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Glom
2003-Oct-29, 05:20 PM
I went to Waterstones in Birmingham City Centre today and in the astronomy section, what should I see lying next to the Apollo books? Dark f*****g Moon!!

On the plus side, I saw Chris Eubank. I was casually looking at books when he strolled past with his kids.

Actually, the science section was pretty good. It was bigger than most. Mind you, the New Age section was on the other side of the store (a good thing) so I didn't see it (also a good thing) so can't compare the two sizes.

R.A.F.
2003-Oct-29, 07:02 PM
Yeah...I guess it happens all around the World. Sad, really. The response I usually get, when I tell them that "dark moon" IS NOT science..."They tell us where to put the books". Well they are stupid!


On the plus side, I saw Chris Eubank.

I hope that this isn't too "dumb" a question...but WHO is Chris Eubank?

ToSeek
2003-Oct-29, 07:35 PM
Yeah...I guess it happens all around the World. Sad, really. The response I usually get, when I tell them that "dark moon" IS NOT science..."They tell us where to put the books". Well they are stupid!


On the plus side, I saw Chris Eubank.

I hope that this isn't too "dumb" a question...but WHO is Chris Eubank?

An "outrageous" British boxer, evidently. (http://www.chriseubank.net/)

Glom
2003-Oct-29, 08:04 PM
with a speech impediment

Eroica
2003-Oct-29, 09:16 PM
who lost his title to an Irishman!

Madcat
2003-Oct-30, 12:31 AM
Yay! :)

The Supreme Canuck
2003-Oct-30, 02:47 AM
You get a science section? My (rather large) book store has a science shelf. And it has a New Age section. Awful. :(

NASA Fan
2003-Oct-30, 05:54 AM
R.A.F. Thanks for asking, I did not know either.

spfrss
2003-Oct-30, 07:54 AM
I feel sorry to say this crap has been translated in Italian too...

Saw it in a good library in Milan...

I took the copies and put'em behind some books by Harold Robbins,
they've the same quality, I think

Live long and prosper

Mauro :)

Eroica
2003-Oct-30, 08:07 AM
I took the copies and put'em behind some books by Harold Robbins, they've the same quality, I think
Hey! I liked The Carpetbaggers.

captain swoop
2003-Oct-30, 08:50 AM
who lost his title to an Irishman!


But defended his World Middleweight title a record number of times before he was defeated.

Mellow
2003-Oct-30, 01:38 PM
.... yes but is was a poor title, the WBO if I'm correct. And lets be honest, he fought quite a lot of dross....

captain swoop
2003-Oct-30, 01:56 PM
.... yes but is was a poor title, the WBO if I'm correct. And lets be honest, he fought quite a lot of dross....

How many rounds would you give him?

sts60
2003-Oct-30, 02:00 PM
How much will you pay me? He has to catch me first... :D

Jim
2003-Oct-30, 03:41 PM
I took the copies and put'em behind some books by Harold Robbins, they've the same quality, I think

You besmirch Mr. Robbins. His books may be pablum, but they attempt to have a plot, do try to make some sense, and are admittedly fiction.

Now, if you placed them with the L. Ron Hubbard stuff...

captain swoop
2003-Oct-30, 03:54 PM
I took the copies and put'em behind some books by Harold Robbins, they've the same quality, I think

You besmirch Mr. Robbins. His books may be pablum, but they attempt to have a plot, do try to make some sense, and are admittedly fiction.




Ha! Robbins!

anu
2003-Oct-30, 05:16 PM
If that made you mad, Glom, then you need to take a seat and count slowly to ten before reading the rest of this........I took a group of Coventry sixth-formers to the Science museum in London on Tuesday, to see the IMAX film 'Space Station 3-D' and the Apollo 10 CM (Charlie brown). Imagine my shock when browsing in the bookshop on seeing yet another David Percy classic 'Two Thirds...A History of our Galaxy'. I had a gander through it and nearly collapsed in hysterics. One of my students, on having a quick glance, wondered what planet the author was on....has anyone else read it???? Completely raving hatstand, if you ask me!

Glom
2003-Oct-30, 05:40 PM
David Percy is a nutjob
He's drunk all day on Old Bob

What was in it?

Andrew
2003-Oct-30, 06:52 PM
A copy of the book Dark Moon appears in the astronomy section of my local Waterstones as well. Next time I'm in the shop, I'm going to take the book and place it in the Science-Fiction/Fantasy section.

Graham2001
2003-Oct-31, 11:42 AM
Yeah...I guess it happens all around the World. Sad, really. The response I usually get, when I tell them that "dark moon" IS NOT science..."They tell us where to put the books". Well they are stupid!

This sounds very familiar, I had a similar argument over the placement of "Mutant Message Downunder(1)" :evil: amongst the Australian History books in my local Angus & Robertson.

Worse I had to later make a complaint to my local library when they made the same mistake.

Graham

(1) A really bad 'New Age' book about Aboriginals that was written by an American who had never visited Australia.

The Shade
2003-Oct-31, 04:30 PM
You get a science section? My (rather large) book store has a science shelf. And it has a New Age section. Awful. :(

If you're talking about Chapters, you definitely need to make a complaint. The one where I live does have a specific section for astronomy. I think there is a new age section somewhere, but since it's nowhere near the astronomy books, I've never noticed it.

jscotti
2003-Nov-01, 12:26 AM
A copy of the book Dark Moon appears in the astronomy section of my local Waterstones as well. Next time I'm in the shop, I'm going to take the book and place it in the Science-Fiction/Fantasy section.

Why not print out a short disclaimer to stick in the book (just a loose sheet of paper, nothing that would deface the book, regardless of what it deserves) that would briefly describe what nonsense the book is filled with and would point the reader to some of the best URLs that debunk the claims the reader will find in the book.

Jim.

The Supreme Canuck
2003-Nov-01, 04:23 AM
You get a science section? My (rather large) book store has a science shelf. And it has a New Age section. Awful. :(

If you're talking about Chapters, you definitely need to make a complaint. The one where I live does have a specific section for astronomy. I think there is a new age section somewhere, but since it's nowhere near the astronomy books, I've never noticed it.

Yep, Chapters. I think that I may complain. At least they have good books even if there are not many.

ocasey3
2003-Nov-01, 02:32 PM
I used to work for Borders Books and the sad fact is that metaphysics books sell far better than physics books. And since retail operations are about sales they of course will make sure to have more of the product that moves than products that sit on the shelf.

Science is intimidating to a lot of people because they think the concepts are either too hard to understand or just not important to their daily lives. But it seems that paranormal books are written for the common denominator and for those that really don't want to know facts.

If you do feel that a book should be categorized differently in a store please do contact the head offices or see if a bookseller can pass the information along. Borders was pretty good about these things and we helped to correct errors all the time. It may not work but it is worth a try.

Sister Ray
2003-Nov-01, 07:05 PM
I remember a fight I had with a librarian in my high school, about six years ago or so. I had been reading up on hoaxes, including the 70's claim from some guy that he cloned a person. I found a copy of his book, took it up to the librarian, and demanded it be placed in the fiction section. Calamity for all.

At all the bookstores I visit (a lot, including small used ones and big chain ones) have a science section. They usually also have a new age section, but I usually just avoid it. Actually, there is one New Age bookstore by my local Best Buy. I went inside it (I knew they sold fantasy novels, and I was looking for a new edition of one by a favorite author) and found out they had a science section. What was surreal about it was it was all real science. I spotted a bunch of books I had read there, including one on superstring theory! Of course, it was next to some godawful spiritual section with psychics and whatnot. And anyway, I didn't find the book I wanted, and the whole place reeked of inscence.

man on the moon
2003-Nov-02, 02:52 AM
part of the reason the meta and psuedo books sell well may be the mystery around them. we get quite a bit of regular normal good science in school. i think myself that people like to buy the other books because they "reveal" or "let them in" on a secret new something or other. this can be quite seductive, and apperantley is quite succesful as well.

Glom
2003-Nov-05, 05:23 PM
I went back to Waterstones today and moved the two copies of Dark Moon downstairs to the paranormal section, the same section as the David Icke stuff. I also did the same thing to a copy I saw in the science section of the Waterstones next to the Bullring.

I do believe that the science sections of these bookshops are larger than the new age sections.

R.A.F.
2003-Nov-05, 06:13 PM
I went back to Waterstones today and moved the two copies of Dark Moon...

I hate to tell you this, Glom, but if Waterstones is anything like Barnes and Noble, the employees will just end up moving them back! That's what has been happening to me...it's almost become a game. I'll put pseudo-science books in the new-age section, and when I return I'll find them back in the science section. I've done this like 3 times now. Talk about exasperating!!!

JayUtah
2003-Nov-05, 06:35 PM
I spoke to a clerk about this. The conglomerates use centralized databases and the categorizations are set there by the corporate office.

Where possible, U.S. Library of Congress categorizations apply. Dark Moon claims to have CIP records for LC cataloguing, but the LC catalogue contains no references to the book or its authors. Since CIP information is usually printed directly on the book's title page (and is absent in Dark Moon, even in the U.S. edition), I doubt the veracity of the cataloguing claim.

R.A.F.
2003-Nov-05, 06:45 PM
Dark Moon claims to have CIP records for LC cataloguing, but the LC catalogue contains no references to the book or its authors.

Are you saying that the "authors" of Dark Moon want their book to be listed as science, and placed in the science section?

JayUtah
2003-Nov-05, 06:53 PM
No, I'm saying that the U.S. agents of the U.K. publishers claim to have submitted Dark Moon to the Library of Congress for cataloguing, which by nature creates for it a classification or categorization. There is no evidence that this has actually been done. Had it been done, the large commercial booksellers would have been able to use this classification to assist them in correctly locating it in their bookstores. Since this information is not available to them, the booksellers will have to decide on their own where to keep it. LC cataloguers are very good about getting books in the right categories. Corporate cataloguers are not -- motivated as often by marketing as by taxonomy.

I'm sure Bennett and Percy would be delighted if the Library of Congress were to consider their book a work of science or scholarship. Certainly some U.S. booksellers see it that way.

Glom
2003-Nov-05, 07:08 PM
I did feel dirty touching the book. You know they want us to shell out 17 for it? I took a brief look inside. I saw a loads of rhetorical questions and references to a crop circle.

JayUtah
2003-Nov-05, 09:03 PM
Except that Dark Moon's questions are not rhetorical. The authors use them to dodge responsibility for the conclusion to which they have led their reader. A rhetorical question demands no answer nor requires one in order to make its point; the answer is tacitly agreed to by author and reader.

The questions in Dark Moon, however, are the ones that have to be answered in order to make the argument. For example, the book asks, "Why did WvB [Wernher von Braun] resign from a program in 1972 that apparently was achieving his lifelong aim?" (p. 120 sidebar, emphasis in original) It is natural for an historian to wonder what von Braun's motivations may have been. But it is also the responsibility of that historian to discover the motivation, not merely to ask the question. Yes, why did Von Braun leave NASA? Was there a legitimate reason? Was it the reason that the authors imply in the text?

Obviously Bennett and Percy have carefully led us to the conclusion that Von Braun was not satisfied with NASA. But by simply dropping the innuendo, they can escape responsibility for actually having concluded he left NASA for any particular reason. This is consummate intellectual dishonesty. Conspiracy theorists are content merely to "raise questions," as if this means something. They are unwilling or unable to do the work required to answer any questions. It is a lazy approach to scholarship.

Glom
2003-Nov-05, 09:47 PM
Conspiracy theorists are content merely to "raise questions," as if this means something.

This is probably why we regard conspiracists even being heard as a threat. Their style of innuendo will mean their objective gets carried all too easily.

Overall, it goes like this,

"Was Apollo faked? Why are the stars missing from the photos? Why is the flag waving? Why are there no photo of Armstrong on the moon? What about the radiation?"

It shows why it takes so much longer to debunk. We have to answer those questions.

JayUtah
2003-Nov-05, 10:05 PM
Those are the techniques by which the conspiracists shift the burden of proof. They ask questions, and it's natural for a reader to expect the opponent to answer them.

Here's how I respond.

Conspiracist: "Was Apollo faked?"
Jay: "Was Apollo faked?"

Conspiracist: "Why are the stars missing from the photos?"
Jay: "Why do you think the stars are missing from the photos?"

Conspiracist: "Why is the flag waving?"
Jay: "Why do you think the flag is waving?"

Conspiracist: "Why are there no photos of Armstrong on the moon?"
Jay (recognizing the complex question): "Why do you say there are no photos of Armstrong on the moon?"

Conspiracist: "What about the radiation?"
Jay: "What about the radiation?"

Conspiracy theorists expect you to respond to their questions by accepting a burden of proof to show that Apollo was authentic. They want your tacit agreement to the notion that the only way to disprove their conspiracy theory is to prove authenticity. But most conspiracists are completely unfamiliar with the concept of refutation. They don't understand that a poorly supported theory fails whether or not some other theory succeeds.

Mellow
2003-Nov-06, 02:31 PM
Jay,

I may print that and laminate it.

marvellous

JayUtah
2003-Nov-06, 02:47 PM
Oh, goody; I'm responsible for more cubicle candy.

Just for the record, von Braun did leave NASA in 1972 because he was unsatisfied -- not with Apollo, which he felt was an astounding success, but with the lack of an aggressive plan for future space exploration after Apollo. He saw the budget cuts and read the handwriting on the wall. It took me about two hours to ascertain the reason for von Braun's departure. (I asked Ed Mitchell, who remained friends with von Braun.)

Mellow
2003-Nov-06, 03:10 PM
Jay,

no, not cubicle candy, wallet candy. I have a couple of friends who are cynics.... about everything.

It's a good general tactic to use against their tactic of questioning everything.

2003-Nov-06, 03:41 PM
Those are the techniques by which the conspiracists Conspiracist: "What about the radiation?"
Jay: "What about the radiation?"

Conspiracy theorists expect you to respond to their questions by accepting a burden of proof to show that Apollo was authentic. They want your tacit agreement to the notion that the only way to disprove their conspiracy theory is to prove authenticity. But most conspiracists are completely unfamiliar with the concept of refutation. They don't understand that a poorly supported theory fails whether or not some other theory succeeds.
---------------------------------------
I? measure Radiation by COUNTs
I do not COunt the recent {link later}(MAYBE)
solar eruption as "AN EVENT"
==================================
I count this as a "NON EVENT" however.. 7:40AM PST
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::
7:43 some one entered the room .. Link follows (um to NON EVENT)
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=9049

2003-Nov-07, 04:58 PM
I spoke to a clerk about this. The conglomerates use centralized databases and the categorizations are set there by the corporate office.

Where possible, U.S. Library of Congress categorizations apply. Dark Moon claims to have CIP records for LC cataloguing, but the LC catalogue contains no references to the book or its authors. Since CIP information is usually printed directly on the book's title page (and is absent in Dark Moon, even in the U.S. edition), I doubt the veracity of the cataloguing claim.