2008-Sep-28, 02:47 PM
Yeah sure, why not?

You obviously don't know about what they have done do you?

cj341
2008-Sep-28, 02:50 PM
To quote someone who's name I am strulgging to remember "Communism is the worst thing to happen in the history of mankind."

KaiYeves
2008-Sep-28, 04:43 PM
People are flying with jetpacks, and new countries are walking in space! Don't you love the 21st century?

Ronald Brak
2008-Sep-28, 04:54 PM
You obviously don't know about what they have done do you?

Worse than those genocidal Australians? Let's just hope no one does terrible things from now on. And that's all I'll say on this thread. Maybe we should both read through those BAUT posting rules one more time. It might stop us getting kicked off.

cj341
2008-Sep-28, 05:25 PM
umm okay fine????

Metricyard
2008-Sep-28, 05:34 PM
You are happy that communists are in space now?

And where would the Russians fit into this evil scenario?
The Soviet Union has had a very successful space program for 50 years. Haven't heard too many people complain about that.

TheHalcyonYear
2008-Sep-28, 05:38 PM
To quote someone who's name I am strulgging to remember "Communism is the worst thing to happen in the history of mankind."
Wow, this isn't the least bit political is it!! Actuallty I think that communism as a way of handling human affairs is not such a bad sort of concept. It's the implementation that was not so good.

Actually, communism as espoused by Karl Marx was never implemented in China since China didn't have the industrial base to support the concept. It was our small minded western thought that tended to label all totalitarian govnernments that are not our friends as communist.

Tinaa
2008-Sep-28, 06:10 PM
cj341 stop with the political communist cracks. They are inappropriate. This is an official warning.

astromark
2008-Sep-28, 06:31 PM
Yay... the voice of moderation.

The rules are clear. I for one find the attitude offensive. And wanted to comment on the ignorance displayed. Now I will not need to. Thank you Tinaa.

Proof of the technical adeptness. The ability to go into space is a clear indication of an advanced culture. I applaud the effort., and eagerly await the next installment.
Humanity is the better for advancements like this. Science is the way forward to a better understanding of those things I see as important. China has joined the team.
Leave your political opinions to your self. How about inviting them to drop in on the ISS for a coffee. Add a module maybe.

cj341
2008-Sep-28, 07:47 PM
what? they're communists? you know what. I am deleting my own account. save you some trouble.

kleindoofy
2008-Sep-28, 07:53 PM
... What are the odds that the first moon colony will be Chinese?
Before this thread gets locked, I'd like to ask: what are the odds that there will ever be a moon colony at all?

Something tells me that by the time we're capable of having one, we'll realize that exactly those capabilities mean that we don't need one, and consequently will never build one.

Hmmm, if the Chinese do aim for the moon, that just might start a new space race, with interesting new results.

Would that race be USA + Russia + Europe vs. China, or a free-for-all?

01101001
2008-Sep-28, 08:20 PM
what? they're communists? you know what. I am deleting my own account. save you some trouble.

Just making a record...

Van Rijn
2008-Sep-28, 09:40 PM
Wow, this isn't the least bit political is it!! Actuallty I think that communism as a way of handling human affairs is not such a bad sort of concept. It's the implementation that was not so good.

Actually, communism as espoused by Karl Marx was never implemented in China since China didn't have the industrial base to support the concept. It was our small minded western thought that tended to label all totalitarian govnernments that are not our friends as communist.

So you made a comment on somebody else's political post, and decided to make your own highly political post? :doh:

ToSeek
2008-Sep-28, 09:45 PM
So you made a comment on somebody else's political post, and decided to make your own highly political post? :doh:

I have to agree with this - remember that political discussions are verboten here unless they're very closely tied to science or space exploration.

KaiYeves
2008-Sep-28, 10:29 PM
China has joined the team.
Leave your political opinions to your self. How about inviting them to drop in on the ISS for a coffee. Add a module maybe.
Here, here!

TheHalcyonYear
2008-Sep-28, 10:39 PM
Worse than those genocidal Australians? Let's just hope no one does terrible things from now on. And that's all I'll say on this thread. Maybe we should both read through those BAUT posting rules one more time. It might stop us getting kicked off.
Yeah, like this one??

Perhaps it was not intended, but I feel singled out while others make such posts with impunity!!

sirius0
2008-Sep-29, 12:36 PM
The whole point here is that just as an American man made one small step in 1969. One small step for a Chinese man in 2008 is also a giant leap for humanity!

ravens_cry
2008-Sep-29, 01:08 PM
The whole point here is that just as an American man made one small step in 1969. One small step for a Chinese man in 2008 is also a giant leap for humanity!
Damn straight!
The more the merrier in space, I always say. I have expressed my distaste and displeasure at The People's Republic of China's human rights policies. However, if they want to go tho the moon, and make something of it, then they should go. I cheered when they space walked, and I will cheer if they moon walk. When America goes to the moon,I will cheer. When the first Space Tourist spacewalks, I will cheer. And when I go to the moon in 2050, I will cheer.

NEOWatcher
2008-Sep-29, 01:43 PM
Is there a question on this thread that doesn't call for speculation?

closetgeek
2008-Sep-29, 02:01 PM
The whole point here is that just as an American man made one small step in 1969. One small step for a Chinese man in 2008 is also a giant leap for humanity!

That's the way I see it. Who knows! perhaps this time it won't be a space race, rather a combined effort for greater advancements. The only thing I caution is that we not order our straws and flatware from China :whistle:

jlhredshift
2008-Sep-29, 02:07 PM
Why do the Chinese and Russians insist on landing on the higher risk land instead of water. They both have large navies. Also, the Chinese capsule seemed small for three people, though I suppose that Apollo wasn't any bigger.

(I know, more speculation)

NEOWatcher
2008-Sep-29, 02:27 PM
Why do the Chinese and Russians insist on landing on the higher risk land instead of water...
My guess would be that it's political in the way that they can control the outcome a little better from inside the borders.
Although; that doesn't rule out some other minor advantages that landing "in-country" has with travel or recovery or something to that effect.

cjameshuff
2008-Sep-29, 02:34 PM
Why do the Chinese and Russians insist on landing on the higher risk land instead of water. They both have large navies. Also, the Chinese capsule seemed small for three people, though I suppose that Apollo wasn't any bigger.

They both have lots and lots of open land, allowing them flexibility in landing sites that are under their complete control. As for risk, the landing method seems to work fine in practice. And the capsule's actually bigger than the Soyuz, which also carries 3 people.

Knave
2008-Sep-29, 02:45 PM
It was our small minded western thought that tended to label all totalitarian govnernments that are not our friends as communist.

Must be their own small minded thought that causes them to label themselves communist.

nauthiz
2008-Sep-29, 02:50 PM
Presumably there's some good reason for coming down on land, since nobody's been doing water landings for something like 30 years. Maybe land isn't really higher risk?

jlhredshift
2008-Sep-29, 02:55 PM
Presumably there's some good reason for coming down on land, since nobody's been doing water landings for something like 30 years. Maybe land isn't really higher risk?

True, but how many people were unfortunately lost during water landing missions?

Swift
2008-Sep-29, 03:14 PM
I suspect that from a safety standpoint, it doesn't make much difference whether you land in the water or on land. If the chutes fail, you're probably dead either way. For a land landing (that sounds weird), you need a lot of open, unoccupied territory, which Russia certainly has. And with a land landing, you are less likely to drown.

TheHalcyonYear
2008-Sep-29, 03:14 PM
Must be their own small minded thought that causes them to label themselves communist.
Yeah, I'm raked over the coals for my comment, and this one passes right by!! If I respond to this I risk banning since I have been warned!

This if certainly fair!!

nauthiz
2008-Sep-29, 03:15 PM
True, but how many people were unfortunately lost during water landing missions?
None that I know of for water landings.

The only death from a capsule landing on the ground that I know of was Soyuz 1: the main chute didn't open. Presumably having your capsule hit the water that hard wouldn't give you a whole lot more chance for survival than hitting the ground.

The only other death on re-entry for a capsule that I know of was due to premature depressurization of the vehicle, which is something that could happen regardless of where you're landing.

Swift
2008-Sep-29, 03:16 PM
True, but how many people were unfortunately lost during water landing missions?
One of the Mercury missions came very close - the capsule flooded and sank and the astronaut barely got out. One of the Gemini missions splashed down very far from the carrier group; they were floating around in the ocean for several hours and I believe one of the astronauts got seasick.

nauthiz
2008-Sep-29, 03:20 PM
One of the Gemini missions splashed down very far from the carrier group; they were floating around in the ocean for several hours and I believe one of the astronauts got seasick.

Kind of ironic that someone could make it through however long in microgravity and still manage to get seasick after the return to earth. I'd figure anyone who can handle being in orbit would have an ironclad stomach.

jlhredshift
2008-Sep-29, 03:30 PM
One of the Mercury missions came very close - the capsule flooded and sank and the astronaut barely got out. One of the Gemini missions splashed down very far from the carrier group; they were floating around in the ocean for several hours and I believe one of the astronauts got seasick.

Thank you. Good answers and I didn't know about the "seasick" incident. I need to be more clear when posting rhetorical questions. Sorry if I put anyone out.

Swift
2008-Sep-29, 03:31 PM
Kind of ironic that someone could make it through however long in microgravity and still manage to get seasick after the return to earth. I'd figure anyone who can handle being in orbit would have an ironclad stomach.
It came up while I was watching the The NASA Missions - When We Left Earth (http://dsc.discovery.com/tv/nasa/nasa.html) on the Discovery Channel this weekend. I don't recall which Gemini mission it was, but one of the two astronauts was a Navy guy (Armstrong?) and was poking gentle fun at his non-Navy colleague's reaction to extended time floating around the Pacific.

Swift
2008-Sep-29, 03:34 PM
I need to be more clear when posting rhetorical questions. Sorry if I put anyone out.
Actually, I find it an interesting question (splashlandings versus landings) and I good chance to dig stuff up from memory.

jlhredshift
2008-Sep-29, 03:37 PM
Actually, I find it an interesting question (splashlandings versus landings) and I good chance to dig stuff up from memory.

And, land landings sounds weird to me too.


Oh well.... more cookies on the table.

Neverfly
2008-Sep-29, 03:42 PM
And, land landings sounds weird to me too.


Oh well.... more cookies on the table.

It's why I call them Splashdowns and Landings.



Munch Munch Gobblesnarf Bite*

nauthiz
2008-Sep-29, 03:44 PM
Hey, no talking about cookies before I've managed to get any breakfast!

:cry: <- This is the face my tummy is making.

ngc3314
2008-Sep-29, 03:50 PM
In the early days, the US program certainly saw advantages to water landings. They had a genuine blue-water two-or-more-ocean navy available (especially helpful with Gemini 8's emergency return), it allowed more survivability in the event of a partial parachute malfunction (Apollo 15 would have been really painful on land), and allowed plenty of error bar for off-target landings. Come to think of it, it also opened up mission planning options when lunar missions made stringent calls on every other margin in mission design. Through Apollo, the astronauts did train for emergency landings on dry ground, though. Possible political worries about defection, kidnapping, or simply unwanted close observation of their cosmonauts aside, the USSR didn't have nearly such an extensive Navy and, as has been said, plenty of fairly empty land to come down in. (It has been demonstrated by example that a Soyuz is capable of water landings, though I seem to recall that it's not stable enough to float for a very long time). One a program has made this basic design choice, that propagates through the whole program and support infrastructure.

Whether the CEV is designed for dry or wet landings has changed with time - last I remember it was water. There is a good case now that with GPS navigation they could rely on being able to land in fairly small bodies of water like the Banana River between the Florida mainland and the Cape.

Neverfly
2008-Sep-29, 03:52 PM
Hey, no talking about cookies before I've managed to get any breakfast!

:cry: <- This is the face my tummy is making.

So Sorryhttp://planetsmilies.net/eat-drink-smiley-7854.gif

jlhredshift
2008-Sep-29, 04:09 PM
... it allowed more survivability in the event of a partial parachute malfunction (Apollo 15 would have been really painful on land), and allowed plenty of error bar for off-target landings..

Which is my real point that the safety of the crew was paramount.

Swift
2008-Sep-29, 04:29 PM
Whether the CEV is designed for dry or wet landings has changed with time - last I remember it was water. There is a good case now that with GPS navigation they could rely on being able to land in fairly small bodies of water like the Banana River between the Florida mainland and the Cape.
Looks like they are working on water (http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/constellation/main/index.html).

Scale models of the Orion crew exploration vehicle recently were tested at NASA’s Neutral Buoyancy Laboratory, or NBL, at NASA's Johnson Space Center in Houston and at a wave tank at Texas A&M University in College Station.

NASA conducted a series of buoyancy and flotation characteristics tests using the NBL and a 1/4-scale model of the Orion crew capsule. The model was lowered into the NBL’s 6.2-million-gallon pool and was floated in a series of positions. This testing will allow the engineers and the NBL team to develop their full-scale crew training mock-up that will be used for mission training and for creating the crew safety procedures for water-based landings of the Orion crew capsule.

NEOWatcher
2008-Sep-29, 04:55 PM
Looks like they are working on water (http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/constellation/main/index.html).
I'm not so sure what that indicates.
It looks like the stories on NASA are written from the narrow view of the test that they are reporting on.

There are plenty of "airbag" drop test references to make it sound like a land-ing.

So; I wonder if it's just a matter of planning for a land recovery, but the abort procedures necessitate a water recover, so it must be capable of both.

LaurelHS
2008-Sep-29, 05:28 PM
It came up while I was watching the The NASA Missions - When We Left Earth (http://dsc.discovery.com/tv/nasa/nasa.html) on the Discovery Channel this weekend. I don't recall which Gemini mission it was, but one of the two astronauts was a Navy guy (Armstrong?) and was poking gentle fun at his non-Navy colleague's reaction to extended time floating around the Pacific.

It was Gemini 8. Armstrong's non-Navy colleague was Dave Scott (Air Force).

ToSeek
2008-Sep-29, 06:59 PM
Must be their own small minded thought that causes them to label themselves communist.

Please review our rules and stay away from political commentary. Thanks.

ToSeek
BAUT Forum Moderator

ToSeek
2008-Sep-29, 07:03 PM
Yeah, I'm raked over the coals for my comment, and this one passes right by!! If I respond to this I risk banning since I have been warned!

This if certainly fair!!

If you object to a post, you are free to report it. If you don't report it, you have no right to complain that the moderators have not responded to it. We are not omnipresent.

ToSeek
BAUT Forum Moderator

captain swoop
2008-Sep-29, 09:16 PM
Didn't one of the Russians have to fight off Wolves while he waited for the recovery team?

GeorgeLeRoyTirebiter
2008-Sep-29, 10:33 PM
Possible political worries about defection, kidnapping, or simply unwanted close observation of their cosmonauts aside...

Those probably weren't big concerns compared to the possibility of losing the cosmonauts in an emergency. This page (http://www.svengrahn.pp.se/histind/Ugol/Ugol.html) shows some of the potential emergency landing sites for Soyuz 19 (ASTP) and Soyuz 33 (failed Salyut 6 docking), based on the cosmonauts' "read back" of their landing site form. Some of the sites are in or near Soviet territory (Kazakhstan, central Ukraine, the Sea of Okhotsk and Sea of Japan), but many are not (the plains of the Picardie region of France, and the prairies of North America).

The Soyuz landing capsule also has rescue instructions in both Russian and approximate English:
"Man in side! Help!"
"Take the key!"
"Open the hatch!"
"Help to go out!"

LaurelHS
2008-Sep-29, 11:22 PM
Didn't one of the Russians have to fight off Wolves while he waited for the recovery team?

This happened after the landing of Voskhod 2. (http://www.astronautix.com/flights/voskhod2.htm)

KaiYeves
2008-Sep-30, 01:44 AM
That's the way I see it. Who knows! perhaps this time it won't be a space race, rather a combined effort for greater advancements.
Everybody on this thread is reading my mind! ;-)

JonClarke
2008-Sep-30, 02:03 AM
Why do the Chinese and Russians insist on landing on the higher risk land instead of water. They both have large navies. Also, the Chinese capsule seemed small for three people, though I suppose that Apollo wasn't any bigger.

(I know, more speculation)

Why is it higher risk?

I suspect The reasons they opted for it is primarily geography. The US has fairly small areas of country where land recover is feasible, China and the former USSR have large areas. Naval resources and global distribution of both were limited compared to the US. Also the prime US launch site flies out over water because of its coastal location so ballistic flights would automatically come down in the sea as would launch aborts. The best sites for the USSR and China to launch from were inland.

Of course both countries trained for emergency water landings, just as the US trained for emergency terrestrial sites.

Jon

JonClarke
2008-Sep-30, 02:35 AM
None that I know of for water landings.

The only death from a capsule landing on the ground that I know of was Soyuz 1: the main chute didn't open. Presumably having your capsule hit the water that hard wouldn't give you a whole lot more chance for survival than hitting the ground.

The only other death on re-entry for a capsule that I know of was due to premature depressurization of the vehicle, which is something that could happen regardless of where you're landing.

Of course Gus Grissom was lucky to survive his water landing and the Soyuz 23 crew theirs.

JonClarke
2008-Sep-30, 02:38 AM
Those probably weren't big concerns compared to the possibility of losing the cosmonauts in an emergency. This page (http://www.svengrahn.pp.se/histind/Ugol/Ugol.html) shows some of the potential emergency landing sites for Soyuz 19 (ASTP) and Soyuz 33 (failed Salyut 6 docking), based on the cosmonauts' "read back" of their landing site form. Some of the sites are in or near Soviet territory (Kazakhstan, central Ukraine, the Sea of Okhotsk and Sea of Japan), but many are not (the plains of the Picardie region of France, and the prairies of North America).

The Soyuz landing capsule also has rescue instructions in both Russian and approximate English:
"Man in side! Help!"
"Take the key!"
"Open the hatch!"
"Help to go out!"

There was also an emergency landing zone in Australia. A colleague of mine helped select it.

JonClarke
2008-Sep-30, 02:40 AM
Didn't one of the Russians have to fight off Wolves while he waited for the recovery team?

the story grew in the telling. the Voskhod 2 crew heard wolves while the waited for the recover team. But since wolf howling carries for many km it is unlikely there were any close.

Ozzy
2008-Sep-30, 04:24 AM
The whole point here is that just as an American man made one small step in 1969. One small step for a Chinese man in 2008 is also a giant leap for humanity!

You got it!

Since the OP, the Chinese have expressed a wish to beat the Americans to Mars.
So the odds are low that they will establish the first moon base, but high that they will be the first to Mars.

Nothin' like a friendly dose of competition.

Imagine what we will acheive when we realise that working together is mutually beneficial.

Alpha Centuria here we come!

sirius0
2008-Sep-30, 04:56 AM
You got it!

Since the OP, the Chinese have expressed a wish to beat the Americans to Mars.
So the odds are low that they will establish the first moon base, but high that they will be the first to Mars.

Nothin' like a friendly dose of competition.

Imagine what we will acheive when we realise that working together is mutually beneficial.

Alpha Centuria here we come!
No! Don't let the cat out of the bag mate! That's for the Aussies!

greatgreekcollector
2008-Sep-30, 06:57 AM
Worse than those genocidal Australians?............ Maybe we should both read through those BAUT posting rules one more time. ............It might stop us getting kicked off.
What drugs or alternate Universe are you on......
Since when ever were Australians called "genocidal" except in a paranoid persons mind...

This has nothing to do with the Chinese trying to get to space.....

They already have run out of room on their own piece of land, poisoned the rivers, their milk supplies, poisoned their atmosphere in the homeland, sent poisoned dog food to US and crap products (oops should be "substandard" items) worldwide, and now they will dump into space more junk and more failures than there are Chinese on the planet.....and we'll only hear about the successes, not their failures.

Long live their zeal for control and domination of people, the internet, newspapers, information and free will, cos they will surely stuff up anything else they can get to......

greatgreekcollector
2008-Sep-30, 07:17 AM
I have to agree with this - remember that political discussions are verboten here unless they're very closely tied to science or space exploration.


And what ever happened to the freedom of speech or the right to disagree with "verboten" edicts..... unless you are one of them.....:naughty:

I prefer benevolent dictatorships....or even somewhere that anarchists can rise up and challenge the ruling proletariat and take over the madhouse....:whistle:

and some need a sense of humor as well........harharhar lol lol lol......:shhh:

Ozzy
2008-Sep-30, 07:17 AM
I choose to be optomistic.

I choose to believe that within two generations (maybe less), we will have multinational crews exploring the solar system.

I might be proven wrong, but at least Ill have felt good for years, instead of feeling angry and lousy.

Dont you agree Mr Sulo?

PraedSt
2008-Sep-30, 08:01 AM
Couple of points:

1. This you know, but as an economist, and reading some of the above posts, I feel I ought to comment. The Chinese economy can hardly be described as communist. In some fields, Massachusetts is worse.

2. All this talk about international cooperation makes me vomit. Most of the time, I like the fact we're a blood-thirsty, aggressive, selfish, greedy, possessive species. I don't think we would be here, chatting on an internet forum about the next frontier, if we weren't. More than China's recent progress, I welcome the fact that they want to beat us. Hopefully it will make us: angry, work 18hr days, and take extraordinary risks. Excellent.

Thanks!

Tinaa
2008-Sep-30, 11:24 AM
And what ever happened to the freedom of speech or the right to disagree with "verboten" edicts..... unless you are one of them.....:naughty:

I prefer benevolent dictatorships....or even somewhere that anarchists can rise up and challenge the ruling proletariat and take over the madhouse....:whistle:

and some need a sense of humor as well........harharhar lol lol lol......:shhh:

BAUT is a benevolent dicatorship. And the no politics rule is there for a reason.

I'm going to close this thread because several people can not adhere to the rules.

ToSeek
2008-Sep-30, 01:43 PM
And what ever happened to the freedom of speech or the right to disagree with "verboten" edicts..... unless you are one of them.....:naughty:


I'm not inhibiting your freedom of speech in the least: if you want to start your own message board and post whatever you want there, I won't stand in your way. But when you're on our message board, you play by the rules of the folks paying for it.