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sarongsong
2009-Feb-02, 06:28 AM
The U.S.-Mexico border areas have been increasingly impacted by illegal activities.
What to do?
January 30, 2009
..."The Dallas Morning News, citing anonymous sources, reported that if the bloodbath escalates, U.S. officials are contemplating the possibility of an enhanced U.S. role in battling Mexican drug cartels, including joint operations with Mexican forces and the involvement of U.S. contractors, military and intelligence personnel."...
military.com (http://www.military.com/news/article/us-mulls-dod-aid-to-mexico-in-drug-war.html)

Alan G. Archer
2009-Feb-02, 07:36 AM
Does "U.S. contractors" = Blackwater Worldwide?

novaderrik
2009-Feb-02, 07:59 AM
my idea is to make the entire border from San Diego to the mouth of the Rio Grande into a live fire training ground for the troops that are going to Iraq... it's perfect for that, with all the different types of terrain that they will encounter once they get there, along with bad guys just asking to be blown up.

Alan G. Archer
2009-Feb-02, 08:11 AM
I have a bad feeling about this thread.

Jens
2009-Feb-02, 10:20 AM
The U.S.-Mexico border areas have been increasingly impacted by illegal activities.
What to do?

Make immigration legal. Then you'll have no further illegal activities. :)

pzkpfw
2009-Feb-02, 10:38 AM
PLEASE let's all be VERY careful herein.

I feel it's already gotten close to the "line".

megrfl
2009-Feb-02, 01:24 PM
Eleven homicides occurred in Juarez on Sunday, seven on Monday, six on Tuesday and nine on Wednesday. And on Thursday, at least six men had been killed by the evening, including an unidentified man found tied up and stabbed to death not far from the new U.S. Consulate, state police said.

I count 39 dead.

What to do?

Isn't it up to the Mexican people? Shouldn't it be their fight?
Or are they just running amuck until someone else steps in? Which is ridiculous.

If it's so bad, their government needs to take action.

Doodler
2009-Feb-02, 01:38 PM
I count 39 dead.

What to do?

Isn't it up to the Mexican people? Shouldn't it be their fight?
Or are they just running amuck until someone else steps in? Which is ridiculous.

They are trying, unfortunately, the government and the police force is riddled with corruption. The civilians are as helpless as we are to stop it.

megrfl
2009-Feb-02, 02:25 PM
If the linked wiki report is accurate; their government can and should take action on their own behalf, without the need for hand holding.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico#Government_and_politics

mugaliens
2009-Feb-02, 03:31 PM
Unfortunately, the Mexican government isn't nearly as well funded as our own.

Besides - if those who can't make it in Mexico are fleeing to the US, then it becomes the US' problem, not Mexico's.

mike alexander
2009-Feb-02, 03:34 PM
Would it be in bad taste to note most of this depravity is a sidebar to the drugs moving through Juarez into the US? The giant sucking sound pulls northward. Or maybe giant snorting sound.

Why the heck they can't be more civilized about feeding our habit is beyond me.

flynjack1
2009-Feb-02, 05:15 PM
1. Drug use is a problem for the Mexicans as well.
2. The violence is spilling over the border, not just in Mexico.
3. The Mexican Government is making a major push into areas left without enforcement for many years. This is causing the cartels to battle against each other and the government with innocent folks caught in the middle.
4. Mexico is one of the US largest trading partners to include like 30 percent of our non-domestic oil purchases. We are Mexcios number one trading partner barr none.
5. If you think a free democratic Mexico isnt in the USA's best interest then turn your back.

HenrikOlsen
2009-Feb-02, 06:52 PM
3. The Mexican Government is making a major push into areas left without enforcement for many years. This is causing the cartels to battle against each other and the government with innocent folks caught in the middle.
If this is right, the violence is actually the result of the Mexican government doing something about the problem rather than the result of them giving up, they should be commended rather than derided for doing so.
This is in the long term better for the country.

flynjack1
2009-Feb-02, 08:12 PM
If this is right, the violence is actually the result of the Mexican government doing something about the problem rather than the result of them giving up, they should be commended rather than derided for doing so.
This is in the long term better for the country.

They are attempting to get control over things, but the corruption does run deep and the narco-traffickers are powerful in money and assets. The Mexican citizens are only now begining to show shock at the level of violence and corruption. Law enforcement, Military, Government officals, and the press are all in great danger as targets of the cartels. Our assistance is needed and I believe appropriate.

RalofTyr
2009-Feb-02, 08:25 PM
Mexico is only putting pressure on the drug cartels because America is asking them to do so. Otherwise, The Mexican government could really care less. When criminals kill each other, the problem will solve itself, is pretty much it's policy.

Also, all that drug money coming back into Mexico from America is good for Mexico. Only thing to equal that is the increased aide money from the US.

What we really need to do is solve the drug problem in the United States first. However, I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon. It's just that if you win the war on drugs, what are all the DEA agents and Border Patrol Agents going to do?

And I believe the Juarez Organization is composed of ex-Mexican Military forces and the other Organization is suffering from a crisis in leadership.



my idea is to make the entire border from San Diego to the mouth of the Rio Grande into a live fire training ground for the troops that are going to Iraq... it's perfect for that, with all the different types of terrain that they will encounter once they get there, along with bad guys just asking to be blown up.

Actually, the American Southwest is a "Living Desert" whereas Iraq is more considered your more traditional desert.

Also, food prices will go through the roof. Ever since there's been farming in California and the South West, there's be migrant labor that comes up from Mexico during the harvest season then go back.

They really should use the military to patrol the boarder. It will give them experience in dealing with a civilian population to which not all of them are hostile, only a small minority.

flynjack1
2009-Feb-02, 09:25 PM
Mexico is only putting pressure on the drug cartels because America is asking them to do so. Otherwise, The Mexican government could really care less. When criminals kill each other, the problem will solve itself, is pretty much it's policy.


And I believe the Juarez Organization is composed of ex-Mexican Military forces and the other Organization is suffering from a crisis in leadership.


Also, food prices will go through the roof. Ever since there's been farming in California and the South West, there's be migrant labor that comes up from Mexico during the harvest season then go back.

They really should use the military to patrol the boarder. It will give them experience in dealing with a civilian population to which not all of them are hostile, only a small minority.


As I mentioned before, the Mexican people are begining to be affected by the violence. last year 5300 deaths related to the conflict between cartels and the government. Kidnappings and murders have impacted the society at all levels not just bad guys. We havent lost that many in 5 years of conflict in IRAQ. Beheadings are common as a shock tactic of the cartels. I believe that the Mexican government is motivated beyond just doing what the US Govt ask.The organized crime aspect has caused a lot violence in the USA, and is on the increase.

A large amount of produce is imported from Mexico, so you are correct that prices will escalate, not just due to migrant labor. They dont all "go back" either.

Using the military on the US side is a problem to an extent in that US troops have no power of arrest. Its called Posse Comittatus, essentially by law we cannot use the military to do law enforcement. When the military is used it is in an administrative or support role as required by our laws.

Argos
2009-Feb-02, 09:45 PM
My impression, from all I see in the US media, and read in blogs, forums [attention to post #3 in this thread], including academic think-tanks, is the lack of good will regarding Latin Americans in general and Mexico in particular. Latin Americans are usually portrayed as lazy and/or corrupt and/or accomplices [or even members] of mafias.

Drug traffic and organized crime affect primarily the Latin American population, comprised of decent people in the vast majority, as any other region in the world. An enormous effort is being made by Latin American governments, NGOīs and common citizens, in the attempt to fight this problem [which in my opinion stems from the combination of prohibition itself plus the consumption by rich/middle class people both North of the Rio grande and Latin America].

The drama of the <citizens> is not to be confused with drug cartels [even though these folks are exploited and instrumentalized by such criminals], and none of these problems can be taken lightly or addressed in two lines, given its complexity.

Note - I removed a certain descriptive word. Give the content, I suspect Argos used it for effect, and not in a negative manner, but we had a complaint. - Swift

Doodler
2009-Feb-02, 10:46 PM
My impression, from all I see in the US media, and read in blogs, forums [attention to post #3 in this thread], including academic think-tanks, is the lack of good will regarding Latin Americans in general and Mexico in particular. Latin Americans are usually portrayed as lazy and/or corrupt and/or accomplices [or even members] of mafias.

Drug traffic and organized crime affect primarily the Latin American population, comprised of decent people in the vast majority, as any other region in the world. An enormous effort is being made by Latin American governments, NGOīs and common citizens, in the attempt to fight this problem [which in my opinion stems from the combination of prohibition itself plus the consumption by rich/middle class people both North of the Rio grande and Latin America].

The drama of the [removed by Doodler] is not to be confused with drug cartels [even though these folks are exploited and instrumentalized by such criminals], and none of these problems can be taken lightly or addressed in two lines, given its complexity.


Except to ask:

Why has it been allowed to spiral this far out of control? I'm perfectly willing to believe the vast majority of people south of the border are more victim than victimizer, but lets be real here. The cartels have more power in Mexico right now than any organized crime group in the US ever did, and I'm talking right up to the Prohibition Era Commissione.

What did the US do right that Mexico (and by extension, a lot of other South American countries) have not?

mike alexander
2009-Feb-02, 11:21 PM
Times have changed. The term 'wetback' isn't used in polite company anymore.

Alan G. Archer
2009-Feb-02, 11:53 PM
I have a somewhat better feeling about this thread.

The so-called "War on Drugs" is as much a farce today as when it was given life nearly 38 years ago. Further token militarization of an already institutionalized pseudo-war will not solve the problem. Either wage a real war on drug makers and users or lift the drug prohibition. (Waging such a war or lifting the prohibition is politically unpopular, so the popular farce goes on.)

If the drug cartels depended on people like me, they would be out of business overnight. But there are too many who are willing to pay through their noses for their illicit fun.

Tinaa
2009-Feb-03, 01:12 AM
One of the problems facing Texas is the community hospitals going bankrupt. If one has a genuine emergency, night or day, the ERs are full of people seeking medical services for things like a cold or stomach virus. Many, if not most, of these people are not citizens. I am quite sure that much of these services are not paid or are paid with our tax dollars.

I know in our schools system we educate many children who themselves are illegal aliens. These issues are causing some real problems financing our schools and medical centers.

Can't blame anyone for seeking a better life.

As far as I know, wetback was never a polite term.

RalofTyr
2009-Feb-03, 02:44 AM
A large amount of produce is imported from Mexico, so you are correct that prices will escalate, not just due to migrant labor. They dont all "go back" either.

If there's work they might stay. If you look at old photos of farms in the California central valley, the majority of the farm workers are Mexican.


Using the military on the US side is a problem to an extent in that US troops have no power of arrest. Its called Posse Comittatus, essentially by law we cannot use the military to do law enforcement. When the military is used it is in an administrative or support role as required by our laws.

To use the military, legally, they'd have to declare Martial Law in that area and then the military would have full policing powers.

Tucson_Tim
2009-Feb-03, 03:00 AM
Most of the brutal manual labor jobs here in Tucson are done by predominantly Mexican crews. Building brick (slump block) walls, landscaping, paving crews, etc. I can vouch for them - they are NOT lazy. Not only do they do this back-breaking work but they can do it on the hottest days when it's pushing 110 degrees F (43 degrees C).

BigDon
2009-Feb-03, 03:06 AM
Most of the brutal manual labor jobs here in Tucson are done by predominantly Mexican crews. Building brick (slump block) walls, landscaping, paving crews, etc. I can vouch for them - they are NOT lazy. Not only do they do this back-breaking work but they can do it on the hottest days when it's pushing 110 degrees F (43 degrees C).

And if they weren't there, the buildings would still get built.

Mr. Archer, you don't know any Special Forces people, do you?

Tucson_Tim
2009-Feb-03, 03:13 AM
And if they weren't there, the buildings would still get built.


Next time you venture over into the Sacramento Valley, check out the folks that are working to bring you your vegetables, at the cheapest price in the world (percentage of take-home pay).

BigDon
2009-Feb-03, 03:17 AM
Hey Tucson, I have brain damage and seizures.

Who do you think hires me? Growers. And they are happy to get me.

Tucson_Tim
2009-Feb-03, 03:23 AM
Well, I consider the Mexican cultural influences here as a big plus. They are, generally speaking, warm, friendly people and I enjoy being around them. They work hard and seem to get as much enjoyment out of their work as is possible, considering what they do.

ETA: I'm not going to get involved with an immigration discussion, legal or illegal. Those threads turn sour fast.

BigDon
2009-Feb-03, 03:46 AM
Oh I agree! Sorry, the above was a bit snappy.

These people are my friends too. Though the last couple of years I had to move furniture with them as all the local growing land became too valuable as real estate. One of the big growers of exotics, family owned for generations, said he'd never sell. Then they offered him 120 million dollars for his land.

He grows exotics somewhere else now.

Neverfly
2009-Feb-03, 03:50 AM
One of the problems facing Texas is the community hospitals going bankrupt. If one has a genuine emergency, night or day, the ERs are full of people seeking medical services for things like a cold or stomach virus. Many, if not most, of these people are not citizens. I am quite sure that much of these services are not paid or are paid with our tax dollars.

I know in our schools system we educate many children who themselves are illegal aliens. These issues are causing some real problems financing our schools and medical centers.

These are very real problems that require attention. But it's very hard to address when so many want to play the racism card.


As noted above, prejudice and perception do not need to line up with reality. Mexican people in general are no different than white or black or chinese or anyone else. I have never observed any true behavioral differences between races. We all share the same basic traits. Cultural differences arise, but is not racial. There are cultural differences between folks in Alabama and New York. All of whom are white.
But once someone observes a portion of a population do something bad, they like to stereotype the entire crowd.
That makes half the problem.

The other half of the problem is those minorities that try to claim everything that they don't like or any policy is a product of racism.
It ends up causing an odd 'reverse racism' as that interested party tries so hard to pander to the minority that they end up favoring that minority over others and discriminating against others. Pandering to fallacious claims is a big part of the problem.

At a time in the USA, when racism infested our nations populace like cancer, a one Dr Carruthers got an excellent education and had a successful career including his Lunar Observatory experiments used on the Apollo missions. Dr Carruthers was a black man. I cannot imagine what kind of nonsense he had to put up with, though.

Race, nationality or ancestry should really have nothing to do with anything. Focusing on them, even in an attempt to be positive in the effort, yields little good.

So what we have is an affect on the USA from stemming from problems within that nation. It does not demonstrate that the people there are bad, but that those causing the problem are bad.

Anyone ever drive through Humbolt county, California? Keep your bullet proof windows rolled up.
Yet, you don't see Canadians claiming that Americans are lazy slobs because we have a Marijuana cartel in California delivering north of the border.

What to do is much easier said than done. But it's easier still to take care of our problems at home. Take the shrubs out by the root, rather than trying to pluck off the leaves and hope the shrub withers away.
Without a customer base here, the cartel would not be able to make money and sell here.

flynjack1
2009-Feb-03, 04:15 AM
Many good points above. I like Mexico. I like the Mexican people. I travel there on vacation, and I often work there too. Bottom line is that a country that doesnt control their borders cannot be assured of its long term security. I am all for a very open immigration policy but it needs to be done legally with checks and balances in place. It is a mistake to think that illegals only work for low wage jobs, there are many employed in well paying ones. Whatever decisions are made regarding immigration and handling the growing drug violence IMHO we need to be supportive of the Government of Mexico, because allowing it to fall victim to the warring drug cartels is not in our best interest.

sarongsong
2009-Feb-03, 04:15 AM
Does "U.S. contractors" = Blackwater Worldwide?You bet'cha---Blackwater West was set up last year right on the border (http://www.mapquest.com/maps?city=Otay+Mesa&state=CA), 20 miles southeast of San Diego, in the town of Otay Mesa.

flynjack1
2009-Feb-03, 04:28 AM
By the way the term "wetbacks' was not always a derogatory term. I didn't google it but I believe the term was first used publicly by the Truman administration, and of course referred to Mexicans swimming the Rio Grande to get into the US. The term has been considered offensive for the last 20 or so years however. It took on a derogatory connotation over time. Things change just as it is now not proper to refer to illegal aliens as they are now referred to as undocumented workers. The Border patrol refers to them as UDA's undocumented aliens. Non Hispanic crossers are refereed to as OTH's Other than Hispanic.

HenrikOlsen
2009-Feb-03, 05:27 AM
You bet'cha---Blackwater West was set up last year right on the border (http://www.mapquest.com/maps?city=Otay+Mesa&state=CA), 20 miles southeast of San Diego, in the town of Otay Mesa.
But what's to stop them from contracting to the highest bidder anyway, which would be the drug people?

sarongsong
2009-Feb-03, 05:50 AM
Well, they say:
Mission
Blackwater is committed to supporting national and international security policies that protect those who are defenseless and provide a free voice for all. We dedicate ourselves to providing ethical, efficient, and effective turnkey solutions that positively impact the lives of those still caught in desperate times...
blackwaterusa.com (http://www.blackwaterusa.com/about/missionstatement.asp)Hmmh, wonder which cartel has the most money...

Alan G. Archer
2009-Feb-03, 06:43 AM
Whichever cartel pays Blackwater, they better have deep pockets and a good legal team.


Mr. Archer, you don't know any Special Forces people, do you?

No, only regular Army guys and gals. Why do you ask?

RalofTyr
2009-Feb-03, 07:13 AM
America is the richest country around. They can finance hospitals that can care for all it's citizens and non-citizens alike. They just has to be a movement for it. We just bailed out failed finanical institutions. If instead, the US government chose to give that money to every American citizen, that would have been about $500,000 per person. Enough to provide sound health care to, to say the least.



But what's to stop them from contracting to the highest bidder anyway, which would be the drug people?

I don't think they'd do that. That would make them criminals and targets of the US government. Being ex military, mostly, I don't think they'd do that.

I can see them joining the Minute Men or being hired on behalf of the Mexican government, but I don't see that in this current administration.

Neverfly
2009-Feb-03, 07:17 AM
America is the richest country around. They can finance hospitals that can care for all it's citizens and non-citizens alike. They just has to be a movement for it. We just bailed out failed finanical institutions. If instead, the US government chose to give that money to every American citizen, that would have been about $500,000 per person. Enough to provide sound health care to, to say the least.

The bailout is by no means a measure of wealth as much as desperation.
That 800 billion is little compared the the trillions owed in debt. So even if you gave that 800 billion to each citizen, then balanced the books and made each citizen put forth a flat rate toward the national debt, we would all, every last one of us die in debt. So would our children. And our grandchildren.

No, we canNOT finance health care for all citizens and non citizens alike, anymore than we can afford much of what we are currently doing.

RalofTyr
2009-Feb-03, 08:06 AM
No, we canNOT finance health care for all citizens and non citizens alike, anymore than we can afford much of what we are currently doing.

We can put a man on the Moon, but we can't keep hospitals open?

Neverfly
2009-Feb-03, 08:10 AM
We can put a man on the Moon, but we can't keep hospitals open?

Um.. Do you see them closing?

Alan G. Archer
2009-Feb-03, 08:44 AM
America is the richest country around. They can finance hospitals that can care for all it's citizens and non-citizens alike. They just has to be a movement for it. We just bailed out failed finanical institutions. If instead, the US government chose to give that money to every American citizen, that would have been about $500,000 per person. Enough to provide sound health care to, to say the least.

303,824,640 people (July 2008 estimate (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/print/us.html)) x $500,000 = $151,912,320,000,000
Or...
138,893,908 taxpayers (fiscal year 2007 (http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/07databk.pdf)) x $500,000 = $69,446,954,000,000
Or...
Outstanding public debt per person = $34,830.29 (the last time I looked (http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/)).

I have no personal debt, and have been debt-free for nearly thirteen years, but my personal savings, not including my retirement account, would pay for only about 58% of my share of the outstanding public debt. I am currently unemployed and have no health insurance.



But what's to stop them from contracting to the highest bidder anyway, which would be the drug people?



I don't think they'd do that. That would make them criminals and targets of the US government. Being ex military, mostly, I don't think they'd do that.

I can see them joining the Minute Men or being hired on behalf of the Mexican government, but I don't see that in this current administration.

We should not be seeing weird outfits like Blackwater under any administration.

Argos
2009-Feb-03, 12:38 PM
What did the US do right that Mexico (and by extension, a lot of other South American countries) have not?

I wouldnīt be able to answer this question without getting into politics. And thatīs what this thread is. Stripping it of the political content makes it a phony discussion, a launch platform for racial and cultural attacks. I see a lot of innuendos already [e.g. post #3]. Since we cannot discuss the political [and economical] whys of the US success in that regard, this thread really donīt belong in BAUT.

(*) Not to mention that is has drifted away from the OP subject.

Argos
2009-Feb-03, 12:50 PM
Times have changed. The term 'wetback' isn't used in polite company anymore.

Oh, good to know somebody is interested in being polite to the Mexicans. Thatīs not the impression this whole discussion leaves.

Tinaa
2009-Feb-03, 01:01 PM
That is sad Argos. I don't think any of us here dislike Hispanic or Latino people or any other culture or that matter. I live in south Texas. I know that people here are just people, no matter the color, culture, whatever. It is just that in discussions of immigration problems, or any other problem, people automatically assume it has racial overtones. It is just not necessarily true.

Argos
2009-Feb-03, 01:34 PM
With all due respect, Tinaa, if post #3 is an example of good argument...Itīs fine for me. After all, Iīm not Mexican. Not even Latin American or [argh] 'Latino' [we donīt define ourselves in these terms]. Iīm from Brazil, a continent in itself [which, believe it or not, also faces problems with illegal immigration, given our economic success - and the way we deal wtih it is substantially different than the US way]. But we have had emigration to the US [which is fortunately reversing], and the stories I have heard make me a little bit touchy on the issue.

Iīm trying to be a good advocate for the nice people of Mexico.

Swift
2009-Feb-03, 01:53 PM
The bailout is by no means a measure of wealth as much as desperation.
That 800 billion is little compared the the trillions owed in debt. So even if you gave that 800 billion to each citizen, then balanced the books and made each citizen put forth a flat rate toward the national debt, we would all, every last one of us die in debt. So would our children. And our grandchildren.

No, we canNOT finance health care for all citizens and non citizens alike, anymore than we can afford much of what we are currently doing.
May I suggest that discussions about health care or the bailout be done in another thread, so as not to hijack this one. And even then, please follow our no politics rule.

Also please note that I quoted Neverfly's post only as an example - this warning is aimed at everyone

mahesh
2009-Feb-03, 02:22 PM
The U.S.-Mexico border areas have been increasingly impacted by illegal activities.
What to do?
Didn't James Taylor sing this song, sarangsong?

EricM407
2009-Feb-03, 05:19 PM
The cartels have more power in Mexico right now than any organized crime group in the US ever did, and I'm talking right up to the Prohibition Era Commissione.

What did the US do right that Mexico (and by extension, a lot of other South American countries) have not?

We ended Prohibition, for one thing. But that's not really an option for Those People, is it?

Argos
2009-Feb-03, 05:39 PM
We ended Prohibition

Booze is not prohibited in Latin/South America, and it never was. The end of the Prohibition Era in the US was nothing more than a return to good sense. I donīt think the 21st century international drug traffic compares with the state of affairs in the 1920's USA, both in nature and scale.

Doodler
2009-Feb-03, 07:26 PM
America is the richest country around. They can finance hospitals that can care for all it's citizens and non-citizens alike. They just has to be a movement for it. We just bailed out failed finanical institutions. If instead, the US government chose to give that money to every American citizen, that would have been about $500,000 per person. Enough to provide sound health care to, to say the least.

I'm going to hate myself for answering this, but I can't let it go.

All that would be is Zimbabwe style money printing. With the bailout, there's the expectation of repayment and/or re-investment. If the government cuts you a check for $500k, is there a chance in heck of you paying it back, or investing it and making more money? No. Its just dollars run off in a fax machine and flushed into the market. In fact, that's all that most of the money issued so far has done, and Congress is up in arms over it, because they were lied to (again).

Not saying any more, this is going in an entirely too political direction as it is.

BigDon
2009-Feb-03, 07:36 PM
We should not be seeing weird outfits like Blackwater under any administration.

Several of my friends, who were my age but still fit, joined up as they were too old to re-enlist in active duty military. With skill sets 25 years of active duty give you. One did two term in Afghanistan and three in Iraq. And at 57 he is done and bought a house. With 15 acres.

Who do you think they are hiring?

EricM407
2009-Feb-03, 07:37 PM
I donīt think the 21st century international drug traffic compares with the state of affairs in the 1920's USA, both in nature and scale.

No. 1920s era gangsters in the US didn't have a vastly more wealthy external market that they could use to fund their operations.

Argos
2009-Feb-03, 07:46 PM
No. 1920s era gangsters in the US didn't have a vastly more wealthy external market that they could use to fund their operations.

Thatīs what I meant.

Gillianren
2009-Feb-03, 08:26 PM
With all due respect, Tinaa, if post #3 is an example of good argument...Itīs fine for me. After all, Iīm not Mexican. Not even Latin American or [argh] 'Latino' [we donīt define ourselves in these terms].

Most of the Mexican/Central American/South American immigrants with whom I went to high school used "Latino." The one that shouldn't get used is "Chicano," which by definition means "people from Chihuahua." I wouldn't use the term myself if they hadn't; I tend to use the term that people of that group ask me to. Then again, I would call you Brazilian and Cathy Garcia Guatemalan and Aunt Teresita Peruvian and so forth. It's just for the larger group that I would use "Latino," and since you've said that it doesn't cover Brazilians, I wouldn't use it for you. Then again, I already knew that Brazil has a very different cultural history than the rest of South America, given the Portugese influence.

Boojum
2009-Feb-03, 08:50 PM
America is the richest country around. They can finance hospitals that can care for all it's citizens and non-citizens alike. They just has to be a movement for it. We just bailed out failed finanical institutions. If instead, the US government chose to give that money to every American citizen, that would have been about $500,000 per person. Enough to provide sound health care to, to say the least.

More like $2,000 per person, but you were pretty close.

BigDon
2009-Feb-03, 09:01 PM
Now everybody I worked with while moving furniture was able to show bonefides relating to their legal abilities to work in this country.

Oddly enough, most agricultural minded Mexicans seem to come from Northern Mexico with it's large ranchs and most of the Mexicans I did laboring jobs with were from Southern Mexico. As distinct as Notherners and Southerners here.

And the ones that come up to work tend to be good church going, farm raised people. Like church going, farm raised people anywhere. After allowing for the fact that they are young men away from home, in a foreign country. They were constantly coming to get me when some junkie ex-con we were seeing could be trusted enough for a full second chance started stuffing his pockets. (As I'm not the police, I'll turn your butt upside down and shake you out)

When I got to my last outfit, at first the Mexicans had *me* on trial. To make sure I wasn't a junkie/thief as can be all too common in the laboring classes. And when I was not only none of the above, but also an experianced mover, not lazy AND wasn't afraid to step up to the plate when the situation demands it of me, we became great friends.

This is not only a negative employment trait, it's a negative health trait. As if a member of your crew is caught pilfering, it is not unknown for the *feds* to go to every member of the crew's residences with warrents to make sure you a not a professional gang of thieves.

I've seen that happen three times in six years. Once I only avoided it because I was sick with uh, the scotch flu, and swapped out with another guy who had a warehouse job that day but wanted the more money my scheduld job would have brought.

Any crew I'm on that has newbies I feel might need the "lecture" in it, I tell them right up front, (out of customer's earshot) where we all stand and why, and then I watch for guys who relax and guys who fidget. And in my heart this puts the consequences, which are also spelled out, on them. It's not hard not to steal other people's stuff. Really.

Argos
2009-Feb-03, 09:09 PM
Then again, I would call you Brazilian

Thanks, Gillian. Perfect for me. :)


It's just for the larger group that I would use "Latino," and since you've said that it doesn't cover Brazilians, I wouldn't use it for you.

You Know, officially we speak a Latin-derived language. But 'Latino' is a a dislocated term for most Brazilians, especially those from the South [which is comprised of a great deal of Germans, Japonese, Polish, Italians, Lebanese, etc, and aggregates more than 50% of the countryīs population], like me. Iīd also point out that Brazil is also home for millions and millions of African descendants. Itīs really a multicultural caldron. The Oktoberfest in Blumenau is on par with the African celebrations in Bahia and the Afro-indian Boi-bumba festival in the Amazon. So, thereīs not much of a [i]Latinidad left.

OK. Back to Mexico.

Swift
2009-Feb-03, 09:14 PM
I'm going to hate myself for answering this, but I can't let it go.

You and everyone else needs to. Was I not clear? No discussions about health care, no discussions about the financial crisis.

This thead has been on the edge since the start. Next time it crosses the line, for anything, it is closed.

sarongsong
2009-Feb-04, 12:02 AM
Didn't James Taylor sing this song, sarongsong?Yes, and his phrasing of the title encapsulates that country's charm and appeal to those who want to see her do well.
Just wanted to point out the border situation here is rapidly worsening with no positive solutions in sight. :(

korjik
2009-Feb-04, 12:15 AM
Make immigration legal. Then you'll have no further illegal activities. :)

Legal immigration would stop the drug trade?

korjik
2009-Feb-04, 12:34 AM
With all due respect, Tinaa, if post #3 is an example of good argument...Itīs fine for me. After all, Iīm not Mexican. Not even Latin American or [argh] 'Latino' [we donīt define ourselves in these terms]. Iīm from Brazil, a continent in itself [which, believe it or not, also faces problems with illegal immigration, given our economic success - and the way we deal wtih it is substantially different than the US way]. But we have had emigration to the US [which is fortunately reversing], and the stories I have heard make me a little bit touchy on the issue.

Iīm trying to be a good advocate for the nice people of Mexico.

How does Brazil deal with immigration?

BigDon
2009-Feb-04, 05:43 AM
Legal immigration would stop the drug trade?

Immigration is legal. The issue was illegal immigration. Smugglers smuggle whatever makes the money.

BigDon
2009-Feb-04, 05:45 AM
Sorry Kor, meant to quote Jens! D'oh!

HenrikOlsen
2009-Feb-04, 07:55 AM
Also, the immigration issue is totally unrelated to the drug problem of the OP, as the immigrants neither produce not to a large extent use the drugs.

Try to get back to the real issue of the thread.

Argos
2009-Feb-04, 01:02 PM
How does Brazil deal with immigration?

Nice and easy. Weīre a nation of immigrants [my grandfathers came from Europe]. Furthermore, with a fertility rate of 1.8 weīre reaching the apex of the population growth. Thereīs recognition that it is important to keeping the economy competitive and increasing the diversity of the gene pool. Also, Brazilian relations with bordering neighbors has a quite different backdrop than that between US and Mexico, a totally different geopolitics view.

Now, lets take heed of Henrikīs advice.

sarongsong
2009-Feb-04, 02:02 PM
Also, the immigration issue is totally unrelated to the drug problem of the OP, as the immigrants neither produce nor to a large extent use the drugs...It's not that simple; the cartels operate within the U.S. and send up their own workers:
October 11, 2008
National forests and parks — long popular with Mexican marijuana-growing cartels — have become home to some of the most polluted pockets of wilderness in America because of the toxic chemicals needed to eke lucrative harvests from rocky mountainsides, federal officials said..."What's going on on public lands is a crisis at every level," said Forest Service agent Ron Pugh. "These are America's most precious resources, and they are being devastated by an unprecedented commercial enterprise conducted by armed foreign nationals. It is a huge mess."...
San Francisco Chronicle (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2008/10/09/state/n190508D53.DTL)

korjik
2009-Feb-04, 03:30 PM
Also, the immigration issue is totally unrelated to the drug problem of the OP, as the immigrants neither produce not to a large extent use the drugs.

Try to get back to the real issue of the thread.

Putting security on the southern border of the US invariably get charges of anti-immigrant leveled. Considering that the smuggling of immigrants and the smuggling of drugs are both smuggling, I would have to say that the two have at least a passing connection.

RalofTyr
2009-Feb-04, 05:02 PM
I've worked in the moving industry off and on for a decade.

Most of the workers were ex convicts, as moving is the only job they could get. I've worked with a few immigrants. From a few Mexicans that may have been illegal (the thought really didn't cross my mind at the time) to Hungarians, but the majority were ex convicts, mostly on drug charges and repeat offenders. For some, one day, they wouldn't show up because they got caught using and back to jail.

And a few would steal. They'd steal anything, from VHS tapes to tools. The Hungarians and I, would tell them, when they're digging through a customer's drawers in the truck, "To just ask them where it is" instead of searching for a cell phone accessory they wanted to steal...

Most Mexicans around here are from Northern Mexico. Some lived on ranches. Most came from poor families, whereas one, had an uncle in Mexico that never worked because he owned lots of ranches. There are a lot of Mexicans from Guadalajara here. They have blue eyes and blond hair.

BigDon
2009-Feb-04, 06:17 PM
I've worked in the moving industry off and on for a decade.

Most of the workers were ex convicts, as moving is the only job they could get. I've worked with a few immigrants. From a few Mexicans that may have been illegal (the thought really didn't cross my mind at the time) to Hungarians, but the majority were ex convicts, mostly on drug charges and repeat offenders. For some, one day, they wouldn't show up because they got caught using and back to jail.

And a few would steal. They'd steal anything, from VHS tapes to tools. The Hungarians and I, would tell them, when they're digging through a customer's drawers in the truck, "To just ask them where it is" instead of searching for a cell phone accessory they wanted to steal...

Most Mexicans around here are from Northern Mexico. Some lived on ranches. Most came from poor families, whereas one, had an uncle in Mexico that never worked because he owned lots of ranches. There are a lot of Mexicans from Guadalajara here. They have blue eyes and blond hair.

Ral, I did the same thing job-wise. You have to try to find the moving company that charges it's customers the highest rates and work for them. You don't have to deal with a lot of that ex-con crap. At least those that haven't proven themselves. You still get attempts at pilferage but as long as one person says, "No you're not!" you would be amazed at how many others don't think it's right either.

Tolerate that and you may as well just stick out you backside and offer the thief your wallet. 'Cause that's where it's going to hit you anyway.

Man! We have two very different views of this! Not being timid or a girl, if *I* caught a worker of mine doing as you said I would physically throw his butt off the back of the truck! Four foot drop and all! And I know the rest of my crew would swear he fell. A fit furniture mover is more than a match for any thief. Part of the reason they are thieves is work is too much for them.

Ral, you make your own luck. Tolerating that is bad luck.

RalofTyr
2009-Feb-04, 08:25 PM
I haven't worked for them in years. I wouldn't have much luck throwing a 320 pound guy out of a truck. These were grown men, in their 40's. They should know better. I told them not to steal, but they didn't give a hoot. The company, whose owner was in fact, an ex con, didn't care about theft. As long as it didn't hurt their money, they didn't care. However, that's come back to bite them in the butt. Back in the early '00's things were booming. Now, things have slowed down, and who wants to hire a movers that steal?

The Hungarians were kind of push overs. They were used to being pushed around. Many times I'd have to speak up for them so they'd get their tips own business owner's sons would decide to keep the tip money their dad gave them for us.

It's not they they were lazy and didn't want to work. The few that did steal were actually good workers. They just saw what they wanted, and took it. One guy, who was over 50, had a broken back or something along that line. He'd steal pain medication from customer's bathrooms.

Once, I was actually accused of theft, by the wife of one of the band members from Def Lepard. So the wife decided to leave her husband, and move out of their million dollar home into an expensive apartment in LA. We gather what few things she wants from the house, which was empty of furniture, except for golden records on the wall and the master bed room was full of electric guitars. So she gives us the keys to her apartment, pays us and says she has things to do and won't follow us there. So we drop it off. When we got there, we noticed the patio door was wide open. So later on that day, I get a call from work that a laptop and some jewelry was missing and she's filing a report. I remember this because it happened on 9/10/01. So a couple days later, a detective calls me and we talk. I told him that I remember her handing me a laptop case and I put it in a box and the box is in her dinning room etc. I never heard back from him. My work thought she was doing that for the insurance money because, apparently, she was a singer and the laptop had her songs on it. Which kind of strikes me as odd you'd hand over your work to movers when she could have easily taken the laptop with her in her car.

BigDon
2009-Feb-04, 08:54 PM
Damn Ral. 320 lbs? Was he fat or big? Fat men, though formidible, are easily taken down by crushing their in-step. Most don't have the strength of hip to manuver on one leg. But that can be a permanant injury, so best only done if the situation really demands it.

You're a mover. If something is too heavy to move by hand then it requires the use of tools! Telephone or crowbar. Both would work here.

RalofTyr
2009-Feb-04, 09:25 PM
Ex-prison skin head, 6'6".

BigDon
2009-Feb-04, 09:57 PM
Yeah, I'm not impressed.

You can't let ex-cons intimidate you Ral! Always a big mistake. Even getting a butt whuppin' is often a better outcome. That's just my point of view. Me being one of those multi-hundred pound movers in my forties myself.

(I would assume this attitude wouldn't work well for let's say, Chrissy)

Myself, I've found a man like that knows just how disposible he is, in the grand scheme of things. Cops find somebody like that rolled in a rug and it makes, maybe, the local paper. And not being any sort of criminal, well, I can pack heat! Yeah, wonders o' wonders, the benefits of obeying the common rules of decency! (At least in America)

chrissy
2009-Feb-04, 11:18 PM
(I would assume this attitude wouldn't work well for let's say, Chrissy)

Hey I pack a good uppercut, I have floored a few men in my days.

chrissy
2009-Feb-04, 11:22 PM
mellow mod hat on: BD we try to discourage people of advocating violence as an expression of disapprova please don't bring it up again.

HenrikOlsen
2009-Feb-04, 11:25 PM
(I would assume this attitude wouldn't work well for let's say, Chrissy)
As Chrissy's ex-military it might:) Try Gillian.

Moose
2009-Feb-04, 11:33 PM
To be honest, try _me_. *chuckle* With my arthritis and coordination, I'd be hard pressed to do damage to paper mache without tools... and a second try.

Gillianren
2009-Feb-05, 02:09 AM
To be honest, try _me_. *chuckle* With my arthritis and coordination, I'd be hard pressed to do damage to paper mache without tools... and a second try.

Sounds about right, yeah. The joke around here, when I threaten to kick people for whatever reason, is, "Yeah, and then you'll fall over."

BigDon
2009-Feb-05, 08:15 AM
Now I have several stories about Mexico. I think I will relate this one.

Now way back in the 70's I had a friend who loved to take road trips. From San Francisco down to the tip of Baja California about every other year or so. But this year my friend reads a story in National Geographic magazine on Baja California and it mentions that a woman in this particular village at the tip of Baja makes the best lobster burritos in the world.

He decided to have one of these best lobster burritos in the world.

So he and his traveling bud load up their station wagon with all their camping gear and head for Interstate 5. It's about a 15 to 16 hour drive from here to the border of Mexico in a loaded station wagon. Then about three days south to the tip, not pushing it and sleeping outside.

They did run into some oddities. As they did every trip.

There was one long stretch that then had about 110 miles between towns and NO fresh water. You have to prepare for that leg of the trip accordingly. You leave before sunrise and try to finish it in one go. The heat is murderous. And if you broke down it could be days before a single vehicle would pass.

So imagine their surprise, when about half way through this stretch of perdition they see this kid, just strolling down the road and all he has for posessions is the clothes on his back and two bleached cow skulls. That's it.

They passed him intially and then, as they realized there were no other vehicles in the vicinity they stop, reverse themselves and pick this guy up. And he was an interesting piece of work.

As of that morning he was a crewmember of a tuna boat out of San Diego. He was 18 and the new hire, and didn't realize what work on a tuna boat meant. He raised such a stink to be let off the ship the Captain finally agreed to put him ashore after he signed two waivers to that effect. One for the Captain to keep and another the Captain insisted the kid put in his wallet, (which he took out and showed them) for when "they find him." The Captain didn't seem to give him go odds.

They put the kid ashore that morning after they gave him a five gallon jerry can of water (he had to pay for the can) and the tunamen went back to catching tunas. Indiana Jones here takes a big swig of the water and then leaves the rest of it because it was too heavy and he didn't want to carry it. He picked up and started carrying the two cow skulls he found on the way because they were cool and he wanted to have them.

Well my friends insist the kid drop the skulls as I've seen how they pack their station wagon for these trips and there just wouldn't be any room for something like that, plus "stuff" is always crawling out of them as you would imagine. You don't want to transport those things without a little pre-preperation. I speak from experiance.

Believe it or not, the kid starts to complain! He wants the skulls and goes into a snit! Now they can't leave the guy, angry at him or not, because he will die if they leave him, they know that even if the kid doesn't, so they have to argue for ten minutes with him to get him in the car without the carrion and after an initial period of silence the kid starts up again about why can't he have the skulls!

Now the first "town" on the other side of this leg is just built up around an old gas station. Basically three families live around it. Kinda creepy all told but they had had enough of the kid's whining and were going to ditch him there.

But when it became clear they were dumping him there and why, he started crying, and pleaded with them and promised to straighten up if they just didn't leave him there! My friend said he wouldn't want to be left there and he spoke fluent spanish and could pass for local (elsewhere). Had that heavy "Innsmouth" vibe.

The next town south was about another fifteen more miles of hard road but it was at least worthy of the designation. Still had no phone, but there was a bus line south from there. And that's where they left him.

Well now, my friends continued their trek and they arrive at the village. They ask around, show people the National Geographic article and they find the place. It's on the coast, it's picturesque and... it's Sunday.

This little revelation was sort of deflating.

Until the lady who ran the restorant came out and asked them their business. After they gave her the story she said, "You drove thousands of miles because you read a story that I made the best lobster burritos in the world?"

And when they concurred that was indeed the case, she stoked up the fires and went to work getting the kitchen ready and my friend told me he felt really bad because she made her 30 something year old son, who was obviously enjoying his day off, snorkle up and go after some lobsters.

She said she couldn't charge them, it being Sunday and all, and that this was for coming all this way.

And my friend tells me that they were indeed, the best lobster burritos in the world.

(On the way back home they even scored the jerry can the kid abandoned. The road parallels the beach on that stretch and the non-driver kept a look out for it. Seems to have been painted bright orange as well. Still had the five gallons of water in it.)

pzkpfw
2009-Feb-05, 10:47 AM
(

The joke around here, when I threaten to kick people for whatever reason, is, "Yeah, and then you'll fall over."

Many years ago I leaped to the defence of a mate who was attacked by six guys outside a bottle store (liquor store).

I ended up with my hands on this guys jacket, holding him against a power pole (lamp post) staring at his face as he smacked me in the side of the head with his fist.

Basically, I didn't really want to hit him.

So I got the idea to lean backwards while still holding onto his jacket, so we'd both end up on the ground and the hitting would stop.

It worked.

I ended up dictating a statement about it to a policeman later that week. He edited it a certain way.

So I have a sworn statement filed away in a police station (unless they dump records after X years) that states "I fell to the ground to stop him hitting me".
)

RalofTyr
2009-Feb-07, 08:04 AM
Myself, I've found a man like that knows just how disposable he is, in the grand scheme of things. Cops find somebody like that rolled in a rug and it makes, maybe, the local paper. And not being any sort of criminal, well, I can pack heat! Yeah, wonders o' wonders, the benefits of obeying the common rules of decency! (At least in America)

Yeah, because I'm going to commit first degree murder over five dollars worth of tools :rolleyes:

sarongsong
2009-Feb-07, 09:41 AM
...I suppose completely sealing off the border, via a wall...The U.S. is putting up a combination virtual and actual "fence" along the 2,000 mile border, but they keep finding tunnels under it, some of which are quite elaborate.
What's going on in Juarez (bordering El Paso in Texas) is mirrored in Tijuana (bordering San Diego in California):
February 5, 2009
...If it isn't a war zone, it would be hard to tell by the body count, which has reached 207 in the Juárez area this year...
El Paso Times (http://www.elpasotimes.com/news/ci_11641299)

RalofTyr
2009-Feb-07, 07:23 PM
The U.S. is putting up a combination virtual and actual "fence" along the 2,000 mile border, but they keep finding tunnels under it, some of which are quite elaborate.


Watch Penn and Teller's episode about that. They built a wall like the one they're building and then hired illegals to find ways to get over, under and and through it.

And gave them hats.

flynjack1
2009-Feb-08, 04:59 PM
The "wall" is merely a force multiplier. It takes time and some effort to defeat it and casues some choke points to form that aides law enforcement by enabling them to focus their efforts on certain areas. It is not a solution in its self. The solution rest primarily with reducing the availability of employment and benefits. If there are fewer advantages to coming there will be reduced illegal immigration. The drug smugglers have found many creative ways around the "fence" and will continue to do so, hence the necessity of the virtual fence. All of this is aside from the OP which is the increasing violence in MX, which could threaten to destablize the legitimate government of MX. This has been going on for several years with the US press largely ignoring it for a variety of self serving reasons. Meanwhile in MX reporters are loosing their lives to get the stories out.

sarongsong
2009-Mar-11, 05:17 AM
...Smugglers smuggle whatever makes the money.C-SPAN's broadcast of "House Homeland Security Subcmte: Panel 2 - U.S.-Mexico Border Violence (http://www.c-spanarchives.org/library/index.php?main_page=product_video_info&products_id=284525-2)" reveals an estimated $60 to $80 billion annual illegal drug "trade" occurring here.

mahesh
2009-Mar-11, 08:43 AM
Now I have several stories about Mexico. I think I will relate this one....Still had the five gallons of water in it.)
Good morning BD!
I like your 'story' very much.
You have a wonderful way with words. I say this again.

and at the risk re-igniting chrissy's mod-displeasure....
nice comment about the telephone or crowbar, working....:D
rather subtle and very effective expression. i love the way you say things.

thanks for sharing the lobster story BD. nice lady too and her lobsters.

Sam5
2009-Mar-12, 12:03 AM
These are very interesting personal stories and eyewitness accounts.

NosePicker
2009-Mar-15, 12:59 AM
My biggest concern about illegal Mexican immigration is what may be immigrating alongside with the Mexicans seeking to make money to send back to their families back home.

Not all are Mexican and not all are seeking to make money. Some are Middle Eastern radical Muslim with terrorist intentions or other nasties. Some are drug mules. You name it.

megrfl
2009-Mar-15, 02:34 AM
The U.S.-Mexico border areas have been increasingly impacted by illegal activities.
What to do?

Good news, maybe...


CIUDAD JUAREZ, Mexico - Mexico deployed 2,000 troops to this embattled northern border city Friday to reinforce a crackdown against drug gangs.

Another 3,000 soldiers will arrived in Ciudad Juarez, across the border from El Paso, Texas, by Sunday, said Enrique Torres, the spokesman for a joint military-police operation in Chihuahua state, where the city of 1.3 million people is located.

With the additional troops, the city will be patrolled by 8,500 soldiers and 2,300 federal agents, Torres said. He said that the troops and federal agents will take control of the local police department, the state prison and even the traffic division as part of a new strategy to combat spiking violence.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29690370/

Sam5
2009-Mar-15, 04:01 AM
Added: These are two YouTube news reports about shootouts between the Mexican military and drug cartel people:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiX1vtnZ4Uk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NN3i8_8NxUs&feature=related

RalofTyr
2009-Mar-15, 06:52 AM
The main problem, is the Mexican government can't control what's going on.


That that leads us to wonder...who is in control?

Tinaa
2009-Mar-15, 02:06 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiX1vtnZ4Uk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NN3i8_8NxUs&feature=related

Please don't just post links without a description.

flynjack1
2009-Mar-15, 02:23 PM
I read somewhere that the Cartels have approximately 100,000 foot soldiers, the Mexican Army consist of 130,000 soldiers. Recently "Chapo" Guzman(Sinaloa Cartel) was listed among the worlds top Billionaires. If the cartels were to team up it would be a very grave challenge for the Mexican Govt. Currently the violence is at the same intensity of last year (~6000/yr). Calderon has denied that the stability of Mexico is at risk (even acknowledging this concern is worrisome). Meanwhile back at the ranch, the DHS is stating they will soon have a strategy in place regarding the increasing violence in Mexico. Top U.S. military commanders have been meeting with Mexican officials to see what assistance they may offer. I worry that some may not realize the extent to which all levels of government in Mexico have been infiltrated by cartel members. So it goes, more to be announced in the next few weeks.

Sam5
2009-Mar-15, 10:25 PM
Please don't just post links without a description.

Oh, ok. Sorry.

I went back and added a description.

sarongsong
2009-Mar-18, 09:47 AM
"...90% of cartels' weapons come from the U.S...marijuana is by far the major trafficked drug..."

March 17, 2009
Senate Judiciary Committee
Mexican Drug Cartels
Witnesses testified about the recent violence in Mexico stemming from clashes between rival drug cartels, law enforcement responses in Mexico and the U.S. to both violence and drug trafficking, and the impact on boarder security policy. (2 hours)
C-SPAN (http://www.c-spanarchives.org/library/index.php?main_page=product_video_info&products_id=284678-1)
March 8, 2009: U.S. Citizen Decapitated in Tijuana (http://www.sandiego6.com/news/local/story/U-S-Citizen-Decapitated-in-Tijuana/Tlaw_Fm0C0qwvQNjNfmz5Q.cspx)

BigDon
2009-Mar-19, 10:25 PM
Yeah, because I'm going to commit first degree murder over five dollars worth of tools :rolleyes:

So how much is your honor and integrity worth then Ral? If you don't have either, I'll understand.

sarongsong
2009-Mar-20, 12:48 AM
"Mystery train rolling down the track"
March 19, 2009
FEDERAL COURT — Federal prosecutors filed civil lawsuits against the Union Pacific railroad company yesterday seeking $37 million in penalties it says the company owes for allowing loads of drugs to be smuggled on its cars into the country, mostly through Calexico...the federal Tariff Act...says the owners of any vehicle or “person in charge” of any vehicle coming into the country where illegal drugs are found are on the hook for civil penalties...
San Diego Union-Tribune (http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/mar/19/1m19train224750-suit-accuses-union-pacific-role-dr/?uniontrib)

flynjack1
2009-Mar-20, 03:29 AM
Whats worse is these are trains that parallel the border(not cross it) the smugglers cross it then put the contraband on the trains.....lots of trains relatively few railroad detectives. Bummer for the railroad guys.

BigDon
2009-Mar-20, 06:38 AM
Some folks, via PM, think I'm being harsH on Ral.

I'm in the same line of work.

The shipper, our customers, pay a minimum of 1,200 to 5,000 U.S. dollars to see that their personel possesions make it to the other end of the line. 5 dollars in tools? Bullsuger, you can't get a single decent screwdriver for that amount of money. It isn't about the tools. It's weither or not you are a punk.

If you can't take the criminals, you don't work for that outfit. I quit my first outfit, Peeter's Allied, now Peeter's Atlas, because they wanted me to do evictions. They wanted me to put a single mother of four out on the street, two weeks before Christmas. :silenced: that! Your company ain't worth working for if they are having you do that!

But quiting there put me in AMS Relocation, a Bekins outfit. And by not being afraid of human trash I got to meet some remarkable human beings and their property. Every seen stuff writing by Darwin himself? Fine art by the architects of the skyscrappers of your home town? Every seen a wine cellar that took five professional movers three days to load into a truck?

Ral won't either.

BigDon
2009-Mar-22, 10:39 AM
Hey Ral, on second and third thought I'm being a jerk and a bully.

You know what you need to do to keep yourself safe in your part of the world. And you don't come here to catch crap from me. Pardon the trolling.