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Robert Tulip
2008-Nov-15, 02:41 AM
Recognising baut informative replies (http://www.bautforum.com/questions-answers/73180-nibaru-planet-x.html#post1225294), I have not been able to find a good diagram showing the events of 2012.

It seems to me there are three intersecting vectors: the ecliptic, the solstice hemisphere line orthogonal to the celestial equator, and the stars themselves represented by the position of the centre of the galaxy.

I would be interested to know

1. Is this geometry accurate?
2. If so, is a diagram available showing the path from the present position of the galactic centre to its meeting with the ecliptic and the celestial hemisphere line at the solstice point?
3. Is the date 21 December 2012 when the galaxy moves relative to earth into a different hemisphere?

Thank you.

Robert Tulip

grant hutchison
2008-Nov-15, 02:50 AM
The "events" of 2012 are essentially fantasy. There is no special alignment in that year.

Grant Hutchison

Veeger
2008-Nov-15, 03:07 AM
Is this what you mean? (http://www.bautforum.com/conspiracy-theories/79817-confused-about-2012-yes-another-one.html#post1340215)

Robert Tulip
2008-Nov-15, 03:29 AM
Is this what you mean? (http://www.bautforum.com/conspiracy-theories/79817-confused-about-2012-yes-another-one.html#post1340215)Thanks Veeger. I read that thread and found this great picture of the meeting of the ecliptic and the solsticial meridian (http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q224/voyager907/SumAstro/GalCross-2012-12-21-10h29m.jpg). But, isn't the 2012 issue that the point of the galactic centre will then be at the cross hatch where the sun is in this picture? I am sorry I don't have access to astronomical software (will look at http://www.stargazing.net/astropc/ ). I am wondering, if you took that picture in 2008 and again in 2012, and added to it the point of the galactic centre, would you see what the hoo-hah is about?

grant hutchison
2008-Nov-15, 03:39 AM
... if you took that picture in 2008 and again in 2012, and added to it the point of the galactic centre, would you see what the hoo-hah is about?You wouldn't. The galactic centre doesn't coincide with the ecliptic / galactic plane crossing point. The hoo-hah is inexplicable.

Grant Hutchison

Hornblower
2008-Nov-15, 03:41 AM
If I am not mistaken, the December solstice point is very close to the galactic plane, and the precession of Earth's spin axis will carry that point across the plane sometime in the year 2012. Thus the solstice that year will be the first one in the other galactic hemisphere.

I don't expect one iota of physical consequence. A nice exercise in geometry, nothing more.

grant hutchison
2008-Nov-15, 03:57 AM
If I am not mistaken, the December solstice point is very close to the galactic plane, and the precession of Earth's spin axis will carry that point across the plane sometime in the year 2012. Thus the solstice that year will be the first one in the other galactic hemisphere.In fact, that alignment happened more than ten years ago, in May 1998. Jean Meeus reported it in his Mathematical Astronomy Morsels (Chapter 48), but you can check it with any decent planetarium software.

Grant Hutchison

astromark
2008-Nov-15, 04:08 AM
You seem to be looking for something that is not to be found. Those lines on that image mean nothing. they are not there. It was simply the easy method of understanding the geometry and movement of the components of this galaxy. As Earth trolls around the sun. Our view of the sky changes. We find the galactic center some times obscured by the sun. Thats the only significance to this annual event.

Robert Tulip
2008-Nov-15, 10:14 AM
Well, I am disappointed that the grant unification of the cosmos has been exaggerated. I was imagining it like the hydrogen-deuterium-carbon cycle, with the two hydrogen atoms in star deuterium equating to the ecliptic and the meridian, and the third atom making carbon equating to the movement of the galactic core across the galactic plane. Missed it by that much.


You wouldn't. The galactic centre doesn't coincide with the ecliptic / galactic plane crossing point. The hoo-hah is inexplicable. Grant HutchisonThanks Grant – so if you added the galactic centre to the 2012-12-21 picture it would not be right behind the sun?

If I am not mistaken, the December solstice point is very close to the galactic plane, and the precession of Earth's spin axis will carry that point across the plane sometime in the year 2012. Thus the solstice that year will be the first one in the other galactic hemisphere. I don't expect one iota of physical consequence. A nice exercise in geometry, nothing more.
Thanks Hornblower. It seems the close alignment between the solstice meridian and the galactic plane may have led some to confuse them with each other. For example, on this picture of 2012 (http://thewriteguy.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/2012__alignment1.jpg), is it right that the diagonal line marked ‘galactic equator’ is close but not the same as the solstice meridian?

In fact, that alignment happened more than ten years ago, in May 1998. Jean Meeus reported it in his Mathematical Astronomy Morsels (Chapter 48), but you can check it with any decent planetarium software.Grant HutchisonThanks again Grant, so this part of the theory, ie galactic core moving galactic planar hemispheres as viewed from earth, is incorrect. Yet, as I understand it in line with Hornblower’s comment, the conjunction between the solstice and the galactic core does occur in 2012, does it not?

You seem to be looking for something that is not to be found. Those lines on that image mean nothing. they are not there. It was simply the easy method of understanding the geometry and movement of the components of this galaxy. As Earth trolls around the sun. Our view of the sky changes. We find the galactic center some times obscured by the sun. Thats the only significance to this annual event.Astromark, no I am not looking for something that is not to be found. I don’t find your comment ‘those lines are not there’ easy to understand. Thank you for the lesson in existential philosophy, but the lines are there in the picture so presumably they reflect an astronomical reality? Lines such as the ecliptic and the meridian indicate how our earth stands in relation to the cosmos. Does not this indicate they are really there?

I think the significance of this event is that the luni-solar 25765 year long precession of earth’s equinox means the December solstice will precess past the galactic core in 2012. It is true that the movement of the galactic core against the galactic equator has a roughly similar cycle? If so, a fifteen year gap between the two events is fairly close.

Hornblower
2008-Nov-15, 11:20 AM
In fact, that alignment happened more than ten years ago, in May 1998. Jean Meeus reported it in his Mathematical Astronomy Morsels (Chapter 48), but you can check it with any decent planetarium software.

Grant Hutchison
Apparently I was mistaken. Probably from scanning a lot of 2012 drivel for my own amusement.

Hornblower
2008-Nov-15, 12:41 PM
Well, I am disappointed that the grant unification of the cosmos has been exaggerated. I was imagining it like the hydrogen-deuterium-carbon cycle, with the two hydrogen atoms in star deuterium equating to the ecliptic and the meridian, and the third atom making carbon equating to the movement of the galactic core across the galactic plane. Missed it by that much.
I see what looks like a vivid imagination going off on flights of fancy with contrived attempts at analogies.


Thanks Grant – so if you added the galactic centre to the 2012-12-21 picture it would not be right behind the sun?
Not even close. The galactic center is some 5 degrees from that intersection. See my remarks further down the page.


Thanks Hornblower. It seems the close alignment between the solstice meridian and the galactic plane may have led some to confuse them with each other. For example, on this picture of 2012 (http://thewriteguy.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/2012__alignment1.jpg), is it right that the diagonal line marked ‘galactic equator’ is close but not the same as the solstice meridian?

Not even close. The solstice meridian would be straight north and south, with the galactic equator inclined about 27 degrees counterclockwise.


Thanks again Grant, so this part of the theory, ie galactic core moving galactic planar hemispheres as viewed from earth, is incorrect. Yet, as I understand it in line with Hornblower’s comment, the conjunction between the solstice and the galactic core does occur in 2012, does it not?

Once again, not even close as I interpret it. First, let me remind everyone that I stand corrected by Jan Meeus's finding that the solstice crossed the plane in 1998. That picture shows the 2012 sun slightly to the right of the galactic plane. I don't know whether or not that was intentional, but it is in good agreement with Meeus.

As for conjunction with the core, I would interpret that as the minimum separation of the solstice point and the core, which is some 5 degrees south-southwest of the current solstice point. That will occur roughly two centuries from now. See this link for the coordinates of the core.
http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/312058


Astromark, no I am not looking for something that is not to be found. I don’t find your comment ‘those lines are not there’ easy to understand. Thank you for the lesson in existential philosophy, but the lines are there in the picture so presumably they reflect an astronomical reality? Lines such as the ecliptic and the meridian indicate how our earth stands in relation to the cosmos. Does not this indicate they are really there?

I think the significance of this event is that the luni-solar 25765 year long precession of earth’s equinox means the December solstice will precess past the galactic core in 2012. It is true that the movement of the galactic core against the galactic equator has a roughly similar cycle?
What cycle are you referring to?

If so, a fifteen year gap between the two events is fairly close.

astromark
2008-Nov-15, 01:07 PM
Robert Tulip ., I said ..." It was simply the easy method of understanding the geometry and movement of the components of this galaxy. As Earth trolls around the sun. Our view of the sky changes. We find the galactic center some times obscured by the sun. Thats the only significance to this annual event." and from your comments I need to explain myself further. Yes on that wonderful image of this galaxy they have emplace the lines of inclination and declination. Yes the solar system does cross the galactic plain. Yes it has happened before., and will again. and, Yes the view of the galactic core will and is often obscured by the sun. That is not an alignment of any significance, ( its only visible in daylight. ) and would pass un-noticed but for a group of crazed doomsday naysayers.... We have no knowledge of any object or fanominum that places us at any greater risk than is the normal. I can tell you that If we were to find information that leads us down this road and or in any way endangered humanity you will read it here.

grant hutchison
2008-Nov-15, 01:21 PM
Thanks Grant – so if you added the galactic centre to the 2012-12-21 picture it would not be right behind the sun?It would not.


Thanks again Grant, so this part of the theory, ie galactic core moving galactic planar hemispheres as viewed from earth, is incorrect.There is no "theory". People who propound this story are simply mistaken, misled or lying.


Yet, as I understand it in line with Hornblower’s comment, the conjunction between the solstice and the galactic core does occur in 2012, does it not?You've misunderstood Hornblower. See his comments above. The galactic core is some distance from the solstice point at present, and there will be nothing special about their relative positions in 2012.

Grant Hutchison

Robert Tulip
2008-Nov-15, 07:57 PM
Many thanks all. I have not studied this issue in depth and am taking the opportunity to ask what of the claims about 2012 might be true. It seems the fact that the solstice point will be in front of the milky way in 2012 has been extrapolated into false claims in some quarters. A main proponent of 2012 Mayan predictions, John Major Jenkins, has what looks to be an accurate explanation here (http://www.alignment2012.com/whatisGA.htm).

I must apologise, my question on the crossing of the galactic plane was answered previously by Grant Hutchison, but in looking at different sources I forgot Grant's answer. At http://www.bautforum.com/questions-answers/80827-solar-system-angle-galaxy.html#post1357082 Grant said "The sun is north of the galactic plane at present, and moving farther from it. The period is about 65 million years. The amplitude is about 200 light-years either side of the galactic plane." To which Veeger responded "Thanks for that Grant. Your figures confirm my own research and strikes a body-blow to the 2012 galactic plane crossing, scare-mongers." My last post confused this 65 million year cycle with the 26000 year cycle of precession. Is this 65 million year cycle the one which crossed the plane in 1998?

Robert Tulip

kleindoofy
2008-Nov-15, 09:38 PM
... the 2012 issue ...
The "2012 issue" is that a bunch of woo-woos are spewing loads of ** which would be worthy of an imaginative, hyperactive 6-year-old on steroids.

What will happen in 2012? Well, go back to the year you were born and use all of the years since then as examples for 2012.

Anybody who makes wild, overstrung, esoteric predictions for 2012 is going to look like a damn fool when that year comes and goes without mentionable occasion, just like any other year.

So, I'm going to go listen to my "Hair" soundtrack and dream about the 60's:


"When the moon is in the seventh house and Jupiter aligns with Mars, then peace will guide the planets and love will steer the stars. This is the dawning of the age of Aquarius ..."

;)

grant hutchison
2008-Nov-15, 09:55 PM
My last post confused this 65 million year cycle with the 26000 year cycle of precession. Is this 65 million year cycle the one which crossed the plane in 1998?No, the solstice points move along the ecliptic with the 25,800-year precession cycle.
The ~65-million-year oscillation is a movement of the sun north and south within the galactic disc. It can be modelled with reference to a notional "galactic plane", which aligns approximately with the galactic coordinate system. We passed through it from galactic south to north more than a million years ago.

Grant Hutchison

mugaliens
2008-Nov-16, 12:39 AM
I have it on good authority that in 2012, the Midwestern Corn Group will suffer bankruptcy, but...

Or maybe it was the South African Grass Growers Association?

I can't remember which - I must have been tired. Oh well.

Veeger
2008-Nov-16, 01:13 AM
Many thanks all. I have not studied this issue in depth and am taking the opportunity to ask what of the claims about 2012 might be true. It seems the fact that the solstice point will be in front of the milky way in 2012 has been extrapolated into false claims in some quarters. A main proponent of 2012 Mayan predictions, John Major Jenkins, has what looks to be an accurate explanation here (http://www.alignment2012.com/whatisGA.htm).
...
Robert Tulip

I think, since Jenkins was one of the earlier authors making a link between Mayan "end of the age" sensationalism and the galactic alignment (his original book "Galactic Alignment" was published in 2002 and some essays predate that), many have mistaken his mention of the precessional movement across the galactic plane with a physical movement across the plane. I have yet to see where Jenkins makes the claim, the shift is physical. As a first impression I would consider Jenkins another sensationalist, but I confess, I have never read any of his books; only bits and pieces of his website. He like many of these "researchers" / authors believe ancient people were aware of and in some case had detailed knowledge of lunisolar precession.

Nicolas
2008-Nov-16, 11:59 AM
Why do people worry about the Mayan calendar "predictions"? Our calender "predicts" The End at 31 december of every single year, and nobody panics about that. (ok, except when you forgot to buy presents...)

01101001
2008-Nov-16, 02:43 PM
I have not studied this issue in depth and am taking the opportunity to ask what of the claims about 2012 might be true.

I have nothing to say.

I just wanted to stake out an article in this topic because it looks like it's going to be a magnet for people seeking 2012 prediction information. I may have something to say about that. Gotta go.

===

Edit: Vectors? I'll give you some vectors. Follow these pointers to enlightenment.

Yep, rodin pushed it over the edge, below (http://www.bautforum.com/questions-answers/81304-2012-vectors.html#post1372141), with ludicrous and unsupported claims of psychological operations and disinformation campaigns, so, in case scared people come here looking for information about pseudoscientific year-2012 predictions, to counteract the nonsense, I present this collected wisdom of BAUT Forum members in regards to the nearly entirely false predictions for year 2012, scattered among a large number of topics.

This isn't a FAQ, a collection of frequently asked questions. It's all the questions and answers I could find at one point in time many months ago, and accumulations since. But, funny thing, a lot of them are asked frequently, repeatedly, over and over, redundantly, till the cows come home, which will probably be some time in 2013. Enjoy, if you can.

Some BAUT Forum topics that have addressed aspects of predictions for year 2012, and some allied articles, are:


2003 no, 2012 si (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=03179)
2012 (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=03181)
End of Mayan Calendar (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=04509)
Pole shift / Planetary alignment 2012? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=07145)
2012 alignment question (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=09421)
about the Mayan 2012 item (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=10214)
2012 Debunking? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=10724)
Possible asteroid impact in 2012? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=10924)
2012 asteroid? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=13592)
We don't have to worry about 2012! (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=16490)
More on 2012 from India Daily (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=16709)
2012 Completion of conspiracy? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=17667)
Here's what's REALLY going to happen in 2012... (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=18322)
crop circles, Planet X and 2012 (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=18375)
Planet X, crop circles and 2012 cataclysma (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=18378)
According to the Mayans, what will happen on 23rd Dec. 2012? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=18757)
More 2012 Nonsense (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=19201)
NEO 2012? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=20191)
Dangerous NEO in 2012? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=20539)
Christmas 2012 (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=23941)
2012 mayan calender end of world (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=30892)
Regarding the supposed polar shift/new ice age in 2012 (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=31452)
New 2012 threat? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=32413)
2012 look at this thing on the sun (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=35462)
Russian Expert Predicts Global Cooling from 2012 (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=38978)
Pole shift idea origins (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=43775)
Dec 20 2012 (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=46117)
2012 Stuff (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=51021)
No reply previous question (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=52297)
Horizon Project-New End of World Scare? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=53788)
Date: December 21st 2012 (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=53831)
Earth passing thru Galactic center in 2012 - didn't that already happen? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=53904)
2012: What do you think well happen (if anything) (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=53924)
So what will we see in 2012? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=54404)
Galactic Tsunami? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=54418)
Plane of the ecliptic of the galaxy? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=55312)
Earth's Magnetic Field & 2012 (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=55386)
2012? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=56513)
Any truth to this? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=58039)
How can the sun be aligned with Galactic centre? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=63109)
the whole 2012 poles flip nonsense (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=63449)
Planet X Official Advertisement (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=65831)
What year are we in (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=66055)
Quick question about the sun (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=66221)
Galactic Alignment (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=66414)
Books of 2012! - (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=67663)
2007 = 2012 (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=67908)
Return of Planet X By Rand (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=67948)
Don Alejandro - Mayan Elder. (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=67954)
Toutatis 4179: 2012? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=68472)
Galactic Alignment in 2012 ? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=68661)
Solar Storms (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=68907)
A real prediction! (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=69448)
NIBURU - Brown Dwarf, The DESTROYER (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=70163)
2012 Galactic Alignment (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=70260)
Not 2012 again! But I cant help it~ (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=70438)
New evidence for 2012 TEOTWAWKI!!! (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=70795)
this may be a silly question but... (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=71061)
Just to know if this is true (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=71216)
Just Wondering... (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=71633)
Planet X/Nibiru, is it real? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=72398)
Youv heard this a million times. (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=72777)
Nibaru or Planet X (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=73180)
Mayan calendar (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=73414)
2012 Article? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=73492)
can i say something please on planet x (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=73579)
Nibiru (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=73654)
The growing earth.... :P (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=74164)
Our Solar System's Eclipse of the Galactic Plane on Dec 21, 2012? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=74615)
Something scaring the hell out of me.... (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=74881)
It's Only the end of the World AGAIN!!! (Woo Woo Alert) (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=76346)
2021 Doomsday (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=77802)
is it just me or is the milky way brighter..? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=77955)
Polar Shift in 2012? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=78219)
I would like to ask about Nubiru stuff... (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=78719)
Bit behind the times, my appologies... (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=78966)
the "pole shift thing" (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=79146)
All the Truth about 2012 (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=79425)
Confused about 2012 (yes, another one!) (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=79817)
Another paranoia mind due to 2012 (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=80144)
novelty theory (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=80949)
Possibility of Pole Shift (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=81227)
2012 Vectors (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=81304)

Universe Today: No Doomsday in 2012 (http://www.universetoday.com/2008/05/19/no-doomsday-in-2012/)
Bad Astronomy Blog: 2012, the year nothing will happen (http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/05/19/2012-the-year-nothing-will-happen/)
Universe Today: 2012: No Planet X (http://www.universetoday.com/2008/05/25/2012-no-planet-x/)
Universe Today: 2012: Planet X is not Nibiru (http://www.universetoday.com/2008/06/19/2012-planet-x-is-not-nibiru/)
Universe Today: 2012: No Killer Solar Flare (http://www.universetoday.com/2008/06/21/2012-no-killer-solar-flare/)
Universe Today: 2012: No Geomagnetic Reversal (http://www.universetoday.com/2008/10/03/2012-no-geomagnetic-reversal/)

Robert Tulip
2008-Nov-16, 10:46 PM
http://www.greatdreams.com/2012.htm presents an argument that

The date December 21st, 2012 A.D. (13.0.0.0.0 in the Long Count), represents an extremely close conjunction of the Winter Solstice Sun with the crossing point of the Galactic Equator (Equator of the Milky Way) and the Ecliptic (path of the Sun), what that ancient Maya recognized as the Sacred Tree. This is an event that has been coming to resonance very slowly over thousands and thousands of years. It will come to resolution at exactly 11:11 am GMT....On the winter solstice of 2012, the noonday Sun exactly conjuncts the crossing point of the sun's ecliptic with the galactic plane, while also closely conjuncting the exact the center of the galaxy.And yet the same website states:
John Major Jenkins has pointed out that the detailed graphs of the cycles do not actually show significant termination points at the end of the Great Cycle; ...According to John Major Jenkins, it will take 36 years to precess through the Galactic equator. The Galactic Alignment "zone" is 1998 +/- 18 years = 1980 to 2016. This is "era 2012".
Was the Mayan linkage of the precessional cycle to the galactic core out by 14 years?

grant hutchison
2008-Nov-16, 11:09 PM
Was the Mayan linkage of the precessional cycle to the galactic core out by 14 years?There's no evidence the Maya were bothered about any such thing. Their calendar had a start date of purely mythological significance, and progressed in a sequence of Long Counts of 20x18x20x20x13 days, or about 5125 years. Five of those Long Counts turn out to be a couple of hundred years shorter than the precession cycle. The only people who are out by 14 years are those modern fantasists who are trying to concoct some astronomical significance for the end of the current Long Count.

Grant Hutchison

kleindoofy
2008-Nov-16, 11:15 PM
... On the winter solstice of 2012, the noonday Sun exactly conjuncts the crossing point of the sun's ecliptic with the galactic plane, while also closely conjuncting the exact the center of the galaxy.
If so, so what?

If true, it's a nice statistic, like some doped up baseball millionaire hitting x+1 homeruns, but is positively and absolutely meaningless to our lives.



Was the Mayan linkage of the precessional cycle to the galactic core out by 14 years?
What Mayan linkage?

Something tells me, that when a people doesn't use the wheel and thinks the world is flat, that it doesn't make many usefull predictions about galactic phenonema.

grant hutchison
2008-Nov-16, 11:32 PM
A relevant quotation from EG Richards' Mapping Time:
The Maya never employed intercalations or paid undue attention to synchronizing their calendar with astronomical events, so the accuracy of the calendar is of no concern. The Maya knew, as we know ourselves, that the first of Pop [start of the Mayan year] would occur one day earlier with respect to the seasons every four haabs [365-day Mayan years] or so. They made adjustments from time to time of the date of such of their festivals as were considered seasonal.

(My explanatory insertions)These folk cared so little about keeping their calendar matched to the seasons, they never had a leap year: they just adjusted the dates of seasonal events instead. Does that seem like a group of people who would tie their long calendar to a particular solstice date in the far future?

Grant Hutchison

rodin
2008-Nov-23, 09:45 PM
2012 is a psyop (you only have to see who has been promoting it) but the date may be manipulated for some contrived end. My technical analysis of markets predicts a dislocation around the much vaunted 12 21 2012 date. Numbers, it seems, do matter to some

Veeger
2008-Nov-23, 09:57 PM
Cool. A secret gub'ment operation. A perfect topic for our Conspiracy Theories forum.

Tinaa
2008-Nov-23, 09:58 PM
rodin do not post ATM/CT stuff in Q &A.

thorkil2
2008-Nov-24, 12:44 AM
We Mayans have established a safe haven in the nth side dimension where we will ride out the end of the world cycle in 2012 (give or take), and come back to rebuild the world in neatly fashioned megaliths. Anybody wanna sign up to be a Mayan? (Special perks for stone masons, astrologers, and sacrificial virgins.) Membership includes a cool "I survived 2012" T-shirt (or loin cloth, your choice), lapel button, secret handshake, and your own set of nth dimensional gate incantations. But sign up soon...the nth dimension isn't all that big, and the end is coming... :whistle:

thorkil2
2008-Nov-24, 01:09 AM
I hasten to add that previous was not directed at the OP, though he is welcome to sign up too. :)

John Mendenhall
2008-Nov-24, 07:58 PM
- - Not! It's from an ATM'er.

"To complete the picture all the photons can be seen to be synchronising friction on and off throughout the overall cone which itself is synchronised to the equal and opposite reaction of equilateral triangulation"... by a scientificator in ATM, too priceless to be lost to posterity.



I love it. Thank you.

kleindoofy
2008-Nov-24, 08:04 PM
... sign up soon ...
I've always been partial to terraced pyramids, but can I get the t-shirt without signing up?

I prefer to face this doomsday without formal commitment. ;)

thorkil2
2008-Nov-24, 09:56 PM
I've always been partial to terraced pyramids, but can I get the t-shirt without signing up?



Sure. Delivery in 2013 (give or take....)

Also, for the record, the "--Not!" part of the earlier quote was not me.

Robert Tulip
2008-Nov-29, 01:53 AM
I've always been partial to terraced pyramids, but can I get the t-shirt without signing up? I prefer to face this doomsday without formal commitment. ;)

Speaking of terraced pyramids, I am interested in the interpretation of the Great Seal of the USA (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:USA_Great_Seal_Reverse.png), which has the year 1776 as the first terrace of a 13 story pyramid topped by the eye. On the Mayan Long Count - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_calendar#Long_Count - the K'atun is 7200 days, just short of twenty years. It is fairly close to the Jupiter-Saturn return.

Could 7200 days of the K'atun be an approximation to the Jupiter-Saturn period?

If 4 July 1776 is the date of the first terrace on the pyramid on the United States Dollar bill, what is the date of the top terrace measured in K'atun, and in Jupiter-Saturn orbits?

kleindoofy
2008-Nov-29, 02:47 AM
... If 4 July 1776 is the date of the first terrace on the pyramid on the United States Dollar bill, what is the date of the top terrace measured in K'atun, and in Jupiter-Saturn orbits?
I will give the most serious answer I am capable of.

Go out and eat Chinese. Wait for the fortune cookie. Read it. I'm sure you'll find the answer there. Really.

[wanders off muttering "are these people real?" ...]

astromark
2008-Nov-29, 07:12 AM
Robert Tulip; If you are asking a question that could be conceived as answerable I would give it a go... The answer to your question; Is, NO. If you think that the US dollar bill has some answer.... go and lay down. That form of illogical thought process does not fit well here. I would look into posting this in 'Off Topic Babbling' It might get interesting there... Mark.

mugaliens
2008-Nov-29, 11:23 AM
I'm surprised this whole thread hasn't been moved, as it's not Science and Astronomy Q&A at all, but, at the very least, OTB fodder. More like ATM fodder with it's 2012 references.

Fun? Sure. But it doesn't belong in Q&A.

Gillianren
2008-Nov-29, 06:05 PM
Really? I think it's exactly what belongs in Q&A. "I heard this thing. I have a question about it. Am I right or wrong?" True, the OP has clarified (and misunderstood) a few things, but it remains a question about astronomy.

Robert Tulip
2008-Nov-30, 01:46 AM
Robert Tulip; If you are asking a question that could be conceived as answerable I would give it a go... The answer to your question; Is, NO. If you think that the US dollar bill has some answer.... go and lay down. That form of illogical thought process does not fit well here. I would look into posting this in 'Off Topic Babbling' It might get interesting there... Mark.

astromark, you must have not read my post closely. I am asking scientific questions which have answers which I do not know, while also asking how these answers would map on to the best known example of a terraced pyramid, at an interesting intersection between astronomy and culture.

Is 7200 days of the K'atun an approximation to the Jupiter-Saturn period? It appears to be a 20 year estimate based on a 360 year day, which also closely matches the main planetary cycle of this period, Jupiter-Saturn at 19.85 years. I imagine it is possible that the Mayans started off using the Jupiter-Saturn cycle to mark the generations, and that 7200 days was their approximation of it.

I am not alleging any significance to the terraced pyramid on the US dollar bill and great seal. I am simply asking, is it true that the terraces match the K'atun of Mayan astronomy, and if so, what would be the dates of the top terrace from the various methods of calculation? The dollar bill has the year 1776 on the first terrace, which I assumed was a reference to American Independence Day. Terraced pyramids are of course a native american tradition, so it seems reasonable to ask if native american astronomy has any validity in interpreting this seal.

The three methods to calculate the date of the top terrace are
K'atun = 7200 days
Jupiter Saturn cycle =~ 7250 days
20 years = ~7305 days

I have now made an approximate calculation of dates of the top terrace on these three methods, with answers as follows.

K'atun: 4 July 1776 + 12 K'atun = 24 January 2013
Jupiter-Saturn: 4 July 1776 + 12 Jupiter Saturn cycles = 19 September 2014
Years: 4 July 1776 + 12 x 20 years = 4 July 2016

By these figures, which need checking, the approximate dates for the Eye above the pyramid are

Years: 4 July 2036
K'atun: 11 October 2032
Jupiter-Saturn: 26 July 2034

It could well be that none of this was intended in the design of America's Great Seal, but marking the first terrace with a date does seem to invite the question of whether the terraces are just the thirteen states or indicate dates.

grant hutchison
2008-Nov-30, 02:14 AM
I think we can safely dismiss any notion that the step pyramid on the Great Seal marks off Mayan time periods. The structure of the Mayan calendar was not deciphered by Westerners until the late nineteenth century.

Grant Hutchison

kleindoofy
2008-Nov-30, 03:27 AM
Err, folks, the pyramid on the US$ 1 bill is neither stepped nor terraced.

It may have tiers, resp. building layers, but those are not steps or terraces.

The Mayans had pyramids with very distinct steps/terraces. Hence the name.

@Robert Tulip

I took your question exactly as you asked it. My answer remains the same: fortune cookie.

Robert Tulip
2008-Nov-30, 05:27 AM
Thanks Grant, thanks Kleindoofy. So we are safe to assume no mayan cultural borrowing by the founding fathers. :lol: I came across this idea about the maya pyramid and the Great Seal as 20 year terraces in a novel, The Ezekiel Code. The author, Gary Val Tenuta, puts together an entertaining amalgam of wild ideas including this one. 21.12.2012 - 7200x12 days = ~6 June 1776, but that doesn't look to mean anything. The Ezekiel Code has a main plot device of a comet that could sneak up on us by secretly closing in on the other side of the sun only to appear at earth without warning. It shows how 2012 is likely to be a rich vein for mythology. Yes, the long count may end on 21.12.12, but nothing has any physical correlate with that date, especially crossing the galactic core. Nonetheless it is all fun imagination, and interesting to check how the ideas stack up against scientific observation.

01101001
2008-Nov-30, 05:52 AM
21.12.2012 - 7200 days = 6 June 1776, but that doesn't look to mean anything.

It does look like gibberish. Sure about the units?

Is not the difference between June 6, 1776 and December 21, 2012: 86,395 days? About 236.5 years?

7200 days is about 20 years.

Hey, maybe you can get your money back.

mugaliens
2008-Nov-30, 07:41 AM
Really? I think it's exactly what belongs in Q&A.

Really? Let's take a look at this, and why strength of belief has no merit as how things really ought to work.

As Q&A's subtitle so eloquently states, Q&A is about "a space/astronomy question." All 2012-related topics concern a new-age belief about a "great year of spiritual transformation, or alternatively, an apocalypse." (Wikipedia) They have absolutely nothing to do with either space or astronomy.

They do concern astrology, though... ;)

Since 2012 was mentioned in Heinlein's Methuselah's Children, Obama better keep an eye peeled for his predecessor, Nehemiah Scudder, who's slated to establish a religious dictatorship in the US in 2012. "Onward Christian soldiers, marching as to war!"

:doh:

You're right about one thing - 2012-related topics do not belong in ATM, either, as that's reserved for "theor that go against the astronomical mainstream." Since 2012 topics concern, at best, astrology, not astronomy, they shouldn't go there, either.

So where to put it? How about in a section reserved for "non-space and astronomy topics." On BAUT, that section is OTB. Alternatively, if you wanted to make a logic game which poked fun at the illogic of astrology and/or 2012 topics, you could put it in Fun-n-Games. If you want to discuss a conspiracy theory related to 2012, it might even go there.

But it does [I]not belong in the space/astronomy Q&A section.

Edit: By the way, in Alex Filipenko's (UC Berkley) Intro to Astronomy course, in Lesson 1 (http://webcast.berkeley.edu/course_details.php?seriesid=1906978460) he warns that those who're unable to discern the difference between astronomy and astrology will fail.

Robert Tulip
2008-Nov-30, 08:39 AM
It does look like gibberish. Sure about the units?
Is not the difference between June 6, 1776 and December 21, 2012: 86,395 days? About 236.5 years? 7200 days is about 20 years. Hey, maybe you can get your money back.
Sorry for typo, I meant 21.12.2012 - 7200x12 days = ~ 6 June 1776. Have now corrected.

Kleindoofy first mentioned pyramids in this thread. As I had just read a comment about this I thought it worth a question in response, perhaps unwisely. The earlier galactic core discussion is a legitimate Q&A topic. The basis of the K'atun is a reasonable question in archaeoastronomy, and does lead to the legitimate question of whether there is an astronomical basis for the design of the great seal. That is not a question of astrology but of cultural history. If the answer is clearly no then that is a useful point to establish.

Peter B
2008-Nov-30, 11:05 AM
The Ezekiel Code has a main plot device of a comet that could sneak up on us by secretly closing in on the other side of the sun only to appear at earth without warning.

I don't think it's possible for a comet to sneak up on the Earth from the far side of the Sun. After all, the diameter of the Earth's orbit is about 300 million kilometres, and we traverse that diameter in 6 months. I doubt it would be possible for a comet to follow a trajectory that constantly kept the Sun between it and the Earth, though I'm happy for someone to try out the maths.


Nonetheless it is all fun imagination, and interesting to check how the ideas stack up against scientific observation.

Sadly, it's not fun when people take this malarkey seriously and make decisions about their lives on the basis of it. I don't know whether you've read any of the threads which discussed a theory that a 2012-style disaster would happen back in 2003, but there were some desperately alarmed people whose lives were misery as a result of believing what they were told.

mugaliens
2008-Nov-30, 01:34 PM
I doubt it would be possible for a comet to follow a trajectory that constantly kept the Sun between it and the Earth, though I'm happy for someone to try out the maths.

Aha! Finally! An astronomy question is this otherwise non-astronomy astrological OT Bunch of babble!

Seriously...

Put in mathematical terms:

Ellipse: x2/a2 + y2/b2 = 1

Eccentricity: e=sqrt(1-(b/a)2)

Polar Coordinates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:EllipseInPolarCoords2.svg): r=a(1-e2)/(1+ecosθ)

Where r is the radius of the ellipse from one focus, F, and θ is the angle measured from line between the focus to the a end of the ellipse, to the radius.

Thus, we're looking for two ellipses with the same focus whereby both objects orbiting the sun are always along that same radius.

There is one and only one case where this is true: when the elliptical orbits of both objects are identical. Otherwise, it's clearly evident from Keplerian area sweeps that no other solution exists.

There remains another orbit, also a conic section, which might fit the bill: a hyperbola. As you may know, both the circle and the ellipse have a cutting plane which is less than the angle of the cone, while the hyperbola has a cutting plane that's greater than the angle of the cone. A parabola is when the cutting angle is paralle to the side of the cone.

Hyperbola: x2/a2 - y2/b2 = 1

However, it's again easy to see that there is no way for both objects to be consistantly colinear with the focus (Sun).

Thus, unless the object is going fast enough so as to transit the distance between the Sun and the Earth in very short order, before the Earth transits a distance equal to the sun's apparent diameter (and thereby reducing the geometry to an approximate triangle), there is no orbit which would allow the object to "sneak up" on us while being shielded in the sun's disk.

tusenfem
2008-Nov-30, 01:53 PM
The Ezekiel Code has a main plot device of a comet that could sneak up on us by secretly closing in on the other side of the sun only to appear at earth without warning.


wow, that is basically the exact same premise that Nancy Lieder came up with why we could not see Planet X, it is "hiding behind the sun".

astromark
2008-Nov-30, 06:38 PM
Robert Tulip and, tusenfem .. Please look at the posting from, mugaliens. Read it carefully.. understand what it is telling you. These are facts... However,.
I will concede that as a body, asteroid or comet nears the sun its path can be altered so as to course it to be in conflict with Earth. It would not 'sneak' up on us. We have in place some equipment that is looking for just this sort of thing... We are constantly looking at objects of interest. The wording of the possible impending 'what if' event. Is scare mongering. You should think about that before you post in here. These board's are read by impressionable young minds.

kleindoofy
2008-Nov-30, 09:00 PM
... Kleindoofy first mentioned pyramids in this thread. ...
Yes I did:


I've always been partial to terraced pyramids ...
This was simply an allegorical reference to the Mayans (who had genuine terraced pyramids), made in jest. I could easily have written "I've always been partial to Mayans" while conveying the same message.

How foolish of me to forget that "pyramids" is one of the 'activate woowoo minds' trigger keywords. I humbly apologize to the clear thinking BAUT members.

I'm sure anybody without a major ATM/CT/etc. agenda on their shoulder noticed the humor.

mugaliens
2008-Nov-30, 09:53 PM
How foolish of me to forget that "pyramids" is one of the 'activate woowoo minds' trigger keywords.

Now you've done it... Next thing you know, we'll be wamwoozled!


I humbly apologize to the clear thinking BAUT members. I'm sure anybody without a major ATM/CT/etc. agenda on their shoulder noticed the humor.

Well, since you put it that way, ok. But just this once! Do it again and I'll... I'll... Well, I'll... Hmph! Just, hmph!

thorkil2
2008-Nov-30, 11:23 PM
Yes I did:


This was simply an allegorical reference to the Mayans (who had genuine terraced pyramids), made in jest. I could easily have written "I've always been partial to Mayans" while conveying the same message.

How foolish of me to forget that "pyramids" is one of the 'activate woowoo minds' trigger keywords. I humbly apologize to the clear thinking BAUT members.

I'm sure anybody without a major ATM/CT/etc. agenda on their shoulder noticed the humor.

I noticed. I guess I started the whole thing with references to pseudo-Mayans rebuilding the world in megaliths, but didn't mean for it to take the thread off in other directions. However, it was a bit self-inspiring. With one positive response, I am now sorely tempted to go into the imprinted T-shirt/loincloth business.

Robert Tulip
2008-Dec-12, 06:00 AM
For interest, here (http://www.bautforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=9260&stc=1&d=1229061402) is a picture of planetary positions in 2012-13. The solstice is the point where the sun crosses line 10.

captain swoop
2008-Dec-12, 12:55 PM
and what does it mean?

Robert Tulip
2008-Dec-12, 09:30 PM
Hi Captain Swoop. Congratulations to you and other new Bautforum moderators on your appointment.

This planetary diagram for 2012-13 is just a way of providing empirical information about the shape of the cosmos on 21 December 2012, in view of the claims about the Mayan Long Count. It rounds out the question I asked in the OP on whether there are any astronomical vectors that support the New Agist theories. There are not. There are some nice conjunctions in 2012 between Jupiter and Venus, and between Mars and Saturn, but no surprising grand planetary alignments.

creativedreams
2008-Dec-13, 01:03 AM
Speaking of 2012,I distictly recall almost 3 years ago Fox News channel said there was avery large meteor 2 pass within earths orbit (with possible collision) and if it comes close enough it will be in the chute and boomerang around on an impact course 26 years later. This was stated in their scrolling news typed at bottom of the screen. Just can't recall for sure if it read 2012 or 2011. After that I never heard nothing more...was that a mistake or isn't it news for awhile.

astromark
2008-Dec-13, 06:24 AM
creativedreams; Treat it with the contempt it deserves. Its nonsense.
Nibiru is Jupiter. What one race of primitives observed two thousand years ago does not in any way bear credence to this ridiculous idea. If a large enough body to disrupt life on Earth were in fact heading this way for a 2012 rondavous... We would know by now.
It would need to have some considerable mass.
Any object entering this Solar system of that sort of mass would not go un-noticed.
It is not being kept from you... I would love to be the astronomer who found this object... short lived my glory might be... NO.
Put this hideous idea to rest. It is not true.

brink
2008-Dec-13, 08:00 AM
Speaking of 2012,I distictly recall almost 3 years ago Fox News channel said there was avery large meteor 2 pass within earths orbit (with possible collision) and if it comes close enough it will be in the chute and boomerang around on an impact course 26 years later. This was stated in their scrolling news typed at bottom of the screen. Just can't recall for sure if it read 2012 or 2011. After that I never heard nothing more...was that a mistake or isn't it news for awhile.

I think your referring to Apophis (http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/apophis/)? Planned to swing by in 2029, and then possibly again in 2036.

Recently Association of Space Explorers (http://www.space-explorers.org/) released a report to the UN regarding this type of threat. The report can be viewed here (PDF Format. 1MB) (http://www.space-explorers.org/ATACGR.pdf).

creativedreams
2008-Dec-13, 02:47 PM
this is probably what it was. Thanks brink!