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Mr. Peabody
2009-Jun-11, 03:53 AM
Years ago Japan was scheduled to send up a rocket to map the moon. The US told them they had to use our rocket engines, but told them it might be a few years before these engines are ready.

Did this or any other mission to map the moon happen?

[BTW This was discussed here at the forum years ago]

Nick Theodorakis
2009-Jun-11, 03:57 AM
The Kaguya (Selene (http://www.selene.jaxa.jp/index_e.htm)) mission just finished, like, yesterday. Is that the one you mean? We have a thread on it here (http://www.bautforum.com/space-exploration/64039-kaguya-japans-lunar-orbiter.html).

Nick

matthewota
2009-Jun-11, 03:59 AM
Japan currently uses an indigenous launch vehicle, the H-2A, to launch their satellites and space probes. The H-2A features liquid hydrogen fueled engines, and the system is just as advanced as comparable launch vehicles.

They just completed a lunar mapping mission today called Kaguya (formerly Selene) which took hundreds of HD images of the Moon.

More information on the Japanese Space Program is available in English here. (http://www.jaxa.jp/index_e.html)

slang
2009-Jun-11, 10:01 AM
Did this or any other mission to map the moon happen?

(my bold) Missions to map the moon already happened in 1966 and '67 (Lunar Orbiter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_Orbiter_program)). Check this Wikipedia list (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robotic_exploration_of_the_Moon) for other mapping moon orbiters. All modern missions have mapping roles.

captain swoop
2009-Jun-11, 10:14 PM
The US told them they had to use our rocket engines, but told them it might be a few years before these engines are ready.



Had to? How does that work then?

matthewota
2009-Jun-11, 10:19 PM
The Lunar Orbiter mission from the 1960s has a new project here (http://www.moonviews.com/) as they are recovering old data and reformatting to modern graphics standards.

kleindoofy
2009-Jun-11, 11:37 PM
... The US told them they had to use our rocket engines, ...
To augment on captain swoop's remark, since when does the US "tell" Japan what they "have" to do?

I think Japan would have "told" the US to go fly a kite.

cfgauss
2009-Jun-11, 11:52 PM
To augment on captain swoop's remark, since when does the US "tell" Japan what they "have" to do?


Since the end of WW2, actually...

This is just wild speculating, but I could imagine Japan formerly having been prohibited from building rockets due to the terms of their constitution which we helpfully assisted them in creating.

kleindoofy
2009-Jun-12, 12:15 AM
... This is just wild speculating ...
Yup.

For instance, the H-2A rocket is built in Japan by the Japanese and is launched from Japanese territory.

Even if post-war constraints forbade Japan from building rockets, that would have been international law, as was the case with Germany. Contrary to popular American beliefs, the US does not control or dictate international law.

If it had been necessary for Japan to purchase foreign rockets, the US could not have "told" them who's rockets they would have had to buy. The Japanese could equally have purchased an Arianne, or whatever.

I also doubt the Japanese consitution has a passage that reads: "ask the US what we can and cannot do and do what they say." The Japanese constitution does have very strict passages concerning military issues, but those are national, not international law.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

cfgauss
2009-Jun-12, 12:23 AM
Yup.

For instance, the H-2A rocket is built in Japan by the Japanese and is launched from Japanese territory.

Even if post-war constraints forbade Japan from building rockets, that would have been international law, as was the case with Germany. Contrary to popular American beliefs, the US does not control or dictate international law.

If it had been necessary for Japan to purchase foreign rockets, the US could not have "told" them who's rockets they would have had to buy. The Japanese could equally have purchased an Arianne, or whatever.

I also doubt the Japanese consitution has a passage that reads: "ask the US what we can and cannot do and do what they say." The Japanese constitution does have very strict passages concerning military issues, but those are national, not international law.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Well, there's really "no such thing" as international law, in the sense that, countries pretty much ignore what anyone else says (which is why organizations like the UN aren't taken too seriously by any countries). The only repercussions are making a country mad and having them not cooperate with you anymore. So in that sense, the US really does "dictate" international law, because everyone wants to trade with us. In the same way that the EU "dictates" European law even when all of Europe disagrees with something they say ;). Or why China "dictates" international relations in large parts of Asia.

Well, right after WW2 is was less about trade and more about "hey remember that time we killed all you guys", but still, the idea is the same. The law is controlled by whomever you want to make the least angry.

At any rate, it would hardly be out of character for, in the 60s or 70s, Allied powers to "politely suggest" that Japan not do anything like that.

edit:
Man, I'm remembering all those lectures about "the source of power" in law, government, and international law from those two or so years worth of politics and history I took as an undergrad ;). I can even remember the professor's exact words about some of that. Scary!

matthewota
2009-Jun-12, 01:17 AM
Since the end of WW2, actually...

This is just wild speculating, but I could imagine Japan formerly having been prohibited from building rockets due to the terms of their constitution which we helpfully assisted them in creating.

The Japanese were not prohibited from building rockets in their constitution. The Japanese constitution prohibits offensive warfare as a means of foreign policy. This was put in on the insistence of the occupation forces.

The Japanese have been launching satellites on rockets since the early 1970s. First with a licensed Delta launcher and then with their own design.

cfgauss
2009-Jun-12, 02:11 AM
The Japanese were not prohibited from building rockets in their constitution. The Japanese constitution prohibits offensive warfare as a means of foreign policy. This was put in on the insistence of the occupation forces.

The Japanese have been launching satellites on rockets since the early 1970s. First with a licensed Delta launcher and then with their own design.

Well, like I said, speculation. Although their constitution is (deliberately) not exactly clear on what is and is not allowed. And I was not sure what the interpretation regarding rockets was (obviously distinct from is considering they have a pretty sophisticated armed forces now).

The exact wording is something like "war potential" will never be maintained, and building rockets capable of delivering ICBMs (which anything that can reach space can be used for) could easily be construed as the "potential" for war.

Though, admittedly, I think the international community would be much more trusting of Japan when they say they just want to do science, than, say North Korea presently would...

Wikipedia tells me, re their space program "In the beginning NASDA [precursor to JAXA] used American models in license" but does not provide a reason or source.

Edit:
Back on topic, Kaguya's pictures are awesome. And some of their actual science data is available to anyone on their website, and is fantastic, too.

Mr. Peabody
2009-Jun-15, 08:37 PM
Thank you all.

I didn't mean to open the can of worms about the US telling Japan what to do, I heard that info second hand myself and thought it was odd. It was not researched.

It seems to me that the moonhoax has been thouroughly debunked, or at least I don't know of anyone who still believes in it.

Yet, as we close the book, shouldn't we have, for the last page, the pictures of the moonlanders on the moon where they belong?

Forget the moonhoax. Wouldn't most science buffs and some general public love pictures, wallpapers, or posters of these images?

slang
2009-Jun-15, 08:43 PM
Yet, as we close the book, shouldn't we have, for the last page, the pictures of the moonlanders on the moon where they belong?

Forget the moonhoax. Wouldn't most science buffs and some general public love pictures, wallpapers, or posters of these images?

Watch this topic (http://www.bautforum.com/space-exploration/85712-lunar-reconnaissance-orbiter-lro-countdown-launch.html) over the next weeks. MRO will provide pictures, if everything goes well.

Jeff Root
2009-Jun-16, 06:49 PM
I looked in my copy of Jane's Space Directory 1993-94 to find out how
Japan's H2 developed from the McDonnell Douglas Delta. Before I found
that, I came across this in the section on national space programs:



Two CS-4 satellites were approved in 1989 by the Ministry of Posts and
Telecommunications for 1994 & 1995, but US pressure resulted in an
agreement that satellites would be procured on the open market for the
commercial element. That contract was awarded by NTT in December
1991 to Space Systems/Loral for two N-Stars.

In the section on launchers:


The N1/2 launchers provided the initial expertise but they depended
on McDonnell Douglas stages built under a 1969 licence that prohibited
orbiting of third party payloads without US approval. The interim H1
introduced Mitsubishi's cryogenic stage 2 and all-Japanese inertial
guidance. H2 will complete the transition in 1994 by adopting a large
cryogenic first stage and solid strap-ons.

Basically, the Japanese government was prohibited by agreement from
using American launch vehicles to compete in the space launch industry.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis