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NASA Fan
2003-Oct-26, 03:58 AM
There was a brief story on the news about plagiarizing. It seems that it has become quite popular for high school and college student to "cut and paste" reports and not giving proper credit. They said that of the people poled 38% thought that cutting and pasting was trivial, no big deal and was not plaerizing.

It made me wonder what you thought.

I think that it is worse to plagiarize by cutting and pasting, than what we had to do when I was in school; which was copy it out of a book and type it on the computer ourselves. At least we had to do a bit more work.

No, to the best of my knowledge I never plagerized, I always gave credit where credit was due. I could have slipped somewhere and forgotten a credit somewhere, I am not going to claim to be perfect.

So what do you think?

Dragonlor
2003-Oct-26, 04:04 AM
Plagiarize: Take and use (the thoughts, writings, inventions, etc of another person) as one's own.

Copy and paste is plagiarism in my book. Those 38% are delusional or just jerks.

SpaceTrekkie
2003-Oct-26, 04:09 AM
Only if you dont say where u got it / who u got it from

NASA Fan
2003-Oct-26, 04:15 AM
I think that that was the whole point that they had not given any credit.

SpaceTrekkie
2003-Oct-26, 04:16 AM
lol sorry i did not read the whole post before voting.... :oops: :oops:

NASA Fan
2003-Oct-26, 04:20 AM
Thats OK, you can't be perfect all the time, that just makes people dislike you. Right?

Humphrey
2003-Oct-26, 04:24 AM
Plagerism is a big problem. Now some professors can sign up for a service that the students send their paper into. The service scans the papers and chacks them against a database. It then flags sentances and paragraphs that are copies of other passages and highlights them for the professor. Then when the professor reads them he/she can decide if it was plagarism or not.


Some people are stupid when they do plagerize. And i mean really stupid. MY professor said already thei year a fellow professor of his caught one student plagerizing. How did he catch her? She had prined it from the net and the adress from where she printed it from was at the top of every page.


Stupid.

Musashi
2003-Oct-26, 04:25 AM
A lot of students don't realize that you have to use proper citation of any and all works used. If you don't cite, it's plagerism.

SpaceTrekkie
2003-Oct-26, 04:26 AM
Plagerism is a big problem. Now some professors can sign up for a service that the students send their paper into. The service scans the papers and chacks them against a database. It then flags sentances and paragraphs that are copies of other passages and highlights them for the professor. Then when the professor reads them he/she can decide if it was plagarism or not.


Some people are stupid when they do plagerize. And i mean really stupid. MY professor said already thei year a fellow professor of his caught one student plagerizing. How did he catch her? She had prined it from the net and the adress from where she printed it from was at the top of every page.


Stupid.

I belive i mentioned this on the IRC...Natrual selection did not do a very good job.

Humphrey
2003-Oct-26, 04:31 AM
Agreed space.

I try to cite everything. Heck in two of my papers when i udes noted from lecutre i actually citied that they were from lecture. I do not weant to get suspended for plagerism.



Then again there is that NYT guy who plagerized a ton of articles and was never cuaght for a long time. How he got so far is well beyond me.

NASA Fan
2003-Oct-26, 04:33 AM
In college I was required to take a class that was called "Composition 1" where we learned the proper way to write papers, and in all other classes where we wrote papers they said that we had to cite our sourses.

We were also taught that in high school.

That is still taught in school today right?


I just remembered, I did plagerize once. I was about 9 and in the 3rd. grade. In one of the essays we had assigned in Danish class, I quoted something that another teacher had said. My Danish teacher did ask me for my sourses. I had no idea what she was talking about at the time, but I think that at that young of an age my actions could be excused.

SpaceTrekkie
2003-Oct-26, 04:35 AM
We were also taught that in high school.

That is still taught in school today right?




Definitly! Everytime we do anything with research we get long lectures about plagerising (sp?) and the proper way to cite our sources!

Kaptain K
2003-Oct-26, 05:07 AM
I think that it is worse to plagiarize by cutting and pasting, than what we had to do when I was in school; which was copy it out of a book and type it on the computer ourselves. At least we had to do a bit more work.
You had computers? :roll: We didn't even have calculators! :o In fact, electric typewriters were a rarity. 8)

NASA Fan
2003-Oct-26, 05:21 AM
I had a teacher who told us about when he was in school, there was a debate about whether the students who had their own typewriters had an unfair advantage. It makes you realise how far we have come, when today it is (almost) assumed that students have their own PC or laptop.

Mr. X
2003-Oct-26, 05:36 AM
Yes, copy and pasting is plagiarizing.

Paraphrasing, or rephrasing is plagiarizing.

Influencing yourself too heavily (however that may be) from the work of others is plagiarizing.

Any citation, reference to other work, not properly identified with quotation marks and a footnote is plagiarizing.

There is no excuse for this, and the only consequence I can see is exclusion.

Xbalanque
2003-Oct-26, 06:41 AM
Once when I was grading papers, I was suspicious by the businesslike language and style used by a freshman. I very easily found the entire paper on a website. Needless to say, it went downhill from there.

If you don't cite the source it's plagiarism, plain and simple.


(In the spirit of honesty, my signature is the title of an article in the now-defunct journal Lingua Franca.)

Humphrey
2003-Oct-26, 06:55 AM
Both of the main signatures i use are my own creations.

Mr. X
2003-Oct-26, 07:28 AM
My signature isn't mine, hence the quotes, but I want where it came from to remain a mystery... :D

kilopi
2003-Oct-26, 12:12 PM
Yes, copy and pasting is plagiarizing.

Except, it doesn't have to be. Just like stabbing someone through the heart doesn't have to be murder, unless they die. :)


Any citation, reference to other work, not properly identified with quotation marks and a footnote is plagiarizing.

There is no excuse for this, and the only consequence I can see is exclusion.
eh??

My signature isn't mine, hence the quotes, but I want where it came from to remain a mystery...

dgruss23
2003-Oct-26, 12:31 PM
There are ways to cut back on the plagarism if you give the right kind of assignment. Make it long term with deadlines along the way. Have the students periodically turn in articles they've read with short summaries of the article's content. Make sure as part of the assignment they have to present some original analysis. Make sure that the assignment has some specifics in it that makes it pretty much impossible for them to turn in one of those stock essays available on the internet.

I had a student last year that even with those expectations cut and pasted. It was pretty funny actually. You'd have a few fluent sounding sentences with a sprinkling of big words the student didn't even know the meaning of. Then a paragraph of the students own writing with grammar and spelling mistakes. It looked like a paper written by two people.

But I also think the purpose of assignments needs to be carefully evaluated. Why is this particular assignment being given? Is it just so that students can regurgitate a bunch of facts? Or are they being asked to take a position? I personally am not so sure that a "research paper" has to be what we try to make them. There are other ways to address the writing/research skills that many research paper assignments supposedly address. But I've got to go now so I'll have to say more on that later.

Gmann
2003-Oct-26, 12:49 PM
Absolutely! Give credit where credit is due. If you cut and paste, or copy verbatum, and don't cite the source [-X

Donnie B.
2003-Oct-26, 03:17 PM
Some people are stupid when they do plagerize. And i mean really stupid. MY professor said already thei year a fellow professor of his caught one student plagerizing. How did he catch her? She had prined it from the net and the adress from where she printed it from was at the top of every page.


Stupid.
I've heard of another case of "extreme stupidity" in plagiarism. A college professor received a paper from a student that was a verbatim copy -- of one of his own published papers!

Reacher
2003-Oct-26, 03:26 PM
One idiot at my school failed to turn in his book report this year, so he printed off an alarmingly short summary of the book and handed it in... Not realising it was the blurb from the back of every single copy of the book in the damn class.


Idiot.

xbck1
2003-Oct-26, 03:31 PM
I've heard of another case of "extreme stupidity" in plagiarism. A college professor received a paper from a student that was a verbatim copy -- of one of his own published papers!URBAN LEGEND ALERT!!!

Check out Snopes2 (http://www.snopes2.com/) (go here (http://snopes.com/college/homework/profpapr.htm) also) to get the real facts behind that story. It's easy to find on the net or in urban legend books

Mr. X
2003-Oct-26, 06:13 PM
Yes... I am AWARE of the irony of saying this and not having a footnote in my signature, kilopi, but then again this isn't work, and I told you I want you to guess where it comes from. When you guess it I'll add it. It's a "where's that quote from" chase. Take a guess!


Except, it doesn't have to be. Just like stabbing someone through the heart doesn't have to be murder, unless they die. :) Yes but it's ATTEMPTED murder nonetheless. The intention was the same. The only thing it shows is that were going to but weren't able. :)

At my school, people are brought in for interrogation for plagiarizing. They proceeed with a "We know you cheated/copied/plagiarized, so why don't you just admit it now?" routine with the promise of letting them off "easy" if they admit. These "sessions" last for a few hours at a time of intimidation, of spelling out how they can "destroy your future for this" if they find out you actually cheated. Of course at this point the class is failed, and exclusion form the school will most likely happen, it's just whether or not they will intervene in demands for admission to other schools.

Of course, people still do, and always will slip through, and nothing can be done about that. It's just a matter of doing the most damage possible to those who do get caught so that the others fear doing it. I feel it's a good tactic.

Humphrey
2003-Oct-26, 08:30 PM
I had one professor who had us write a origonal essay using knoledge we knew. It was impossible to plagurize

It was a anthropology class. In it we had to create a story where we went back in time and observed a culture. We then had to show what we saw, how the people acted, and what the area looked like. IT had to be acurate. So we had to study the time period and the cultures and translate that into a stroy. It was fun and you had to do work.

Mr. X
2003-Oct-26, 09:59 PM
The problem with dgruss' long term assignments and puncutal work is that it puts unecessary strain on the students. If a student has an important exam that happens on the same day as the checkpoint, then he's done for. There's nothing I hate more than having to lose stydying time because an inflexible idiot asked for work that has to be turned in the same day as an exam.

The teachers answer to this as: "It is a long term assignment, so you should have tought of it before." The singlehandedly most annoying, uncooperative, dumbest, downright hostile answer there is. Like the teacher always did everything on time when he was studying. It's actually pretty funny how fast teachers seem to forget the days when they were students. Hell I've even had a teacher wo refused to budge certain dates because it was infringing on his gymnasium time (not that I don't agree, it's just that it can be moved, whereas the rest of the semester can't).

And let's face it, if there is one annoying trait of school it's its goddamned legendary inflexibilty. A BBQed chicken is more flexible than these guys.

Long term, session long assignments don't work. They are the most hated, annoying and time wasting assignments there is. What's even worse is that students cooperate with each other to make it to the checkpoints, which is just as bad as copy and pasting. What this makes is 20 similar but slightly different works. They're different enough to not to scream "COPY!" out loud, but they're too similar to believe they're original work. They land in the exact grey zone the school cheating department hates, because they could get in trouble for harassing students that did not cheat after all.

pmcolt
2003-Oct-26, 10:19 PM
Cut & paste without citing is plagiarism; it's passing off someone else's knowledge and work as your own. This is something that should be known long before high school graduation. Even my high school English teacher made it clear that if we copy & pasted, paraphrased, or otherwise misrepresented someone else's work as our own on any paper, she would enter a -100 (negative one-hundred) in our grade for the paper if we were caught.

Long term assignments are irritating, but what can you do? I, like just about everyone else I know, generally wait till the last day before starting on any assignment less than ten pages. Sometimes I get away with it, sometimes not, but it's my responsibility to get it done on time. If I have other projects competing for my time, it's my responsibility to plan ahead and get something done in advance.

If it's impossible for me to get everything done, then I ask the professor for an extension. If he doesn't give me one, then he's just a jerk. :roll:

The Supreme Canuck
2003-Oct-26, 11:14 PM
Plagerism is a big problem. Now some professors can sign up for a service that the students send their paper into. The service scans the papers and chacks them against a database. It then flags sentances and paragraphs that are copies of other passages and highlights them for the professor. Then when the professor reads them he/she can decide if it was plagarism or not.

There was a big thing about this in Canadian Universities a few weeks ago. Some students didn't like the fact that their works were being copied into a database. They argued that their work (by having other works checked against it) was being used to benefit the proof reading company and was therefore plagarism in itself. Sounds odd, but when you think about it... :o

dgruss23
2003-Oct-26, 11:41 PM
Mr.X wrote: The problem with dgruss' long term assignments and puncutal work is that it puts unecessary strain on the students. If a student has an important exam that happens on the same day as the checkpoint, then he's done for. There's nothing I hate more than having to lose stydying time because an inflexible idiot asked for work that has to be turned in the same day as an exam.

Thatís the academic life Mr.X. Youíre taking multiple courses and sometimes projects are due the same day as an exam. Hence the reason I said that it is better if these types of assignments are long term with well planned deadlines. Now that I have some time let me describe what was actually an effective long term assignment.

Last year I was teaching an environmental science class. My major goal for the students in the course was to be able to take a look at both sides of an issue and be able to form a reasoned position based upon the evidence and arguments made on both sides. So throughout the course I modeled this by finding articles that touched on both sides of the issues, having the students debate those issues and so on. Finally, with 15 weeks left I felt it was time for them to spread their wings. So this was the assignment:

1. Pick an issue they were interested in. It didnít even have to be an environmental science issue because I was interested in the process, not the topic. I stressed to them to find something they liked. Why? Because they were going to be spending quite a while working on it.
2. They were asked to over a 10 week time frame find 10 articles on their topic and write short to the point summaries of the evidence and arguments presented in the article and their own thoughts. I told them keep it to the front of a page. One summary was due each week.
3. Upon completion of the article summary period they had 3 weeks to work on writing the paper according to the guidelines I gave them which was basically a referenced (from their articles) summary of the two positions with their thoughts and suggestions.

Oh and they were given a fair amount of class time to work on it. That was the way to do a long term project. I had some wonderful results. Much better than the standard ďWrite a paper on this topic. Its due in X weeks. See you then.Ē


The teachers answer to this as: "It is a long term assignment, so you should have tought of it before."

How many students put long term projects off to the last minute? Quite a few! So yeah, its not the teachers fault if you have one month(or longer) to do an assignment and the weekend before the week its due you have the SAT's and two nights before it due you have a basketball game and the night before its due you have a test to study for. Don't procrastinate. However Ö


The singlehandedly most annoying, uncooperative, dumbest, downright hostile answer there is. Like the teacher always did everything on time when he was studying. It's actually pretty funny how fast teachers seem to forget the days when they were students.

Yep. There are teachers like that Ö and there are teachers that arenít. Let me tell you how I handled it. Students frequently told me that they hadnít had time to finish a summary for a deadline. Personally, I think that in most cases thatís poor time management, but my response was to say ďNo problem, get it to me on Monday.Ē


And let's face it, if there is one annoying trait of school it's its ........... legendary inflexibilty. A BBQed chicken is more flexible than these guys.

Remain Calm Mr.X! This is hardly a statement that is universally true. Schools reflect all the personalities you have in all reaches of life. You have inflexible people that wonít budge on a deadline. You have flexible people that will work with the students to strike a balance between expectations and understanding individual circumstances. You have softies that wonít set any standard whatsoever. Iíve seen it all in my building.


Long term, session long assignments don't work. They are the most hated, annoying and time wasting assignments there is.

Yep, often they are. That is why I said this:


dgruss: I personally am not so sure that a "research paper" has to be what we try to make them. There are other ways to address the writing/research skills that many research paper assignments supposedly address. But I've got to go now so I'll have to say more on that later.


I think the standard research papers are a waste of time that do invite cheating. But I can tell you the assignment I described above was a good experience for many of my students in that class last year. Sure, I had a few that copied and pasted. And I had a few that procrastinated and missed the deadlines. Not surprisingly most of those students were the ones that were failing most courses.


What's even worse is that students cooperate with each other to make it to the checkpoints, which is just as bad as copy and pasting. What this makes is 20 similar but slightly different works. They're different enough to not to scream "COPY!" out loud, but they're too similar to believe they're original work. They land in the exact grey zone the school cheating department hates, because they could get in trouble for harassing students that did not cheat after all.

Interesting. This is not what I observed at all with that project. With the few exceptions most of the students did pick topics they were interested in and they could not have copied with each other because they were doing different topics. Most of the students commented on their final exam that the most important thing they learned in the course was to research the facts for themselves and look carefully at both sides of the issue Ė which is exactly what I asked them to do with the project.

Mr. X, Iím truly sorry that youíve had bad experiences with teachers in your school(s). But it does nothing to foster interesting discussion to castigate all teachers as out of touch and inflexible.

kilopi
2003-Oct-26, 11:49 PM
Except, it doesn't have to be. Just like stabbing someone through the heart doesn't have to be murder, unless they die. :) Yes but it's ATTEMPTED murder nonetheless. The intention was the same. The only thing it shows is that were going to but weren't able.
But in the case of cutting and pasting, the intent is not usually plagiarism. You can cut and paste and not plagiarize, after all. I cut and paste many times a day, and never plagiarize.

Mr. X
2003-Oct-27, 12:55 AM
Thatís the academic life Mr.X. Youíre taking multiple courses and sometimes projects are due the same day as an exam. Hence the reason I said that it is better if these types of assignments are long term with well planned deadlines. Now that I have some time let me describe what was actually an effective long term assignment.
Again comes the planning of the deadlines. My experience with this has been that it has no effect at all. The deadlines have been set for ages, and another teacher puts an exam on top of it. The answer of both of the teachers is "Why the hell should I care? Why are you even telling me this?". Nice. The careful planning changed a lot, as you can see.


1. Pick an issue they were interested in. It didnít even have to be an environmental science issue because I was interested in the process, not the topic. I stressed to them to find something they liked. Why? Because they were going to be spending quite a while working on it.
I believe every student I am with would prefer a radomly assigned subject. If the teacher has any kind of sense (doesn't deliberately choose annoying topics like one I had did) it's much better for everyone. My beliefs and tastes, but I am saying this for quite a few students.


2. They were asked to over a 10 week time frame find 10 articles on their topic and write short to the point summaries of the evidence and arguments presented in the article and their own thoughts. I told them keep it to the front of a page. One summary was due each week.
Those are fine. In certain classes ( I believe they were materials engineering classes) we had to give back an exercise that summarized the week to be graded. It worked ok, but at points it was unecessarily putting strain on people, yet again.




Oh and they were given a fair amount of class time to work on it. That was the way to do a long term project. I had some wonderful results. Much better than the standard ďWrite a paper on this topic. Its due in X weeks. See you then.Ē
My teachers usually don't give time in class, as they consider it "their" time and if they are not talking, then they are giving away their time, and that's a big no-no.


How many students put long term projects off to the last minute? Quite a few! So yeah, its not the teachers fault if you have one month(or longer) to do an assignment and the weekend before the week its due you have the SAT's and two nights before it due you have a basketball game and the night before its due you have a test to study for. Don't procrastinate. However Ö
Don't procrastinate. This is always funny, because, after all, who doesn't? Especially when studying. Maybe the first free time you get happens to be in the last week (as it usually happens), and that is without losing any time? Unless you are able to study multiple subjects at once, you have to subsequently get ready for the first exam, the second exam, the nth exam, and the project, so logically anyone would proceed in that order.


Yep. There are teachers like that Ö and there are teachers that arenít. Let me tell you how I handled it. Students frequently told me that they hadnít had time to finish a summary for a deadline. Personally, I think that in most cases thatís poor time management, but my response was to say ďNo problem, get it to me on Monday.Ē
I can't comment on the personally what you think part, because you can think whatever you want of a student as long as you don't say it out loud. I personally have no mercy for any teacher that emits any kind of "judgment" of people out loud, something like saying "You manage your time poorly" gets me red and shouting insults. There can be a message in a funny remark, but it has to be very well worded and respectful. But that's beside the point. My experience of asking to give work later or even earlier at times, or to push back deadlines, has been that it is absolutely, completely, positively, entirely, totally impossible to move a deadline by even as much as a few minutes. I mean most if not all of my teachers pick up the work from their "box" at the precise moment of the deadline. If he has his key in the box it's too late, he won't take it. 5, 10 seconds makes no difference, they don't accept it.


Remain Calm Mr.X! This is hardly a statement that is universally true. Schools reflect all the personalities you have in all reaches of life. You have inflexible people that wonít budge on a deadline. You have flexible people that will work with the students to strike a balance between expectations and understanding individual circumstances. You have softies that wonít set any standard whatsoever. Iíve seen it all in my building.
There's quite a difference there because I haven't seen it all. All I have seen is inflexibility at its finest. All I've seen is bureaucracy over bureaucracy over bureaucracy. My school can take upwards of 6 months to fix a miscalculation on an exam, 8 months to have an exam recorrected, and a year to have a grade changed. And that is after filling out form after form after form, and shelling out money too. You want to know inflexibility? I'm talking about failing students on exams they couldn't pass because of a room reservation errors, and backed 100% by the school. Failing exams that can technically be passed at ANY TIME because, hey, there isn't any place left! Nice isn't it?

Personally a softie would be a nice change of pace for me.


I think the standard research papers are a waste of time that do invite cheating. But I can tell you the assignment I described above was a good experience for many of my students in that class last year. Sure, I had a few that copied and pasted. And I had a few that procrastinated and missed the deadlines. Not surprisingly most of those students were the ones that were failing most courses.
There you are making an unfair generalization yourself Mr. dgruss. The fact that someone misses a deadline in your class means nothing of the person's other classes. And I do believe that students are even entitled to confidentiality of their grades that don't regard you, so unless you did something really really wrong you're doing the exact same thing.

I hope that you're not implying anything towards myself, because you'd be dead wrong, and boy do I mean way off.


Interesting. This is not what I observed at all with that project. With the few exceptions most of the students did pick topics they were interested in and they could not have copied with each other because they were doing different topics. Most of the students commented on their final exam that the most important thing they learned in the course was to research the facts for themselves and look carefully at both sides of the issue Ė which is exactly what I asked them to do with the project.
While giving out different subjects hinders unapproved teamwork, it doesn't flat out prevent it. Summarizing articles can be done by giving them out to a few people and having them do it for you. Same can be done about the final work. It distances the possible resemblance, but they'd still be based upon a common "template", maybe enough to fool a teacher?


Mr. X, Iím truly sorry that youíve had bad experiences with teachers in your school(s). But it does nothing to foster interesting discussion to castigate all teachers as out of touch and inflexible.
And the same thing could be said here, because you're doing the exact same thing, castigating certain students as hopeless idiots unable to manage their time.


But in the case of cutting and pasting, the intent is not usually plagiarism. You can cut and paste and not plagiarize, after all. I cut and paste many times a day, and never plagiarize.
Of course, I am still talking of the context of official school work. In here you can do whatever you want and no one would probably make anything of it. Same thing with writing a quote on a piece of paper. If plagiarism is NOT intended, then it has to be appropriately done.


If it's impossible for me to get everything done, then I ask the professor for an extension. If he doesn't give me one, then he's just a jerk.Let me think... when was the last time that happened to me... thinking... oh that's right, never. I don't even bother asking anymore.

NASA Fan
2003-Oct-27, 01:51 AM
Quote:
I think the standard research papers are a waste of time that do invite cheating. But I can tell you the assignment I described above was a good experience for many of my students in that class last year. Sure, I had a few that copied and pasted. And I had a few that procrastinated and missed the deadlines. Not surprisingly most of those students were the ones that were failing most courses.

There you are making an unfair generalization yourself Mr. dgruss. The fact that someone misses a deadline in your class means nothing of the person's other classes. And I do believe that students are even entitled to confidentiality of their grades that don't regard you, so unless you did something really really wrong you're doing the exact same thing.

Not neccesairly. In my world history class there was one student who achived grades of something like 12% to 20% on test, and thus not much better for his semester grades. How do I know this, because he would talk about his grades and how he was failing most of his classes.

In Texas we have a "no pass-no play" rule, so you might learn about a student failing other classes when you heard that he/she was barred from playing.

Humphrey
2003-Oct-27, 02:13 AM
Mr. X. just remain calm. :-)

dgruss23
2003-Oct-27, 02:24 AM
Mr. X: Again comes the planning of the deadlines. My experience with this has been that it has no effect at all. The deadlines have been set for ages, and another teacher puts an exam on top of it. The answer of both of the teachers is "Why the hell should I care? Why are you even telling me this?". Nice. The careful planning changed a lot, as you can see.

There obviously isn't careful planning if the appearance of a test (another part of being a student) complete fouls up a student's efforts to complete a long term paper/project. And most teachers announce their tests a week ahead of time, so its not like the student wouldn't know about both with sufficient time to work out a schedule. And many teachers are flexible about deadlines to a certain amount.


dgruss
I think the standard research papers are a waste of time that do invite cheating. But I can tell you the assignment I described above was a good experience for many of my students in that class last year. Sure, I had a few that copied and pasted. And I had a few that procrastinated and missed the deadlines. Not surprisingly most of those students were the ones that were failing most courses.


Mr. X: There you are making an unfair generalization yourself Mr. dgruss. The fact that someone misses a deadline in your class means nothing of the person's other classes. And I do believe that students are even entitled to confidentiality of their grades that don't regard you, so unless you did something really really wrong you're doing the exact same thing.

But you see the thing is ... Teachers have access to student grades. You have conferences with the parents and see the student's report cards. What I am telling you is that the students that did not meet the deadlines for the most part were students not do homework in any of their classes. Period. That's not an unfair generalization, that's the way it was with last years class.

In fact it should hardly be a shocker -- students that don't do homework are more likely to fail. What's surprising about that? Notice the insertion of the key words "more likely" keeps it from being an overgeneralization. Kind of like the "most of those" utilized in the statement you claim is an overgeneraliztion in fact was inserted so that the statement would not be an overgeneralization. These are the important subtleties of the use of language. Here, lets compare that with what you wrote:


And let's face it, if there is one annoying trait of school it's its goddamned legendary inflexibilty. A BBQed chicken is more flexible than these guys.

and this:


Mr. X: It's actually pretty funny how fast teachers seem to forget the days when they were students.

Notice how your statements lack the qualifiers that are needed to keep them from being overgeneralizations. For example, it would be no problem for you to say: "Its actually pretty funny how fast many teachers seem to forget the days when they were students." But as you've said it you've in fact overgeneralized whereas I did not. You're entitled to do that of course, but I'll point it out as such.

As to confidentiality ... it is understood that the grades are such, but among the teachers that have any given student in class, the performance and grades of the student in other classes is relevant data. Its a way to find out what skills the student needs help with. Its a way to find out what techniques have worked to help the student in other classes.

And by the way, one thing I do not do is treat students differently (in a negative sense) based upon how they perform in other classes. Some teachers may, but I don't do that. The knowledge of the students performance in other classes is strictly for the purspose of trying to find out how to help the student. You don't even seek out that information unless you have a student that needs help.


I hope that you're not implying anything towards myself, because you'd be dead wrong, and boy do I mean way off.

What exactly did I say that would even make you think that? I said nothing personal toward you. Most of what I've said here is about my philosophy on this question. There is no need to misinterpret what I'm saying. What I say is what I mean.


dgruss: Mr. X, Iím truly sorry that youíve had bad experiences with teachers in your school(s). But it does nothing to foster interesting discussion to castigate all teachers as out of touch and inflexible.


Mr. X: And the same thing could be said here, because you're doing the exact same thing, castigating certain students as hopeless idiots unable to manage their time.

Hmm... perhaps you could point to where I implied "hopeless idiots". Don't put words in my mouth. Again I say what I mean. I didn't say "hopeless idiots", so you can be sure that is not what I meant. In fact, I spend a lot of time talking with students about organization and time management. A little bit in class, but a lot in those moments you get to pull a student aside and talk about their performance on quizzes/tests and so on.

What I have said is that the time is there if the students plan ahead. When a student has two months to work on a project and hasn't started it until the last week it is due .... its a bit ridiculous to blame the teacher about some test the student has the same day the paper is due. And that doesn't mean the student is a hopeless idiot. It means the student needs to learn how to budget time or commit to doing the work at all if the student rarely turns in work.

You seem to think there are huge problems. What are your solutions?

Xbalanque
2003-Oct-27, 03:39 AM
This has ventured slightly off topic (or maybe not). The fact is, school is about priorities. It is up to the student to manage his time and keep pace with the progression of the semester. If a student cannot or will not do so, then maybe his time would be better spent elsewhere. Teachers are not required to schedule assignments and exams around the whims of individual students, although there may certainly be some flexibility. Midterms occur during the middle of the semester, and final exams are at the end. This should hardly be a surprise. With more than one class, there are bound to be conflicts, and learning such things as how to manage your time and your life are parts of the overall learning process.

Musashi
2003-Oct-27, 04:12 AM
Well put Xbalanque. I wanted to say all of that stuff, but I couldn't get it written down very well.

dgruss23
2003-Oct-27, 10:57 AM
This has ventured slightly off topic (or maybe not). The fact is, school is about priorities. It is up to the student to manage his time and keep pace with the progression of the semester. If a student cannot or will not do so, then maybe his time would be better spent elsewhere. Teachers are not required to schedule assignments and exams around the whims of individual students, although there may certainly be some flexibility. Midterms occur during the middle of the semester, and final exams are at the end. This should hardly be a surprise. With more than one class, there are bound to be conflicts, and learning such things as how to manage your time and your life are parts of the overall learning process.

You're exactly right Xbalanque - including the venturing a bit off topic. My original point was simply that there are ways to structure an assignment so that plagarizing is more difficult. The frequent but well mapped out deadlines is part of that. It is more difficult to plagarize an entire paper when you have to be turning in summaries right along - especially if those summaries are expected to be included in the final paper. And there is less motivation to do so if you're allowed to choose a topic that interests you. The project I described above worked very well for most of the students. But if the assignment is to just "go write a research paper", you're going to get plagarized papers - or entire papers bought from the paper mills.

Kaptain K
2003-Oct-27, 01:57 PM
Not only is it, as dgruss23 says, a part of academic life, but it is an introduction to the real world. When you leave the sheltered world of academia, you will find that the world in general and your boss in particular, don't give a rat's patoot whether their demands conflict with your priorities.

Mr. X
2003-Oct-27, 04:13 PM
There obviously isn't careful planning if the appearance of a test (another part of being a student) complete fouls up a student's efforts to complete a long term paper/project. And most teachers announce their tests a week ahead of time, so its not like the student wouldn't know about both with sufficient time to work out a schedule. And many teachers are flexible about deadlines to a certain amount.
And there isn't careful planning at all since we have 5 or 6 different people scheduling independently of one another. I've seen people with exams one on top of the other, and the student had to see the administration so the teacher had to be FORCED to allow him to pass a different exam. The exams are scheduled about 4-5 months in advance, and moving any of them destroys the entire session.


But you see the thing is ... Teachers have access to student grades. You have conferences with the parents and see the student's report cards.
I can't remember the last time my university called my parents to have a look at my grades. Knowledge of my grades is mine alone. My parents don't even have to know, that's why the report card comes in the mail, with "confidential" on it and my name, not my parent's.


What I am telling you is that the students that did not meet the deadlines for the most part were students not do homework in any of their classes. Period. That's not an unfair generalization, that's the way it was with last years class.
Your personal experience versus mine. I've experienced the exact opposite many times over. There's nothing more that can be made of it.


In fact it should hardly be a shocker -- students that don't do homework are more likely to fail. What's surprising about that?
It's not what I've experienced, and from my experience this has as many chances of being true as being false. Again, your experience against mine, and nothing can be made of this.


Notice the insertion of the key words "more likely" keeps it from being an overgeneralization. Kind of like the "most of those" utilized in the statement you claim is an overgeneraliztion in fact...

whereas I did not. You're entitled to do that of course, but I'll point it out as such.
And you're entitled to give me an english lesson of course, but I'll point it out as such.


As to confidentiality ... it is understood that the grades are such, but among the teachers that have any given student in class, the performance and grades of the student in other classes is relevant data. Its a way to find out what skills the student needs help with. Its a way to find out what techniques have worked to help the student in other classes.
I diasgree. The grade in the materials class has nothing to do with the grade in the mechanics class. No teacher is allowed to see all of the grades. If a student needs help, it is the task of the school pedagogic help person, not any of the teachers. If there's anything that could be seen from all the grades, the help must be coming from that same person at first. Even then, the teacher has no knowledge of the happenings in other classes, and should only be notified of trouble and help in his or her own class.


And by the way, one thing I do not do is treat students differently (in a negative sense) based upon how they perform in other classes. Some teachers may, but I don't do that.
Even commenting out loud about it isn't done, not to mention preferential treatment.


The knowledge of the students performance in other classes is strictly for the purspose of trying to find out how to help the student. You don't even seek out that information unless you have a student that needs help.
And isn't knowing who needs help the job of the pedagogic help person? You might consider it a nice thing to do, but from here it sounds very intrusive.


What exactly did I say that would even make you think that? I said nothing personal toward you. Most of what I've said here is about my philosophy on this question. There is no need to misinterpret what I'm saying. What I say is what I mean.
I believed you assumed because of the side I am defending.


Hmm... perhaps you could point to where I implied "hopeless idiots". Don't put words in my mouth. Again I say what I mean.
I assumed you were of the condescending attitude I've observed many (quite a few and does not imply an absolute) times over.


I didn't say "hopeless idiots", so you can be sure that is not what I meant.
That was the general impression I got. I might have been wrong.


What I have said is that the time is there if the students plan ahead. When a student has two months to work on a project and hasn't started it until the last week it is due .... its a bit ridiculous to blame the teacher about some test the student has the same day the paper is due. And that doesn't mean the student is a hopeless idiot. It means the student needs to learn how to budget time or commit to doing the work at all if the student rarely turns in work.
What you seem to forget is that work that isn't well bounded (i.e. different from do exercices 1,3,4,6,7... in the book) is often extremely difficult if not impossible, and makes time planification a hit or miss exercise in futility.


You seem to think there are huge problems. What are your solutions?
I don't claim to have all the answers (or any answers at all), I am merely pointing out failures of the current system. The only thing I can vouch for is my own personal preference, which wouldn't solve anything except if the entire student population was me.


In Texas we have a "no pass-no play" rule, so you might learn about a student failing other classes when you heard that he/she was barred from playing.I don't understand? no pass no play?


This has ventured slightly off topic (or maybe not). The fact is, school is about priorities. It is up to the student to manage his time and keep pace with the progression of the semester. If a student cannot or will not do so, then maybe his time would be better spent elsewhere.
We're precisely trying to get away from that "play along or get out" unconstructive attitude.


Teachers are not required to schedule assignments and exams around the whims of individual students, although there may certainly be some flexibility.
Because, of course, all of the student's schedule problems are frivolous.


Midterms occur during the middle of the semester, and final exams are at the end. This should hardly be a surprise. With more than one class, there are bound to be conflicts, and learning such things as how to manage your time and your life are parts of the overall learning process.
Part, maybe. A small part, nothing more. The acquisition of knowledge should not at any point be hindered by deficient scheduling.

I'm beginning to see here that:
1-We are fighting on personal experiences and opinions, which is obviously pointless.
2-We obviously have cultural differences on the way teaching is handled in our different countries.
3-We have an entirely different perception of the point of school. I perceive it as strict acquisition of knowledge and grades, you obviously see it as something else (What Kaptain K said I think).
4-We are obviously talking about different schools. I am not talking at all about high school. ( I think I may be adjusting )
5-My main language is not english (I'm obviously understanding things you did not mean and I'm not very good at writing).

Until we get these resolved there's no point in going on.

kilopi
2003-Oct-27, 04:22 PM
I'm beginning to see here that:

::snip 1 through 4::

5-My main language is not english (I'm obviously understanding things you did not mean and I'm not very good at writing).

Until we get these resolved there's no point in going on.
How are you planning on resolving number five? :)

Xbalanque
2003-Oct-27, 05:01 PM
2-We obviously have cultural differences on the way teaching is handled in our different countries.
I can certainly agree with you there. Different cultures will have different structures and expectations for the process of teaching and learning. I am working under the assumption of the university environment of the United States, whereas your situation (I do not know the specifics) is different. Which leads us to the next point.



3-We have an entirely different perception of the point of school. I perceive it as strict acquisition of knowledge and grades, you obviously see it as something else (What Kaptain K said I think).

I admit I do not know how universities function in other countries, but I doubt that their goals are the "strict acquisition of knowledge and grades." I suspect I am correct, because, as this is your stated goal, your previous posts appear to indicate you have severe philosophical differences with your learning environment. Strangely enough, if universities were only about acquiring knowledge and being tested on that knowledge, you would be even more at odds, because their scheduling and requirements would still be absolute and inflexible. In other words, if you could not learn the material in time and be tested on it, they would have no use for you. The university is not going to hold your hand and wait patiently until you have decided you've learned the material and are ready to be tested.

informant
2003-Oct-27, 05:12 PM
There was a brief story on the news about plagiarizing. It seems that it has become quite popular for high school and college student to "cut and paste" reports and not giving proper credit. They said that of the people poled 38% thought that cutting and pasting was trivial, no big deal and was not plaerizing.
It would be good to know which kinds of people were polled. If they polled students, I'm not surprised by the answers. If they polled teachers, I would expect different results.

I don't think there's any question that cut-and-pasting is plagiarizing. If it's for a school assignment, I would imagine that from a legal point of view it's a harmless kind of plagiarism.

From an educational point of view, however, it's regrettable. Not so much because the students aren't being honest, but because they aren't learning what they were supposed to learn. Organizing your thoughts and putting them in paper is a useful skill that you should acquire in school, and it takes practice to develop.

kilopi
2003-Oct-27, 05:18 PM
I don't think there's any question that cut-and-pasting is plagiarizing.
What about this question (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=159712#159712)?

It's not the cut-and-pasting that is plagiarizing--it depends upon what you cut and where you paste, and how.

Musashi
2003-Oct-27, 05:20 PM
What about this question (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=159712#159712)?

Fixed link.

informant
2003-Oct-27, 05:21 PM
I had a student last year that even with those expectations cut and pasted. It was pretty funny actually. You'd have a few fluent sounding sentences with a sprinkling of big words the student didn't even know the meaning of. Then a paragraph of the students own writing with grammar and spelling mistakes. It looked like a paper written by two people.
That's the fun part of plagiarism for teachers, of course. :D

Musashi
2003-Oct-27, 05:21 PM
I think we are talking about cut-n-paste in academic papers, not on a forum such as this.

kilopi
2003-Oct-27, 05:26 PM
So am I, though.

informant
2003-Oct-27, 05:29 PM
And without attribution:


It seems that it has become quite popular for high school and college student to "cut and paste" reports and not giving proper credit.

Xbalanque
2003-Oct-27, 05:40 PM
Because, of course, all of the student's schedule problems are frivolous.

They are. The professor must devise a lecture plan and structure the course in such a way that the material can be presented in the limited timeframe of the semester. Your goal is you don't want more than one assignment due at the same time. Now multiply that by 15, 25, 100, or however many students there are in the class, and then multiply that by the number of courses offered by the university. How could any learning possibly be accomplished if every student had a voice in when the deadlines were, and when the exams were given?

pmcolt
2003-Oct-27, 05:54 PM
This must vary greatly among professors and schools. In my experience, if you go to the professor with a legitimate scheduling conflict (multiple projects due on the same day, testing in other classes, etc.), he will likely grant an extension. (I've even had humanities instructors who would push back due dates for papers for no apparent reason.)

Of course, except for major group projects, most big assignments I've had tend to be either programming projects or papers. Most can be banged out in one night or one afternoon, so if you have overlapping due dates, you can always get one done early. If you don't get it done, chalk it up to bad time management on your part.

kilopi
2003-Oct-27, 06:38 PM
And without attribution:


It seems that it has become quite popular for high school and college student to "cut and paste" reports and not giving proper credit.
Are you accusing NASA Fan of plagiarizing? :)

informant
2003-Oct-27, 06:44 PM
Not at all. Why do you ask? :)

kilopi
2003-Oct-27, 06:51 PM
What is it that is without attribution?

When I went back to the post that you quoted, I noticed that it referred to an article, and described its contents, but there was no attribution to the article.

informant
2003-Oct-27, 07:01 PM
Yes, I quoted NASA Fan's OP (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=159465#159465).

My reply (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=160038#160038), which got a bit mixed up with other posts, was intended as a follow-up to this post (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=160030#160030) by Musashi.

kilopi
2003-Oct-27, 07:09 PM
Ah, I get it.

Still, it is not cut-and-pasting that is the problem--it is the leaving-off of attribution. Cutting and pasting make make it easier to plagiarize, but it is not plagiarism in and of itself.

informant
2003-Oct-27, 07:47 PM
...and although NASA Fan mentioned the lack of attribution in his OP, I did not mention it in my first reply (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=160024#160024). Point taken.

dgruss23
2003-Oct-27, 09:08 PM
Mr.X: I'm beginning to see here that:
1-We are fighting on personal experiences and opinions, which is obviously pointless.

Certainly we have had different experiences. Actually, I've been thinking about this topic for quite a few years. I thought last years project was the best approach I'd tried to minimize opportunities to plagarize and at the same time maximize the worth of the project. That's why I hope people of all views will keep talking. There is no one fix to the problem, but certainly the experiences of others can be useful in trying to figure out solutions.


2-We obviously have cultural differences on the way teaching is handled in our different countries.

That may very well be another reason for the differences in philosophy. Cultural differences can make it hard to find common ground. Actually, I would never have guessed that English is not your primary language.


3-We have an entirely different perception of the point of school. I perceive it as strict acquisition of knowledge and grades, you obviously see it as something else (What Kaptain K said I think).

Grades ought to reflect the level of a students aquisition of knowledge. But part of a good education ought to be a certain amount of skill development too. That said, I think one of the biggest mistakes we've made in this country is the push to emphasize "thinking skills" beyond what is realistic. How can a student be expected to "think" about an issue when they know nothing about it? Knowledge must be taught (and learned) and then with that knowledge students can begin to develop better reasoning skills.

NASA Fan
2003-Oct-28, 02:25 AM
By now I do not remember if they said who they polled. I believe that it was students polled.

I think that it was on NBC's local 10 O'Cock news.

Edited to add:

I can't say for sure if that was the correct time or channel.

kilopi
2003-Oct-28, 02:26 AM
Thanks, informant. I was actually responding to the poll more than anything else, rather than the OP.

decarmony
2003-Oct-28, 02:43 AM
I voted no,cutting and pasting is not plagiarizing in itself. Doing so without stating the source can go either way. If I cut and paste the theory of relativity, no one would think I was trying to take credit for it. It"s like the eight ball being strait in two inches from the pocket, no one calls a foul when I don"t call the pocket. If the person is really trying to take credit for anothers work then it"s plagiarism.

Pinemarten
2003-Oct-28, 03:13 AM
Both of the main signatures i use are my own creations.

If those mountain-dwelling-furry-critters ever get lawyers, I'm in trouble. :wink:

Mr. X
2003-Oct-28, 03:57 AM
How are you planning on resolving number five? :)
I don't know. I just don't know. **cries** :P


It"s like the eight ball being strait in two inches from the pocket, no one calls a foul when I don"t call the pocket.
LoL! What the hell does that mean! :lol:

Other than that I don't know what to say. Maybe I'll say nothing else for the time being, I've typed enough in this thread already.