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AstroMike
2002-Apr-03, 02:28 AM
Good article about the Hoax (http://www.theworldjournal.com/2002/moonlanding.htm)

This is far better than the awful one in that "Babel" magazine. Finally, someone with some good sense. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

JayUtah
2002-Apr-03, 03:22 AM
A number of skeptics have addressed the Fox program. I've managed to find several articles on it. They follow the same basic pattern: lament the mentality that produces the hoax theory, lament the gullibility of the public that believes it, and refute a few of the more absurd arguments.

The phrase I use, "consumer advocates in the marketplace of ideas," comes from one of the skeptic writers.

AstroMike
2002-Apr-03, 03:39 AM
Fox's Flapdoodle (http://www.sciam.com/2001/0601issue/0601skeptic.html)

This is Michael Shermer's (founder of Skeptic magazine) response in Scientific American.

Rue
2003-Jan-24, 04:41 AM
Canadian Discovery Channel's response to Fox Program. Only recommended if you've got a high speed connection. Same old stuff, flapping flag, direction of shadows, Van Allen etc..


http://www.exn.ca/cgi-bin/query2.idq?CiRestriction=lunar+hoax

Pick number 5 on the list.

DaveOlden
2003-Jan-24, 05:06 AM
The video won't play with sound. I just get the picture... (which by the way does look very authentic.)

Eric McLoughlin
2003-Jan-24, 11:39 AM
I'm not that convinced about his explanation of the flag waving. The flags did wave whilst the astronauts were setting them up but the undulations damped down very rapidly once the flags were left alone. Friction between the cloth of the flag and the "curtain rail" would have killed motion (and did) rapidly. The only other time I've seen the flag waving was when the LM blasted off and the rocket exhaust from the ascent stage caused the flag to flutter briefly.

Irishman
2003-Jan-24, 12:52 PM
Eric, could you please elaborate what you find unconvincing? Which explanation? Have you seen the Fox program, to know the claim that is being addressed? Have you read the Bad Astronomer's response (http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/tv/foxapollo.html) to the Fox show, or any of the material at Clavius (http://www.clavius.org)?

In brief: the Fox program shows film of the flag waving, but there is always an astronaut connected to the flag pole. None of the film on the Fox show was without an astronaut touching the pole.

Also, while the flag motion would damp out from friction, it is deceptive and the flag would have continued to wiggle after letting go, because there was no air to create drag. While the friction would have eventually done the trick, it would take longer than a corresponding flag on Earth in still air.

JayUtah
2003-Jan-24, 02:31 PM
Consider also that the aluminum frame in the flag assembly will oscillate in response to various loads. In some of the Apollo video I can see regular oscillations that are clearly the materials' response to deflection and release.

kucharek
2003-Jan-24, 02:57 PM
This (http://www.mondlandung.pcdl.de/wind/spiegeltv.htm) german site also illustrates a good argument. Twinkies believe that the wind moves the flag. But if you look closely (image sequence at bottom of page), you see that the flag follows the part with the horizontal bar. If the wind would blow, the bar would follow the flag.

Harald

JayUtah
2003-Jan-24, 03:10 PM
I happen to own an Apollo U.S. flag. And so can anyone who goes out and buys one made of nylon in the correct size. That's what NASA did. They were not specially fabricated for Apollo; they were purchased off the shelf.

Anyone who owns one will see just how much the fabric is affected by air, moving or otherwise, and will have a very hard time replicating the movements of Apollo flags. The argument about oscillations damping out due to friction in the assembly is spot-on, however if you experiment with similar motions with the flag in air, you'll discover that there is no oscillation because the ambient air damps out flag response to staff motion before any oscillation can occur.

Odd that conspiracists still haven't been able to produce their own video of the flag behaving in air and earth gravity as it does in the Apollo videos -- sped up, slowed down, or what have you. Seems they believe they can explain just why a flag behaves a certain way in a video, but can't seem to reproduce the results according to their explanation.

JimO
2003-Jan-24, 04:22 PM
Re the flag, for German TV last year I used a webbed sheet of small bathroom tiles hung from a vertical bar -- the motion simulated a hanging drape in a vacuum -- and it rocked back and forth for almost 30 seconds after shaking stopped.

JayUtah
2003-Jan-24, 04:54 PM
That's a terrific demonstration. Do you know where I can get some Stars and Stripes bathroom tiles? /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Thumper
2003-Jan-24, 05:01 PM
I recently purchased a nylon flag last year. That is one of the selling points of the nylon: It will flutter and wave "in the lightest breeze".

Yet you can watch hours of TV and 16mm footage from the surface of the Moon and the flag is absolutely motionless. The stiffness and lack of motion make it appear more like it's made of thick aluminum foil or something.

Thumper
2003-Jan-24, 05:22 PM
On 2003-01-23 23:41, Rue wrote:
Canadian Discovery Channel's response to Fox Program. Only recommended if you've got a high speed connection. Same old stuff, flapping flag, direction of shadows, Van Allen etc..


http://www.exn.ca/cgi-bin/query2.idq?CiRestriction=lunar+hoax

Pick number 5 on the list.



I really liked the clip.

Since the FOX show was designed to be everything but objective, it would be nice to see something like this as a rebuttal on US TV (Maybe FOX owes equal time) Is there or has there been a television show directly rebutting the claims made on the FOX program?

I guess if not, who would want to pay for it? What's in it for them, the truth? Once I understand that, I begin to see how conspiracy theories have appeal; and the ability to sell themselves (and advertising).

David Hall
2003-Jan-24, 06:02 PM
About two months back Eightball Magazine (http://www.eightballmagazine.com) had an article about JimO's book (http://www.eightballmagazine.com/diatribes/volume01/diatribes052/diatribes1085-1105/diatribes1087.htm) announcement.

Well, it prompted a few reader's comments, one of which was a woman who thought the moon flags were made of metal. I wrote in and gave the correct info. Unfortunately I didn't think to give links to here or Clavius until it was too late. Oh, well.

Check out the FYI page here (http://www.eightballmagazine.com/blog/blog.htm) (careful, racy language abounds) and scroll down to near the bottom. The letter in question is titled "Moon Retards", and is dated 11/16. My reply is a few entries above that.

DaveDauria
2003-Jan-25, 06:48 AM
One thing about the "flag is fluttering" argument is that one feature of fluttering is totally absent.(I'm not sure if any of you guys mentioned this but I'm probably wrong.) Any real flag I've seen fluttering in a real breeze has waves that ripple across its edge horizontally. That flag in the videos I've seen never ripples, it just swings.

darkhunter
2003-Jan-27, 11:35 AM
On 2003-01-24 06:39, Eric McLoughlin wrote:
I'm not that convinced about his explanation of the flag waving. The flags did wave whilst the astronauts were setting them up but the undulations damped down very rapidly once the flags were left alone. Friction between the cloth of the flag and the "curtain rail" would have killed motion (and did) rapidly. The only other time I've seen the flag waving was when the LM blasted off and the rocket exhaust from the ascent stage caused the flag to flutter briefly.


Simple way to debunk flag waving: Go to http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/apollo/welcome.html#chart and pick any Apollo mission that landed. Check out every picture of the flag. Each one (for that mission) will show the same pattern of ripples and folds. If the wind was blowing, each one would be different. Not a statician, so can't give the odds of ranomly photographing the same pattern throughout an up to 2 day period....

But I can hear it already: MORE PROOF THE LANDINGS WERE FAKED!!!!!!!!! pHOTOS PROVE FLAG WAS DIGITALLY CUT AND PASTED INTO SEVERAL PICTURESS!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Chemist
2003-Jan-27, 01:36 PM
On 2003-01-24 11:54, JayUtah wrote:
That's a terrific demonstration. Do you know where I can get some Stars and Stripes bathroom tiles? /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif



I saw some at the Designers EXPO. Do you have a store location in Utah?