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tommac
2009-Mar-27, 09:28 PM
Hah ... please read and move if needed ... wasnt sure where to post.

I was thinking about black holes ... and how they effect space-time.

Can one look at a black hole as creating additional space-time in a 4-d volume? Let me reword.

In old cartoons there used to be bags that could hold lots more volume than the bag represented. Like bugs bunny would reach into a sack and pull out a boat. The boat obviously cant fit in the sack ... but somehow inside the sack there was enough room for a boat.

Does a black hole do something similar? Does it fit more space-time into a 4-d volume than one would expect?

This came to me when I was thinking about a free faller into a black hole. This object would fall for an infinite amount of time from an external perspective yes redshift like a banchee.

Locally he doesnt notice that he has an infinite amount of time on his hands.

Can I draw this analogy?

Bob Angstrom
2009-Mar-27, 11:07 PM
Can I draw this analogy?The cartoon sack analogy is a good one but black holes do not create more space. Black holes have been called monsters that eat time and space. Every time a BH consumes a bit of matter it carries a bit of our space-time with it. The space within a black hole is highly dilated 4D space so the radius of a black hole is much larger on the inside than it might appear from a distance.

astromark
2009-Mar-28, 03:13 AM
From a point of view to a actual fact. No, black holes do not grow space.
It would seem that the impressive force of gravity is forth on the list....
Atomic force, Nuclear force, Electromagnetic force, and gravity. ( do not quote me this needs checking...) :)thank you
It could be said they consume it.
Gravity is an interesting force. Its weak close up as other forces out perform it easy... but across the voids of greater space. It wins... excepting against Dark Energy. It will be moments before I get corrected.... I will enjoy my moment in the sun.:)

WaxRubiks
2009-Mar-28, 03:57 AM
maybe black holes are celestial conjurers; that create the illusions of space, that is not really there...like all bodies that seem to magnify space. The Sun creates the illusion that it is 2km wider..

DaveC426913
2009-Mar-28, 04:12 AM
This came to me when I was thinking about a free faller into a black hole. This object would fall for an infinite amount of time from an external perspective yes redshift like a banchee.

Locally he doesnt notice that he has an infinite amount of time on his hands.
It's the other way around. Locally, he falls for a very short time before he reaches the centre. It is only an optical effect that makes it appear to an external viewer that he seems to never reach the centre. This is because the light being emitted by him as he falls gets red-shifted by the BH's gravity.

astromark
2009-Mar-28, 08:21 AM
This is just a bit hypothetical, because we are just not this cleaver yet. Almost...
If we know the mass and orbital velocity of an object falling in and orbiting a BH then from that can we not measure the mass of the BH itself.. thus proving it is not bigger or holding more than those calculations would indicate. BH are places where great moments of mass are hidden. Yes., but mathematics can answer some of those questions for you.;( can't believe I said that ! ) :).

DaveC426913
2009-Mar-29, 05:55 AM
This is just a bit hypothetical, because we are just not this cleaver yet. Almost...
If we know the mass and orbital velocity of an object falling in and orbiting a BH then from that can we not measure the mass of the BH itself.. thus proving it is not bigger or holding more than those calculations would indicate. BH are places where great moments of mass are hidden. Yes., but mathematics can answer some of those questions for you.;( can't believe I said that ! ) :).

It is quite basic to determine the mass of a black hole. Has something led you to believe otherwise?

And indeed, it is as you describe: observing the frequency of orbiting matter will tell you the mass of the central body.

astromark
2009-Mar-29, 09:02 AM
maybe black holes are celestial conjurers; that create the illusions of space, that is not really there...like all bodies that seem to magnify space. The Sun creates the illusion that it is 2km wider..


and you said; [Quote] It is quite basic to determine the mass of a black hole. Has something led you to believe otherwise?
And indeed, it is as you describe: observing the frequency of orbiting matter will tell you the mass of the central body.

---- My intent was to demonstrate the science is conferable mathematical. Theme's, is not magic.

WaxRubiks
2009-Mar-29, 01:18 PM
conjuring isn't magic.

max8166
2009-Mar-29, 01:53 PM
Does a black hole actually create more space?

Probably not

IMO the question should be Does a black hole actually create more space-time?

In which case I would answer Probably Yes.

All masses seem to perturb space-time giving us the Humans a perception which leads to us "see" the space-time which surrounds us.

Black holes are actually an Unknown entity within our Universe which we perceive form afar and deduce a mass density which is incomprehensible to our Human knowledge. Speculation of swirling vortexes leading to a singularity are merely mathematical theories, substantial but unproven.

Anything else said is probably ATM so I'll leave it there.

tommac
2009-Apr-24, 05:27 PM
Does a black hole actually create more space?

Probably not

IMO the question should be Does a black hole actually create more space-time?

In which case I would answer Probably Yes.

Sorry I am confused, How can more space ( the space aspect of space-time ) not be created when space-time is being created?

astromark
2009-Apr-24, 08:27 PM
Does a black hole create space time ? NO !

A black hole consumes matter by immense pressure. A massive gravity force will distort the space near it. Time is effected by the strong gravity force.
Its not any thing else. There is no argument. Space is distorted, crushed, consumed. I question how you could think a black hole is any sort of producing zone. How could that be ?

alainprice
2009-Apr-24, 09:05 PM
Does a black hole create space time ? NO !

A black hole consumes matter by immense pressure. A massive gravity force will distort the space near it. Time is effected by the strong gravity force.
Its not any thing else. There is no argument. Space is distorted, crushed, consumed. I question how you could think a black hole is any sort of producing zone. How could that be ?

I hate to rain on your parade, but how can you give such a definite answer while we all know you(or anyone else) can't explain the mechanism by which the presence of mass distorts spacetime?

You also go on to say that there is no argument when it comes to black holes consuming space. They simply do.

For my own information, you're telling me that black holes consume matter-energy as well as space-time. The matter can be released through Hawking radiation, but the space-time is just...gone. Is that correct?

Very bold, my friend.

astromark
2009-Apr-24, 11:28 PM
Umm... yes I can. Mass distorts space time because of the very mass of it. It is that simple. That we do not understand the mechanism...'Well I do.' Its called a gravity well. The mass is the force at work here. Gravity. All mater is attracted by all mater. The greater force wins. The distortion of time or space is only a buy product of the consumption of mater. As for the Hawking radiation. Thats a little more complex to explain away... Think of it as negative and positive canceling each other out and the leaking of the energy. Mater and energy are the same thing. Space, mater are drawn in and energy escapes... My ability to express this may be of some concern but, from my rantings you should get the idea. I can only re literate that a read of ' A Brief History of Time ' must help you.
I think of a Black Hole as nothing more than a all consuming gravity well.

DaveC426913
2009-Apr-28, 08:37 PM
My ability to express this may be of some concern...
This is certainly true. Some of the things you say are kinda loopy.


Umm... yes I can. Mass distorts space time because of the very mass of it. It is that simple.
Circular argument. Meaningless.


That we do not understand the mechanism...'Well I do.' Its called a gravity well. The mass is the force at work here. Gravity.
A gravity well is not a mechanism, it is merely a visual representation, an illustration. And it is a meaningless one without an underlying basis in the mechanism.



The greater force wins.
I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.



The distortion of time or space is only a buy product of the consumption of mater.

This is patently false and easily your craziest misunderstanding.


The Sun and even the Earth are quite capable of distorting space-time, yet they do not "consume matter".

The space-time curvature in the vicinity of a black hole of mass X is identical to the space-time curvature in the vicinity of any other massive body of mass X. i.e the distortion of space-time is due to the amount of mass involved and no other properties of the object that is containing the mass. In fact, if the sun were magically replaced with a black hole of one solar mass, Earth would continue to orbit its gravity without so much as a blip - because it would be the same gravity well.


Your desire to help out is laudable but you're passing along your own misconceptions.

transreality
2009-Apr-29, 01:07 AM
This might be a bit superficial.. but when a blackhole collapses is there all of a sudden more volume in the universe, or is the volume taken up by the progenitor always fit into event horizon?