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undefined
2009-Mar-25, 02:05 AM
Ok... i am watching Star Trek tonight and a phasor shoots threw a window on the bridge of the ship. I would say the windows dimensions are 40ft by 10ft. One person gets sucked out the window from about 30ft away. The rest of the crew are all hanging on to something. The captain hits the shields up button, it goes up, and then everything around them are back to normal. Now my question.

In reality, Would this be the case? Or, would no one be able to hold on due to do the force, pressure kill you or possibley survive the even seconds this happens?

Thanks...

Noclevername
2009-Mar-25, 03:34 AM
A window that big would suck a roomful of air into vacuum in a fraction of a second. The effect would be more like an explosion followed by silence than a wind tunnel. But TV scifi always adds hurricane-force winds because it's more dramatic. The air pressure alone would probably not suck out a man under full normal gravity unless he were standing right near the window; The force of the moving air would be very strong, but very brief.

novaderrik
2009-Mar-25, 04:15 AM
didn't this happen in ST:Nemesis?
the front of the bridge got blown away, sucking Ensign Redshirt #12 out before they got some sort of a force field up. i recall a fast decompression without much drama, then once the force field was up everything was all well and good and Picard was worried about whether Troi broke a finger nail or Riker messed up his beard..

nauthiz
2009-Mar-25, 04:20 AM
Forget the sketchy science. The most hard-to-believe part of that whole thing is that it isn't standard operating procedure to keep that shield turned on at all times.

Ronald Brak
2009-Mar-25, 05:06 AM
They have a window on the Enterprise bridge? Gee, one of the things that made sense about Star Trek was that they always used a "viewscreen" instead of just looking out the window Buck Rogers style.

Jason Thompson
2009-Mar-25, 12:43 PM
It was the viewscreen, but since the bridge is right on the top of the saucer section of the Enterprise it might as well be a window in normal use.

The most absurd thing is that the bridge is in such a vulnerable location in the first place, and that it took literally decades before anyone actually tried shooting at it. Even more absurd in the context of the film is that at this point Shinzon is trying to capture Picard alive, so firing at the bridge, where Picard is sitting, and causing the air to vent into space hardly seems the most sensible tactical move.

NEOWatcher
2009-Mar-25, 04:30 PM
The most absurd thing is that the bridge is in such a vulnerable location in the first place, and that it took literally decades before anyone actually tried shooting at it.
ST2-TWOK.

But; when you consider the shields, It ends up to be in a fairly protected area away from edges of the force field.


Even more absurd in the context of the film is...
I agree.

Nick Theodorakis
2009-Mar-25, 05:51 PM
I seem to recall that the Enterprise in ST:TNG had a "battle bridge" somewhere in the non-saucer part of the ship, but they rarely used it.

Nick

NEOWatcher
2009-Mar-25, 05:58 PM
I seem to recall that the Enterprise in ST:TNG had a "battle bridge" somewhere in the non-saucer part of the ship, but they rarely used it.
Only when the battle/drive section was separated from the saucer section.

joema
2009-Mar-25, 09:30 PM
A window that big would suck a roomful of air into vacuum in a fraction of a second. The effect would be more like an explosion followed by silence than a wind tunnel...
That's correct. Judging from available drawings, the Enterprise "E" bridge was about 30 ft in diameter and 8 ft tall. Attached was the captains "ready room", roughly 1/4 again that volume. Total volume about 7,000 cubic feet, roughly equal to a 737 airliner cabin.

The hole doesn't look like 40x10 ft, more like 20x8 ft, but the result would be similar. It would be an almost instant decompression.

The other consistent technical error is that phaser fire against unshielded ships is depicted like a cutting torch. The ships take hit after hit, each one doing a little more damage.

However in the Star Trek technical universe, even a hand phaser can vaporize a good size object.

Ship-mounted phasers driven by warp power are immensely more powerful. They could disintegrate a mountain, or lay waste to an entire continent.

Ironically the old classic Trek series often depicted that aspect more accurately than the later movies and series. For the most part, shields either worked or you died. In classic Trek, the "rock and roll" was overload of the ship's field mechanisms to compensate, NOT the ship's hull getting hit by a phaser.

Gene Roddenberry and his main season one producer, Gene Coon, were both combat veterans, and Roddenberry was a bomber pilot. Despite the limitations of commercial TV, their background let them imbue Star Trek with a certain amount of technical realism.

The newer series and movies are produced by a newer generation of people from very different backgrounds. There's a lot more pseudo-technical jargon, and a lot more "fact checking" against established Trek technical canon. However despite getting the details right, they often get the big picture wrong, as evidenced by this very Nemesis scene.

Jason Thompson
2009-Mar-26, 08:45 AM
I seem to recall that the Enterprise in ST:TNG had a "battle bridge" somewhere in the non-saucer part of the ship, but they rarely used it.

Nick

The battle bridge was to be used when the saucer separated. It was the command centre for the stardrive section. However, it was located on the top of the neck of the stardrive section, i.e. in the equivalent, right-on-the-top tempting target position of the main bridge on the saucer.

Jason Thompson
2009-Mar-26, 08:48 AM
ST2-TWOK.

Ah yes, I had forgotten that, though since that happened inside the Mutara nebula, where phaser targetting was done by 'best guess' since the actual targetting mechanism was inoperable in there, one could argue that the fact that the Enterprise shot the Reliant's bridge was more luck than judgement.


But; when you consider the shields, It ends up to be in a fairly protected area away from edges of the force field.

Even so, it still makes no sense to have the command centre of the ship so exposed. In any prolonged battle the shields will be weakened or will fail entirely, leaving the bridge exposed and allowing a potentially terminal shot as in Nemesis.

Ronald Brak
2009-Mar-26, 09:07 AM
I've always suspected that the Enterprise is actually a quite advanced machine intelligence and that the only reason it has a crew is so it can toy with them for its own sadistic amusement. Putting the bridge in such an exposed position is just part of it. It also explains why phasors that can vapourize mountains do so little damage to the Enterprise. The ship is in no danger at all, it just wants to hurt some meatbags.

Disinfo Agent
2009-Mar-26, 10:57 AM
Here's something that they never think about in science fiction (or scifi) TV shows and movies: if the ship has artificial gravity, shouldn't the shattered window fall inwards, rather than outwards? And wouldn't much of the air remain inside the room, at least for a while?...


They have a window on the Enterprise bridge? Gee, one of the things that made sense about Star Trek was that they always used a "viewscreen" instead of just looking out the window Buck Rogers style.And yet you could see lit windows on the outside (http://www.technochitlins.com/mt-archives/Enterprise.jpg) of the ship...

Moose
2009-Mar-26, 11:24 AM
I've moved the thread as it would be a better fit here.

captain swoop
2009-Mar-26, 12:03 PM
I would guess that putting the bridge on top is done because that's where you expect to find the bridge on a ship. Modern warships are controlled from the 'Ops' room down below when they are in action.

Josh
2009-Mar-26, 12:18 PM
I would guess that putting the bridge on top is done because that's where you expect to find the bridge on a ship. Modern warships are controlled from the 'Ops' room down below when they are in action.

Similarly to Star Trek. The Battle Bridge is located in the secondary hull of the Enterprise ...

PetersCreek
2009-Mar-26, 03:22 PM
If I correctly remember my Franz Joseph blueprints of the TOS Enterprise, it was simply labeled as "Bridge" or maybe "Auxilliary Bridge"...mmmmmmaybe on a mid-level deck in the secondary hull, right behind the main deflector...I think.

DaveC426913
2009-Mar-26, 03:32 PM
Here's something that they never think about in science fiction (or scifi) TV shows and movies: if the ship has artificial gravity, shouldn't the shattered window fall inwards, rather than outwards? And wouldn't much of the air remain inside the room, at least for a while?...
Think of it exactly like blowing out a window on a high altitude airliner - where there is gravity inside and near-vacuum outside. Of course the glass flies outward. And of course the air equalizes very rapidly.

Disinfo Agent
2009-Mar-26, 04:48 PM
Yes, I see. Thanks.

Jason Thompson
2009-Mar-27, 11:31 AM
Similarly to Star Trek. The Battle Bridge is located in the secondary hull of the Enterprise ...

See above. They only ever use the battle bridge when the saucer is separated. In every other battle situation they fly in still controlling the ship from the main bridge.

Moose
2009-Mar-27, 12:16 PM
When joined, the battle bridge is fairly well protected, so on paper, the idea was a good one. Unfortunately, it's realtively rare one can predict an impending battle early enough to get your senior staffers to the battle bridge, logging in, etc. Especially when they're busy doing diplomacy in the hope of preventing the battle.

So it seems to be a case of "good idea, horrible execution."

That said, I question the wisdom of putting every senior officer in the same room, especially during a crisis.

Either Picard+Riker, or Data+Worf should be on the battle bridge when all four officers are standing the same watch, with Geordi (or his relief) standing watch in Engineering. They can set up a closed circuit viewscreen for the purposes of telepresence, but they should never all be in the same room for any real length of time.

DarkHorse220
2009-Mar-27, 12:58 PM
On the other hand, as easily as their starships blow up when damaged, worrying about the bridge's location may redundant ;)

Chip
2009-Mar-28, 01:04 AM
If I correctly remember my Franz Joseph blueprints of the TOS Enterprise, it was simply labeled as "Bridge" or maybe "Auxilliary Bridge"...mmmmmmaybe on a mid-level deck in the secondary hull, right behind the main deflector...I think.

Large ocean-going ships today have two bridges so it stands to reason the Star Trek ships would also. In fact there's a line in Star Trek OS (from the Kirk & Spock era) where Kirk orders Scotty to eject the saucer and blast away with the rest of the ship "if you have too". (The ship is being pulled in by a tractor beam from the planet of tanned white-haired Val feeders.)

anybody
2009-Mar-31, 06:42 AM
Forget the sketchy science. The most hard-to-believe part of that whole thing is that it isn't standard operating procedure to keep that shield turned on at all times.

It wasnt a shield, it was an emergency force field.
To keep all emergency force fields always on would take too much power away from other vital systems.

AGN Fuel
2009-Apr-07, 04:28 AM
Perhaps the bridge of the Enterprise as seen from an enemies perspective is actually a decoy. The bridge is, in fact, safely ensconced deep in the bowels of the ship, away from any direct fire (and the 'window' is indeed a view screen showing images from remote external cameras).

Thus, the enemy uses time and energy attacking the 'bridge' in the hope of a quick end to the battle, while the crew of the Enterprise are in fact well protected and able to continue battle unscathed. While the enemy believe they are using up their photon torpedos on the head of the ship, they actually are, but not in the sense that they meant...

(For those of you itching to reply that your plans of the Enterprise clearly show the bridge in its "known" position at the top of the ship - and I know you are - well, of course they do. You wouldn't expect the true plans of a StarFleet vessel to be available to any old schmoe, where they could easily fall into Romulan hands, do you???)

DarkHorse220
2009-Apr-07, 05:34 AM
OK, then how about the fact we've seen the bridge blown open to space by weapons fire on screen?

AGN Fuel
2009-Apr-07, 05:50 AM
OK, then how about the fact we've seen the bridge blown open to space by weapons fire on screen?

Simply continuing the deception. The crew of the Enterprise are smart - they know the Romulans are watching the movie. They want them to believe that the bridge has been destroyed, so they use footage filmed in Hanger 52 (next to the moon hoax set).

Cunning, huh? ;)

aastrotech
2009-May-15, 01:42 PM
Maybe most spacefaring cultures know that a ship with a hidden, protected command center represents a culture up to no good and fires on such ships on sight. So as soon as a culture learns to fly in space they also learn not to be obviously up to no good.

Loren Pechtel
2009-May-18, 05:30 AM
ST2-TWOK.

But; when you consider the shields, It ends up to be in a fairly protected area away from edges of the force field.


I agree.

Agreed. The starships aren't really meant to take much in the way of battle damage as they can't survive the energy of the weapons being used. The only real defense is the shields and once they are down you have basically had it. Thus all you are concerned with is the bit of energy that bleeds through the shield and that seems to strike mostly around the edges of the saucer--probably an inverse square effect from the point of the bleedthrough. If the shields are higher over the center of the saucer (which would happen if they were basically round) then it's actually in a pretty good place. The primary threat to the bridge would be internal and putting it clear up on top would actually be a good idea--it's as far away as possible from internal things that might go boom.

publiusr
2009-May-18, 06:32 PM
I always assumed the bridge itself to be a lifeboat that had to be there to separate. The continued rush of air would be from the tubolift tubes behind the bridge. venting up.

Buzz-Lite-Punch
2009-Oct-10, 12:53 AM
I think they would have all gotten sucked out from the bridge. Ive watched that scene a few times and Id say it again sucked out one and all just plain curtains.

But the rest managed to hang on for several seconds. Also wouldnt the lungs freeze up or lack of oxygen air something? If it was me Id be on the floor gasping. That crew seems to be in good physical shape for several seconds with no air to breathe!

Noclevername
2009-Oct-15, 05:38 AM
Healthy human beings can, according to NASA tests, survive in vacuum for about ten seconds without passing out, and about a minute and a half without dying.

HenrikOlsen
2009-Oct-21, 09:50 AM
It wasnt a shield, it was an emergency force field.
To keep all emergency force fields always on would take too much power away from other vital systems.
But why not have it triggered automatically by a pressure sensor?
The idea that it has to be activated by vocal command in a situation with no air is rather stupid.

Drunk Vegan
2009-Oct-21, 03:07 PM
Healthy human beings can, according to NASA tests, survive in vacuum for about ten seconds without passing out, and about a minute and a half without dying.

Why do I never tune in to NASA TV when they run the really interesting tests?

And where did they find volunteers to go into vacuum? :)

Neverfly
2009-Oct-22, 01:50 AM
In ST: Enterprise, the bridge was in the usual place, yet, they had polarized hull plating and no shields. Whatever the heck that is...

So it seems the design, going by storyline, still makes little sense. Hull plating would make no difference in the inverse distance from the shields as mentioned above.

The Enterprise D had no window at the front, only the viewscreen inside. You could see the outside of the bridge on the model (ship?) was covered in a thick barrier of shipmetalstuff.

Why the Enterprise E would have a big window seems like a step back in time- Probably only existing for that one dramatic scene.

astromark
2009-Oct-22, 06:14 AM
This is fun...:) I so want it to be real.:(Sigh!
The prime directive instructs the script writers to entertain. As much as a sense of realism existed in Star Trek and TNG and Voyager and Deep Space Nine and all of those wonderful films. Yes if you get all analytical you can blow holes in it. The concept was wonderful. One day you will need that star fleet costume. Lol:)

Durakken
2009-Oct-23, 02:06 AM
Actually...
None of the "windows" are glass. They are all force fields.

As far as the puncturing...etc with the phasors. Phasors are known to be a two way energy stream that can be wide spread or concentrated with modulatable frequency...We also know that frequency means nothing about it's strength... This means that it doesn't work the same way any of our technologies work...

In other words, Phasors work on some sort of principles removed from what we think and act in some way that allows for a beam to act like a solid object or an energy beam. Or any state between.

So in this sense Ship Phasors are more like bullets than they are like LAZERs. This is perhaps why Ablative Armor is invented before and used in 2405.

As far as what would happen... In that situation with that technology... less... There are several fields around the ship, warp field, energy shield, structural stabalizers, etc. So the there would be very little that actually happens in that scenario.

With realistic technology... it wouldn't happen unless the vaporization somehow cut off the top of the roof or a section, but left the rest. That being said. It's not like they would be sucked out far in relation to the ship and there would likely be an auto pilot maneuvering that would get people back into the area and then the area would be sealed off...


of course i would expect inflatable pods and minithrusters to be standard fair so assuming they didn't get killed by debris or more shots...they'd just fly back in.

01101001
2009-Oct-23, 03:50 AM
And where did they find volunteers to go into vacuum? :)

Accidental volunteer.

NASA: Ask an Astrophysicist: Human Body in a Vacuum (http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/970603.html)


At NASA's Manned Spacecraft Center (now renamed Johnson Space Center) we had a test subject accidentally exposed to a near vacuum (less than 1 psi) in an incident involving a leaking space suit in a vacuum chamber back in '65. He remained conscious for about 14 seconds, which is about the time it takes for O2 deprived blood to go from the lungs to the brain. The suit probably did not reach a hard vacuum, and we began repressurizing the chamber within 15 seconds. The subject regained consciousness at around 15,000 feet equivalent altitude. The subject later reported that he could feel and hear the air leaking out, and his last conscious memory was of the water on his tongue beginning to boil.

And, of course, animals were volunteered by their owners.

Lone Wolf
2009-Oct-27, 09:48 AM
Way back in the mid-60s, on the original, original (rejected for being too cerebral) pilot, "The Cage", they used a panning shot from outside the top of the Enterprise, going down through the "bubble" on the top of the saucer section, which led into ... the bridge.

The windows weren't forcefields : They had a "Structural Integrity Field" running through the hull to help combat the stresses of manoeuvring the ship and combat, but the windows were, at least after the 1986 film, ST IV : TVH, mentioned to be Transparent Alumin(i)um. This is also seen in the non-canonical "Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise".

Neverfly
2009-Oct-27, 11:29 AM
Way back in the mid-60s, on the original, original (rejected for being too cerebral) pilot, "The Cage", they used a panning shot from outside the top of the Enterprise, going down through the "bubble" on the top of the saucer section, which led into ... the bridge.

The windows weren't forcefields : They had a "Structural Integrity Field" running through the hull to help combat the stresses of manoeuvring the ship and combat, but the windows were, at least after the 1986 film, ST IV : TVH, mentioned to be Transparent Alumin(i)um. This is also seen in the non-canonical "Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise".

The forcefield windows referred to were used in the Next Generation part of the series.

HenrikOlsen
2009-Oct-28, 06:22 AM
LAZERs
What are they?

Durakken
2009-Oct-28, 08:06 AM
What are they?

The things you make cheese doodles with.

DonM435
2009-Oct-28, 06:19 PM
I bet it's a Yiddish word for the unemployed.

DaveC426913
2009-Oct-31, 10:41 PM
But why not have it triggered automatically by a pressure sensor?
The idea that it has to be activated by vocal command in a situation with no air is rather stupid.

Oh, don't even get started on having a giant starship with a super-brain and 24th centiry technology but still cannot pick its nose without a command from the captain.

Jordi: "Sir, they're firing on us!"
Ryker: "Shields up!"
Jodi: "Ooh, cunning move sir!"
Ryker: "That's why they pay me the big bucks little buddy..."

Tobin Dax
2009-Nov-01, 01:00 AM
The forcefield windows referred to were used in the Next Generation part of the series.
There still weren't any forcefield windows in TNG. There were forcefields on external doors, but the windows were all solid material (supposedly transparent aluminum).

danscope
2009-Nov-01, 01:39 AM
If you want to consider the situation of a hull breach in space, just consider the jet which Payne Stewart and others were in at high altitude when they
quickly lost cabin pressure. Just like a CO2 fire extinguisher , the interior and occupants froze just about instantly. The more air, the colder.
On ST, they wouldn't of hunmg on so much as frozen stiff to what ever they grabbed.
Rapid depressurization is never a good thing.
We go through a lot of engineering trouble to build really good pressurized
cabins to withstand so many pressurizing cycles.
Best regards,

Dan

Hungry4info
2009-Nov-01, 02:33 PM
There still weren't any forcefield windows in TNG. There were forcefields on external doors, but the windows were all solid material (supposedly transparent aluminum).

If you accept that the post-TNG-series movies count as TNG, then recall the scene from First Contact where Picard shows Lilia (name?) Earth through the window. Picard demonstrates force field technology with this window to her.

But Star Trek trivia always changes, such as passing "Deck 74" in a maintenance shaft on a 22(?) deck ship. (ST: Final Frontier)

Tobin Dax
2009-Nov-01, 04:45 PM
If you accept that the post-TNG-series movies count as TNG, then recall the scene from First Contact where Picard shows Lilia (name?) Earth through the window. Picard demonstrates force field technology with this window to her.
I knew someone would bring that up, but that wasn't a window. The room was looked like a cargo bay of some sort, and a door similar to a cargo bay door opened when Picard touched the control panel. Plus the "window" is as tall as Picard. Given what we'd seen in TNG, it's doubtful that was a window.

formulaterp
2009-Nov-03, 08:29 AM
Using forcefields alone is suicide. Every single crewman's quarters seem to have windows. What happens when the ship loses power? Everyone just dies of asphyxiation?

vonmazur
2009-Nov-03, 06:54 PM
Guys: All of this discussion of the Bridge reminds me of the Russo-Japanese War and the Russian Admiral and staff at that battle. They were outside the armored conning tower, on the relatively unprotected bridge, when a Japanese shell hit the bridge, wiping out the command of the Russian Fleet.....Supposedly it was fired by a gun commanded by a young Lt. Isoroku Yamamoto.....

Dale

danscope
2009-Nov-03, 08:47 PM
Using forcefields alone is suicide. Every single crewman's quarters seem to have windows. What happens when the ship loses power? Everyone just dies of asphyxiation?

As I recall .... the Enterprise employs ' transparent aluminum ' for windows.
When you hold the license of a science fiction writer, you can do anything.
We could do with the transparent aluminum though. :)

Dan

DonM435
2009-Nov-25, 06:44 PM
As I recall .... the Enterprise employs ' transparent aluminum ' for windows.
When you hold the license of a science fiction writer, you can do anything.
We could do with the transparent aluminum though. :)

Dan

If you've ever been put on a "clear liquids" diet, you'll understand that transparent meat should be a higher priority for invention.

mugaliens
2009-Nov-28, 07:07 PM
As I recall .... the Enterprise employs ' transparent aluminum ' for windows.
When you hold the license of a science fiction writer, you can do anything.
We could do with the transparent aluminum though. :)

Dan

We already have it, and in two forms.

The first form is transparent alumina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transparent_alumina)(aluminium oxide), also known as corundum, sapphire, ruby, or aloxite, depending on which trace chemicals it contains. When submicron particles are sintered, in a process developed by researchers at the Fraunhofer Institute for Ceramic Technologyies and Sintered Materials, the result is very hard and nearly transparent.

GE was selling transparent alumina Lucalox bulbs in 1961, nearly 50 years ago!

In the arena of transparent armor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transparent_alumina#Armor_and_IR_windows), there are three products on the market:

- Aluminum oxynitride (AION)
- Magnesium aluminate spinel (spinel)
- single crystal aluminum oxide (sapphire).

Raytheon makes AION, marketed under the name Raytran. Here's a copy (http://www.arl.army.mil/arlreports/2006/ARL-TR-3852.pdf)of a 2006 US Army report on AION and spinel.

danscope
2009-Nov-29, 12:01 AM
Hi, Like Jonny Carson would say; " I did not know that."
And like Darth Vader would say.... "Most impressive." :)

Dan

publiusr
2009-Dec-04, 10:22 PM
Linwood G. Dunn did the special effects for Star Trek, and a lot of other programs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linwood_Dunn

Hokie
2010-Feb-11, 03:10 AM
When joined, the battle bridge is fairly well protected, so on paper, the idea was a good one. Unfortunately, it's realtively rare one can predict an impending battle early enough to get your senior staffers to the battle bridge, logging in, etc. Especially when they're busy doing diplomacy in the hope of preventing the battle.

So it seems to be a case of "good idea, horrible execution."

That said, I question the wisdom of putting every senior officer in the same room, especially during a crisis.

Either Picard+Riker, or Data+Worf should be on the battle bridge when all four officers are standing the same watch, with Geordi (or his relief) standing watch in Engineering. They can set up a closed circuit viewscreen for the purposes of telepresence, but they should never all be in the same room for any real length of time.

If I remember correctly there is a dedicated turbo lift directly from the bridge to the battle bridge. It would still take some time to get to it but it does speed things up.