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Humphrey
2004-Jan-22, 10:12 PM
I missed this weeks episode, how bad was it? What happened?


Speaking of this, i have heared rumours that the show might not be picked up for another season, that this could be its last due to lackluster ratings. Has anyone else heared this? You know, i want to see the show still on, just as long as B&B get thier butts kicked out of office like Michael Isner is in the process of being taken out of office in Disney.

SpaceTrekkie
2004-Jan-22, 10:18 PM
Chosen realm? It was ok IMO....they are really starting to get A LOT better since the first season but this definitally wasn't one of the better ones...but still a great improvement over the earlier ones. Could i have been any more vage? Oh well if you want more (spoliers) let me know.

-ST

SeanF
2004-Jan-22, 10:31 PM
Nah, this week's episode would be Proving Ground, with the Andorians.

I kind of liked it. Jeffrey Combs is always a hoot. :)

Aodoi
2004-Jan-22, 11:21 PM
Proving Ground was this weeks ep. Andorians and Xindi and Archer, oh my!

Was ok, have also heard the rumors about no next season. They cut this season from 26 to 24 eps and canned Jake 2.0 which followed Enterprise.


[slight spoilers]




Usual bad astronomy of overcrowded solar systems. There were some interesting perspective issues between a sphere and a moon and the sphere and the ships, dunno if it was actually bad or just a bit misleading. The shot at the moon also did some odd things to gravity as that moon did the usual sci-fi "blow up and out despite gravity" thing. Though if it was really small perhaps it actually would do that.

The somewhat ridiculous nature of when the Andorians found Enterprise was unnecessary.

Did like the plot and characterizations. Effects were good. Finally started using establishing shots again (which I prefer). Definately a story to advance the story arch for the season, and a nice tie-in with a previous ep.

Overall, not bad. Seems like they're finally hitting some sort of stride.

Humphrey
2004-Jan-22, 11:34 PM
Hmm.. Spoliers on plot please?
So a meeting b/t andorians? why were they there? and what was this about the moon?

But again, if Enterprise is cancelled, i think that a alternate, non federation viewpoint would be fun. We played with this a while ago. Overall it would focus on the maquis rebelllion and have the Federation be the bad guys.

Moose
2004-Jan-23, 12:15 AM
Hmm.. Spoliers on plot please?
So a meeting b/t andorians? why were they there? and what was this about the moon?

But again, if Enterprise is cancelled, i think that a alternate, non federation viewpoint would be fun. We played with this a while ago. Overall it would focus on the maquis rebelllion and have the Federation be the bad guys.

I'm hesitant to offer a synopsis only 24 hours after the episode debuted, but I think I can offer this much which can be gleaned from the teaser, without risking too much spoilage for others who might not have seen it yet: [MILD SPOILER] The moon is the Xindi equivalent of Bikini Atoll (mentionned in the episode), and the Andorian captain, who we've encountered a number of times before, volunteered for his mission to track down and assist Enterprise in its hunt for the Xindi weapon, unofficially in the hopes of repaying his perceived debt to Archer.[END MILD SPOILER]

Humphrey, if you want a more detailed synopsis, feel free to PM me, or email me at the address in my profile.

All in all, I really liked this episode. The effects were good (although Aodoi's right, the perspective in some shots made it hard to gauge the relative size of certain space objects. The plot twists were mildly obvious, but not agonizingly so like in a few episodes earlier this season.

SeanF, you're right, Coombs is a lot of fun in this episode.

Glom
2004-Jan-23, 12:18 AM
When John Billingsby appeared on Stargate SG-1, his character was named Coombs. Perhaps a homage to the one good performer with a good character (Billingsby himself is a good performer) on Enterprise.

SpaceTrekkie
2004-Jan-23, 09:21 PM
Chosen realm? It was ok IMO....they are really starting to get A LOT better since the first season but this definitally wasn't one of the better ones...but still a great improvement over the earlier ones. Could i have been any more vage? Oh well if you want more (spoliers) let me know.

-ST

ooops i mis read Humphreys post..i thought it said LAST weeks..... #-o #-o #-o

Humphrey
2004-Jan-30, 10:48 PM
Some AMAZING news:

From: http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/art-main.html?2004-01/30/10.30.rumors

Cinescape Online is reporting a rumor that an overhaul may be in the works for UPN's lackluster Star Trek: Enterprise. Citing an anonymous source, the site reported that Paramount Television Productions president Garry Hart may make changes to the show's production staff after February sweeps, including the possible replacement of longtime executive producer Rick Berman.

UPN recently announced that it was moving Enterprise to a later timeslot, 9 p.m. Wednesdays, from its current 8 p.m., starting in March.

Emphasis mine. :-)

Zamboni
2004-Jan-31, 04:44 AM
Jim: Bring back Roddenberry!!!
Bones: He's dead, Jim
Jim: Scotty how about that time machine of yours?
Scotty: Damn it Jim I'm an engineer not a miracle worker!

Sparks
2004-Jan-31, 09:36 AM
Does this mean we might actually see episodes where Jolene keeps her top on and doesn't do the psuedo-lesbian thing to boost ratings? :rolleyes:

*sigh*
I mean, it's not that she's not very easy on the eye, but I'm watching Enterprise for science fiction, not soft porn. A time and a place and all that....

Humphrey
2004-Jan-31, 07:07 PM
I'm with you on that. Really nice to look at her, but i would rather have a plot.

But it could also reflect on thw whole trek industry. We might actually see the next Trek movie being worth paying the money for.

P.S. where is glom and stuart on this? i thought they would be jumping off the walls cheering about this. :-)

johnwitts
2004-Jan-31, 11:52 PM
Why do I still really like Enterprise? I can't wait for each week's episode. Talking of which, where is this week's episode? Last one I saw was Proving Ground. Very good. I get a feeling I'm seeing them before they are aired, but don't quote me on that... :)

Humphrey
2004-Feb-01, 12:02 AM
Why do I still really like Enterprise?
I have no clue. Maybe running apollohoax has warped your mind. :-)



...where is this week's episode?

Show last week ususally. It was a rerun.


I get a feeling I'm seeing them before they are aired, but don't quote me on that... :)
O.K. i wont. :wink:

johnwitts
2004-Feb-01, 12:16 AM
All through the Summer, it was an episode a week. There was a break of one week for what I guess was Thankgiving, then a big break over Christmas, two episodes in two weeks then nothing this week. Can someone keep me up to date when there's a new episode due out? Also, I'm finding the same with episodes of Friends, if it's not too much trouble... Either that, or a link to a US TV guide, cos I'm in the UK.

AKONI
2004-Feb-01, 01:03 AM
Cinescape Online is reporting a rumor that an overhaul may be in the works for UPN's lackluster Star Trek: Enterprise. Citing an anonymous source, the site reported that Paramount Television Productions president Garry Hart may make changes to the show's production staff after February sweeps, including the possible replacement of longtime executive producer Rick Berman.

Has there been any news on why he might be replaced and who would replace him? I know the obvious reasons why the fans want him replaced, but that might not be the same reason Garry Hart may want him replaced.

frenat
2004-Feb-01, 01:09 AM
All through the Summer, it was an episode a week. There was a break of one week for what I guess was Thankgiving, then a big break over Christmas, two episodes in two weeks then nothing this week. Can someone keep me up to date when there's a new episode due out? Also, I'm finding the same with episodes of Friends, if it's not too much trouble... Either that, or a link to a US TV guide, cos I'm in the UK.

Start up a new yahoo account, then add TV listings to you MY Yahoo page and tell it you are in a US city.

Space_Tycoon
2004-Feb-01, 04:28 AM
Why do I still really like Enterprise? I can't wait for each week's episode.

Maybe because it doesn't suck nearly as much as people think. Maybe there's more to it than meets first glance.

Btw, this is my first posting on the BA message boards. Special prize goes to whomever can tell me which other boards they have seen me on...

johnwitts
2004-Feb-01, 10:39 AM
Why do I still really like Enterprise? I can't wait for each week's episode.

Maybe because it doesn't suck nearly as much as people think. Maybe there's more to it than meets first glance.


That's true. Remember the first episode of Next Gen, DS9 and Voyager? They were all pretty pants but the series got better quite quickly. This may have something to do with the continuity between series, so nothing was done from scratch. They were all from the same time using the same level of technology etc. Enterprise is from a different time, something we've never seen before so it really is a new show. I think most people hate it because it's different and unfamiliar. Get over it. It's supposed to be.

SpaceTrekkie
2004-Feb-01, 03:02 PM
That's true. Remember the first episode of Next Gen, DS9 and Voyager? They were all pretty pants but the series got better quite quickly.

I am a big fan of TNG but man were the first few episodes terrible! all the over acting and the way Frakes stood! IMO Enterprise doesn't really suck all that much and it is deffinitly getting better. I look foward to every weeks episode!

-ST

ToSeek
2004-Feb-01, 03:38 PM
Why do I still really like Enterprise? I can't wait for each week's episode.

Maybe because it doesn't suck nearly as much as people think. Maybe there's more to it than meets first glance.


That's true. Remember the first episode of Next Gen, DS9 and Voyager? They were all pretty pants but the series got better quite quickly. This may have something to do with the continuity between series, so nothing was done from scratch. They were all from the same time using the same level of technology etc. Enterprise is from a different time, something we've never seen before so it really is a new show. I think most people hate it because it's different and unfamiliar. Get over it. It's supposed to be.

No, I hate it because it's exploitative, unimaginative, pretends to do something truly dramatic but then presses the reset button, and has a main character who's an idiot.

Moose
2004-Feb-01, 04:47 PM
Why do I still really like Enterprise? I can't wait for each week's episode.

Maybe because it doesn't suck nearly as much as people think. Maybe there's more to it than meets first glance.


That's true. Remember the first episode of Next Gen, DS9 and Voyager? They were all pretty pants but the series got better quite quickly. This may have something to do with the continuity between series, so nothing was done from scratch. They were all from the same time using the same level of technology etc. Enterprise is from a different time, something we've never seen before so it really is a new show. I think most people hate it because it's different and unfamiliar. Get over it. It's supposed to be.

No, I hate it because it's exploitative, unimaginative, pretends to do something truly dramatic but then presses the reset button, and has a main character who's an idiot.

You forgot "Death to Braga and Berman".

Exploitative? Try all other treks in their own way. (Voyager exploited the (late) success of DS9, and the formula of TOS and TNG. DS9, for half of its production run, exploited the success of TNG. TNG exploited the success of TOS. And TOS quite simply exploited the female cast members.

Unimaginative? Heh. The only two series that can claim to have been imaginative is TOS (and only because they were first), and DS9 once it stopped ripping off TNG. Voyager hadn't had an imaginative moment in its entire run.

TOS and TNG never had even the barest hint of a real continuity arc. Not until DS9 broke through that barrier around season 4 has any trek had one. While Enterprise has overused the paradox angle, it also has continuity.

And I've never gotten what you mean about Archer being an idiot. A cowboy? Sure. But if you're going to condemn him for that, be sure to tar Kirk with the very same brush.

DataCable
2004-Feb-01, 07:20 PM
TOS and TNG never had even the barest hint of a real continuity arc.
This was actually touched on a bit in one of the interviews on the TNG DVD sets. I think it was Ron Moore who said that early on in TNG, one of the rules (perhaps unwritten, perhaps not, I don't recall) was "no continuing stories." But with Worf's discommendation in "Sins of the Father," they did start a minor arc which had to be picked up later on, which opened the door to a few others.


Not until DS9 broke through that barrier around season 4 has any trek had one.
And one is left to wonder how much influence B5 played in this (to say nothing of the charge that the whole DS9 concept was possibly "steered" by P'mount bigwigs after rejecting JMS' pitch, but that's a whole different thread.)

Personally, I thought the whole Dominion War arc dragged on way too long, and got tied up way to quickly. (Though Voyager's last-30-seconds-of-the-last-episode wrapup was worse.)

DataCable
2004-Feb-01, 07:42 PM
Oops, got an error, thought it didn't post. (please delete)

The Bad Astronomer
2004-Feb-01, 07:54 PM
I think it was Ron Moore who said that early on in TNG, one of the rules (perhaps unwritten, perhaps not, I don't recall) was "no continuing stories."

Hmmm... that doesn't quite ring true. The final episode of the first season of TNG was a clear attempt to set the stage for the Borg (although at the time they probably didn't have a specific threat in mind yet). The episode with the crabs that took over the Federation ("Conspiracy") implied another story, though it wasn't imperative, and in fact never showed up again.

R.A.F.
2004-Feb-01, 08:13 PM
Talking about "continuing story lines", what about Q?
He showed up what...7 times during TNG's run, including the very first and the very last episode. And each time he appeared, they always referred to his previous visits.

Added...I still find it a shame that Q was not featured in any of the TNG movies, and I seriously doubt that any more will be made. I do believe that Nemesis has "killed the franchise".

constible
2004-Feb-01, 08:16 PM
I do have to say Enterprise is getting more interesting. It did start off terrible, but it slowly has picked up, similiar to Voyager.

They overuse Archer and T'Pol. Archer's had more lines in one episode than Mayweather's had in the entire series. There was enough Hoshi in the first season, but now, I don't even know if she's still on the air.


Also, not enough Porthos.

And is it just me, or is Malcolm and Reed essentially the same character. They both whine, they both want things done their way, etc. Is it just me, or does anyone notice this as well?

\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ 4 posts
Hehehehe, oooops. Maybe that shows you my confusion. How on earth could I forget it's Charles Tucker III?

Humphrey
2004-Feb-01, 08:20 PM
I do not like Enterprise for many of the same reasons Toseek explaind. I also do not like TOS for the same reasosn. While looking at great looking girls is very fun, i would rather have a good story and good acting.

TNG and DS9 had some amazing acting in there. Sure DS9 lost alot of its steam when it started to get very religious, it still did have great acting in its episodes.

But Enterprise instead focuses more on its women and its special effects. The dialogue is (usually) formulaic and unorigonal. It is rarely dramatic between the characters. There is very little interaction between the characters on a dramatic standpoint untill recently (3 years in!) with the loss of trip's sister and the begining relationship b/t him and the T'pol. I do agree that dramaticalls and interaction between the crew is getting better. But it has a long way to go to wherre i can feel like they are a crew who would sacrifice their lives for eachother.

On TNG and DS9 you knew and felt the interaction and freindship between the characters. On Enterprise, this is nearly nonexistant. They just tolerate eachother to9 get the mission done.

When was the last time we have seen them joking it up na djust plain having fun in the recreation rooms? How long has it been since a episode that does not require explosions and aliens, but rather focuses inside of the ship and on the interactions of the crew themselves?

Humphrey
2004-Feb-01, 08:27 PM
I do have to say Enterprise is getting more interesting. It did start off terrible, but it slowly has picked up, similiar to Voyager.

They overuse Archer and T'Pol. Archer's had more lines in one episode than Mayweather's had in the entire series. There was enough Hoshi in the first season, but now, I don't even know if she's still on the air.


Also, not enough Porthos.

And is it just me, or is Malcolm and Reed essentially the same character. They both whine, they both want things done their way, etc. Is it just me, or does anyone notice this as well?

Yah several characters have gone missing for many episodes. Hoshi, mayweather.

Glom
2004-Feb-01, 08:45 PM
The events of 'Conspiracy' were foreshadowed in 'Coming of Age'.

SpaceTrekkie
2004-Feb-01, 08:48 PM
And is it just me, or is Malcolm and Reed essentially the same character. They both whine, they both want things done their way, etc. Is it just me, or does anyone notice this as well?

Um...the character's name is Lt. Malcolm Reed. He is one person.

-ST

Glom
2004-Feb-01, 08:51 PM
While looking at great looking girls is very fun, i would rather have a good story and good acting.

Classic was a hammy and cheesy and camp and female costumes madely cheaply (ie not much material). But, it had 'The Cage', 'The Corbomite Maneuver', 'The Enemy Within', 'Balance of Terror', 'The Squire of Gothos', 'Arena', 'The Return of the Archons', 'A Taste of Armageddon', 'Space Seed', 'This Side of Paradise', 'The Devil in the Dark', 'Errand of Mercy', 'The City on the Edge of Forever', 'Who Mourns for Adonais?', 'Mirror, Mirror', 'A Private Little War', 'The Gamesters of Triskelion', 'Return to Tomorrow', 'The Tholian Web', 'For the World is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky'.

Zamboni
2004-Feb-01, 09:17 PM
And is it just me, or is Malcolm and Reed essentially the same character. They both whine, they both want things done their way, etc. Is it just me, or does anyone notice this as well?

Um...the character's name is Lt. Malcolm Reed. He is one person.

-ST

Hahahahahahaha!!! *ROTFLMAO*

LOL!!!

I used to think Trip was two people as well! Muhahahahaha!

johnwitts
2004-Feb-01, 10:07 PM
So anyway, when should I be looking out for the next episode?

ToSeek
2004-Feb-02, 01:42 AM
Exploitative? Try all other treks in their own way. (Voyager exploited the (late) success of DS9, and the formula of TOS and TNG. DS9, for half of its production run, exploited the success of TNG. TNG exploited the success of TOS. And TOS quite simply exploited the female cast members.

I was primarily referring to the gratuitous sexual innuendo, not to derivativeness.


Unimaginative? Heh. The only two series that can claim to have been imaginative is TOS (and only because they were first), and DS9 once it stopped ripping off TNG. Voyager hadn't had an imaginative moment in its entire run.

I hated Voyager, too, for similar reasons. They had a good setup that they utterly threw away - the Maquis and the Feds should have been at each other's throats half the time, and the ship should have been subsisting on baling wire and duct tape by the third season.

I disagree about TNG: they had some episodes that were truly imaginative science fiction.


And I've never gotten what you mean about Archer being an idiot. A cowboy? Sure. But if you're going to condemn him for that, be sure to tar Kirk with the very same brush.

The most recent example is when the Enterprise was in the Expanse (more or less enemy territory) with their weapons down. When they detect an unknown ship, Archer immediately goes to investigate. That should be a court-martial offense right there, and it's only the most recent instance.

AKONI
2004-Feb-02, 02:19 AM
TOS had some great storylines. I haven't watched the show in years because I watched it too much when I was younger, and you can even get sick of your favorite food if you have it for dinner every night.

So enough time has passed... I sat down to watch the show the other day and realized I appreciate what they were doing even more so now that I'm older. Great morality plays. Nothing like that was on television at the time. Really,.. really good story lines.



So anyway, when should I be looking out for the next episode?

Tonight they're re-runing what they showed on Wednesday (at least they do so in NYC). Archer loses his memory,.. and I liked the ending. They could have used the old stand by "it was all a dream," but went in a different direction.


The most recent example is when the Enterprise was in the Expanse (more or less enemy territory) with their weapons down. When they detect an unknown ship, Archer immediately goes to investigate. That should be a court-martial offense right there, and it's only the most recent instance.

Yeah you're right. I've seen the same thing on TNG regarding bad decisions. A women is going to kill someone, she does not have superior strength, and so Riker shoots her. She is still standing, so he raises the strength of the phaser and shoots her again,.. this happenes two more times until he sets the phaser on "kill," all while pleading with her not to take another step towards her intended victim.

She was ten steps away. He could have just walked over and held her down, but instead slowly shot her to death.

All while Picard looked on saying nothing. He'll, he could have held her down while Riker stunned her. And then they're all remorseful over her death.

What was that????

tracer
2004-Feb-02, 05:56 AM
I liked how, at the end when the Enterprise was flying away, the Andorian captain shook his fist at Captain Archer and cursed, "I'll get you next time, Gadget! Next time!"

Although the subsequent "mreow!" from his pet cat was a bit much.

DataCable
2004-Feb-02, 02:24 PM
Tonight they're re-runing what they showed on Wednesday (at least they do so in NYC). Archer loses his memory,.. and I liked the ending. They could have used the old stand by "it was all a dream," but went in a different direction.
That one felt like a rerun to me just for the simple fact that it lifted so many re-used elements from previous Trek plotlines: TNG Yesterday's Enterprise, TNG Future Imprefect (with a Memento twist), VOY Year of Hell, probably a few others I'm forgetting at the moment. SG-1 even had an ep with the same basic framework (set decades in the future, main characters sacrifice themsleves to prevent the timeline from happening, etc...), the title of which escapes me.

Glom
2004-Feb-02, 02:44 PM
'2010'

johnwitts
2004-Feb-02, 11:22 PM
'2010'

2010? What about it?

Glom
2004-Feb-03, 02:28 AM
Set in 2010. The Goa'uld have been defeated and Earth is a peaceful haven thanks to a race called the Aschen. Except, SG1 realises that the Aschen have spread sterility throughout the population as a means of slowly wiping out Tau'ri. So Carter hatches another wacky plan to send a warning to the past to prevent SG1 from meeting the Aschen in the first place.

ToSeek
2004-Feb-03, 03:36 AM
I do have to say Enterprise is getting more interesting. It did start off terrible, but it slowly has picked up, similiar to Voyager.

They overuse Archer and T'Pol. Archer's had more lines in one episode than Mayweather's had in the entire series. There was enough Hoshi in the first season, but now, I don't even know if she's still on the air.


Also, not enough Porthos.

And is it just me, or is Malcolm and Reed essentially the same character. They both whine, they both want things done their way, etc. Is it just me, or does anyone notice this as well?

Yah several characters have gone missing for many episodes. Hoshi, mayweather.

There was a good Hoshi-centered episode just a few weeks ago. I thought that one was interesting because it had a sort of TOS feel to it somehow.

Humphrey
2004-Feb-03, 03:40 AM
The one with the telekenetic alien? That was a few months ago wasnt it? Or have i missed one?

But even then. She was a main character in nearly every first and second season epiode. What happened to her? Is she trying to get out of her contract?

And Mayweather who used to be a main character in season one has now becoem generic nameless pilot with yellow/red shirt that had 4 lines and nobody cares about that they used alot in TNG.

But what about the comradery between the cast? From my watching i find little if any. There was a growing friendship bewteen trip and archer, but that has seemed to fall to the side. I enjoyed when they would sit in a room and watch water polo. What happened to those moments?

devil's advocate
2004-Feb-03, 08:39 PM
BA, I read that some VOY writers wanted to do an episode on the crab things, but producers shot it down. The parasites were going to take over a Delta Quadrant and use them to attack the Feds.

Glom
2004-Feb-03, 09:24 PM
BA, I read that some VOY writers wanted to do an episode on the crab things, but producers shot it down. The parasites were going to take over a Delta Quadrant and use them to attack the Feds.

Which producers would they be then?

devil's advocate
2004-Feb-03, 09:34 PM
Don't remember. I'll look into it. I think I still have the article...

Val Trottan
2004-Feb-05, 03:49 PM
I liked this week's episode a lot.
Archer and the gang are getting wily int he ways of interogation and it is great to see that these Starfleet people are so... um... sneaky and actually doing what they need to do to get the job done.
They had no qualms about capturing, interrogating and imprisoning the Xindi. It was almost immoral.

I think they are in a stride, but I see from the trailer that next week is back to the sex.

Hmmm. I don't think I can complain too loudly about that. If they want to have the crew stripping... who am I to say they shouldn't?

ToSeek
2004-Feb-05, 06:07 PM
Is it fair to conclude that last night's episode was a new one? Our TV listing wasn't clear, so we watched something on PBS instead.

frenat
2004-Feb-05, 06:52 PM
Yes it was. When I want to know if it is a new episode or not, I check the Yahoo tv listings. That is almost always right on.

SeanF
2004-Feb-05, 07:31 PM
Is it fair to conclude that last night's episode was a new one?

:cry:

Stuart
2004-Feb-05, 08:19 PM
where is glom and stuart on this? i thought they would be jumping off the walls cheering about this. :-)

I gave up on ST:E a couple of months ago (with the sex-slave episode). It's just become a "how do we humiliate Jolene Blalock this week" show. Incidently, I caught her in an episode of CSI recently; she's a much better actress than ST:E allows.

ToSeek
2004-Feb-05, 08:24 PM
Is it fair to conclude that last night's episode was a new one?

:cry:

Don't cry on my account - they show it here again Saturday night, and we'll catch it then.

SeanF
2004-Feb-05, 08:27 PM
Is it fair to conclude that last night's episode was a new one?

:cry:

Don't cry on my account - they show it here again Saturday night, and we'll catch it then.

I'm crying on my own account (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=10856), not yours. I don't even get the weekend reruns anymore . . .

Humphrey
2004-Feb-05, 10:05 PM
This weeks was a good one. Good acting and plot. Puls some surprises foir us even.

ToSeek
2004-Feb-05, 10:13 PM
Is it fair to conclude that last night's episode was a new one?

:cry:

Don't cry on my account - they show it here again Saturday night, and we'll catch it then.

I'm crying on my own account (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=10856), not yours. I don't even get the weekend reruns anymore . . .

All right, I'll cry on your account instead. http://www.atozkidsstuff.com/images/sm_hi548.gif

Zamboni
2004-Feb-06, 12:17 AM
This weeks was a good one. Good acting and plot. Puls some surprises foir us even.

Yes it was quite a surprise to see T'pol fully dressed through-out an entire episode... :lol:

Just kidding, the twist was very interesting...

tuffel999
2004-Feb-06, 12:36 AM
This weeks was a good one. Good acting and plot. Puls some surprises foir us even.

Yes it was quite a surprise to see T'pol fully dressed through-out an entire episode... :lol:

Just kidding, the twist was very interesting...

First ep I have seen in a while.....have really been missing something or was this a fluke like it sounds from the discussion?

Humphrey
2004-Feb-06, 04:10 AM
Fluke. I am guessing that the normal executive producers were missing for this one. A script without T&A, and one that had good plot elements, interesting events, and character development slipped through.

Zamboni
2004-Feb-06, 06:33 AM
Alas, the last few episodes were of better quality than the ones before... Logic dictates the chance of such random happenings is negligible.

(and now to complete my trekkie impersonation)
Live Long and Prosper...

AKONI
2004-Feb-10, 08:04 AM
The previews to the next episode look like a soft core porn film. Shouldn't this be on cinimax late at night?

Zamboni
2004-Feb-10, 07:26 PM
Dammit I knew the recent "good" episodes were just fluke! I'm switching to Dead like me instead...

Aodoi
2004-Feb-11, 05:52 PM
I watched an episode of TNG last night and I finally put my finger on something that's been bugging me about Enterprise. There is no discussion among the crew. TNG they have that briefing room off the bridge, they sit down and the various characters give opinions on the issue at hand. Even if the characterizations were a bit thin (Worf - "We should shoot them." Diana - "We should talk to them" etc.) there was actual discussion.

In Enterprise the only discussions are very brief. Archer says they're going to do something, maybe one token objection, then they do it. Almost all decisions are made by a single person, there's no sense of interaction, just a bunch of stand alone characters.

That said, I still watch it because I'm a sucker for Sci-Fi, and they haven't ruined it to the extent where I just give up (yet).

My primary objection has always been the time travel. There's no drama if there's always a way to go back in time and fix anything that happened. The episode where the Earth is destroyed is a prime example: you know they'll just push that big old time-travel reset button. Time travel can be done well (like the TNG one where they send Tasha Yar back in time), but it tends to just be completely lame. I actually gave last weeks an easier time than I might have just because it wasn't a real time travel episode.

Sparks
2004-Feb-11, 06:35 PM
My primary objection has always been the time travel.
If that's the only problem, you're doing well :)
Me, I am usually very annoyed that noone has a long-term memory. The ship is nearly destroyed, the crew are all converted to another species, the space-time continuthingy itself is nearly destroyed, and then a new technobabble widget saves the universe from certain doom - and a week later noone can remember it. Can noone even take notes?

johnwitts
2004-Feb-11, 08:06 PM
This weeks episode 'Harbinger' is really good. 3 stories in one where there's lots of crew interaction. It's just a shame that Hoshi had to die...

SeanF
2004-Feb-11, 08:53 PM
It's just a shame that Hoshi had to die...

Is this obsession of yours wishful thinking, John? ;)

Personally, I'd miss Hoshi . . .

johnwitts
2004-Feb-11, 11:20 PM
It's just a shame that Hoshi had to die...

Is this obsession of yours wishful thinking, John? ;)

Personally, I'd miss Hoshi . . .

I'd miss Hoshi too, and for those who haven't seen the episode, Hoshi doesn't die. I'm making a purile spoiler joke. If I comment on an episode and don't mention Hoshi's demise, people will know that she must have died in that episode... :)

It's a shame about Porthos though...

Humphrey
2004-Feb-12, 02:13 AM
ROFL John. :-)

But yah i have commented on the lack of social interaction beforee on the show. There is none. That is one of the major failings of the show and The reason why we have not fallen to rweally like any of the chAracters. Well except the Doctor, thats because he is the only one on the show who actually has a damed conversation with someone. Even if it is whith himself most of the time.

ToSeek
2004-Feb-12, 03:46 AM
ROFL John. :-)

But yah i have commented on the lack of social interaction beforee on the show. There is none. That is one of the major failings of the show and The reason why we have not fallen to rweally like any of the chAracters. Well except the Doctor, thats because he is the only one on the show who actually has a damed conversation with someone. Even if it is whith himself most of the time.

Or one of those nasty things in cages that he's always feeding.

Humphrey
2004-Feb-12, 03:49 AM
Spealing of that. Where do they store enougth food for several years of voyage. I mena they don;t have replicators, and so far the cargo bays shown seem to be prety empty. You would think that it would be like a Submarine where it soo packed with everything necessary for life you have to walk sideways down the corridors.

Zamboni
2004-Feb-12, 05:38 AM
They do have replicators... They call it "food synthesizers"; just like the phaser banks are called "phased cannon"... And they have plenty of it apparently since Trip gave away some ice cream makers in one of the episodes... (I think he did...)

Xbalanque
2004-Feb-12, 08:06 AM
They do have replicators... They call it "food synthesizers"; just like the phaser banks are called "phased cannon"... And they have plenty of it apparently since Trip gave away some ice cream makers in one of the episodes... (I think he did...)

Isn't there a chef, though? In one episode Hoshi was preparing some sort of soup, IIRC, I assume in the kitchen or whatever it would be called on a starship.

AKONI
2004-Feb-12, 08:18 PM
The previews to the next episode look like a soft core porn film. Shouldn't this be on cinimax late at night?

Damn previews!!!! I wrote that up above, but when I watched the episode it wasn't like that at all. I recently read that one of the main problems with the show is the producers are trying to appeal to boys in their teens.

Yes,.. because all of the other ST shows needed to do that to succeed. :roll:

JohnOwens
2004-Feb-12, 09:40 PM
Isn't there a chef, though? In one episode Hoshi was preparing some sort of soup, IIRC, I assume in the kitchen or whatever it would be called on a starship.
That would be the galley, generally.

Humphrey
2004-Feb-12, 10:05 PM
The Episode sucked. It was boring. No new character development, no interesting dialogue, and the promised "scenes" in the previews turned out to be exactly as long as the ones they show in the previews.

There is some problem solving with Malcom and that militray guy, but it barely registers on the plot meter. A sub standard episode that was supposed to be character development, but turned out to be a bunch of action scenes strung together.

The previous weeks episode shows how brilliant the series can be in the plot itself. Lets hope they pay that writer more than this one.

I just want to know how the heck they spend their free time. I want to see a rec room, or some people getting together to play a board game. Just something!

Zamboni
2004-Feb-13, 07:43 AM
Isn't there a chef, though?
Oh come on any trekkie can surely realize the standard answer: their replicators can't prduced fully cooked meals; instead they replicate raw materials and need to be cooked (hey just like voyager... another work of Berman's)



I just want to know how the heck they spend their free time. I want to see a rec room, or some people getting together to play a board game. Just something!
This is what they do on their free time: ma...

...intenance :lol:

Xbalanque
2004-Feb-13, 08:16 AM
At the risk of getting nitpicky, replicators in TNG can produce Earl Grey, hot for Picard and an enormous chocolate sundae with sprinkles for Troi. I believe the deal in Voyager was they needed to offset their finite supplies for the replicator with real food stocks that would, of course, have to be prepared.

Then again, these are just tv shows, and I should probably just let it go.

:oops:

Ripper 2.0
2004-Feb-13, 12:21 PM
That is one of the things I like about Firefly. "We have synthetic protien in all the colors of the rainbow."

daver
2004-Feb-13, 08:08 PM
At the risk of getting nitpicky, replicators in TNG can produce Earl Grey, hot for Picard and an enormous chocolate sundae with sprinkles for Troi. I believe the deal in Voyager was they needed to offset their finite supplies for the replicator with real food stocks that would, of course, have to be prepared.

Then again, these are just tv shows, and I should probably just let it go.

:oops:

Nah, dredge it up periodically to remind you what can be done in a good show.

In the old Trek, there were references to cooks and kitchens and actual frozen turkeys. They had the food dispensers, but it wasn't clear if the food that appeared from the dispensers was the result of replicator technology or just a fast mix-n-match from the stores in the ship. There's some indication of advancing technology in the show--the references to cooks and kitchens and stuff were mainly in the first season as i recall.

Voyager was just stupid; there's no point in trying to make sense of it.

SpaceTrekkie
2004-Feb-14, 03:18 AM
I think i remember reading somewhere on the Trek site that voyagers replicators failed at one point and they had to cook the raw food. They fixed them but the crew was enjoying the "home-cooked" meals sooo much more that they just kept doing that. I dunno tho i really could be wrong...it is only a vague memory of something i read.

-ST

Moose
2004-Feb-14, 01:33 PM
What happened was that as the senior staff were getting concerned about their deminishing energy-production supplies. Because they were never sure about when/where they would be able to replenish, Janeway instituted power-saving measures.

One of these measures was to ration the use of the replicators for food production. Each member of the crew was budgeted so much energy per week to be used by the replicator. They had to rely on stored physical supplies (and hydroponics) to make up the food shortfall.

Neelix had been assigned to handle the galley at this point.

I think this happened at some point in season two?

captain swoop
2004-Feb-16, 09:47 AM
One of these measures was to ration the use of the replicators for food production. Each member of the crew was budgeted so much energy per week to be used by the replicator. They had to rely on stored physical supplies (and hydroponics) to make up the food shortfall.

Neelix had been assigned to handle the galley at this point.



And how realistic was that?

One guy with his little stew pot bubbling away to provide all the meals for an entire crew?

Had any of the people involved in the show ever seen a commercial kitchen or ships galley providing that number of meals?

AstroSmurf
2004-Feb-16, 10:06 AM
One guy with his little stew pot bubbling away to provide all the meals for an entire crew?

Had any of the people involved in the show ever seen a commercial kitchen or ships galley providing that number of meals?
So, does this count as Bad Cooking or Bad Logistics?

Aodoi
2004-Feb-16, 07:23 PM
The Episode sucked. It was boring. No new character development, no interesting dialogue, and the promised "scenes" in the previews turned out to be exactly as long as the ones they show in the previews. Yeah, wasn't real thrilled with it. Kept having to fight the urge to skip ahead on Tivo.


There is some problem solving with Malcom and that militray guy, but it barely registers on the plot meter. A sub standard episode that was supposed to be character development, but turned out to be a bunch of action scenes strung together. Only part of the episode I thought worth watching (in hindsight). 2 guys pummelling each other into a mutual understanding is fine, and potentially entertaining, but it seemed too contrived and a bit too late (like, haven't the MACOs been aboard for months and months already?)


I just want to know how the heck they spend their free time. I want to see a rec room, or some people getting together to play a board game. Just something!It's sad that I'm almost nostalgic for those poker games from TNG. Or even the holodeck malfunction filler episodes!

daver
2004-Feb-17, 05:45 PM
One of these measures was to ration the use of the replicators for food production. Each member of the crew was budgeted so much energy per week to be used by the replicator. They had to rely on stored physical supplies (and hydroponics) to make up the food shortfall.

Neelix had been assigned to handle the galley at this point.

I think this happened at some point in season two?

One of the early shows had them concerned about the food situation. It turns out that even though the ship was hopelessly overcrowded that there was an unused storage bay, Kes suggested that they convert it to a hydroponics source, Janeway told her to do it.

I've mentioned this scene before (it's probably the longest single bit of V'ger I've watched outside of the opening episode); it's almost hilarious how many things there are wrong with it. The scene was obviously written to show Janeway doing something right--giving the person who knows most about a subject the task of implementing it, despite the person not being in the normal command chain.

The most blatant thing wrong with it is that there's an unused cargo hold. The ship itself is standing room only, yet they've got this enormous hold that is completely unused.

The second is equipment. Hydroponics takes a bunch of specialized equipment; equipment the Starship is almost certainly not going to have ready-made. The replicators are down--where are they going to get it? Keep in mind that replicators seem to be the primary means of doing just about everything--it's not all that clear that the starship even has a metal lathe (why bother when your replicator can do the job faster better cheaper and takes up less room).

The third is energy. Hydroponics is an exteremly inefficient way of converting joules to calories. They'd already mentioned that they're short of energy (and that somehow the energy produced by the holodeck isn't compatible with the rest of the ship (which leads to another series of insanities)).

The fourth is seed material. Hydroponics requires root stock--viable root stock. How many carrots do they have capable of growing more carrots? Maybe a couple in the biolabs?

And the fifth is time. It takes time to grow food--if the replicators are down now (and the implication was that they were), having potatoes three months from now isn't going to be all that useful (they could rename the ship the S. S. Donner, I suppose. By the time the tomatoes are ready the overcrowding problem should have worked itself out).

JohnOwens
2004-Feb-17, 07:02 PM
The third is energy. Hydroponics is an exteremly inefficient way of converting joules to calories. They'd already mentioned that they're short of energy (and that somehow the energy produced by the holodeck isn't compatible with the rest of the ship (which leads to another series of insanities)).

Well, if it can work for powering the machines in The Matrix with an extra level of inefficiency.... #-o

SeanF
2004-Feb-17, 07:17 PM
. . . the ship was hopelessly overcrowded . . . The ship itself is standing room only . . .

Methinks you're misremembering something. I'm pretty sure Voyager lost more of her original crew in the transit to the Delta Quadrant than were replaced by the picked-up Maquis. They were undercrewed during the series, not overcrewed. Although there may have been mention early on of crowding people together in order to conserve energy by powering down sections of the ship . . . ?


Hydroponics is an exteremly inefficient way of converting joules to calories.

So, just out of curiosity, what would you recommend as a more efficient way of growing food on a starship?

The Bad Astronomer
2004-Feb-17, 07:39 PM
2 guys pummelling each other into a mutual understanding is fine, and potentially entertaining, but it seemed too contrived and a bit too late

This to me was a clear homage to the original series episode "The Trouble With Tribbles", right down to Archer's line about not caring who threw the first punch.

R.A.F.
2004-Feb-17, 07:46 PM
This to me was a clear homage to the original series episode "The Trouble With Tribbles", right down to Archer's line about not caring who threw the first punch.

I noticed that. Though it wasn't half as funny as the original, with Kirk's line, "Scotty! You threw the first punch??"

ZaphodBeeblebrox
2004-Feb-17, 08:39 PM
This to me was a clear homage to the original series episode "The Trouble With Tribbles", right down to Archer's line about not caring who threw the first punch.

I noticed that. Though it wasn't half as funny as the original, with Kirk's line, "Scotty! You threw the first punch??"

No no, the Best Part, was Kirk's Reaction to finding out the insult to him wasn't the Fight Starter.

That only insulting The Ship, would set off Scotty!

daver
2004-Feb-17, 10:55 PM
. . . the ship was hopelessly overcrowded . . . The ship itself is standing room only . . .

Methinks you're misremembering something. I'm pretty sure Voyager lost more of her original crew in the transit to the Delta Quadrant than were replaced by the picked-up Maquis.

Could be. That's not the way I remember it; they may have changed concepts or I could have misunderstood.

They were undercrewed during the series, not overcrewed. Although there may have been mention early on of crowding people together in order to conserve energy by powering down sections of the ship . . . ?


Hydroponics is an exteremly inefficient way of converting joules to calories.

So, just out of curiosity, what would you recommend as a more efficient way of growing food on a starship?
Replicators, if you have them. A ship designed for replicators (particularly a short-haul ship) is not going to have more than a few weeks worth of emergency rations and nothing like hydroponics.

If you don't have replicators and are no more than a few months out of base, you go with frozen/stored food (like modern submarines). Maybe someone grows tomatoes for a hobby if you have lots of room and lots of energy to spare, but it's strictly a luxury item.

If you don't have replicators and your mission lasts for years, you go the hydroponic route. It's pretty much the choice of last resort.

Aodoi
2004-Feb-17, 11:06 PM
This to me was a clear homage to the original series episode "The Trouble With Tribbles", right down to Archer's line about not caring who threw the first punch.You're probably right. I just thought the timing made it weird. I mean, these two guys have been on the same (fairly small) ship together for months through numerous life threatening situations, and this comes up now? Seems like it would have worked better earlier on. You know, give the MACOs some personality so they're not just the longer lived red-shirted crewmen on Enterprise. I don't think I actually knew which of the MACOs was the commander before this episode (though admittedly I haven't been following that closely).

Was also kind of annoyed at the lack of humor Archer showed, and leaving the two guys standing there ("Are we dismissed?") seemed more like incompetence than anything else. I mean, be a hard-(nose), or be slightly amused by it, but don't try to be both.

It definately had possibilities, but I thought the execution was lacking.

[slight spoilers/speculation]





While we're at it, what was up with the giant space pustule? That effect seemed totally wrong, and far too organic for something immense in out space. Not to mention the speed parts of it would have to move at to act like it did. And that shot went quick ("giant space pustule with a guy in it!" "pull the guy out" "ok, focus on the guy and not the immense space pustule. In fact, barely aknowledge that MacGuffin (sp?) for the rest of the episode!"

Didn't the alien look just like the guys from the temporal cold war (remember that dropped plot thread?). Am I misremembering? Aside from the whole dying/molting thing I thought he could be one of them. Unless I missed something that makes that unfeasible or at least sensible. :D

Moose
2004-Feb-18, 12:01 PM
. . . the ship was hopelessly overcrowded . . . The ship itself is standing room only . . .

Methinks you're misremembering something. I'm pretty sure Voyager lost more of her original crew in the transit to the Delta Quadrant than were replaced by the picked-up Maquis.


Could be. That's not the way I remember it; they may have changed concepts or I could have misunderstood.


It would have had to have been that way, if you think about it. Otherwise, what would have been the incentive to assimilate the Maquis crew? Had Janeway been overcrewed, (unlikely, considering the casulties), she wouldn't have brought the Maquis on board in the first place. Chakotay had a perfectly operable ship, remember. But neither faction had enough surviving crew to make up even a skeleton roster.

Otherwise, how would Chakotay have been granted a field promotion to commander? (Janeway's first officer was killed.) B'Elanna Chief Engineer? Janeway's original chief engineer was killed. The ship's medical crew all died, leaving the holographic doctor to take over, much to his own (at the time) dismay.


They were undercrewed during the series, not overcrewed. Although there may have been mention early on of crowding people together in order to conserve energy by powering down sections of the ship . . . ?


I can't say for sure, but I think I remember something along those lines.




Hydroponics is an exteremly inefficient way of converting joules to calories.

So, just out of curiosity, what would you recommend as a more efficient way of growing food on a starship?
Replicators, if you have them. A ship designed for replicators (particularly a short-haul ship) is not going to have more than a few weeks worth of emergency rations and nothing like hydroponics.
[/quote]

Replicators are space efficient, certainly. But how much energy does it take to replicate a carrot? Does it take more than growing one?




If you don't have replicators and are no more than a few months out of base, you go with frozen/stored food (like modern submarines). Maybe someone grows tomatoes for a hobby if you have lots of room and lots of energy to spare, but it's strictly a luxury item.


This is likely the most efficient, but least sustainable (or least self-sufficient) option.

Speaking, I'm pretty sure Neelix mentionned several times where supplies had been brought on board, so I suspect the solution was a combination of all three approaches.



If you don't have replicators and your mission lasts for years, you go the
hydroponic route. It's pretty much the choice of last resort.

Again, that depends entirely on whether replicating a carrot requires more, or less, energy than growning one.

As far as how it was accomplished, easy.

Remember, the energy problem was considered a long term issue they needed to tackle early, once they got the initial mission problems ironned out. They weren't out of energy, but they did need to stretch it out as much as they could, because they came to realise that they weren't going to get all that much help in the Delta Quadrant.

Hydroponics and operating a galley was considered a long term means of extending the life of the energy they could produce.

Replicate the equipment and the seed stock. Replicate food until you have crops ready, then wean the crew off of replication in favor of grown. Continue to replicate to suppliment supplies what you can't grow.

As far as the answer to which is less inefficient is concerned, all we can offer is our opinion. My personal feel is that it requires considerably more energy to replicate than to grow, but since space is generally a premium, and under ordinary circumstances, energy is relatively cheap to produce/obtain on a starship...

SeanF
2004-Feb-18, 02:33 PM
If you don't have replicators and your mission lasts for years, you go the hydroponic route. It's pretty much the choice of last resort.

But that's the situation they found themselves in. They didn't have (unlimited) replicators, and their mission was (now) going to last for years. So why do you have a problem with them going the hydroponic route?

Chuck
2004-Feb-18, 02:58 PM
It would have had to have been that way, if you think about it. Otherwise, what would have been the incentive to assimilate the Maquis crew? Had Janeway been overcrewed, (unlikely, considering the casulties), she wouldn't have brought the Maquis on board in the first place. Chakotay had a perfectly operable ship, remember. But neither faction had enough surviving crew to make up even a skeleton roster. If I remember correctly, Chakotay rammed one of the Kazon ships with the Maquis ship to save Voyager near the end of the second episode.

johnwitts
2004-Feb-18, 05:13 PM
This weeks episode of Enterprise is quite good if you can catch it. It's just a shame Hoshi had to die... :)

daver
2004-Feb-18, 05:19 PM
If you don't have replicators and your mission lasts for years, you go the hydroponic route. It's pretty much the choice of last resort.

But that's the situation they found themselves in. They didn't have (unlimited) replicators, and their mission was (now) going to last for years. So why do you have a problem with them going the hydroponic route?
The ship doesn't have the plumbing, the lighting, the fertilizers, or the food stocks for hydroponics. I don't think it has the space, either, but that's somewhat debatable. There is a long lead time from planting the seed to getting something edible out. If the replicators are out, they're going to have a great deal of difficulty in getting any of the raw materials.

If the replicators aren't out, what is it about the replicators that makes them so unreliable that hydroponics seems reasonable?

Moose
2004-Feb-18, 06:02 PM
If you don't have replicators and your mission lasts for years, you go the hydroponic route. It's pretty much the choice of last resort.

But that's the situation they found themselves in. They didn't have (unlimited) replicators, and their mission was (now) going to last for years. So why do you have a problem with them going the hydroponic route?
The ship doesn't have the plumbing, the lighting, the fertilizers, or the food stocks for hydroponics. I don't think it has the space, either, but that's somewhat debatable. There is a long lead time from planting the seed to getting something edible out. If the replicators are out, they're going to have a great deal of difficulty in getting any of the raw materials.

The replicators weren't out. They worked just fine. The problem was that they didn't know if and where they could re"fuel".

If hydroponics would save energy in the long run, in exchange for an expenditure now (getting the equipment and raw materials together), it would have been worth the attempt. Which of course, considering they expected to be "at sea" 80 years or so, the investment was sure to pay off all around.

Moose
2004-Feb-18, 06:04 PM
This weeks episode of Enterprise is quite good if you can catch it. It's just a shame Hoshi had to die... :)

You do realize we're on to you by now, don't you?

Besides, everybody knows Porth... oops! #-o 8-[ Um, forget I said anything.

daver
2004-Feb-18, 06:20 PM
It would have had to have been that way, if you think about it. Otherwise, what would have been the incentive to assimilate the Maquis crew?

I'm not sure which way you're talking about. Both ships sustained massive casualties; however, as ST III ("You Klingon son! You killed my b*****d!") showed, it's possible to operate a Starship, so long as you don't have to fight, with an extremely small crew. Anyway, if both ships suffered 40% casualties, they may be shorthanded individually but the combination could still be overcrowded.

Had Janeway been overcrewed, (unlikely, considering the casulties), she wouldn't have brought the Maquis on board in the first place. Chakotay had a perfectly operable ship, remember. But neither faction had enough surviving crew to make up even a skeleton roster.

80% casualties? More? A good chunk of the crew of a warship is redundant, so it can continue operating in the event of casualties.

Did they actually say that they had lost enough that they couldn't mount a skeleton crew? That's pretty stupid, but that shouldn't surprise me.

As an aside, I'd assumed that they'd all piled into one ship because the other was damaged beyond repair. Obviously that wasn't the case.


Oops, I misread a post--it said the Maquis ship was destroyed near the end of the second EPISODE--i read it as second SEASON. I've deleted my lost puppy paragraph.




The ship's medical crew all died, leaving the holographic doctor to take over, much to his own (at the time) dismay.

The holodoc was one of my favorite characters, but insanely stupid in a scout ship (or whatever Janeway's ship class was).


Replicators are space efficient, certainly. But how much energy does it take to replicate a carrot? Does it take more than growing one?

I have no idea. There wasn't enough information in the shows I watched to tell. My guess is that a mechanical system would be much more efficient than a biological one; i doubt that it would be orders of magnitude less efficient.




If you don't have replicators and are no more than a few months out of base, you go with frozen/stored food (like modern submarines). Maybe someone grows tomatoes for a hobby if you have lots of room and lots of energy to spare, but it's strictly a luxury item.


This is likely the most efficient, but least sustainable (or least self-sufficient) option.

I'm sorry, but I don't get your point. Janeway's vessel was a short-haul vessel--designed for missions of up to a few months. Think nuclear sub if you want a modern-day analog. If they didn't have replicators, they'd use canned goods and freezers. Since they do have replicators, they'd only carry enough stores to tide them over in the event of an engine failure. The obvious implementation of a replicator has an unlimited output--so long as you feed it energy and raw materials it should continue to dump out food and clothing and whatnot.

Was there ever any mention of a ship's laundry?


Speaking, I'm pretty sure Neelix mentionned several times where supplies had been brought on board, so I suspect the solution was a combination of all three approaches.

Which means that replicators don't work the "obvious" way--by using tractor beams or transporter technology to manipulate atoms into the desired configuration. In which case, you have to wonder why they call them replicators.



If you don't have replicators and your mission lasts for years, you go the
hydroponic route. It's pretty much the choice of last resort.

Again, that depends entirely on whether replicating a carrot requires more, or less, energy than growning one.

No, it depends on what's at a premium--time, space, energy, reliability, whatever. Hydroponics requires space and time. It requires the ship to be replumbed. It requires life support to be drastically revamped. It is much inferior as regards redundancy and reliability. Again, a functioning Starship has nearly inconceivable amounts of energy available. V'ger didn't, which violates canon and common sense.



As far as how it was accomplished, easy.

Remember, the energy problem was considered a long term issue they needed to tackle early, once they got the initial mission problems ironned out. They weren't out of energy, but they did need to stretch it out as much as they could, because they came to realise that they weren't going to get all that much help in the Delta Quadrant.

Because Janeway was an idiot--the Feds were obviously scraping the bottom of the barrel for Starship captains. But I digress.

Star Trek is weak on numbers, but in TOS they managed to siphon enough anti-matter out of the engines to create a bomb to destroy the ecosphere of a planetoid (Tycho 4) in Obsession.

In Star Trek, energy appears to be almost free (maybe they tap the anti-matter from an anti-matter universe)--the problem is the dilithium crystals they use to manipulate it. The dilithium crystals presumably don't create the energy, but using lots of power can damage something about the crystals, making them useless.

So, one question is how much energy does it take to feed the crew as opposed to how much to move the Starship. My guess is that they are orders of magnitude different. Your mileage may vary, of course, but shutting down the replicators completely doesn't seem like it would buy them more than a couple light years.


Replicate the equipment and the seed stock. Replicate food until you have crops ready, then wean the crew off of replication in favor of grown. Continue to replicate to suppliment supplies what you can't grow.

Other shows have established that replicators have limitations, although I haven't watched enough to try to determine what the limitations are. So far as I can tell, they don't make any sense (the Hardart explanation seems the one that covers the most bases--the replicator is a giant vending machine, and you can only get out one end what you had put in at the other).

daver
2004-Feb-18, 06:46 PM
If you don't have replicators and your mission lasts for years, you go the hydroponic route. It's pretty much the choice of last resort.

But that's the situation they found themselves in. They didn't have (unlimited) replicators, and their mission was (now) going to last for years. So why do you have a problem with them going the hydroponic route?
The ship doesn't have the plumbing, the lighting, the fertilizers, or the food stocks for hydroponics. I don't think it has the space, either, but that's somewhat debatable. There is a long lead time from planting the seed to getting something edible out. If the replicators are out, they're going to have a great deal of difficulty in getting any of the raw materials.

The replicators weren't out. They worked just fine. The problem was that they didn't know if and where they could re"fuel".

Really? My recollection of that episode was that the replicators were down. I have no intention of watching it again to see if that was the case or not.

It's interesting that replicators need refuelling. That has interesting implications for life support (particularly waste recycling).


If hydroponics would save energy in the long run, in exchange for an expenditure now (getting the equipment and raw materials together), it would have been worth the attempt. Which of course, considering they expected to be "at sea" 80 years or so, the investment was sure to pay off all around.
Janeway's an idi.... Oh, I've already said that. So the engines and key systems (including life support) will last 80+ years but the replicators won't? Replicators obviously can't replicate replicators, or the components of replicators that are likely to wear out.

Glom
2004-Feb-18, 07:07 PM
Voyager was launched with a crew of 141 but after the 'Caretaker' incident had a crew of 152. Three years later, they had 149, even though they'd lost a lot more than three crew members, but that's continuity so we're obviously not supposed to think about that.

The problem I've had with Trek of late (one of the many problems) is Berman & Braga's Principle of Free Energy. Throughout Voyager, we saw the completely gratuitous use of valuable resources, including the construction of a mecha-shuttle, the total repair of major damage with a new coat of polish, without Torres even batting an eye. On a few token episodes focused on the ships problem with being stranded. Replicator rations were forgotten by the third season. The entire series could have been made cooler had it run its course with continuity of damage and consumption such that it ends with its crew nearly starving and the ship held together with selotape. Have we learned nothing from The Return of the King?

The trend continues with Enterprise. While the ship is stranded in deep space beyond its ever intended range, it is out on a mission for an apparently unspecified duration (that's another problem!) without support. The real pioneers, that the crew of Enterprise are supposed to embody, hads to contend with carrying out their mission with limited resources. Okay, so they shouldn't have to starve the crew to survive like the case should have been on Voyager, but the complete indifference to the use of torpedoes, the launching of shuttlepods, and the construction of duritanium braces just shows how the Enterprise mission is more of a road trip than a pioneering mission of exploration.

Humphrey
2004-Feb-18, 07:38 PM
If i remeber right and that Glom hinted at it, iun the trip to the delta quadrant alot of the crew weas not killed. They had launched with a very minimal crew. If i remeber right they were reacting to some incident and could not wait for the rest of the crew to arrive.

What i liked origonally about Voyager was that they mentioned several times that Photon torpedoes were very scarce. They were very unwilling to use them. But near the end it seemed that they could care less and would use one to light a freaking candle in the galley if they wanted to. Small little thing, but it anoyed me. And i will say that i actually liked Voyager for most of its run.

Enterprise just could care less aboput saving anything. They do not have replicators so how they are able to rebuild shuttles and the ship hull is way beyond me. Plus do not get me going on how the ship would be anomoly paste after only one of those freaking waves passed throught it. I mean you see the hull buckle several feet when a wave pass throught and all that happens is sparks. Arrggg....

captain swoop
2004-Feb-19, 10:35 AM
I don't see how energy could be a problem for the replicators. How much energy would a replicator use compared to a transporter or Phaser?

Holodecks must draw their energy from the main generator, why not turn them off?

DataCable
2004-Feb-19, 11:02 AM
Holodecks must draw their energy from the main generator, why not turn them off?
This was dealt with in one of the first few episodes... supposedly. It was brought up that the holodeck power source "wasn't compatible" with the other systems (which was a rather obvious excuse to continue using them). However, later on in the series, (I think in one of those horrid "Fair Haven" episodes) during one of those flickering-lights/exploding-console crises, an order was given to divert power from the holodecks.

Maybe there was some throw-away piece of dialoge sometime in between explaining that the early holodeck power incompatibility issue had been resolved, but I don't recall. (Though I didn't thoroughly study Voy as much as the previous few series, as I found it rapidly lead to severe headaches. #-o)

tracer
2004-Feb-20, 05:58 AM
Voyager was launched with a crew of 141 but after the 'Caretaker' incident had a crew of 152. Three years later, they had 149, even though they'd lost a lot more than three crew members, but that's continuity so we're obviously not supposed to think about that.
Their lost crew members were replaced using the same technology that they used to replace all their wrecked shuttlecraft. ;)

captain swoop
2004-Feb-20, 09:36 AM
Voyager was launched with a crew of 141 but after the 'Caretaker' incident had a crew of 152. Three years later, they had 149, even though they'd lost a lot more than three crew members, but that's continuity so we're obviously not supposed to think about that.
Their lost crew members were replaced using the same technology that they used to replace all their wrecked shuttlecraft. ;)

That'swhy they had to ration the replicators, Imagine how long it would take to replicate all the parts in a Shuttle., not to mention all the other stuff that was destroyed every week.

If I had that repliactor technology I would build it in all over the ship so it could self repair.

Hang on, that's already been done. Liberator could self repair and that was over 20 years ago. Good old Blakes 7 =D>

R.A.F.
2004-Feb-20, 04:05 PM
I've just viewed the "Doctor alone on the ship" episode of Enterprise and I'm thinking...

[rant mode]...

what in the heck was that!!?? Guess the strain of making the show was too much for the series "regulars", so it was time to "draw straws" to see who'd get stuck in this mess.

At the beginning of the show, Archer tells Flox that he's "in charge" of the ship. Yet when T'Pol appears he's not surprised! Well, I was!! Then comes the non-surprise ending. What a piece of...??$@&&*$!!!

[/Rant Mode]...

Now, what I did like about the show...

When Flox askes T'Pol to do something with the Warp Engines, and she looks up in the air with a "I don't know" type of expression...that was funny! :)

But that's it!! That's all I can say good about the show.

If the rest of the season's scripts are as bad as this one...well, I just hope that they can "Save Earth" before the show is cancelled!!

ToSeek
2004-Feb-20, 04:12 PM
I've just viewed the "Doctor alone on the ship" episode of Enterprise and I'm thinking...

[rant mode]...

what in the heck was that!!?? Guess the strain of making the show was too much for the series "regulars", so it was time to "draw straws" to see who'd get stuck in this mess.



Not to mention that the same story idea was used on Voyager, and the writer of that episode was given no credit for this one.

frenat
2004-Feb-20, 05:28 PM
What I couldn't help thinking for the entire episode was how they are comatose for 4 days but they don't have catheters, IVs, food tubes. Nothing to continusly monitor their vitals. What if one of them codes for some previously undetectable reason? The doctor won't know until the next time he makes his rounds. But 4 days without any food or even any IV fluids? No catheters means no clean way to rid their bodies of urine. Did they all not drink anything for 8 hours before they were put under? Even then how many of them wet the bed? Maybe the ship should be the USS Rubber Sheet.

R.A.F.
2004-Feb-20, 05:46 PM
frenat...why o why did you have to post that? I hadn't thought about any of the things until you mentioned them, but of course your absolutely right!!

I don't mind 1 character episodes as long as they tell a good story...this one did not!! WHY would they even air such a BAD episode?? Are they trying to get the show cancelled? I've seen lame "fan fiction" that's 10 times better than this "stuff".

Stuart
2004-Feb-20, 07:56 PM
Are they trying to get the show cancelled? I've seen lame "fan fiction" that's 10 times better than this "stuff".

I can't say anything about this particular episode since I don't watch Enterprise anymore. However, I suspect they are not "trying" to get the show cancelled - I suspect the show has been cancelled and they're just going through the motions. It may or may not be true and if it is true it may not be connected but there are rumors than UPN has bought "Firefly" and the reason for the delay on the film is to rewrite the script so that it is a bridge between the old Fox and new UPN series.

frenat
2004-Feb-20, 08:32 PM
4 days without food is conceivable. They would be weak, uncomfortable but otherwise fine. 4 days without water though would leave them all severely dehydrated and possibly dead. Maybe it is a plot for Phlox to take over Enterprise?

As for whether or not the show is being canceled. Next week's (Feb 21-27) TV Guide has this to say in the Roush Review
http://www.tvguide.com/tv/roush/review/


Spaced Out
Is it time to give the Enterprise crew, and us, a rest?


Let's face it. Does it even matter that Star Trek: Enterprise is having the most exciting year for a Trek series since Deep Space Nine signed off in 1999? Truth is, most people would think that's damning with faint praise.

They'd be right.

After nearly 600 episodes since the franchise returned to TV in 1987 with The Next Generation, it's only fair to admit we're suffering from battle fatigue-or Trek-haustion.

It's not entirely this show's fault. Enterprise is now well into a season-long mission to save Earth from a powerful enemy, the Xindi, while crossing a treacherous expanse of space. Unlike the first two seasons, Enterprise has a sense of purpose these days, a renewed urgency.

The current run of new sweeps episodes ends on a suspenseful note March 3, as the ship is crippled in a Xindi attack while a captured Archer (Scott Bakula) frantically tries to negotiate.

Still, it seems too little, too late. Even when the scenarios pull out the stops, as in the recent sexual encounter of Vulcan hottie T'Pol (Jolene Blalock) and southern-fried officer Trip (Connor Trinneer), they tend to have a recycled feel. It would help if the rest of the cast weren't the same usual bunch of gung-ho ciphers.

UPN hasn't yet renewed Enterprise for next season, and it's looking iffy. (One trouble sign: UPN is moving the show to 9 pm/ET in March with The Mullets as lead-in.) To be honest, a mercy killing might be just the ticket. Extinction now could preserve Trek's freshness for later.

But not without resolving the current story. If this season ends on a cliff-hanger, without a season to follow, UPN owes it to its fans to wrap things up and give us hope for Trek's future.

I don't know. Leading in with "The Mullets"? Looks like they are trying to cancel it to me.

Aodoi
2004-Feb-20, 08:43 PM
spoilers for the Doc ep :)




I just watched it, and actually rather liked it. Wasn't great, but it was a serviceable character development episode. I figured the twist out with the reference to Denobulin's seeing hallucinating as positive, but the way it ended was nice. Seemed like Phlox sort of knew what was going on too from the way he reacted at the end. The whole T'pol not touching anything bit got to be a bit heavy handed, but at least I didn't feel they were bashing you over the head with it.

And really, how could you not love the "I'm a physician not an engineer" line? That one I know was a reference to TOS :D

It had Porthos! Porthos has had more speaking lines this season than Mayweather or Hoshi! If only Porthos, Hoshi, Mayweather, and Phlox were the main characters this show would rock! ;)

And hey, no lame "Neuropressure of the week" subplot! And while Phlox naked isn't quite what I wanted to see, it was amusing in an Austin Powers sort of way. The Hoshi shower scene was a bit of an evil tease, though.

I'm kind of amused that they miscalculated the growth of the area by what, a factor of 20? 4 days +- 10 weeks? [Eddie Izzard]So well done there.[/EI]

The rest of the goofiness I just attribute to the delusions, so I'll forgive them. 4 days on a bed would get messy, but since no one in Trek has to use a bathroom I guess it's ok. Maybe they developed a hypospray to stop bodily functions. :D

frenat
2004-Feb-20, 09:25 PM
That reminds me of another point. They say it has expanded a quarter of a light year and at full impulse it would take 10 weeks to get through. Isn't full impulse still less than light speed? At light speed it would take 13 weeks to go a quarter of a light year but that doesn't even account for how much more it would expand in that time. Sloppy calculations.

Humphrey
2004-Feb-20, 09:54 PM
[

Not to mention that the same story idea was used on Voyager, and the writer of that episode was given no credit for this one.

Very much of a ripoff. Just goes to show that the current writers and directors have absolutely no imagination left.

I think it would be very, very good for the entirety of next season has fan written episodes. Theier is a HUGE resoucre out there that is available. And they do not evewn have to pay for the scripts. Must fans will give it for free to see it get on screen.

johnwitts
2004-Feb-21, 12:34 AM
I especially liked the watering can placement in the naked Phlox scene, but I just have a dirty mind. I din't see the twist coming, because I'd wondered why T'Pol wouldn't be immune anyway. Her not touching anything at all only became obvious to me on the second viewing. Then again, I like to let my TV watching wash over me without much thought going into it. But that's just me. I still like Enterprise, partly because it's a bit crap. I think it's supposed to be, cos it's their first mission.

ottawan
2004-Feb-21, 01:18 AM
I actually enjoyed the episode due to the "character development" angle for Phlox, the McCoy reference, the Austin Powers reference(without the music, sadly) and the fact that Portos was a main character!

Bad science has been a staple of the Star Trek universe since it's creation, and I have grown to accept it all the same.

Bad writing, however, brings to mind the early turkeys from TOS, such as "Spectre of the Gun", "Spock's Brain" and the unforgetable "Plato's Stepchildren"!

I am looking forward to the upcoming episodes to be aired during a "sweeps" period that will bring the "Xindi" episode to a close.

I DO give the producers credit for devoting an entire season to a single concept as that has never been tried in ST before. But as others have posted before, I wish they had found better writers.

All things aside, T'Pol's butt double in "Harbinger" was a treat!

Sorry for that last bit.

Ottawan.

Humphrey
2004-Feb-21, 02:34 AM
I actually enjoyed the episode due to the "character development" angle for Phlox, the McCoy reference, the Austin Powers reference(without the music, sadly) and the fact that Portos was a main character!

Bad science has been a staple of the Star Trek universe since it's creation, and I have grown to accept it all the same.

Bad writing, however, brings to mind the early turkeys from TOS, such as "Spectre of the Gun", "Spock's Brain" and the unforgetable "Plato's Stepchildren"!

I am looking forward to the upcoming episodes to be aired during a "sweeps" period that will bring the "Xindi" episode to a close.

I DO give the producers credit for devoting an entire season to a single concept as that has never been tried in ST before. But as others have posted before, I wish they had found better writers.

All things aside, T'Pol's butt double in "Harbinger" was a treat!

Sorry for that last bit.

Ottawan.



Alas my friend you are forgetting DS9's Dominion war. :-)

ottawan
2004-Feb-21, 02:42 AM
Sir Humphrey!

I apologize.

I had blocked the "Dominion Wars" from my memory.

Thank you for bringing that reality back to me #-o

frenat
2004-Feb-21, 02:52 AM
I liked the Dominion wars. It finally seemed to give that show some purpose.

Humphrey
2004-Feb-21, 03:03 AM
Sir Humphrey!

I apologize.

I had blocked the "Dominion Wars" from my memory.

Thank you for bringing that reality back to me #-o

heh. no problem. :-)

I actually stopped watching DS9 when it got very religious. But the Dominion war brouight me back every once in a while.
Jiust be glad i did not mention Voyagers off and on relationship with the borg.
.
.
.
.
.
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oops :-P


[spelling]

ottawan
2004-Feb-21, 03:05 AM
frenat!

I did not mean to disparage "Deep Space 9". It was merely not one of my favourites!

Just my opinion, of course.

Ottawan.

ottawan
2004-Feb-21, 03:11 AM
And back to you Humphrey!

I never agreed with the Borg bit either!

The "religious" part of DS9 was a little hard to take for me as well.

But it is "fiction" after all and we must follow where the "writers" lead. :cry:

Humphrey
2004-Feb-21, 04:17 AM
See i love the borg, and i think they are really cool. but that series pacified them so much they were about as effective as lemmings running a maration over the grand canyon.


added: now to go on a better note. Lets talk about what we loved about the series.
Just some examples:
In voyager i loved early on in the series the trechery plotlines. It showed that the crews were not some unified, immediately coheseive group. They showed that some of the hatred between thre groups still remianed. I liked that.
DS9: i enjoyed the dominion war, stated above.
TNG: The picard becoming borg and ata finding emotions plotlines. Usually well written.
TOS: never liked the series, so i havent watched much of it.
Enterprise: Well...umm...well. i will think of something. Give me a few hours. It does have some cool Graphics!


So anyone else want to put in?

R.A.F.
2004-Feb-21, 05:06 AM
Contrast and compare...

I just watched Stargate SG1...

That ending I didn't see coming!

A little sappy, but GREAT writing compared to Enterprise.

Zamboni
2004-Feb-21, 10:19 AM
added: now to go on a better note. Lets talk about what we loved about the series.
Just some examples:
In voyager i loved early on in the series the trechery plotlines. It showed that the crews were not some unified, immediately coheseive group. They showed that some of the hatred between thre groups still remianed. I liked that.
DS9: i enjoyed the dominion war, stated above.
TNG: The picard becoming borg and ata finding emotions plotlines. Usually well written.
TOS: never liked the series, so i havent watched much of it.
Enterprise: Well...umm...well. i will think of something. Give me a few hours. It does have some cool Graphics!


So anyone else want to put in?

TOS: Hmm... I wan't born in the 60's (or was it 70's?) So never saw much of it (except the movies, and the episode involving those furry things)

TNG: Well I've forgotten much of the early episodes, probably due to the fact that I didn't speak English back then (imagine the conversation I can carry with Trek English... "Greetings friend, live long and prosper... Set course for Burger King... Divert all power to the radio!") :lol:

DS9: Only picked this up near season two or three... Then watch the whole thing on reruns... I like the character played by Andrew Robinson (ie. Garrack?)

Voyager: Ugh... The Kazon stuff is just *bleep*... Only the borg stuff were sort of interesting, but only at the beginning (ie. species 8472???), the later episodes were also *bleep* (can you say "unimatrix zero"?)

Enterprise: I miss this more often than I miss my lectures... Why can't they just hit an asteroid and die?

Glom
2004-Feb-21, 11:49 AM
The Original Series
:) Very camp. That's the way scifi should be.
:) Colourful styrafoam sets. That's the way scifi should be.
:) A certain kind of William Shatner ham that makes it a masterpiece.
:) Despite being the origin for the redshirt cliche, they actually cared when their redshirts died.
:) 'Balance of Terror'
:) 'The Return of the Archons'
:) 'A Taste of Armageddon'
:) 'This Side of Paradise'
:) 'The Devil in the Dark'
:) 'A Private Little War'
:) Tribbles!
:) A greater feel of a military crew.
:) Focus of character. It was the Kirk show.
:( The infamous Kirk "This is the most dangerous planet in the galaxy, so let's beam down the entire senior staff" syndrome.
:( 'The Omega Glory'
:( 'Assignment: Earth'
:( 'The Way to Eden'

The Next Generation
:) Cool ship.
:) Patrick Stewart.
:) 'The Best of Both Worlds'
:) 'All Good Things'
:) Brent Spiner.
:) 'All Good Things'
:) Lwaxana Troi.
:) 'All Good Things'
:) Q
:) The Borg when they were scary.
:) A bit camp in the first two seasons.
:( Too much "going where someone else has already been before and we're just on a followup mission".
:( Sterile atmosphere in the later seasons.

Deep Space Nine
:) The Defiant 8)
:) Running story, including the much ignored Bajoran political turmoil following the Cardassian withdrawal of the first two seasons.
:) The Defiant 8)
:) The Jem'Hadar.
:) Jeffrey Combs.
:) The Ferengi.
:) The concept of a neo-libertarian galaxy.
:) The Defiant 8)
:) The alternate universe.
:) The Intendant.
:) Garak.
:) The Defiant 8)
:) Focus of character relationship (O'Brien-Bashir, Odo-Quark)
:) 'Duet'
:) 'Call to Arms'
:) 'The Ship'
:) 'The Ascent'
:) 'In the Pale Moonlight'
:) 'The Seige of AR-558' for all its faults
:( The writers gave up on writing a proper ending.
:( One track races.
:( How many tasks does the Sisko have?
:( Jake spent half the time missing and the other half loitering.

Voyager
:) Good opening.
:) Promising plot.
:) Lots of conflict.
:) Jeri Ryan.
:) 'The Thaw'
:) 'Scorpion'
:) 'One'
:) 'The Blink of an Eye'
:) 'The Haunting of Deck 12'
:( Berman & Braga's Principle of Free Energy
:( Holodeck malfunctions are old!
:( Too many spatial anomalies as a substitute for creativity to write about cool places.
:( The furry and cuddly Borg.
:( Enough with the transporter malfunctions.
:( Someone tell Brannon Braga to leave the timeline alone!
:( 'Fair Haven'
:( 'Sacred Ground'
:( 'Virtuoso'
:( Complete and utter waste of the premise.

Enterprise
:) Promising premise.
:) Good opening.
:( Idiot captain. When Shatner hammed it up, it was cool. When Bakula hams it up, it's annoying.
:( The mission is a publicity stunt.
:( Brannon Braga.
:( The correct term is "landing party" or "boarding party" for that era.
:( Ferengi and Borg abomination of cannon. Just because Trek continuity is crap, no need to be so blatant about it.
:( Archer thinks his mission is an adolescent road trip.
:( 'Vanishing Point'
:( 'Precious Cargo'
:( 'Shockwave'
:( 'Bounty'
:( Berman & Braga's Principle of Free Energy.
:( Patronising titles like 'Strange New World', 'Civilisation' and 'Rogue Planet' meant to give the impression the series is fulfilling its promise of exploration when these titles have almost no applicability to the episodes.

milli360
2004-Feb-21, 11:58 AM
Hmm... I wan't born in the 60's (or was it 70's?)
You probably weren't born in either decade, but TOS was big in the sixties. For some people.

Glom
2004-Feb-21, 03:28 PM
You probably weren't born in either decade, but TOS was big in the sixties. For some people.

It was very cult. It was a bit like Fawlty Towers. It had a small audience in its initial run but on the repeats it picked up.

milli360
2004-Feb-21, 05:50 PM
It was very cult. It was a bit like Fawlty Towers. It had a small audience in its initial run but on the repeats it picked up.
I think it had a larger audience than that. Plus it won a couple Hugos, and was nominated for the Best Dramatic Series Emmy a couple times.

johnwitts
2004-Feb-21, 06:43 PM
Glom Wrote:


The correct term is "landing party" or "boarding party" for that era.


No Glom, that came later. That's what they used on NCC1701. Archer's people came first. They can call it what they like.

I think most of the planet has missed the point of Enterprise. Am I the only one who gets it?

Glom
2004-Feb-21, 06:46 PM
The point of the series is to show how people who wrote sequels, but never bothered to watch the original, shouldn't write prequels, because it will make the original look like a hole in the history of the franchise.

Humphrey
2004-Feb-21, 06:55 PM
Heh. Great start guys. lets keep it up. :-)

And John, It is ok to be delusional. Do not worry we do not think less of you. :-P

SpacedOut
2004-Feb-22, 03:38 PM
I think most of the planet has missed the point of Enterprise. Am I the only one who gets it?

There's a point to it??? :o

Sparks
2004-Feb-22, 04:11 PM
I think most of the planet has missed the point of Enterprise. Am I the only one who gets it?
There's a point to it??? :o
Just the two in front of T'pal, apparently....
*mutters to self about the annoying requirement of US TV producers to put sex in every show these days*
[i]"Hi, and welcome to Ready, Steady, Cook! Now with extra Red Hot Lesbians!"{/i] #-o

johnwitts
2004-Feb-22, 06:50 PM
I think most of the planet has missed the point of Enterprise. Am I the only one who gets it?
There's a point to it??? :o
Just the two in front of T'pal, apparently....
*mutters to self about the annoying requirement of US TV producers to put sex in every show these days*
[i]"Hi, and welcome to Ready, Steady, Cook! Now with extra Red Hot Lesbians!"{/i] #-o

Well, I'm still a fan of Enterprise. How will all you guys feel if, because of your critisism, the show is cancelled? Just think how upset I'll be with you all? Just think that I'll be left with only episodes of Ready, Steady, Cook to watch? Be nice to Enterprise for me please? Don't let them take it away from me!!! :-({|=

SpacedOut
2004-Feb-22, 07:37 PM
John-

Don't get me wrong, I watch Enterprise too and would be sorry to see it canceled.

I just don't see any connection to the Roddenberry universe anymore. Also, there is a total disconnect between the first two seasons and this one - except the cast and the sets.

Humphrey
2004-Feb-22, 07:46 PM
I just wish they would let more than the 5 main characters have more than 2 minutes of screen time. I am tired of only seeing Archer, Reed, Trip, the doctor, and T'pol. I want to see the rest of the freaking crew and the other "main" characters have some lines. It feels like the rest of the ship could be killed and massacred and we would not know the difference except the usualy "walking down a long hallway" shot will be empty.

That is one thingt i loved about TNG, there were more than the usual crew and the showed it.

SpacedOut
2004-Feb-22, 07:51 PM
You've got a point Humphrey. It would be nice to see some new blood injected into the mix.

Funny thing though, I'd have to say the opposite for SG1. It would be nice if RDA would show up a little more. :evil:

Glom
2004-Feb-22, 07:58 PM
Funny thing though, I'd have to say the opposite for SG1. It would be nice if RDA would show up a little more. :evil:

Yeah. I can't believe how gratuitously he skived off last week's episode. At least when he was completely missing from 'Nightwalkers', there was a good reason and it was preluding 'Abyss', one of the finest episodes of all. Bring on Michael Welch.

Humphrey
2004-Feb-22, 08:26 PM
Funny thing though, I'd have to say the opposite for SG1. It would be nice if RDA would show up a little more. :evil:

I agree on that. Also They do show that running the base and organization takes hundreds of people. And of course they do give some olf the other SG teams and command members lines. Take Heroes part one and two. One reason why the episode was so fantasatic was the guest characters and their lines. Plus Sg1 actually remebers what happened in previous episodes beyond the usual clip episode.


Truthfully i do hope they cancel Enterprise this season. The3n when (and i hope they do) make a new series they will start on a moderate note, not a poor one if they ran this one into the ground. Cancel now and you can save the franchise, keep it going and we will never see another series again.

Moose
2004-Feb-23, 12:59 PM
Truthfully i do hope they cancel Enterprise this season. The3n when (and i hope they do) make a new series they will start on a moderate note, not a poor one if they ran this one into the ground. Cancel now and you can save the franchise, keep it going and we will never see another series again.

Big gamble, Humphrey. My read is that if they cancel Enterprise, we won't see another for a bloody long time, if at all.

And it really isn't as bad as you're making it out to be. Complain about the things that aren't working and they may well be fixed, but the vitriol you and a few others are spreading is excessive and quite frankly unfair.

Glom
2004-Feb-23, 02:21 PM
I think the franchise should be given a rest for a while. We've been Trekked to death over the past seventeen years. And apart from DS9, it's all been the same thing just with the occassional change of crew and ship to make it look like it's fresh. But at the end of the day, the style is the same and the mistakes are the same.

ToSeek
2004-Feb-23, 03:48 PM
I was at a panel on "Saving Star Trek" last weekend, and there were two schools of thought:

1. Give it a rest for 5-10 years. (Keep in mind that there was no Trek other than a Saturday morning cartoon from 1969 to 1979.) The production staff is burned out and has no creative. Too, when it comes back, it will be a big deal, instead of the lame firecracker that Enterprise was.

2. Bring in some new blood on the writing/production side and start taking some chances. Get edgy, be dangerous, take risks - if you're going to go out, at least go with a bang.

Since I don't think (2) is going to happen, (1) might be the better bet.

Swift
2004-Feb-23, 04:13 PM
The Original Series
:) Very camp. That's the way scifi should be.
:) Colourful styrafoam sets. That's the way scifi should be.
etc.......

Excellent summary. Don't agree with absolutely every bullet, but overall right on the mark. =D>

Swift
2004-Feb-23, 04:20 PM
I agree, give it a rest. I watched Enterprise the first season, but pretty much have given up, its more annoying than entertaining. Its time to do an Old Yeller and put it down (hate to have the old girl suffer like this). Its an act of mercy.

I'll watch reruns of ST:NG on Spike TV.

constible
2004-Feb-23, 04:36 PM
I actually find it quite funny that Spike runs TNG at the same time Enterprise is on UPN. Talk about a slap.

Moose
2004-Feb-23, 05:04 PM
I actually find it quite funny that Spike runs TNG at the same time Enterprise is on UPN. Talk about a slap.

Spike TV runs something other than TNG?

Demigrog
2004-Feb-23, 06:44 PM
Enterprise is a prequel? Yuck! The bad acting apparently kept me from watching enough to notice.

What Trek needs is to hire the good writers that did the early novels, and to have an arc developed ahead of time, a la B5. IMHO they should also drop all DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise stories and most of NextGen from the series “canon” and stick to what the early novel authors developed. Best of the novels:

-A. C. Crispin: Yesterday’s Son, Time for Yesterday. Enough said.

-Diane Duane: The Wounded Sky (best Trek novel ever, IMO), Doctor’s Orders, Spock’s World, and the Romulan series that makes the next gen Romulans look like cardboard cutouts: My Enemy my Ally, The Romulan Way, Swordhunt, Honor Blade

-D. C. Fontana. Hopefully needs no introduction for Trek fans…

The early novels had already developed a pre-history for Trek that had fair continuity and excellent writing. It really ticked me off enough what the Next Gen writers did to the Romulans when D.C. Fontana and Diane Duane had already created such a dynamic and interesting race. I got equally annoyed when First Contact came out and ignored Strangers from the Sky.

Anyway, my rant quota for the day is now exceeded. Now I have to avoid a similar rant on George Lucas ignoring the excellent Star Wars novels (particularly A.C. Crispin’s) and screwing up the Clone Wars, Boba Fett, and the Star Wars pre-history…

Thank goodness for B5.

johnwitts
2004-Feb-24, 01:07 AM
The better is the enemy of the good.

Glom
2004-Feb-24, 01:29 AM
I think most people hate it because it's different and unfamiliar. Get over it. It's supposed to be.

Don't insult my intelligence. [-X I was longing for something different. I jumped for joy when they announced the premise of Series V. After fifteen years of the 24th century, I'd just about had enough. Voyager was getting stale towards its end for reasons already outlined and I was beginning to loose affection for the franchise.

But the 22nd century? A great idea in the history of great idea... or so it seemed. An era closer to our own. An era when pioneers roamed the galaxy without the fanciness of phased weapons (as established in 'The Cage' [TOS]) (oh wait, they have those), transporters ('Hollow Pursuits' [TNG]) (oh wait, they have those too) and subspace communications ('The Cage' [TOS]) (oh wait, they have that also #-o ).

I was thinking this may be the chance for the Return to Grace of the franchise. A chance to put behind the mistakes of old and have a new and fresh beginning. When saw the premier, I was impressed. It was good. I was thinking this may be be it. The golden age of Trek may have returned. The opening title sequence was a symbol of this freshness to me (I liked it. So sue me! =; ). It was upbeat and a refreshing change from the drabness of title sequences past. I liked the lack of shields (although I think just a good solid hull would have sufficed. No need for this polarising of the hull plating. A rose by any other name... Neverthless, good on them for trying.), the use of the shuttlepods, the grappler, the decontamination chamber (in principle! Turning it into an orgy parlour was excessive. :evil: ) and the way Archer calls them "starlogs". More primitive technology of a different era. Space seemed a little less domesticated and a bit more exotic. Very good!

These things, I liked. The fact that Enterprise is different from series past is NOT at all what bothers me.

In fact, it's the other way round. It's too similar! There were one or two things about the pilot that niggled me. I could overlook them in the face of a great episode, but while the good things faded into dust, the niggles became more and more prominent as the series went on. The casual planet hopping. The ease with which they cruise through a gas giant. The happy-go-lucky use of resources and materials. Happily inventing new technobabble to get around the problem. Berman & Braga's Principle of Free Energy.

It seemed like Enterprise was making the same mistakes all over again. What ever happened to the fresh start? This was supposed to be about starting a new and putting the twenty fourth century behind us.

At the end of the day, we have a ship hopping from planet to planet of a week and getting up to nuisance there with little scope overall. That's what Classic did. That's what NextGen did. That's what Voyager did. We don't need yet another ship doing it! The more limited technology means little. The different astropolitical situation means little. We don't find ourselves faced with the significance of what was supposed to make this series DIFFERENT. We only get an impression of SAME old, same old.

Add to that the fact that the Enterprise mission seems to have been managed and executed by complete morons who didn't bother putting a second's thought into what they were doing. And no I'm not overlooking the fact that this is the first mission of its kind and Earth is inexperienced at these matters. There's a difference between inexperience and stupidity [-( ! I have outlined these detailed endlessly across this forum. Plus, I see little connection to universe, which the producers mandated the series to setup.

In addition, I find little indication that it is generally the consensus that the unique properties of Enterprise are the damning factors in their interpretation. Humphrey's main complaint is the T&A. Can anyone say Seven of Nine? What about Leeta? Counselor Troi? Or Yoeman Rand? T&A is present throughout the entire franchise and this much does not bother me. But the addition of the orgy chamber may be a step too far in some people's eyes. This isn't different, it's exacerbating the same. Others take a more general complaint about bad writing and acting in my mind. I don't wish to comment on my opinions of the acting and writing, although I'll say that Bakula should stop hamming it up so much or stop being made to ham it up by writing and direction (I've seen Quantum Leap. I know what Bakula is capable of! [-( ). Nevertheless, there is little complaint about the uniqueness of the format of the series. If format was a problem, it's that it's too similar to what was done before.

Consider how Voyager reached into the ratings dump by the end (boosted for a time by the arrival of Seven of Nine because season four had some great character conflict between Seven of Nine and Janeway). There was a boom for the beginning of Enterprise for the promise of something different. But then the ratings collapsed again. In other words, people stopped watching the franchise in Voyager, started again for Enterprise and stopped again. To say that this is because those who were lured back for the promise of something new and different left once they realised those promises were empty would be to affirm the consequent. Nevertheless, it is the reason many of my friends lost interest in the series very quickly after it started its regular run.

Humphrey
2004-Feb-24, 03:21 AM
Actually Glom, while i think the T&A is excessive, my main gripe is the writing and plots. Basically what you have said in you post is how i feel.

If i had one change to the way the show was run it would be at least some character interation. I have said this before, i want to see what goes on beyond the bridge, cafeteria, medical bay, and t'pols quarters. And most of all i want to see some good dialogue in there. We saw some good stuff in the first season with the sharing of love of waterpolo with archer and trip. But that seems to of entirely been forgotten. Heck i don't even know if they are friends anymore. For a small fraction of the show we saw something that showed they had become friends and did interact. It is just that i feel absolutely nuthing for these characters. I really want to. The only one i have a smidgen of thought of is the doctor, and that is becuase he has a real quirk. He talk to himself and his pets, alot. Everyone else, no matter how you change their names and hairstyles, are very generic and steryotypical.

Moose: i love trek and i would hate to see it die. Yes i am critical of this show, but only to try to make it better. If you read most of my posts i try to put something in there that will say how it could of been dpone better. But recently i have realized that I doubt i can save this show. So i do think it should be scuttled for hopes of a future show. Hopefully that future show will be diffferent from the rest. Like how DS9 was from TOS and TNG.

A series based on the Maquis, or based not on humans but another race. Heck maybe even a alternate universe. Or have the show set in Voyager or TNG period and have the ship go into the alternate universe where the Federation is evil (seen in DS9 and TOS). Play out the entire series there where they try to wright wrongs. It would be a blast to see all of our favorite characters being evil, and other what if scenarios.

novaderrik
2004-Mar-01, 10:42 AM
I grew up watching TNG, with only a very minor knowledgs of the original series until later on. i was 13 when it premiered, and always tried to catch the new shows every Saturday.
TNG was kind of screwball the first couple of seasons, but when they got away from the low budget look and somewhat campy acting and started to get into politics and character building, the show got really good. hell, i watch it from time to time on Spike, and it's as good now as it was then. that series set the standard, and it is kind of a hard standard to live up to. TNG is the show responsible for making me curious about space and the stuff out there, as well as giving me the ability and inclination to follow storylines from week to week and from season to season- that cliffhanger with Data's head in SF had me all anxious for 6 months for some reason.
DS9 was good- but it took me a few years to get past the fact that it seemed a lot like Babylon 5 (or did B5 seem like DS9, which one came first?). once the show got syndicated and i got to see the series in order from beginning to end, i actually grew to like that about as much as TNG. i, for one, really got into the religious undertones. it made it seem more realistic to me.
then came Voyager..hmm, i don't know what to say about that show, except to ask just how many times can a ship get destroyed and then thru time travel or just screwed up reality, get restored to like new condition? i never cared about anyone on that ship enough to watch it- in fact, the first clue i got to how it ended was Admiral Janeway at the beginning of the last movie. i damn near yelled at the screen in contempt. and how come there were all those different people on the crew all the time? i would think that being trapped across the galaxy with no friends would make the crew kind of a static deal that should have been down to a less than skeleton crew if judged by the amount of people killed every week. maybe the replicators did work, after all, and they were too busy making new crew members to make silly things like food.

as for Enterprise- i watch it, but not often. i saw the premiere- which was alright- but i knew it would evolve into crap. hell, they got the Klingons all wrong for that era- weren't they supposed to look like in the original series and later changed for reasons Worf didn't want to explain in that time travel episode of DS9? or was that expalined somewhere and i missed it? and i keep waiting for Archer to leap into another body in a mildly comical situation at the end of every episode. i think this series will not last 7 seasons like it is supposed to and all the others except for the original did- altho i don't really think Voyager made a true 7 year run, as it had a mid season debut with the start of UPN in January.

JohnOwens
2004-Mar-01, 11:15 AM
DS9 was good- but it took me a few years to get past the fact that it seemed a lot like Babylon 5 (or did B5 seem like DS9, which one came first?).

The Babylon 5 pilot movie aired on Feb. 22, 1993, and the series ran from 1994-1998. DS9 ran from 1993-1999.
There are some rumours out there that JMS (B5 creator) pitched B5 to the people who would later develop DS9, and that there's a hunch they might have "borrowed liberally" from the idea, but I don't know myself how certain that is, or how accurately I've paraphrased it here.


as for Enterprise- i watch it, but not often. i saw the premiere- which was alright- but i knew it would evolve into crap. hell, they got the Klingons all wrong for that era- weren't they supposed to look like in the original series and later changed for reasons Worf didn't want to explain in that time travel episode of DS9?

"Trials and Tribble-ations", FYI


and i keep waiting for Archer to leap into another body in a mildly comical situation at the end of every episode.

So it's not just me? =D> :lol:

ToSeek
2004-Mar-01, 03:42 PM
I thought the most recent episode of Enterprise got it half-right. It was a lot "edgier" than usual, with the captain making decisions that were questionable to the crew (that shouldn't be a spoiler because that's what they were showing in the previews). All the characters were used, including Meriweather and Hoshi (shame about her being shot and killed by the captain, by the way), but on the other hand there didn't seem to be a whole lot of character development in circumstances that were ideal for that. So it seemed like a good idea that they didn't pursue far enough.

Aodoi
2004-Mar-01, 05:20 PM
All the characters were used, including Meriweather and Hoshi (shame about her being shot and killed by the captain, by the way)I did think that Porthos doing the vorpal bunny bit and cutting off her head was a bit over the top. Nice effects, though.



Actual spoilers:






Reverse imprinting? Not a bad concept, though it managing to work cross species is problematic. But hey, that sort of thing is a given in the ST universe.

Now their anti-matter reserves are at 60%? Didn't they lose 25% earlier in the season? (1 out of 4 cannisters?) I guess that makes sense, but I doubt it will be referenced again. The Maltese Anti-Matter! :D

HAVOC451
2004-Mar-04, 02:07 PM
Is it my imagination or is our cute little vulcan becoming an emotional basket case (for a vulcan)?

Aodoi
2004-Mar-04, 02:39 PM
[annoyed spoilers below]















Gosh, this weeks episode would have been all dramatic and stuff. Except that there's a big flashing neon arrow pointing to the reset button. Time travel sucks.

And yes, T'Pol seems totally non-vulcan, and frankly after the ep a couple weeks ago it seems really weird that she is fixating on the captain.

Would have been a decent ep without the lame time travel plotkiller.

constible
2004-Mar-04, 02:40 PM
Is it my imagination or is our cute little vulcan becoming an emotional basket case (for a vulcan)?

That's really starting to bother me. She's showing more emotions than some humans.

And why do I get the feeling that Daniels is going to save the Enterprise again, making sure it doesn't get into that fight. It's going to be another "hitting the rest button" situations.

Otherwise, it's pretty interesting. I smell a civil war coming on, and Mayweather actually had some lines!!!!! And when that center light structure fell, he got out of the way!!!

SeanF
2004-Mar-04, 02:59 PM
Okay, I missed Hatchery altogether (dang local programming preemption!) and I won't see Azati Prime until this weekend (which, I assume, is the one you're talking about).

That said, don't forget that the substance they've got on board to help protect against the anomalies in the Expanse has an effect on Vulcans' sanity. They (the crew) have obviously been keeping T'Pol away from it as much as possible, but possibly they (the writers) are setting up for it to be subtly affecting her anyway?

Xbalanque
2004-Mar-04, 03:05 PM
That said, don't forget that the substance they've got on board to help protect against the anomalies in the Expanse has an effect on Vulcans' sanity. They (the crew) have obviously been keeping T'Pol away from it as much as possible, but possibly they (the writers) are setting up for it to be subtly affecting her anyway?

That's more credit to the writers than I'm willing to give them at this point, especially after shamelessly ripping off a Voyager episode a couple of weeks ago. I'm still waiting for the really big reset button that will make the entire season's events nonexistent.

HAVOC451
2004-Mar-04, 03:52 PM
Spoiler...
































Spoiler...













I expect the big re-set as well.
The Enterprise is a mess.
Warp engine blowing coolant, nacells belching plasma, impulse out, attitude control lost. dozens of hull breaches, fires everywhere, crewmen sucked into space. Three of the four enemy ships still battering away at them.
They're going to need a year in a space dock.

So I wont be suprised to find that it's just Porthos dreaming again. :P

SpacedOut
2004-Mar-04, 04:10 PM
I agree, the way they ended the last episode they've left Daniels no choice but to fiddle with the time-line, more than he has already - my biggest disappointment is that its been obvious that there will be a "big reset" for months.

When did T'Pol become 2nd in command? Am I crazy or wasn't Tripp 2nd in command during the first season?

HAVOC451
2004-Mar-04, 04:29 PM
Trip lost some standing after meddling with an alien culture. That's how I fuigured it anywho.

Zamboni
2004-Mar-04, 05:26 PM
So I wont be suprised to find that it's just Porthos dreaming again. :P
Maybe it's not a dream... Maybe they *are* killing all the principle crew members as an excuse to end the show. NX gets blown to pieces and Archer imprisoned for the rest of his life; at the end Earth gets blown up and we see Doc from voyager exiting the holodeck...

ToSeek
2004-Mar-04, 06:03 PM
That said, don't forget that the substance they've got on board to help protect against the anomalies in the Expanse has an effect on Vulcans' sanity. They (the crew) have obviously been keeping T'Pol away from it as much as possible, but possibly they (the writers) are setting up for it to be subtly affecting her anyway?

That's more credit to the writers than I'm willing to give them at this point, especially after shamelessly ripping off a Voyager episode a couple of weeks ago. I'm still waiting for the really big reset button that will make the entire season's events nonexistent.

T'Pol wakes up, and Archer's in her shower? ;)

SpacedOut
2004-Mar-04, 06:14 PM
T'Pol wakes up, and Archer's in her shower? ;)

You may not be far off given the lack of originality the show sometimes exhibits.

daver
2004-Mar-04, 06:18 PM
T'Pol wakes up, and Archer's in her shower? ;)
Dean Stockwell shows up and says "Ziggy says you really jumped the shark this time, Sam".

Zamboni
2004-Mar-04, 11:26 PM
T'Pol wakes up, and Archer's in her shower?

Then we see a flash back: Archer looks up and see Galadriel saying: "I know what it is that you saw... For that it is also in my mind..." then gives him the ring of power and Archer sneaks into T'Pol's shower.

JohnOwens
2004-Mar-04, 11:31 PM
T'Pol wakes up, and Archer's in her shower? ;)
Dean Stockwell shows up and says "Ziggy says you really jumped the shark this time, Sam".

So it might have a happy ending after all? (Meaning its being Quantum Leap reality, not Archer being in her shower.)

Humphrey
2004-Mar-05, 12:36 AM
See i actually enjoyed the show. For once in many episodes we finally had a smidgen(read: bare to little. But it was there) on character development (T'pol and her now very obvious "love" for the campain) and the plot was prety good.

The ship got its butt kicked like it should of in the second episode of this xindi romp. The ship is relatively defenseless if you really think about it. Phasers only on the underside and very weak "hull plating". But it does have unlimited torpedos, so thats not a big deal. WE will see what they do with it from now. They lost at least two crewmen when you saw them floating in space. The rest might be able to be saved by the Doctor and his magic hamsters.

The civil war was foreshadowed beforehand but to see it become more of a reality is good.

What i want to know is why did they move the shpere? They never said why and the first ship intrusion never gave any indications that it should need to be moved. Yes they had detected Enterprise, but that was not much before the captain left to take it down. A thing that big must of been able to of been seen moving about, or at least detected moving. (yes i know they said sensors were diabled beyond the sensor net, but they still could see cant they?

So minus the obvious reset button ploy, i liked the episode.

But now they will have to explain how the xindi become such a good part of the federation yet nobody every talks of them or sees them in any of the other series. Screwing up the timeline again.

HAVOC451
2004-Mar-05, 01:25 AM
In spite of it's flaws, I wouldn't miss it. In fact, I make time to watch it twice. 8)

Xbalanque
2004-Mar-05, 04:30 AM
T'Pol wakes up, and Archer's in her shower? ;)
Dean Stockwell shows up and says "Ziggy says you really jumped the shark this time, Sam".

So it might have a happy ending after all? (Meaning its being Quantum Leap reality, not Archer being in her shower.)

That would certainly be an improvement over how Quantum Leap ended...

Zamboni
2004-Mar-05, 04:57 AM
T'Pol wakes up, and Archer's in her shower? ;)
Dean Stockwell shows up and says "Ziggy says you really jumped the shark this time, Sam".

So it might have a happy ending after all? (Meaning its being Quantum Leap reality, not Archer being in her shower.)

That would certainly be an improvement over how Quantum Leap ended...

People actually watch that show!?

Humphrey
2004-Mar-05, 06:55 AM
Hey! I love Quantum leap and i love how it ended!!

Zamboni
2004-Mar-05, 08:22 AM
Whatever... I only saw one episode in which Bakula dressed up as a girl. That was the last episode I saw.

Anywho, I seem to recall that the end of first season also left the crew in a seemingly hopeless situation... And we know how they managed to press on.

Archer will probably find some device (the "time machine") and somehow contact Daniel (or whoever... Picard maybe) then press a red button labelled "reset".

Moose
2004-Mar-05, 11:55 AM
Whatever... I only saw one episode in which Bakula dressed up as a girl. That was the last episode I saw.


That doesn't narrow it down much, you know. *chuckle*

I liked this last episode.

I'm not so certain the reset button is a foregone conclusion. Given B&B's track record of over-use, it's possible, but there is room for them to soldier on regardless. Thing is, they crippled Enterprise. The episode stopped just short of destroying it.

If they do manage to convince at least some of the Xindi factions (the sloths and the humanoids, especially) that the war was based on a lie, they may well agree to repair the Big-E as being in their best interests. Especially considering the 7 million unnecessary civilian deaths involved, it may end up being a moral imperative for some of them.

But I have to say that I'm rather shocked at what Porthos did. I didn't know a beagle puppy could tear someone's throat out that easily. Poor Hoshi...

frenat
2004-Mar-05, 12:18 PM
But I have to say that I'm rather shocked at what Porthos did. I didn't know a beagle puppy could tear someone's throat out that easily. Poor Hoshi...

Yeah buyt you have to give Hoshi some credit too. I never expected that raging killing spree she went on. And how she snapped the neck of that Marine with her bare hands? Wow!!

constible
2004-Mar-05, 02:22 PM
In regards to Vulcans having their emotions affected by the expanse, it was only the presence of trellium-d(sp?). There's no trellium-d on Enterprise, so it shouldn't affect T'pol.

And what made those Hoshi fighting scenes so amazing was the delicate blend of Kung Fu and Judo.

SeanF
2004-Mar-05, 03:36 PM
In regards to Vulcans having their emotions affected by the expanse, it was only the presence of trellium-d(sp?). There's no trellium-d on Enterprise, so it shouldn't affect T'pol.

Yeah, there is. They used it on a shuttlecraft in a recent episode (with a warning to T'Pol along the lines of, "You might want to stay away from the shuttle bay for the next few days"). I don't remember specifically which episode it was, though. :(


And what made those Hoshi fighting scenes so amazing was the delicate blend of Kung Fu and Judo.

Man, I'm really looking forward to seeing this episode this weekend! ;)

frenat
2004-Mar-05, 05:22 PM
And what made those Hoshi fighting scenes so amazing was the delicate blend of Kung Fu and Judo.

I for one was amazed when Hoshi revealed that she was part Vulcan and part insectoid Xindi sent back from the future. Of course I know what you all will say, she doesn't look like a Vulcan or insectoid Xindi. Well have any of you ever seen what you get when you cross those two, have you?

Stuart
2004-Mar-05, 05:38 PM
And what made those Hoshi fighting scenes so amazing was the delicate blend of Kung Fu and Judo.

Actually I thought the scenes of Hoshi and T'Pol wrestling in a tank of mud wre the highpoint of the episode

frenat
2004-Mar-05, 06:10 PM
Mud? I thought it was Jello! Are you sure you watched the same episode?

Stuart
2004-Mar-05, 06:50 PM
Mud? I thought it was Jello!

Isn't the Jello next week?

Glom
2004-Mar-05, 06:56 PM
Stuart, does the third season really contain that much gratuitious sexual content?

johnwitts
2004-Mar-05, 07:01 PM
And what made those Hoshi fighting scenes so amazing was the delicate blend of Kung Fu and Judo.

Actually I thought the scenes of Hoshi and T'Pol wrestling in a tank of mud wre the highpoint of the episode

What have I started... :oops:

Stuart
2004-Mar-05, 07:15 PM
Stuart, does the third season really contain that much gratuitious sexual content?

It wasn't so much the gratuitous sexual content that I disliked as there was a growing nastiness underlying it. I began to get the feel that the point of each successive episode was "how do we publically humiliate Jolene Blalock this week?" She may not be the greatest actress in the world but I've seen her perform in CSI and SG1 and she's at least average. It got to the nadir represented by the sex-slave episode and I flipped Enterprise off and have never watched it again. There's a double re-run of "The Nanny" on Channel 29 instead.

Stuart
2004-Mar-05, 07:16 PM
What have I started.

Funny, that's what Captain Archer said while watching them,

Aodoi
2004-Mar-05, 08:24 PM
And what made those Hoshi fighting scenes so amazing was the delicate blend of Kung Fu and Judo.

Actually I thought the scenes of Hoshi and T'Pol wrestling in a tank of mud wre the highpoint of the episodeAnd at least now we know what they do in their free time.

btw, there was like a 1 second shot of a blond on the bridge. Anybody seen her before? It's a crew of what, <100, right? You'd think they'd stop having new faces after a while...

oh, and why use a torpedo against the little station-thingy? Even given the weirdly unlimited supply it just seems unnecessary.

Zamboni
2004-Mar-05, 11:56 PM
Didn't they introduced a blode crew member a while back, the one that likes the doctor?

As for torpedos, I'm not sure. I'm still shocked by the fact that they didn't even need to line up the torpedo tube before shooting... Maybe someone just lugged a grenade out the airlock.

James1978
2004-Mar-06, 12:25 AM
Thing is, they crippled Enterprise. The episode stopped just short of destroying it.

This raises its own questions. Like how in the heck did Enterprise stand up that well to that kind of a pounding when ships in TNG era were routinely knocked out of action or even destroyed after a few phaser bursts or a single torpedo, and that's with shields?

ZaphodBeeblebrox
2004-Mar-06, 12:58 AM
Didn't they introduced a blode crew member a while back, the one that likes the doctor?

As for torpedos, I'm not sure. I'm still shocked by the fact that they didn't even need to line up the torpedo tube before shooting... Maybe someone just lugged a grenade out the airlock.

Yeah, Crewman Cutler.

Unfortunately, the Actress who played her, died a little while ago.

Zamboni
2004-Mar-06, 08:01 PM
Didn't they introduced a blode crew member a while back, the one that likes the doctor?

As for torpedos, I'm not sure. I'm still shocked by the fact that they didn't even need to line up the torpedo tube before shooting... Maybe someone just lugged a grenade out the airlock.

Yeah, Crewman Cutler.

Unfortunately, the Actress who played her, died a little while ago.

I see... "Cutler" indeed. Guess now they can remove her officially from the show. Hmm... That brings up a thought, maybe most of the cast wanted to leave the show (due to bad ratings and whatever) so they decided to destroy NX-01 along with the entire crew (yippi...)

In the end only Porthos survives and he (or she) manages to find his way home... Like that dog call uh... Bingo.

Moose
2004-Mar-07, 04:18 PM
Thing is, they crippled Enterprise. The episode stopped just short of destroying it.

This raises its own questions. Like how in the heck did Enterprise stand up that well to that kind of a pounding when ships in TNG era were routinely knocked out of action or even destroyed after a few phaser bursts or a single torpedo, and that's with shields?

May I recommend the following thought exercise? Contrast and compare:

1) A modern frigate can be disabled or even sunk by as little as a single Exocet (or Silkworm) ASM.

2) An 1800's oak frigate could be shot at all day and have a fair chance of not being sunk (although you'd have a fair chance of capture.)

I submit there is no difference between this example... and any other apples-to-apples comparison in warfare, at any era in history, as well as will be largely true in the future.

Why was plate armor largely abandonned after the popularization of the crossbow and eventually the musket?

The answer is simple: as time goes on, armor (and other defense systems) tends to progress at a slower rate than does munitions and other offensive systems. As well, significant leaps in technology of one can render "recent" technologies of the other ineffective.

In Enterprise era, hull plating was an effective defense to the relatively weak munitions developped by the local inhabitants.

Sometime between the Enterprise era and TOS era, hull plating was no longer able to keep up with advances in phaser technology, and ray shielding became necessary as a defense.

By TNG era (and especially by DS9 and Voyager's time, no thanks to the necessity of defending against the Borg and the Dominion), advances in munitions in general are beginning to render shields and hull armor obsolete.

Near end of Voyager's run, Future-Janeway showed that defensive technology has again advanced, rendering Voyager-Janeway-era munitions largely ineffective.

But that effective defensive technology would probably be significantly vulnerable to offensive systems of that era.

But in the end, munitions will always tend to win out against armor.