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spratleyj
2008-Dec-29, 07:50 PM
I recently watched V for Vendetta and found it to be thought provoking. In fact the educational value is probably unmatched by any other "movie" that I've seen. The purpose was to advance certain political ideals, so you have to keep that in mind, however I still found it to be most intriguing.

Anyways, I was wondering what you guys thought about it?

Note:
This is a political movie, but I'm trying to discuss it in a non-political way, so please don't post any political comments.

eric_marsh
2008-Dec-30, 12:55 AM
I liked it. It's been a while since I've seen it though so I can't say much more than that.

Gillianren
2008-Dec-30, 03:54 AM
Remember that the politics from the era the graphic novel was written changed a great deal into the politics of the era in which the movie was actually made!

spratleyj
2008-Dec-30, 06:08 AM
Remember that the politics from the era the graphic novel was written changed a great deal into the politics of the era in which the movie was actually made!

Right, which is why the directors changed some of the political messages in order to be relevant today. I really liked the character V, but there is one question I still can't figure out. In the movie he says that the fascist leader always believes that "the end always justifies the means", yet V commits several terrorist acts. So isn't he doing the same thing?

HenrikOlsen
2008-Dec-30, 06:33 AM
It could be argued that committing terrorist acts doesn't mean the same as "the end always justifies the means", it means "the end sometimes justifies the means", which is not quite the same.

sarongsong
2008-Dec-30, 06:58 AM
...which is why the directors changed some of the political messages in order to be relevant today.Hollywood simply can't help itself :(
V for Vendetta is a ten-issue comic book series written by Alan Moore...The political climate of Britain in the early 1980s has also been cited as an influence on the work [gee, where've we heard that before]...After reading the script, Moore remarked:
"[The movie] has been "turned into a Bush-era parable by people too timid to set a political satire in their own country…It's a thwarted and frustrated and largely impotent American liberal fantasy of someone with American liberal values standing up against a state run by neoconservatives—which is not what the comic V for Vendetta was about. It was about fascism, it was about anarchy, it was about England."[11]
He later adds that if the Wachowskis had wanted to protest what was going on in the United States, then they should have used a political narrative that spoke directly at the USA's issues...
wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_for_Vendetta)

Ara Pacis
2008-Dec-30, 07:53 AM
Right, which is why the directors changed some of the political messages in order to be relevant today. I really liked the character V, but there is one question I still can't figure out. In the movie he says that the fascist leader always believes that "the end always justifies the means", yet V commits several terrorist acts. So isn't he doing the same thing?

I tended to think of V as somewhat of a Machiavellian philosopher. Contrary to popular convention, Nicolo Machiavelli probably wouldn't have said "the end justifies the means' because he didn't tend to look at things in terms of justice, merely efficacy. I think that is the difference between V and his adversaries: he does things because they have the required effect, without trying to pervert the meaning of justice in the process. It's been a while since I watched the movie, and I never read the comics, so I may be off base here.

Delvo
2008-Dec-30, 08:57 AM
How sure are you that that particular sentence by V was intended to be a criticism? Maybe it was something he considered factual but didn't hold against them, in itself. His problems with them could have been in other areas instead.

Salty
2008-Dec-30, 10:35 AM
I think that the end does not justify the means. I think that the means determine the end.

spratleyj
2008-Dec-30, 07:55 PM
How sure are you that that particular sentence by V was intended to be a criticism? Maybe it was something he considered factual but didn't hold against them, in itself. His problems with them could have been in other areas instead.

Well he says during a long rambling, in which he's listing everything wrong the President has done.

stutefish
2008-Dec-30, 09:44 PM
I think that the end does not justify the means. I think that the means determine the end.
Well, the means employed determine the outcome, but the end desired influences the choice of means.

For example, the end I desire is a quick-and-dirty file-copy system. So the means I choose are a simple Unix shell script, invoked by a cronjob.

In this example the ends absolutely justify the means. And really, what else could justify the means, if not the ends?

blueshift
2008-Dec-30, 11:00 PM
The film "Tron" seemed to be a similar film with a similar view. I was dissappointed in "V" simply because it sounded and looked like the same old thing that even tales of Robin Hood reflect. The masses (or any group) are always portrayed as ignoramuses that are in need of a hero or some great leader to save them. Apollo 13 was an exception. Dull, beauracratic nerds with pencils and calculations along with plenty of groupthink between Houston and the crew saved that situation.

Salty
2008-Dec-31, 09:55 AM
Well, the means employed determine the outcome, but the end desired influences the choice of means.

For example, the end I desire is a quick-and-dirty file-copy system. So the means I choose are a simple Unix shell script, invoked by a cronjob.

In this example the ends absolutely justify the means. And really, what else could justify the means, if not the ends?

Well, stutefish, you made a good point. To answer your question, imho, the means are either justified or condemned by two things. One is the motive of the ends. The other is "the truth of the matter" regarding the means and the results.

BigDon
2008-Dec-31, 06:28 PM
The Shadow Principle.

People often become the demons they set out to destroy.

The Backroad Astronomer
2008-Dec-31, 09:16 PM
What do you want?