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Jpax2003
2003-Dec-28, 09:30 AM
I've been wondering this for a long time. It seems to me that there is no particular reason for the new year to start on 1 January. Or rather, why 1 January is where it is in relation to the earth's orbit (10-12 days after Winter Solstice or 4-6 days before perihelion). I have what I think is a better idea... a "revolutionary" idea in calendars, if you will excuse the pun.

Currently we have 12 months of between 28-31 days (~10% variance) that are, nominally, based on lunar cycles but never match. We have approximately 365 rotations per revolution and approximately 29.5 rotations per lunar.

This is the current basic formula {[(7*4)+3]7+[(7*4)+2]4+(7*4)}+1 /4 =365.25 days per yearHere is my basic solution. {[(7*4)13+1]4}+1 /4 =365.25 days per yearWe create a calendar with 13 "months" of 28 days each. This equals 364 days. The remainder of 1 day we establish as the New Years Day (day 0) as an intercalary day. I think the New Years day itself should be moved to the Winter Solstice in the Northern Hemisphere (WSNH). It's in the same theme as having midnight be the beginning of the rotational day. Besides, we start the first month with days getting longer. We basically ignore lunars, except that instead of having a month that is 1.5 days longer we have a month that is 1.5 days shorter. So basically, everything gets simplified.

We can have leap years as normal, except I need to work out where in the year it should be in order to make the astronomy match the calendars. The leap year might be a few years off gregorian but still every 4 when set.

The advantages are that you always know the day the month begins because it will be the same for the whole year. Months will all be the same length so no nursery rhymes to remember. The month length will also benefit payroll departments. No longer need you worry about whether a job pays bi weekly or twice a month since they will still be 2 checks per month.

I don't know if anyone else has ever suggested this. I've written a short essay on the subject I may post here later. Lemme know what you think.

BTW today is Day 7 of the new year, day 6 of Month 1 using my new reckoning. I want a better month naming system too :-)

Lycus
2003-Dec-28, 10:05 AM
I've been wondering this for a long time. It seems to me that there is no particular reason for the new year to start on 1 January.

Well, it has nothing to do with astronomy at all, it's religious in nature. January 1 was said to be the day of Jesus's circumcision (seven days after birth, as with custom) according to the Catholic Church during the Gregorian reform. Though taking into account the method used to calculate Christmas, it certainly wouldn't be accurate. But I suppose this sort of thing is about tradition, not precision.

As for your idea, you mathematical types may have suckered the majority of world into the Metric System, but you ain't getting the calendar! :P

dvb
2003-Dec-28, 11:13 AM
Sorry to burst your bubble. :-?

The 13 month calendar was invented in 1849 by Auguste Comte. Each month has 28 days and between the month of June and July is a new month called Sol. A leap year happens the same way it does now. Since there's 365.25 days in a year, we make up for a day once every 4 years. I was almost a leap year baby. :o

http://personal.ecu.edu/mccartyr/13-month.htm

Gmann
2003-Dec-28, 01:29 PM
April 14th, that way we can confuse the doo-doo out of the IRS and maybe get them off our backs for a few years. :D

milli360
2003-Dec-28, 02:34 PM
I voted for Other, leave as it is.

dvb's link also mentions the World Calendar, which didn't have the drawbacks of the 13 month calendar (business types like to divide the year into neat quarters), but had one or two intercalary days to make each year the same. It had four quarters, each with months of 31, 30, and 30 days. Like the 13 month calendar, it was the same calendar each year (except for the insertion of leap days).

One side effect of the World Calendar would be to make more obvious the effect of the Earth's elliptical orbit around the Sun. Right now, the equinox and solstice dates look fairly regular, the dates are on the 20, 21, or 22 of the month, but, as the following table shows, winter will be only 89 days, whereas summer will be almost 94 (spring almost 93, fall almost 90).

From SkyMap:
Equinoxes and solstices

Date (UT) Description
--------- -----------
2003 Dec 22 07:03 Winter Solstice
2004 Mar 20 06:48 Vernal Equinox
2004 Jun 21 00:56 Summer Solstice
2004 Sep 22 16:29 Autumnal Equinox
2004 Dec 21 12:41 Winter Solstice

PS: With Jpax2003's calendar, the winter solstice would be on the first of the month, but the other solstice and the equinoxes would not. Plus, the date of those other events would still vary, with the leap day adjustments.

Starting the World Calendar on the winter solstice would place the summer solstice approx. at the start of the seventh month, but the spring equinox would be a couple days before the first of the month, and the fall equinox would be a couple days after.

Glom
2003-Dec-28, 03:54 PM
I suggested 12 months of 30 days (nice numbers), with an intercalary week to fill the gap.

The Supreme Canuck
2003-Dec-28, 03:55 PM
I say leave it. If we can't make a worldwide switch to metric, what chance does this have?

johnb
2003-Dec-28, 04:31 PM
I say leave it as it is. The current system works, everyone is familiar with it and all our systems are designed to use it. A wise man once said " If it ain`t broke, don`t try to fix it".

The Supreme Canuck
2003-Dec-28, 05:12 PM
I'm just imagining different countries with different systems if we try to change it. That's what this system was designed to stop.

Mr. X
2003-Dec-28, 05:44 PM
Having two holidays within a week of each other is somewhat stupid though.

But I like the fact that it cuts the school year in half with a nice rest.

wedgebert
2003-Dec-28, 06:09 PM
I say leave it as it is. The current system works, everyone is familiar with it and all our systems are designed to use it. A wise man once said " If it ain`t broke, don`t try to fix it".

But to an engineer, the quote is "If it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough features yet"

mike alexander
2003-Dec-28, 06:55 PM
The new year should begin right after the old one ends.

Maybe we could adopt a Mercurian calendar. Everybody would then automatically live four times longer.

Jpax2003
2003-Dec-29, 08:24 AM
The new year should begin right after the old one ends.
It does. It's the first month that does not start immediately.

I know lots of people think "if it ain't broke don't fix it." Well, I think it is broke. I understand businesses might want yearly quarter divisions. But I think having even "months" would be better. One modification I've considered was 12 months of 28 days with 4 intercalary weeks interspread to make even quarter divisions.{[(7*4)3+7]4}+1 /4 =365.25 days per yearIncidentally, I did not look up alternative calendar proposals beforehand. I made this up on my own. Although I find it interesting that George Eastman (http://personal.ecu.edu/mccartyr/eastman.html) was one of their proponents. I happen to do work for Eastman Kodak. I guess I'm in good company.

As for the metric argument, the only similarity is that this method is meant to make calculations easier, or at least more predictable. I haven't used a centary system... although I have thought of one that is a 3-10 "bio-metric" for use in calendars and for time-of-day. I'll include it with my essay after this post.

Interestingly I do wonder how long it would take for earth's precession to match perihelion to the winter solstice. I also am thinking about how tides and earth slowing and the moons recession might all fit in down the line (a very long time from now. I think we should use astronomy to define our calendar. I never heard that January 1 was based on Christ's Bris. I think I read an article by the BA suggesting astronomincal arguments for calendars, at least in relation to seasons. (www.badastronomy.com/bad/misc/badseasons.html) It looks like it was once discussed in this thread (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=4777&highlight=) too.

Jpax2003
2003-Dec-29, 09:28 AM
my promised short essay (unfinished draft)

JPax Calendars

{[(7*4)+3]7+[(7*4)+2]4+(7*4)}+1/4 = 365¼

Organized is as organized does. When we use a measurement structure that does not design clear relationships between its parts, we will find ourselves failing in methodologies using it. The metric system has been developed to try to make mathematics simpler and easier. The US dollar is a metric currency. Unfortunately, it worked so well that the US refused to adopt the metric “weights and measures” system and chose to base all derivative measurements on its currency. :) Moreover, the mental map for interrelation of measurements can only be as good as the definitions of in use. While the reference to US currency may seem amusing or even spiteful, the fact remains that language defines relational concepts, which in turn define our world.

This brings me, at this time, to time management. Date and time is one of the most controversial definitions in our world. While it may not appear to be on the surface, let anyone examine the confrontations created by this flawed system to see my meaning. Many methods of employment base salary per month, yet the duration of a month can vary by 10% throughout the year. Other wage periods run by weeks, which have no direct relationship to either months or years. Any apparent relationship is coincident at best. Ninety days may be same as cash, but it can be 3 or 4 months depending on when it starts in the year.

Our time units are descended from varying religious structures intertwined. Our weekly structure is descended from the Semitic cultures while the names of days are descended from Norse and Greco-roman cultures. Months are loosely defined by the moon, but have never matched that period exactly. Month names are contrived from various Greco-roman sources without a consistent rhyme or reason.

Part of this problem may be related to ancient obsessions with sacred numbers and geometry. While 12 is divisible by 2, 3, 4, and 6, that is no reason to use it as the basis for a calendar, especially when the parts are unequal. The number 12 would be a logical choice if the year was actually 360 days long and lunars were 30 days, however it is not. The 12/24 notation works well enough for time, but not for dates.

However, the 7-day week does seem to work well for us and with current and proposed calendar systems. It multiplies to 28 days, which vaguely approximates a lunar cycle (but never matches it). Weeks also coincide more closely with the solar year as well. A year of 52 weeks of 7 days comes out to 364 days with about 30 hours left over. Furthermore, those 52 weeks can be divided into 13 months of 4 weeks for 28 days each. With the use of a single inter-calendar day per year and an inter-calendar leap day every four years, this format will better fit our observations and cause minimal disruption in our current system. There is an added bonus, that orbital mechanics may make this calendar more accurate over time.

The formula for this calendar is:

{[(7*4)13+1]4}+1/4 = 365¼

As humanity moves towards it’s future we must take many things into account. We should not be stuck to tradition that bears us down. It must be acknowledged that our sacred selves are allowed and even encouraged by our creator to find our own way. We are not blind servants to our creator; we were created with sight and given light so that we might be able to find our own way.

Seven is the number of perfection, and it is a better balance for the human physiology and the human psyche than a decimal work period. Twenty-eight is known to be a natural human cycle and fits properly into this context. Four equal division of a month coordinate with the human psyche, as four is the number of the nuclear human family. Thirteen is a number long associated with evil, and it is time we recognize that it has no power over us (even the jewish calendar has a 13th month occasionally). With the extra calendar day we acknowledge that the universe is not perfect, and we must learn to live with incompleteness. All together, we say that we recognize: our own humanity; our relationship with the sacred; our triumph over evil; and that the only constant in the universe is change and adaptation.

I also feel the need to change the New Year to coincide with the winter solstice northern hemisphere (or possibly the summer solstice NH) because it represents the fulfillment of a cycle. The inter-calendar day is the shortest day of the year and we should celebrate it as the fulfillment of one cycle and the beginning of a new cycle. The darkness has no power over us, and a celebration demonstrates that. (Some may suggest perihelion or the Summer solstice for New Year as well.)

On a practical note, there are a several advantages to this plan. First, Christmas is at the beginning of the year (month 1/day 3). Perhaps this would benefit the economy to have this great commercial holiday as a beginning of a fiscal year. Although much holiday shopping occurs before that, we all know a huge percentage occurs within the three days prior. With such sales at the beginning of the year, the Christmas rush seems like less of a commercial gamble. They have the rest of the year to recoup. Remember, Christmas makes or breaks many businesses. (Actually, this might be a better argument for a Summer Solstice New Year). Second, the months may not divide evenly into quarters, but weeks do. Three months and one week are essentially, one 13 week/91 day quarter. It may not match the month exactly, but it's much easier to reconcile then our current system. Third, wage earners will appreciate a more stable payment schedule throughout the month and the year. One should try to live on a subsistence income to fully appreciate the difference between a short month and an extra check month when obligations remain the same. Fourth, a stabilized monthly schedule may have positive affects on loan repayments. Not only would income be stable, but obligations would be 13 smaller payments instead of 12. Or perhaps lenders could offer one amnesty month per year to keep their quarters standard.

Note, I am not suggesting that we ignore the week for the intercalary day. We may include it still, so that the week cycles are off every year or leap year. However, they will essentially be locked for an entire year at a time. This will keep the faithful happy with this calendar.

I believe we may want to change the names of the months and perhaps even the days. But I have not gotten to that point yet. As of this writing this proclamation is unfinished.

JPax

A Possible Time Modification

Now there is the possibility of changing the time aspect as well. While 12*2 hours per day seems to work well, there may be room for improvement. Currently we divide days into 2 halves, of 12 hours divided further into 60 minutes per hour and 60 seconds per minute. Not exactly an easily convertible metric system.

1 day / 2 half days / 12 hours / 60 minutes / 60 seconds
or
1 day = 2 half days = 24 hours = 1440 minutes = 86,400 seconds

A better idea may be to use human physiology to define time. We know humans have a daily cycle of 8*3. This is 8 hours of sleep, 8 hours of work; and 8 hours play for a well-rounded day. Historically we have had 8 bells for a watch and we naturally divide the Day into morning, noon, and night. Perhaps these “watches” or “bio-chrons” could be the basis for a new time system. One “bio-chron” would be 8 hours (480 minutes) our time, but we could re-calibrate it to be 10 chrons (hours) of 100 centichrons (or 48 minutes) each. We could redefine 1 centichron (.48 minutes or 28.8 seconds) as 100 microchrons (or .288 seconds).

1 day / 3 bio-chrons / 10 chrons / 100 centichrons / 100 microchrons
or
1 day = 3 bio-chrons = 30 chrons = 3000 centichrons = 300,000 microchrons

Just a thought… this part should probably be revised. The usage of micro for such a long duration leaves little for comparison of faster cycles. This should probably be tied into electronics. Would it be better to forsake 60 or 50 hertz and go into a decimal scale throughout?

Personally, I like the current time system, but this is an alternative.

DonM435
2010-Jan-01, 03:00 AM
You know how the weather is in February, right? Let's make the leap day July 32nd to get an extra day of good weather.

;)

Otherworldly
2010-Jan-01, 03:11 AM
You know how the weather is in February, right? Let's make the leap day July 32nd to get an extra day of good weather.

;)

I also want to know, when we lose an hour moving to summer time, and then get it back in the fall? How come we only get back the original hour, with no interest?

Gillianren
2010-Jan-01, 06:47 AM
You know how the weather is in February, right? Let's make the leap day July 32nd to get an extra day of good weather.

;)

I'm rather curious as to why you bumped a six-year-old thread.

clop
2010-Jan-01, 06:49 AM
Fairly obviously midnight GMT.

DonM435
2010-Jan-02, 04:02 AM
I'm rather curious as to why you bumped a six-year-old thread.

Sorry about that. I had no idea it was that old. Are you sure that there wasn't something else deleted? Something must have floated it back in view before I saw it.

danscope
2010-Jan-02, 07:16 AM
The new year should start when you are finished with the old one! :)

hhEb09'1
2010-Jan-02, 07:45 AM
Sorry about that.It's OK :)
I had no idea it was that old. Are you sure that there wasn't something else deleted? Something must have floated it back in view before I saw it.You posted six minutes earlier to the Happy New Year (http://www.bautforum.com/off-topic-babbling/98809-happy-new-year.html#post1652963) thread. Even now, in the list of Similar Threads at the bottom of it, I see ancient suggested threads lying in wait, enticing the unwary.

jokergirl
2010-Jan-02, 12:50 PM
Spring equinox.

;)

DonM435
2010-Jan-02, 05:16 PM
It's OK :)You posted six minutes earlier to the Happy New Year (http://www.bautforum.com/off-topic-babbling/98809-happy-new-year.html#post1652963) thread. Even now, in the list of Similar Threads at the bottom of it, I see ancient suggested threads lying in wait, enticing the unwary.

The unwary . . . and the clueless.

Jens
2010-Jan-03, 10:55 AM
You know how the weather is in February, right? Let's make the leap day July 32nd to get an extra day of good weather.

;)

Sorry, July 32nd is a bit too hot for my taste. I'd rather take February. Maybe April for a compromise?

Chuck
2010-Jan-03, 01:00 PM
Add an extra Christmas day every four years so we'd all get more presents.

DonM435
2010-Jan-03, 05:20 PM
Sorry, July 32nd is a bit too hot for my taste. I'd rather take February. Maybe April for a compromise?

I prefer the cooler weather myself, but it would spoil the joke to admit that.

chornedsnorkack
2010-Jan-03, 05:34 PM
Sorry, July 32nd is a bit too hot for my taste. I'd rather take February. Maybe April for a compromise?

If early February or late January is acceptable for you, what about having real months? Which of course means leap month rather than leap day....

We still have 42 says left of the Year of Ox!

danscope
2010-Jan-03, 06:54 PM
Soi... let's broil an ox. Some new potatoes, a few carrots. Yum.

Chuck
2010-Jan-03, 07:33 PM
How about every fourth year we make Thanksgiving day last for 48 hours? I could use the extra eating time.

danscope
2010-Jan-03, 08:52 PM
Great! Twice the turkey, twice the pie. Extra mashed potatoes,gravy,
a little cranberry orange nut bread, the odd chocolate, drinkies, coffee.
Sounds good to me. No shopping. :)

danscope
2010-Jan-03, 08:53 PM
Say Chuck, I take note that you are indeed clawing your way toward the Order of Kilopi. Most impressive.

Gillianren
2010-Jan-03, 08:55 PM
How about every fourth year we make Thanksgiving day last for 48 hours? I could use the extra eating time.

Which is fine for people in the US, I guess--who celebrate the holiday; I generally don't do anything for it, myself.

Chuck
2010-Jan-03, 09:50 PM
Say Chuck, I take note that you are indeed clawing your way toward the Order of Kilopi. Most impressive.
It's easy with so many important topics needing comments.

danscope
2010-Jan-04, 03:33 AM
Yes, Good job. It develops diverse perspective, and builds character. :)

Jens
2010-Jan-05, 09:57 AM
Even now, in the list of Similar Threads at the bottom of it, I see ancient suggested threads lying in wait, enticing the unwary.

Sometimes enticing even the wary!

Jens
2010-Jan-05, 09:59 AM
How about every fourth year we make Thanksgiving day last for 48 hours? I could use the extra eating time.

Or in a more sadistic tone, how about making December 24 extra long to make the kids have to wait an extra 24 hours before they can open their presents. Plus, as a bonus, it gives Santa an extra day to complete his impossible schedule.

danscope
2010-Jan-05, 04:29 PM
Make the kids wait? It builds character, and prepares them for doctor visits.
... and military service. :)

DonM435
2010-Jan-05, 04:32 PM
Or in a more sadistic tone, how about making December 24 extra long to make the kids have to wait an extra 24 hours before they can open their presents. Plus, as a bonus, it gives Santa an extra day to complete his impossible schedule.

Wouldn't that mess up the song? I mean. you'd need 13 Maids-a-swimming . . . or is it 24 Lords-a-dancing? . . . or whatever in the pear tree.

HenrikOlsen
2010-Jan-05, 05:02 PM
Wouldn't that mess up the song? I mean. you'd need 13 Maids-a-swimming . . . or is it 24 Lords-a-dancing? . . . or whatever in the pear tree.

Nope, the twelve days are the twelve days after Christmas, not before, so there'd be no change.

Gillianren
2010-Jan-05, 05:32 PM
Nope, the twelve days are the twelve days after Christmas, not before, so there'd be no change.

Exactly! I'm so glad someone else knew that. Cultural thing? Tonight, though, is Twelfth Night, or what you will.

DonM435
2010-Jan-05, 06:13 PM
Yeah, I knew that. But I couldn't very well make a crack like "On the Zeroth Day of Christmas . . . it was twice as long, and I still got diddly!"

Trebuchet
2010-Jan-05, 08:28 PM
Since the thread is revived, I voted "Winter Solstice Northern Hemisphere."

J.R.R. Tolkien describes in appendix of The Lord of The Rings the Shire Calendar. 12 months of 30 days, with five holidays not part of any month. Six in leap years, of course. The holidays are two at the winter solstice, marking the first and last days of the year, and three at the summer solstice. Makes sense to me. He still uses seven day weeks, however, which don't go nicely into 30 day months. Perhaps it should be six day weeks, 4 workdays and 2 off!

Grey
2010-Jan-05, 08:58 PM
Actually, I think it would be a bad plan to have an even number of weeks per month. That would mean that instead of changing which day of the week a given date (like, say, your birthday) falls each year, it would always be the same day. That might be nice for the Saturday birthday crowd, but it would be sad for the people with Wednesday birthdays. :)

rigel
2010-Jan-05, 08:59 PM
I like

Chinese New Year