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davegoldsmith
2003-Nov-02, 10:27 PM
:roll:
With the Earth hurtling through space at ......some incredible speed....
should we not expect to hear a sonic boom from everything that has just come into existance? As a jet plane reaches Mach 1 it propegates a sonic boom, which will approach an observer, it is heard ,then the sound dissapears
obviously with long standing established stuff like ....errm The statue of liberty for example, or Nelsons column, they would have propegated an already ceased sonic boom from from an earlier point in time, i.e the existance of the first building blocks......but that is made of a brick, which in turn is made of something else so we can keep tracing back the ingredients of stuff to its single composite elements...........following?
if a magician can produce a rabbit from a hat that wasn't there to begin with it should immediatly effect a sonic boom? but it doesn't. why not?
"Newton held the Lucasian chair as I do now, though it wasn't electrically controlled in his time" S. Hawking.

Musashi
2003-Nov-02, 10:38 PM
Sonic booms are a property of atmosphere.

ocasey3
2003-Nov-02, 10:38 PM
Because the magician only gives the appearance of pulling the rabbit from nothing. Its all illusion, smoke and mirrors.

davegoldsmith
2003-Nov-02, 10:55 PM
If the sonic boom is a product of atmosphere.........
could we obtain a sizeable vacuum jar ( big enough for a magician to fit inside....(and a small amount of extra room, all will become clear later))
and on the immediate production of a rabbit from the hat....BOOM..
do we get a sonic boom? or dont we ? would it break the vac jar? HELP someone tell me what would happen

ocasey3
2003-Nov-02, 11:08 PM
Sound needs a medium to travel through, like the air. There is no sound in the vacuum of space so there should be no sound in your vacuum jar.

Musashi
2003-Nov-02, 11:28 PM
You can't make a sonic boom in a vacuum jar.

Glom
2003-Nov-03, 12:00 AM
The sonic boom is caused when an object travelling through a medium, exceeds the speed of sound in that medium. The atmosphere is moving with the planet, so the speed of Earth in the medium of the atmosphere is zero.

But what about sound in a vacuum. The speed of sound in a medium increases with the density of that medium so the speed of sound in a vacuum, which has zero density, is zero. So that means that anything travelling relative to the vacuum would be travelling faster than sound and as such would cause a sonic boom.

However, how do you judge the speed relative to the vacuum? There's no way to define a reference frame to a medium that doesn't exist. Hence, you can't really say you're travelling at any speed relative to the vacuum.

davegoldsmith
2003-Nov-03, 12:18 AM
Aaahhh, the old frame of reference ploy.

davegoldsmith
2003-Nov-03, 12:24 AM
Sonic booms are a property of atmosphere.

Yes! which the Earth has plenty of.
of which most magicians favour prestigitating within for fear of suffocating

Glom
2003-Nov-03, 12:28 AM
Aaahhh, the old frame of reference ploy.

What ploy? What's wrong with my explanation? I'm saying that in order to have a sonic boom in a vacuum, the object must be moving relative to it, but that would mean that it's possible to define a reference frame relative to a vacuum, which it isn't.


Yes! which the Earth has plenty of ?

Yes, but in order for Earth to generate a sonic boom, it would have to be moving faster than the speed of sound relative to that atmosphere. Earth is in fact not moving at all relative to the atmosphere, therefore no sonic boom.

davegoldsmith
2003-Nov-03, 12:31 AM
Because the magician only gives the appearance of pulling the rabbit from nothing. Its all illusion, smoke and mirrors.

No, my good friend....Said magician pulls a once non existant Rabbit from a very real and previously "demonstrated as empty".....(usually) Top hat.

Musashi
2003-Nov-03, 12:33 AM
Right... so... what is your question again?

Since magicians don't actually make a rabbit appear from nothing, that doesn't actually cause a sonic boom. In your post you had the magician inside a vacuum pulling arabbit from his hat, which, even if he were to make it appear from nothing, would not produce a boom because there would be no atmosphere/medium/air for the sound to propigate through to create the boom.

Maybe you could ask som simple, specific questions prefaced with a number and seperated by a few carrige returns. It will make it easier to talk about your points without confusion.

Musashi
2003-Nov-03, 12:35 AM
NO....Said magician pulls a once non existant Rabbit from a very real and previously "demonstrated as empty".....(usually) Top hat.

Riiight... so, you are saying that magicians are actually pulling a previously non-existant rabit out of their hats? IF that were to happen, I suppose there may be a sonic boom or some appreciable level of noise as the rabbit 'popped' into existance. But since magicians don't actually 'create' the rabbit, there is no boom.

ocasey3
2003-Nov-03, 12:52 AM
Because the magician only gives the appearance of pulling the rabbit from nothing. Its all illusion, smoke and mirrors.

No, my good friend....Said magician pulls a once non existant Rabbit from a very real and previously "demonstrated as empty".....(usually) Top hat.

Are you being serious? Do you actually believe the magician pulls a rabbit out of nothing?

Musashi, me thinks we are having our collective legs pulled. [-X

davegoldsmith
2003-Nov-03, 12:54 AM
Aaahhh, the old frame of reference ploy.

What ploy? What's wrong with my explanation? I'm saying that in order to have a sonic boom in a vacuum, the object must be moving relative to it, but that would mean that it's possible to define a reference frame relative to a vacuum, which it isn't.


Yes! which the Earth has plenty of ?

Yes, but in order for Earth to generate a sonic boom, it would have to be moving faster than the speed of sound relative to that atmosphere. Earth is in fact not moving at all relative to the atmosphere, therefore no sonic boom. Nothing wrong with the explaination, its just that physicsy stuff refers often to "frames of reference" which i dont fully comprehend in some instances. Some "frames" require heavy maths or theoretical concepts of which the lay bloke ( me ) may not have the......erm.....Scholarship credentials?

Musashi
2003-Nov-03, 12:56 AM
if a magician can produce a rabbit from a hat that wasn't there to begin with it should immediatly effect a sonic boom? but it doesn't. why not?

Simple answer to the OP, magicians do not produce a rabbit from nothingness.

More complex answer... You say it doesn't as if you have actually witnessed someone producing something from nothing. I have a hard time believing that.

davegoldsmith
2003-Nov-03, 01:14 AM
Question answered, a sonic pop's as good as a bang when it comes to pulling rabbits out of hats

Celestial Mechanic
2003-Nov-03, 05:02 AM
Please, do not feed the troll!! :roll:

kilopi
2003-Nov-03, 06:15 AM
The speed of sound in a medium increases with the density of that medium
That's not true in general for gases, is it? Even, the other way around?

russ_watters
2003-Nov-03, 06:56 AM
The speed of sound in a medium increases with the density of that medium
That's not true in general for gases, is it? Even, the other way around?Temperature, not pressure.

kanon14
2003-Nov-03, 07:51 AM
should we not expect to hear a sonic boom from everything that has just come into existance?

what do mean by just come into existence? according to how we understand the universe today, matter and energy cannot be created or destroy


As a jet plane reaches Mach 1 it propegates a sonic boom, which will approach an observer, it is heard ,then the sound dissapears

that's different from your example of a skilled magician[/i]

davegoldsmith
2003-Nov-03, 04:55 PM
appologies for splitting this subject over 2 threads ( see process of events ) but is anyone prepared to supply me with the following
components, preferably through e-bay ( the bizzare nature of the list would not look out of place there. )

1. Top Hat black vintage ( crushed velvet preffered )

2. cable steel reinforced about 4 foot, 8mm gauge

3. seige engine trebuchet ( prepared to collect )

thanks

Humphrey
2003-Nov-03, 08:40 PM
The trebuche is no problem. The rest might be hard to get. :-?

davegoldsmith
2003-Nov-03, 08:45 PM
Cheers mate ,

Ive made leaps and bounds in literally......a few hours....

Its gauss rifles or bust now

support my project?

thanx

Humphrey
2003-Nov-03, 09:01 PM
nah. i prefer to keep my seige engines to myself. Nedd them for defense of my fort against NASA Fan.

carolyn
2003-Nov-03, 10:35 PM
from universe today

Cassini Listens to a Solar Storm

Nov 3, 2003 - The Sun ejected two massive flares towards the Earth last week, and NASA's Cassini spacecraft listened in on the burst of radio waves that accompanied them. The radio waves took 69 minutes to reach Cassini, moving at the speed of light, and they sound a bit like the whoosh of a jet engine. The blast of radio waves was one of the largest ever recorded - a type 3 event. Cassini is on track to reach Saturn on July 1, 2004.

if cassini hears woosh why not booms ? just a thought :wink:

Vermonter
2003-Nov-03, 11:55 PM
The important thing is that Cassini picked up radio waves and not actual sound caused by vibrations. We could send Cassini radio wave containing a the sound of a sonic boom (just sending information over radio media), but it would be a just waves and not audiable sound.

carolyn
2003-Nov-04, 05:47 AM
Ah, sorry then, I miss read the post, I thought it was saying that the radio waves were part of the suns flares? :roll:

Iain Lambert
2003-Nov-04, 01:15 PM
The solar flares cause an electromagnetic disturbance, yes. Stephen P. McGreevy does a similiar thing with the radio waves that are picked up from the disturbances caused by lightning. Athough they are radio waves and not sound waves, he just converts the straight waveform into a sound one, and the ULF waves convert to sound waves in the audible range. I rashly bought a 2-CD set of it, and its most odd.

carolyn
2003-Nov-04, 05:34 PM
ah, then whould that be what the elfrad group do as well, I have heard some of the sounds produced from lightning, etc I think you can listen on their site ( some ones site any way :o ) they are odd aren't they? would that mean then --- that you could, in theory, also do the same with the vibrational waves from a sonic boom in space? - thought ... except that a sonic boom is the sound that results from the force of air being pushed out of the way or something -- sorry brain just had its' own sonic boom, wrong end of the working day for this! coffee - must have coffee........... 8-[