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MHS
2002-Mar-31, 09:06 AM
I know that Europa has an atmosphere and that some people believe that there is or has been any life there. But would it be possible for intelligent life to evolve on a moon? I used Starry Night to find out how the day/night patern is on a moon like Europa and it's weird! But tell me how you guys think about it.

Kaptain K
2002-Mar-31, 10:34 AM
Sorry, but Europa does not have an atmosphere (at least not a real one - I don't consider 15 billionths of a PSI to be an atmosphere).

Saturn's moon Titan is the only moon with an appreciable atmosphere.

John Kierein
2002-Mar-31, 03:44 PM
There is some good speculative rationale for life, and even intelligent life, to exist in the oceans of Europa and other moons. There is a miniscule oxygen atmosphere there. The oceans are much bigger than Earths and there could be lots of competition for resources. See my website:
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Galaxy/7827/

MHS
2002-Mar-31, 04:11 PM
<a href="http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/galileo/status970718.html" target=_blank> It's an old article, but it says that Europa does have an atmosphere.

Phobos
2002-Mar-31, 06:19 PM
We should not dismiss the Europan atmosphere as being hostile to life. Granted from what I hear the external atmosphere is practically non-existant, but sandwiched in a cavity between the surface ice and any possible liquid ocean is it not conceivable that there could be an atmosphere capable of being suitable to support air-breathers.

Of course this is only speculation, but if we assume hydro-thermal activity is the cause of sub-surface liquid water, then it would seem reasonable to assume some sub-surface out-gassing takes place which could pool under the ice.

Jeff

David Hall
2002-Apr-01, 02:52 AM
Interesting idea Phobos.

Such pockets of air would 1) probably leech out through the ice over time, and 2) if used by living creatures become stripped of whatever it is they use from it.

So if there are pockets of gas, they would have to be constantly being replaced for them to support life.

My belief is there is a small probability of there being some kind of life there. Here on Earth you can find life in even the harshest of environments. But you have to take into consideration that life on earth probably started in easy environments and then evolved to fill other niches. On Europa it would have to start out in a harsh environment.

In any case, I don't think we'll see anything much beyond the bacterial stage. Maybe a few simple plant-like forms like algaes or plankton, but I wouldn't expect anything remotely resembling animal life.

Chip
2002-Apr-01, 03:00 AM
On 2002-03-31 21:52, David Hall wrote:
"...In any case, I don't think we'll see anything much beyond the bacterial stage. Maybe a few simple plant-like forms like algaes or plankton, but I wouldn't expect anything remotely resembling animal life."


Even a tiny alien microbe would have enormous repercussions in biology, and space exploration, as well as philosophy, and many other areas! /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif

David Simmons
2002-Apr-01, 03:11 AM
On 2002-03-31 05:34, Kaptain K wrote:
Sorry, but Europa does not have an atmosphere ...


Of course, here on the earth there are living things called "anerobic bacteria." Like the tetanus bacteria for example.

So it would seem that an oxygen atmosphere isn't a requirement for life. But water seems to be important, if not an absolute requirement. Isn't it thought that Europa has oceans?

Isn't it the current view that there was life in the oceans of the earth and finally some of it evolved into plants that use carbon dioxide and excrete oxygen? So the earth's atmosphere changed from whatever it was to one that is loaded with that toxic gas, oxygen.

David Hall
2002-Apr-01, 03:16 AM
On 2002-03-31 22:00, Chip wrote:
Even a tiny alien microbe would have enormous repercussions in biology, and space exploration, as well as philosophy, and many other areas! /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif


Very true, but the OP was about the possibility of intelligent life on Europa. Which generally means animal life of some kind.

Hmm, maybe the algae can get together to form a communal mind? /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_razz.gif

MHS
2002-Apr-01, 12:04 PM
On 2002-03-31 22:16, David Hall wrote:

Very true, but the OP was about the possibility of intelligent life on Europa.



It wasn't. I meant on a moon in general and I used Europa as an example. Thanks for all the replies, it's interesting.

jkmccrann
2005-Nov-29, 04:42 PM
There is some good speculative rationale for life, and even intelligent life, to exist in the oceans of Europa and other moons. There is a miniscule oxygen atmosphere there. The oceans are much bigger than Earths and there could be lots of competition for resources. See my website:
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Galaxy/7827/

I'm sorry, but I find this a little hard to believe. "There is some good speculative rationale for ..... intelligent life to exist in the oceans of Europa..."

Its funny you say that, but if there is intelligent life there as you speculate, where are the radio signals? where are the smokestacks? where are the b-grade movie actors looking for a quick buck? I'm afraid I don't think there's any evidence of any nature for the existence of intelligent life on Europa or indeed anywhere else in this Solar System.

Its an awfully big leap to go from speculation of the existence of a few microbial organisms to the existence of intelligent life and I have absolutely no idea how you made that leap.

Care to provide any rational argument for that position?

kenneth rodman
2005-Nov-30, 06:14 AM
for all we know most intellegent life in the universe has evolved on a planet sized moon orbiting a gas giant. I may be optimistic, but i think one day we will find that the universe is teaming with all dif types of life forms, for otherwise its seems an awfull waste of space.

Romanus
2005-Nov-30, 06:50 AM
I could see some totally aquatic intelligence evolving on Europa, like the creatures in 2010. However, as others have said I think it's much more likely that whatever life may be on Europa will be simple bacteria. Articles I've read mention that Europa's oceans are probably frigid, pitch-black, anoxic or hypoxic, and nutrient-poor. Even allowing for the possibility of a different biochemistry, I doubt this environment could foster vigorous macroscopic life forms. If there is life, it may have a phenomenally low metabolism, somewhat like some of the polar and deep-sea creatures on our own planet.

0Kelvin
2005-Nov-30, 08:57 AM
Here is a thought to anyone that believes that an "intelligent" form of life would send radio signals etc ect........electricity and water don't mix. It seems to me entirely probable that any form of aquatic intelligence would never develop technology as we know it because of this fact. The requirement to design a submerged generator or battery, and then insulate same from water, would require knowledge of how electricity works.

aurora
2005-Nov-30, 10:34 PM
I'm sorry, but I find this a little hard to believe. "There is some good speculative rationale for ..... intelligent life to exist in the oceans of Europa..."


Over the last 3 years the web site that John had linked in the thread has gone away.

Maybe you want to PM him and ask him if he still thinks that way, or has posted any more information?

jkmccrann
2005-Dec-01, 09:21 AM
Over the last 3 years the web site that John had linked in the thread has gone away.

Maybe you want to PM him and ask him if he still thinks that way, or has posted any more information?

No, the GeoCities page is still there, I just checked it.

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Galaxy/7827

aurora
2005-Dec-01, 11:54 PM
No, the GeoCities page is still there, I just checked it.

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Galaxy/7827

Sorry, when I clicked on the link yesterday, I swear I got a geocities home page sayinig the site was nonexistant. Today, when I click on it, I get John's web site.

Never mind.

jkmccrann
2005-Dec-03, 11:44 AM
Sorry, when I clicked on the link yesterday, I swear I got a geocities home page sayinig the site was nonexistant. Today, when I click on it, I get John's web site.

Never mind.

That's alright - no worries, their system must have been down or something. :)

suntrack2
2005-Dec-11, 10:52 AM
the moon one material may help in oxygen making but that is very difficult there to work. secondly if we make the oxygen houses there on like a green houses, then there is a possibility to live there, but for outing oxygen essential means there is a need of ample oxygen to inhale.

if on the solar battery generator the oxygen making process starts then it will be an added advantage to live there for a long time on the moon's surface, and you can also live in a tent or so or in a fibre house.

lunar land agency can also be establish for the allotment of plots on moon, (by doing registration on the earth) what a funtastic idea. !!

even moon is so peaceful to live without any kind of earthlike hazards, and the skywatching through may be a better experience, hence there is a real need to spread the intelligent life spreading process, can we start now. :)

sunil

parallaxicality
2005-Dec-11, 06:25 PM
It's difficult for me to imagine intelligent life based on anaerobic respiration; brains use up too much energy. It is possible that complex life could evolve in Europa's oceans, but I doubt it would ever reach sapience.

Now, if we have as our example a super-gas giant/brown dwarf of several Jovian masses, and close enough to its sun for a terrestrial moon to form, then I can see intelligent life forming on it. I don't know what kind of society it would have but I'd bet, given what they'd see in their skies every day, that they'd have some pretty cool religions.

mugaliens
2005-Dec-11, 07:20 PM
So if there are pockets of gas, they would have to be constantly being replaced for them to support life.

Have you ever seen those fish in bowls with a plant thrown it. They've achieved a symbiosis, as long as light keeps getting in. Plant grows, gives O2 and food. Fish eats, gives CO2 and fertilizer.

Same way here on Earth, just much larger scale.

Could be in Europa's pockets, which might be miles across.

suntrack2
2005-Dec-13, 05:31 PM
in short moon is a prospective neighbour...? 1. precious mineral, 2. field of tranquility and so on ?

WTP
2005-Dec-15, 04:19 AM
Alternatively, life could take an alternate means to technology apart from fire. Aquatic intelligence could evolve on Europa a la 2010.
Hey, if they have overcrowding problems there, maybe they could set up a colony on the Pacific ocean floor!

wayneee
2005-Dec-15, 04:36 AM
WE cant even live in our own Oceans let alone one with twice the gravity. I am fairly convinced that life lives in a narrow range of gravity . AT least if we are thinking of CArbon based forms. Carbon based is the key to life in my opinion. Without Carbon as the base, Oxygen could not deliver enough energy. Increase or decrease the gravity will not allow correct chemical reaction. Either response willl be too explosive and unstable or too weak and inaffectual

Bobunf
2005-Dec-15, 05:08 AM
WE cant even live in our own Oceans let alone one with twice the gravity. I am fairly convinced that life lives in a narrow range of gravity . AT least if we are thinking of CArbon based forms. Carbon based is the key to life in my opinion. Without Carbon as the base, Oxygen could not deliver enough energy. Increase or decrease the gravity will not allow correct chemical reaction. Either response willl be too explosive and unstable or too weak and inaffectual

I don't think this is accurate. Plants and animals living in zero gravity have had no problem with unstable or weak chemical reactions. Undesirable health effects upon return to Earth have to do with muscle atrophy and bone loss due to reduced stress, and radiation exposure. None of this would be a problem on another world.

Also chemical rockets work at zero G and 10 G.

wayneee
2005-Dec-15, 05:17 AM
I don't think this is accurate. Plants and animals living in zero gravity have had no problem with unstable or weak chemical reactions. Undesirable health effects upon return to Earth have to do with muscle atrophy and bone loss due to reduced stress, and radiation exposure. None of this would be a problem on another world.

Also chemical rockets work at zero G and 10 G.
Established life can manage for a while. What I was talking about is the orgination of life occuring in these conditions. Oxygen is what jump started life, Oxygen was the battery that fueled more complex reactions to occur in organic coumpounds. rreduced gravity would make oxygen escape to the upper atmospere away from the heavy carbon molecules , too much gravity would create pools of oxygen releasing its energy violently

Bobunf
2005-Dec-15, 06:23 AM
"What I was talking about is the orgination of life occuring in these conditions. Oxygen is what jump started life, Oxygen was the battery that fueled more complex reactions to occur in organic coumpounds."

Life on Earth didn't start in an oxygen atmosphere. Oxygen wasn't a significant component of our atmosphere until the invention of photosynthesis about two billion years after life had been evolving. Methogens still exist in large quantities on Earth.

Nitrogen and oxygen are about the same density. Increased or decreased gravity wouldn't change the proportions or distributions of these gases by much.

wayneee
2005-Dec-16, 12:23 AM
significant complex life did not exist until oxygen

ryanmercer
2005-Dec-20, 07:39 PM
We should not dismiss the Europan atmosphere as being hostile to life. Granted from what I hear the external atmosphere is practically non-existant, but sandwiched in a cavity between the surface ice and any possible liquid ocean is it not conceivable that there could be an atmosphere capable of being suitable to support air-breathers.

Of course this is only speculation, but if we assume hydro-thermal activity is the cause of sub-surface liquid water, then it would seem reasonable to assume some sub-surface out-gassing takes place which could pool under the ice.

Jeff


Or who is to say that there isn't a life form that can live with or without an atmosphere...