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Plat
2003-Dec-02, 10:40 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3251382.stm

George
2003-Dec-02, 11:59 PM
No wonder I can't find M57, it's moved around Vega! :)

That is a cool article and I like the audio addition as well (upper right-hand corner). 8)

[I wonder if we can get an audio clip of our BA Dr. Plait??? That would even be cooler! Can he do a British accent, too? \:D/ ]

There appears to be two clumps in the disk but I am unclear as to what they are. Are the clumps suppose to be proto Neptune-like planets or is the clear central region clear due to planets within this region, or are both thoughts correct?

Vega is 2.5x's the Sun in mass and 40x to 50x brighter, so can't interferometry see this large disc or is it too far infrared only?

Amadeus
2003-Dec-03, 12:07 PM
Arrrrrrrrrrgh! #-o

Sat for 2 hours in the &*$%£-ing cinema only to find out the aliens were her dad!

Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh! #-o

p.s Wasn't vega just a relay point for the signal?

Richard of Chelmsford
2003-Dec-03, 12:44 PM
[I wonder if we can get an audio clip of our BA Dr. Plait??? That would even be cooler! Can he do a British accent, too? \:D/ ]



I can do a British accent!!

But all the blokes in films with British accents are baddies. #-o

George
2003-Dec-03, 01:56 PM
I can do a British accent!!

But all the blokes in films with British accents are baddies. #-o

You mean like 007 (Sean Connery). :roll:

Mainframes
2003-Dec-03, 02:05 PM
[I wonder if we can get an audio clip of our BA Dr. Plait??? That would even be cooler! Can he do a British accent, too? \:D/ ]


I have his coast2coast vs nancy mp3 on my computer at home somewhere. Sure I could take a snippit and make it avalable as a sound bite of the BA 8) .

Ikyoto
2003-Dec-03, 04:06 PM
Connery is Scotish. Call him British to his face and he'll rip yours off.

SciFi Chick
2003-Dec-03, 04:16 PM
Connery is Scotish. Call him British to his face and he'll rip yours off.

Connery is also British. Now, he might get upset if you mistake him for English.

Amadeus
2003-Dec-03, 04:32 PM
Connery is Scotish. Call him British to his face and he'll rip yours off.

Connery is also British. Now, he might get upset if you mistake him for English.

Nope he's a member and spokesman for the Scotish Nationist Party
and wants seperation from the united kingdom.

He would not call himself British!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here endith the lesson

SciFi Chick
2003-Dec-03, 04:42 PM
Connery is Scotish. Call him British to his face and he'll rip yours off.

Connery is also British. Now, he might get upset if you mistake him for English.

Nope he's a member and spokesman for the Scotish Nationist Party
and wants seperation from the united kingdom.

He would not call himself British!

I did not even know they had a Scottish Nationalist Party that wanted separation. I thought it was just the Irish that wanted to be separate. That's good to know. Still, whether he would call himself British or not is neither nere nor there. He is a British citizen I would imagine. Thus, his accent does qualify as British. :D



Here endith the lesson

If you're going to be nitpicky and talk about "lessons", here's a spelling one: endeth. :wink:

Edited to point out something that just occurred to me:

James Bond IS most definitely British whether Sean Connery is or not, and that's who was originally being referred to. =D>

George
2003-Dec-03, 04:57 PM
[I wonder if we can get an audio clip of our BA Dr. Plait??? That would even be cooler! Can he do a British accent, too? \:D/ ]


I have his coast2coast vs nancy mp3 on my computer at home somewhere. Sure I could take a snippit and make it avalable as a sound bite of the BA 8) .

That would be great but can you incorporate it in here?

George
2003-Dec-03, 05:16 PM
Connery is Scotish. Call him British to his face and he'll rip yours off.

Connery is also British. Now, he might get upset if you mistake him for English.

Nope he's a member and spokesman for the Scotish Nationist Party
and wants seperation from the united kingdom.

He would not call himself British!

I did not even know they had a Scottish Nationalist Party that wanted separation. I thought it was just the Irish that wanted to be separate. That's good to know. Still, whether he would call himself British or not is neither nere nor there. He is a British citizen I would imagine. Thus, his accent does qualify as British. :D



Here endith the lesson

If you're going to be nitpicky and talk about "lessons", here's a spelling one: endeth. :wink:

"Endith" is the British way. :lol: [ok, just kidding but it kind'a sounds that way].



James Bond IS most definitely British whether Sean Connery is or not, and that's who was originally being referred to. =D>

He,he...My original intent was to see how fast I would get a stir by calling a Scotshman a Britt (also giving credence to Richard's claim .... "But all the blokes in films with British accents are baddies."). I am assuming that "baddies" refers to poor British accents in films.

Shucks, just gander at what'a gall-durn mess they've made of my Texas slang in HollerWood. Yeah, there-ya-go! :roll:

SciFi Chick
2003-Dec-03, 05:35 PM
"Endith" is the British way. :lol: [ok, just kidding but it kind'a sounds that way].

:lol: My next question to him was going to be, "Are you practicing your British accent?




Shucks, just gander at what'a gall-durn mess they've made of my Texas slang in HollerWood. Yeah, there-ya-go! :roll:

This should probably be in Babbling by now, but, I once did a monolog in an acting class using a British accent that all of my American friends thought was fantastic. It so happened that a British fellow was in the class, so the teacher asked him to critique my accent. His response was, "It doesn't sound like any English accent, but I like it because this character was only pretending to be English." :oops:

Can you say mortified? I thought I was doing a good cockney. In the future, I shall stick with my goddess-given southern accent. :lol:

George
2003-Dec-03, 05:48 PM
This should probably be in Babbling by now, but, I once did a monolog in an acting class using a British accent that all of my American friends thought was fantastic. It so happened that a British fellow was in the class, so the teacher asked him to critique my accent. His response was, "It doesn't sound like any English accent, but I like it because this character was only pretending to be English." :oops:

Can you say mortified? I thought I was doing a good cockney. In the future, I shall stick with my goddess-given southern accent. :lol:

This is definetly Babbling by now. So no more after this...I knew a girl who went back to England on vaction after having moved here a year earlier and she came back to Texas telling how much criticism she took for her accent. :lol:

TillEulenspiegel
2003-Dec-03, 10:10 PM
This stuff is old news, there have many planetary systems discovered since the first was discovered in 1984 van Biesbroeck 8, sience that there have been many more systems discovered. Most compainions have the mass of many Jupiters , which is not to say that is the norm for the makeup of a solar system , it is rather a function of our ability to have resoloutions fine ehough to observe orbital purterbations or occlusions of much smaller bodies.

Man how do You guys jump from an ET question to a British ( sorry Scottish) dialect of a movie star ???

George
2003-Dec-03, 10:47 PM
This stuff is old news, there have many planetary systems discovered since the first was discovered in 1984 van Biesbroeck 8, sience that there have been many more systems discovered. Most compainions have the mass of many Jupiters , which is not to say that is the norm for the makeup of a solar system , it is rather a function of our ability to have resoloutions fine ehough to observe orbital purterbations or occlusions of much smaller bodies.

True, but how many look as cool as Vega's? Even if it is infrared, it is significantly better than an orbital wiggle or a variable light curve. :)

I still would guess it should be large enough for optical interferometry though I haven't calculated it's angular size. My guess is it is too faint in the visible spectrum.


Man how do You guys jump from an ET question to a British ( sorry Scottish) dialect of a movie star ???

You are quite right old chap! Pretty odd. :-k

Alex W.
2003-Dec-03, 10:52 PM
Yeeessshhh, it's a right old pickle... :D

George
2003-Dec-03, 11:33 PM
Yeeessshhh, it's a right old pickle... :D

I suppose it is a bit scientific afterall....translation. :) :-&

You just have to keep calm in these situations and hope it dissipates. :-$

Richard of Chelmsford
2003-Dec-04, 01:25 AM
He,he...My original intent was to see how fast I would get a stir by calling a Scotshman a Britt (also giving credence to Richard's claim .... "But all the blokes in films with British accents are baddies."). I am assuming that "baddies" refers to poor British accents in films.



No, old boy. A 'baddie' is the Brit expression for a 'bad guy' in films or the British characters are bad. All the British actors are 'bad guys' in films, such as Hannibal Lecter..a British actor acting an American (naturalised) in Silence of the Lambs. Or John Lithgow, an American actor being a Brit person in 'Cliffhanger.' Both baddies.

Actually I made a list of all the American actors who have acted British regional dialects in films..most of them are phenomenally good.

Will post it tomorrow.

And Connery?

Yes, he's Scottish...listen to the way he says 'Poosy Galoor' in Goldfinger. And he's a Scottish Nationalist, but it didn't stop him from accepting a knighthood, which is existentially British.

But then, who would have argued with him? Not me, Yank boys. :wink:

Richard of Chelmsford
2003-Dec-04, 01:29 AM
Can you say mortified? I thought I was doing a good cockney. In the future, I shall stick with my goddess-given southern accent. :lol:

Actually I live in Chelmsford (home of Marconi) which is only 35 miles from London, but I can't do a Cockney accent (Bob Hoskins has the best one.) And my wife is a Cockney.

It's a VERY hard accent to do.

My accent is North of England, like the Beatles.

Richard of Chelmsford
2003-Dec-04, 01:25 PM
If the BA will allow us to digress from astronomy to films for a moment (marginally in keeping with the topic),may I as a British person pay tribute to American (and a couple of other nationals) for their prtrayals of regional British people with local accents?

All are MUCH better than Michael Caine's terrible portrayal of a Texian! :lol:

1) Stephen Dorff.

He did a Liverpool (scouse, after a local dish, lobscouse) accent in 'Backbeat' about the early days of the Beatles. The accent is rather strangulated, with the 'er' sound pronounced 'air' so that 'Germans' becomes 'Gairmans', plus an 'h' sound inserted near the end of some syllables, so that 'Backbeat' becomes 'Bahckbeat.' Also a rolling of the r's.
Like Sir Paul McCartney.

Dorff was so good I thought he was a real scouser.

2) Mel Gibson.

Scottish in 'Braveheart.'
Plus others such as Orson Welles, Roddy McDowell and James Doohan 'Beam me up Scotty, Armand Assante in 'Kidnapped.'

3) Donald Sutherland.

He did a North of England accent in 'Revolution.'

In the North of England they use the Irish U-sound, so that 'come' becomes 'coom' and 'bus' becomes 'boos', and the flat American A-sound, so that 'bath' is 'bath' and not 'barth' as in the South.
Like British soap opera 'Coronation Street.'

Also Lisa Eichorn in 'Yanks.'

4) John Lithgow.

Aristocratic English in 'Cliffhanger'

Also, Orson Welles in 'Jane Eyre' and Jack Palance.

5) Dick Van Dyke.

He ATTEMPTED a Cockney accent in 'Mary Poppins' but it was abysmal!

6) Meryl Streep.

Standard English in 'The French Leiutenant's Woman'.

She was brilliant, as always.

Also, Richard Gere in 'The Honorary Consul.'

7) Charleton Heston.

Did a West Country accent in 'Treasure Island'

This accent defies description..it's a sort of British equivilant to the 'hick' accents you hear on Huckleberry Finn type films.

They say 'Ooh arr' a lot and 'Oi' for 'I' with a very long 'A' sound. 'THis aaaccent defois description.'

Heston was very good at it.

8) William Hurt.

Did a Welsh accent in a film (can't find the title) in which he played an unmarried anorak type of chap who adopted a boy with difficulties.
Like Sir Anthony Hopkins.

9) Mickey O'Rourke.

Northern Ireland accent in 'A Prayer for the Dying.'

Like politicians Gerry Adams and Dr Ian Paisley.

Finally and best of all, the Oscar goes to...

10) Harvey Keitel.

He did a brilliant Newcastle (Geordie, after a common local boy's name) accent in 'The Piano.' Goodness knows who coached him.

Once again the accent defies description. Flat vowels..'I don't know' becomes 'Ah doon't knoow' plus some words altered. Sometimes consonants missing from the middle of words. 'Two crates of Newcastle Brown Ale' becomes 'Two creyts ah New'astle broon eyl.'

Like the singer Sting, on a bad day.

All I can say is 'Well done, Yanks!'

One more bit of funnyness.

Here's a dialect sentance from Carlisle, England.

What does it translate to?

'Wad ta licka la'al locka yam-yad broon breed?' :lol: :lol: :lol:

gethen
2003-Dec-04, 02:18 PM
This (http://movies.yahoo.com/shop?d=hc&id=1800019113&cf=biog&intl=us) may explain Mel Gibson's ability to do languages. He was born in the U.S. but raised in Australia.
Boy, is this OT.

George
2003-Dec-04, 02:32 PM
What does it translate to?
'Wad ta licka la'al locka yam-yad broon breed?' :lol: :lol: :lol:

Got me, padner. Something about wanting brown bread?

My problem is learning an entire language (Tex-Mex) as many people do not speak English of any style. I have learned to be very careful about using my limited Spanish. When I visited a State department head in Mexico, I caught his rath when he learned I had been calling his son a "buzzard" all day. His son drove us to distant Mayan ruins at 160 km/h and I thought I was asking him to be careful with his driving. :lol:

I, and likely most in the U.S., tend to take much less interest in the cultural heritage that is personified in one's dialect. Maybe it's the "melting pot" thing. Regardless, the few Europeans I know do show much interest in it and I am pleased you do.

[So much for dissipating our digression.] :)

George
2003-Dec-04, 02:43 PM
Does anyone know, off hand, what the latest best resolution is for visibile light? I am curious about how close we are to getting better views of accretion disks.

russ_watters
2003-Dec-04, 03:13 PM
p.s Wasn't vega just a relay point for the signal? Yep - just another stop on the subway.

SciFi Chick
2003-Dec-04, 03:39 PM
p.s Wasn't vega just a relay point for the signal? Yep - just another stop on the subway.

Then, to bring us fully back on topic, the answer to the original question posed in this thread is: Yes and No. :wink:

semi-sentient
2003-Dec-04, 04:48 PM
I would say no life exists in the Vegan system because the star system is only 350 million years old. At that age, wouldn't it still contain a large number of planetesimals(sp?)? If life sprung up that quickly, I'd imagine it wouldn't take long for that life to be wiped out, as the inner planets are surely growing from the remaining debree. Also, with Vega being considerably larger than our own Sun, wouldn't it be more difficult for life to evolve on the terrestrial planets (assuming their solar system layout is similar to ours) because of the higher energy output from Vega? Would the inner planets be similar to Mercury and Venus ... either dried up or extremely heated due to a runaway green house effect? 8-[

TillEulenspiegel
2003-Dec-04, 11:53 PM
Vega is a young 100 MYrs. class A0 star with 3x the mass of Sol which is an unremarkable G2 star in young-middle age. The surface mean Temp~9900 k while Sol is ~6000k. The star has a huge radius that precludes the formation of close inner orbit planets, the existing one(s) would nessecarily be outer orbit gas giants and the existence of any life ( and some common compounds) is almost dismissable as the amount of radiation from this star is immense. The class of star also means it will enjoy a short life, so that would preclude any development of life as we know it.

The film Contact ( which my wife and I worked on )utilized travel of vast distances based on an idea developed by Kip Thorne ( and an un remembered co-contributer). It was motivated by a call from Carl Sagan to Kip that he need an plausible mechanism to explain apparent FTL travel. Thorn went on to develop a solid ( which has become science) approach using an Einstein-Rosen wormhole to explain the apparent violation. The film obviously took "artistic liberty" . The book is a good guide to the ..err.. Realities of Carl's vision.

sol_g2v
2003-Dec-05, 02:01 AM
I don''t see how the the radius has any effect on planet orbits closer to the star. Vega is only 3x diameter of our sun (from stellar.database.com). That wouldn't have any effect on the orbits of the inner planets in our own solar system. Even Mercury is tens of millions of miles from the sun. As far as radiation and stellar lifetime is concerned, while intelligent life is probably out of the question, maybe not microbial life, and in any event all statements about evolutionary timescales are pure speculation until we have more than one data point.

TillEulenspiegel
2003-Dec-05, 06:42 PM
I don't think your seeing the picture , Murcury and Venus are what they are in thier orbits nexst to a mild well behaved G2 star , not only could they not stay in thier orbits because of gravitational attraction )the mass of Vega is 2.6 to 3.1 of Sol's) , but if they could they would blasted clean by scorching radiation. Another concideration a bit more spectulitive but still real would be the "atmospheric" drag, altho not a real atmosphere more an extention of the photosphere and the particles being expelled from the star (aka solar wind )would cause a kind of drag that would also effect it's orbit. Like a NEO sattilites that slow down because of drag and gravity, altho the effect would hard to measure against the massive gravitational attraction . One could hash out the math by figuring out the amount of ejecta based on the assumed mass/density, magnitude and then fudgeing out the G factor I suppose ...I'm too lazy.

As far as the question of life the phrase I used was "life as we know it" and that's pretty much a certainty.

Vega specs: http://www.solstation.com/stars/vega.htm

George
2003-Dec-05, 11:32 PM
A discussion on the dynamics of the early accretion disc would be interesting. On the one hand, Vega's gravitational field (due to the extra mass) should have dominated an area around a Mercury orbit. On the other hand, the likely reason Vega became so massive was probably the size of the accretion disk itself which might have spawned an early planet in a Mercury orbit. This planet would have had to develop fast I suspect as radiation and photon pressure alone would be significant to its forming.

TillEulenspiegel
2003-Dec-06, 12:38 AM
Maybe, but the spectrografic signature of Vega shows an extreme scarcity of heavy elements. I would be interested in the analysis of the companion giant , thats probably where the heavy elements of the solar rockpile wound up.

sol_g2v
2003-Dec-06, 01:59 AM
I don't think your seeing the picture , Murcury and Venus are what they are in thier orbits nexst to a mild well behaved G2 star , not only could they not stay in thier orbits because of gravitational attraction )the mass of Vega is 2.6 to 3.1 of Sol's) , but if they could they would blasted clean by scorching radiation.

I don't understand this statement. Why couldn't they stay in the orbits? What does "blasted clean by scorching radiation" mean? There are a several exoplanets discovered which orbit far closer to their star than Mercury, like Ups And b, Tau Boo b, and they are in stable orbits and maintain their atmospheres. The amount of sunlight received is the inverse of distance squared, if light at Earth =1, so for Mercury that is 1/0.4^2=6.25. That's hardly an overwhelming number.

The corona of the sun extends at most a few tens of millions of kilometers from the the photosphere, nowhere near close to Mercury. I'm sure Vega is proportionately similar. So atmospheric drag is not an issue. And Poynting-Robertson drag is insignificant for objects bigger than a dust particle. In any event, that HZ for something like Vega is 7 AU, nowhere near close to the star.

ljbrs
2003-Dec-06, 02:22 AM
I voted "NO". This matter was handled years and years ago with the "Cold Fusion" fiasco. I have not heard that the verdict has changed since then in the scientific community.

NO. NO. NO. NO.

Somebody is making a joke. Long live humor!

ljbrs [-X

sol_g2v
2003-Dec-06, 02:25 AM
I voted "NO". This matter was handled years and years ago with the "Cold Fusion" fiasco. I have not heard that the verdict has changed since then in the scientific community.

NO. NO. NO. NO.

Somebody is making a joke. Long live humor!

ljbrs [-X

Are you posting in the right thread? 8-[

ljbrs
2003-Dec-06, 02:37 AM
Sorry:

However, the movie could not be true. It is a movie, n'est ce pas. It is not intended to be true (except by Carl Sagan's wife). It was a nice movie, but it was fiction, all of the way through.

ljbrs

Richard of Chelmsford
2003-Dec-06, 02:42 AM
What does it translate to?
'Wad ta licka la'al locka yam-yad broon breed?' :lol: :lol: :lol:

Got me, padner. Something about wanting brown bread?



Just about.

'Would you like a little bit of home made brown bread,' :lol:

George
2003-Dec-06, 05:17 AM
What does it translate to?
'Wad ta licka la'al locka yam-yad broon breed?' :lol: :lol: :lol:

Got me, padner. Something about wanting brown bread?



Just about.

'Would you like a little bit of home made brown bread,' :lol:

I would have never got it. :)

How many dialects are there in Britian?

TillEulenspiegel
2003-Dec-06, 09:02 PM
I don't think your seeing the picture , Murcury and Venus are what they are in thier orbits nexst to a mild well behaved G2 star , not only could they not stay in thier orbits because of gravitational attraction )the mass of Vega is 2.6 to 3.1 of Sol's) , but if they could they would blasted clean by scorching radiation.

I don't understand this statement. Why couldn't they stay in the orbits? What does "blasted clean by scorching radiation" mean? There are a several exoplanets discovered which orbit far closer to their star than Mercury, like Ups And b, Tau Boo b, and they are in stable orbits and maintain their atmospheres. The amount of sunlight received is the inverse of distance squared, if light at Earth =1, so for Mercury that is 1/0.4^2=6.25. That's hardly an overwhelming number.

The corona of the sun extends at most a few tens of millions of kilometers from the photosphere, nowhere near close to Mercury. I'm sure Vega is proportionately similar. So atmospheric drag is not an issue. And Poynting-Robertson drag is insignificant for objects bigger than a dust particle. In any event, that HZ for something like Vega is 7 AU, nowhere near close to the star.

I'm not sure how you can quote concepts that require a higher understanding of physical properties and not understand the relationship of gravitational attraction between bodies. The Newtonian gravitational formula is available on any good web site but I will state it
here : F= (G*M1*M2)/R^2
Where G= grav constant M1= mass of body 1, M2= mass of body 2, R =distance between the bodies.
If you do not understand that there is a vast difference of the gravitational impact of an object 3x the sun's diameter and 3x it's density on a body mercury's size, density and orbit as verses the sun's then you need to familiarize yourself with the concept.

There are several orbital path sims on the net that allow you to plug in data for the bodies and watch the subsequent effects of varied mass,density,distance time, ect. Find one and plug in these numbers.

Mercury mass=3.30200 × 10^23 kilograms, orbit ( averaged)=57MKm, Rad 2430 Km, Ov 47870M/s
Sun Mass 1.98892 * 10^30, Rad 7e5Km
Vega Mass 5.96676 * 10^30 Rad 21e5Km

The math puts the numbers such:
Gravitational attraction F= 4.04656995 × 1030 m3 kg-1 s-2 Vega/Merc
Gravitational attraction F=1.34885665 × 1030 m3 kg-1 s-2 Sol/Merc
In Newtons
1.348250240467836e-33 Sol
4.044750721403508e-33 Vega
( The difference is an artifact of the process, one used a manual calculator the other was a Java applet. The orbit of Murcury is actually elliptical so the sim won't get it exactly correct, also the sim assumes when you use the Vega data that the planet and it's orbit already exists, the heavy material that composes Mecury would probably have been swallowed up before it could ever form a planet.)


As far as the other extra solar planets you site you are incorrect, both are Jovian giants 3-4 times larger at a greater distance then mercury ( probably past the actual Jovian orbit ) and at a much higher orbital velocity. They hold no relevance with the regards to our discussion. The other topic I mentioned is not Poynting-Robertson but as that was an insignificant point I mentioned in an attempt to be through and is really not pertinent to the major point of g (Fgrav) it can be dismissed. I also never mentioned sunlight but I did say radiation ( which would be a "soup" of particals, x-rays,gamma rays AND photons) Output (in Watts ) of Sol Wps=3.9*10^26 , Vega Wps= 1.95 * 10^28
NOT a small difference , especially to a body only 57MKm away.

Richard of Chelmsford
2003-Dec-06, 11:44 PM
What does it translate to?
'Wad ta licka la'al locka yam-yad broon breed?' :lol: :lol: :lol:

Got me, padner. Something about wanting brown bread?



Just about.

'Would you like a little bit of home made brown bread,' :lol:

I would have never got it. :)

How many dialects are there in Britian?

About as many as there are languages in New Guinea, often with only a few miles between them.

Even I don't know them all and I've visited every town and city in Britain.

sol_g2v
2003-Dec-07, 12:15 AM
I'm not sure how you can quote concepts that require a higher understanding of physical properties and not understand the relationship of gravitational attraction between bodies. The Newtonian gravitational formula is available on any good web site but I will state it
here : F= (G*M1*M2)/R^2
Where G= grav constant M1= mass of body 1, M2= mass of body 2, R =distance between the bodies.
If you do not understand that there is a vast difference of the gravitational impact of an object 3x the sun's diameter and 3x it's density on a body mercury's size, density and orbit as verses the sun's then you need to familiarize yourself with the concept.

I am familiar with the physics. I am disputing your statement that Vega's "huge radius precludes the formation of close inner planets". Close obviously needs to be more tightly defined, but I fail to see how the radius has anything to do with it. You have also stated that Vega's increased gravitational attraction would not allow objects to maintain their orbits, and when I asked you to clarify then you proceeded to quote me the universal law of gravitation. An increase in mass will result in an increase in orbital velocity. If you wish to assert that diameter and density affect the gravitational force, please tell which terms in the equation stipulate them. (It's not R, because that is the distance between cm). Besides I have doubts that the density of Vega is 3x that of sun, as larger stars generally have less density than smaller ones. Why don't you cite the paper which shows that stars with Vega's general parameters is incapable of having planets interior to those already presumed, so that I can look it up and read it for myself. As well, you should immediately contact Mark Wyatt at the Royal Observatory in Edinburgh, as he seems to think rocky planets closer to the star are possible.


As far as the other extra solar planets you site you are incorrect, both are Jovian giants 3-4 times larger at a greater distance then mercury ( probably past the actual Jovian orbit ) and at a much higher orbital velocity. They hold no relevance with the regards to our discussion.

They certainly have much higher orbital velocity, but not because they are farther from the parent star, which is a non-sensical statement as orbital velocity decreases with increasing distance. Tau Boo b has semimajor axis of 0.05 AU. Ups And b has a semi-major axis of 0.059. Both values are substantially less than that for Mercury. And both of these stars are more massive than the sun. There are other examples.

TillEulenspiegel
2003-Dec-07, 04:51 AM
[quote]I'm not sure how you can quote concepts that require a higher understanding of physical properties and not understand the relationship of gravitational attraction between bodies. The Newtonian gravitational formula is available on any good web site but I will state it
here : F= (G*M1*M2)/R^2
Where G= grav constant M1= mass of body 1, M2= mass of body 2, R =distance between the bodies.
If you do not understand that there is a vast difference of the gravitational impact of an object 3x the sun's diameter and 3x it's density on a body mercury's size, density and orbit as verses the sun's then you need to familiarize yourself with the concept.

I am familiar with the physics.

Perhaps you are but you don't seem to understand them.

I am disputing your statement that Vega's "huge radius precludes the formation of close inner planets". Close obviously needs to be more tightly defined, but I fail to see how the radius has anything to do with it.

The planet we were talking about was Mercury, in its given orbit 57MKm. Radius is 1/2 a diameter, the diameter is a strait chord through the center of a body , the body in question is a sphere, a sphere has a universal relationship with the radius and the number Pi. The number pi =3.1459 and continues on for infinity.. The relationship between r and Pi in reference to a sphere is represented by C=Pi * r^2 Where C= the circumference of the sphere. The circumference of a sphere is the perimeter of a circle and can be used to find the volume of said sphere. Now I'm tired of being a ******** , shall we cut to the chase?, or shall I plod on with 7th grade science?

The fact is Vega is the approximate mass/density of Sol but IT IS 3 TIMES LARGER...get it? In other words the attributes like Fgrav is ( in a close approximation) 3 times as large on an Murcuric object of same composition and orbit.

You have also stated that Vega's increased gravitational attraction would not allow objects to maintain their orbits, and when I asked you to clarify then you proceeded to quote me the universal law of gravitation.

Well you should use it. I argued with your contention that mercury ( or similar) not " objects " could exist at the same orbit ( not undefined orbits) around Vega as it does around Sol. I gave you numbers for simulations that could be used for a correct sim and a caveat of merc's orbit elepticallity and presupposition of existence.

An increase in mass will result in an increase in orbital velocity. If you wish to assert that diameter and density affect the gravitational force, please tell which terms in the equation stipulate them.

The formula uses M1 and M2, M=Mass if we to try to equate the mass of Sol spread throughout , say the inner orbit of Venus , the Fgrav on Earth would be incredibly less and Earth would eventually sail off because the force is so diffuse the reverse is true of a black hole ( a singularity at it's center ) it has an infinite amount of mass with zero volume ( a mathmatical abstraction, if you don't understand it look it up )and can attract things with greater F then the sun or Vega . That's a reason mass/density is often used, the reason I mentioned radius was because the mass/density difference for any arbitrary volume between Sol and Vega is ~0

. Besides I have doubts that the density of Vega is 3x that of sun, as larger stars generally have less density than smaller ones.

Was a typo meant mass.

.

Why don't you cite the paper which shows that stars with Vega's general parameters is incapable of having planets interior to those already presumed, so that I can look it up and read it for myself.

I never said that, my claim was the existence of a mercury object at the same orbit at Vega.


As well, you should immediately contact Mark Wyatt at the Royal Observatory in Edinburgh, as he seems to think rocky planets closer to the star are possible.

Don't know the gent, many things are possible , some less plausible then others, claims require evidence, even one's by scholastics.

As far as the other extra solar planets you site you are incorrect, both are Jovian giants 3-4 times larger at a greater distance then mercury ( probably past the actual Jovian orbit ) and at a much higher orbital velocity. They hold no relevance with the regards to our discussion

They certainly have much higher orbital velocity, but not because they are farther from the parent star, which is a non-sensical statement as orbital velocity decreases with increasing distance. Tau Boo b has semimajor axis of 0.05 AU. Ups And b has a semi-major axis of 0.059. Both values are substantially less than that for Mercury. And both of these stars are more massive than the sun. There are other examples

Ahh I see the screw up.................

Tau Boötis A is an F7 star ,Tau Boötis B is a red dwarf star and not a planetary companion to TBa

Upsilon Andromedae A is F8, star.Upsilon Andromedae B is a red dwarf and not a planetary companion to UAa

You nomenclature led to my confusion, I wrote from memory and remembered "dwarf" for both companion stars but remembered "brown" and distances incorrectly (which is what many claim that multiples of jovian masses represent - brown dwarfs). I did look up the data and they are both ~4* jovian masses . Neither of the stars are comparable to Vega and the only thing that keeps the planetary companions in orbit ( for a time ) is thier mass and translated centripetal force, however since they are losing mass quickly ( from your inconsequential solar wind as an ablative agent ) they eventually will become star food ( and as an aside are not conducive to life as we know it) and as I said hold no relevance even tho the orbits are closer then mercury. They are a separate case.



edit 1 sp
edit 2 sp
edit3 to add: I see where you got your incorrect understanding of the minor point I raised as to the ablative effects of solar ejecta in the form of particals and radiation as an effect on an close orbiting body from your sited reference ..Mark Wyatt's own site:

"Stellar Wind and Lorentz Forces - These are forces that are normally ignored when modelling debris disks. In the case of the zodiacal cloud it is certainly true that they can be ignored: stellar wind forces (which act like Poynting-Robertson drag to make the particles spiral into the star) are 1/3 as strong os those from radiation forces, Lorentz forces are also substantially lower than other perturbing forces (except maybe in the outer solar system). However, this rationale may not be applicable to dust around other main sequence stars where these forces may even dominate the dust's evolution; but we do not generally know the structure and magnitude of a star's wind, nor do we know the structure of its magnetic field. "
This paragraph is in relevence to accreation disks of dust particals and as such inapplicipable to our senerio. Notice tho his reference to radiational effects. You may want to google less .

Reacher
2003-Dec-07, 05:47 PM
Back to Yanks doing accents, Brad Pitt did a very, VERY good Pykie accent in Snatch. What's a Pykie accent? As Turkish said:

"It's not English... An' it's not Irish... It's... Well... Pykie..."

Anyone seen that movie? 8) Bullet Tooth Tony. 8) 8) Cousin Avi 8) :D Tyrone :D ... What a movie...

Edit: Sorry to jump back off topic like that, but I just read through the entire thread, and the early parts had me convinced to post this already, before the thread got back on track.

TillEulenspiegel
2003-Dec-07, 08:07 PM
You want a hoot? Do See the movie with Brad Pitt as a gypsy you can't understand a damn thing he says..."yaliick daggs?" HUH?..."Daggs maan daggs"
OH! dogs, yes i like dogs.
What do I call you tony the tooth?Mr. Tooth?..Hell you can call me susan as long as ya pay me.

edit to add .......And the DOG! damn thing had me in stiches ..squeek,squeek..

SollyLama
2003-Dec-09, 06:12 PM
Well, at least Kevin costner had the decency to not even try to attempt a british accent for Robin Hood. The same can't be said for his abuse of the American Southern accent in JFK.

Now if someone would just teach him to act......

SciFi Chick
2003-Dec-09, 06:26 PM
Well, at least Kevin costner had the decency to not even try to attempt a british accent for Robin Hood. The same can't be said for his abuse of the American Southern accent in JFK.

Now if someone would just teach him to act......

Actually, he did try to to do an English accent. It was in and out through the whole movie, and terrible.

And his southern accent in The War was magnificent. I can't remember what he sounded like in JFK, but he'a a great actor, just not in every role.

semi-sentient
2003-Dec-09, 06:29 PM
You want a hoot? Do See the movie with Brad Pitt as a gypsy you can't understand a damn thing he says..."yaliick daggs?" HUH?..."Daggs maan daggs"
OH! dogs, yes i like dogs.
What do I call you tony the tooth?Mr. Tooth?..Hell you can call me susan as long as ya pay me.

edit to add .......And the DOG! damn thing had me in stiches ..squeek,squeek..

That would be Snatch! Great movie!

TillEulenspiegel
2003-Dec-09, 07:35 PM
Ya I have it on VHS ans DVD , bad syntax on my part.

Off-Off topic My new favoriate movie, Dogma. First time I saw it I spewed coka cola from my nose. Chris Rock as the black 13th apostle, ben afflic and matt damon as exiled angles , god is a woman, alan rickman as god's intercessionary, george carlin as a catholic cardinal. Impiety, existential asides, causality loops, religious critisisem, irreverence , humor abound. Its a Jay and Silent Bob movie ( played by Kevin Smith the writer/producer) If you know of whom I speak see the movie. If you don't and don't mind switching between some of the cleverest critiques of Metaphysics/Theospohy/Phylosophy to sophmoric fart humor and the F-Word every minute see it .