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cosmocrazy
2009-Sep-22, 08:09 PM
While i was watching Star Trek one evening i was wondering to myself about human nature. In the program Captain Piccard was explaining to a person from a less advanced race about how money, poverty and greed had been eradicated from modern Earth culture.

Is this truly possible? Can humans ever become advanced/civilised enough to eradicate greed?

Obviously i'm not looking to involve or encourage any politics and such like in this subject, but rather a discussion on how our human nature evolves!

korjik
2009-Sep-22, 08:20 PM
You are making the assumption that greed is a bad thing.

Like most things, it can be perverted, but the greed to want more, coupled with the drive to work for it and the ability to sucseed can build quite alot.

@b$+r@c+
2009-Sep-22, 08:23 PM
Maybe once we reach 46+2...


...Are we there yet? Maybe some of us.

Fazor
2009-Sep-22, 08:25 PM
I agree with Korjik, in that "greed" isn't necessarily a bad thing. Do we really want a world where we're all just happy with our particular situation, with no desire for more?

Greed can get ugly. But there's a lot more in that equation than just the greed itself.

cosmocrazy
2009-Sep-22, 08:26 PM
You are making the assumption that greed is a bad thing.

Like most things, it can be perverted, but the greed to want more, coupled with the drive to work for it and the ability to succeed can build quite alot.

Yes but i'm talking about selfish greed at the cost of others in this particular case.

cosmocrazy
2009-Sep-22, 08:29 PM
I agree with Korjik, in that "greed" isn't necessarily a bad thing. Do we really want a world where we're all just happy with our particular situation, with no desire for more?

Greed can get ugly. But there's a lot more in that equation than just the greed itself.

I'm not talking about desire and ambition and such. I'm talking about the bad, ugly type which costs others or leads to war or poverty for some....etc

Buttercup
2009-Sep-22, 08:29 PM
Only if money, status and power are also eliminated.

Extremely doubtful.

A friend of mine doesn't watch Star Trek (though I'm somewhat of a fan). His take on ST is "I don't recognize those humans."

Sad to say. :(

tdvance
2009-Sep-22, 08:30 PM
I guess if we all become robots, we will no longer have one person act for themselves as opposed to the whole, but short of that....

Now, to me, greed, is wanting things for the sake of wanting them--it's an emotional thing, e.g. you are so sure that if you have X, life will be good and your problems solved, but once you have X, now you want Y (or as the title of the song goes, "after you get what you want, you don't want it"--a later lyric--"If I gave you the moon, you'd get tired of it soon"). THAT's greed. It is most likely a survival instinct--causes one to hoard (hopefully, nonperishable) food against leaner times, for example.

Will we eradicate that? not without fundamentally changing the way a person's mind works. That might not necessarily be a good thing, of course.

cosmocrazy
2009-Sep-22, 08:31 PM
Only if money, status and power are also eliminated.

Extremely doubtful.

A friend of mine doesn't watch Star Trek (though I'm somewhat of a fan). His take on ST is "I don't recognize those humans."

Sad to say. :(

Yeah 3 good reasons for greed there BCV, can we exist as humans in a free society without them?

cosmocrazy
2009-Sep-22, 08:33 PM
tdvance

thats what i'm thinking.

tdvance
2009-Sep-22, 08:34 PM
Only if money, status and power are also eliminated.

Extremely doubtful.

A friend of mine doesn't watch Star Trek (though I'm somewhat of a fan). His take on ST is "I don't recognize those humans."

Sad to say. :(


we could eliminate money--i.e. the little green pieces of paper. We'd find a new money. It's either bartering or money, and money is so much more efficient, so much more that people WILL find a substitute, somehow, even if "money" just becomes good recordkeeping. status and power--well, as long as there are specialized jobs that need to be done, people will have different specializations, and that WILL equate to status/power differences, no matter how you try to arrange otherwise. Ah-ha! just caught myself. The person who does the arranging will have power and status!!!

Ain't gonna happen.

cosmocrazy
2009-Sep-22, 08:34 PM
Does anyone have any good stories about someone they know who was/is so greedy its almost sickening?

Neverfly
2009-Sep-22, 08:43 PM
I have been following, reading and even participating in several forums lately that have been discussing the "negatives" about human nature.

Greed.

Anger.

Violence.

Bullying high schoolers.

On the surface, it is easy to think these negatives should be eradicated.

They are harmful.

Well, bee-stings are harmful. Death is harmful to those that lost someone they loved. Twinkies have cholesterol and saturated fats.

And I am not a person that is new to pain, adversity, judgment, loss or discord.

All I can think when I read the many discussions I have been seeing...
Is what would we be without these things?

What would I be today if no one had judged me?

What would I be if I had not lost something when someone took advantage of me?

I do not know if greed or any other "negative" trait can be eliminated. But I would wonder if it should be.

cosmocrazy
2009-Sep-22, 08:55 PM
I know people who are greedy beyond belief, i also know people who haven't a greedy hair on their body. Both seem to get on in life, who is happier / more content. Does it matter in the scheme of things either way?

Neverfly
2009-Sep-22, 09:06 PM
Does it matter in the scheme of things either way?

Nahh...

eric_marsh
2009-Sep-22, 09:27 PM
Nature programmed us to survive in lean times and that means "stocking up" in times of surplus. Many of us live in what could be considered times of enormous excess. Our natural response has made many of us fat.

Perhaps greed is another aspect of the same thing, a natural instinct that makes us hoard in the times of surplus, but perhaps one that is less than entirely appropriate in the world that we live in.

But then again, the same could be said about many of our behaviors.

kleindoofy
2009-Sep-22, 10:09 PM
If you gave everybody on Earth everything they could possibly ever want or need, twice over, even thrice, not only would society more or less collapse, but crime would not disappear. People would still want to have more than the guy next door. The best, the biggest, the shiniest.

Greed is one of the most fundamental human emotions and motivators.

That aspect of STNG really bugs me. The worst part is that they take that "we humans are the best possible beings in the universe, even Q is intrigued and envious of us" mentality on a mission and try to convince every alien that can't run away fast enough of the virtuosity of the absolute moral superiority of their own ways.

Arnold Layne
2009-Sep-22, 10:33 PM
While i was watching Star Trek one evening i was wondering to myself about human nature. In the program Captain Piccard was explaining to a person from a less advanced race about how money, poverty and greed had been eradicated from modern Earth culture.

Is this truly possible? Can humans ever become advanced/civilised enough to eradicate greed?

Obviously i'm not looking to involve or encourage any politics and such like in this subject, but rather a discussion on how our human nature evolves!

Interesting that someone with a bee as an avatar should inquire whether humans can stop pursuing their individual interests :)


Yes but i'm talking about selfish greed at the cost of others in this particular case.

I don't know any other kind. That which benefits me, could have been used to benefit someone else instead. If I have a pepperoni pizza, it's because I decided it was more important for me to eat a pepperoni pizza than use the money to feed the starving, clothe the naked, vaccinate those vulnerable to diseases, and so on. Is that greed?

Being greedy seems to be one of those irregular verbs I referenced in other thread. The third person form is "He is greedy." The first person form is usually something much more noble sounding. I have yet to meet the striking workers who say they want higher wages because they are greedy. They usually use words like "fair," talk about how they deserve it, etc. If I go to the shareholders and ask them why they don't want to pay the workers higher wages, do they answer that it's because they're greedy? Or do they have more noble sounding motives? But, if the workers get more, the shareholders get less, and vice-versa. Self interest at the expense of others. Are both groups greedy? Or only one of them?

Neverfly
2009-Sep-22, 11:32 PM
That aspect of STNG really bugs me. The worst part is that they take that "we humans are the best possible beings in the universe, even Q is intrigued and envious of us" mentality on a mission and try to convince every alien that can't run away fast enough of the virtuosity of the absolute moral superiority of their own ways.

Almost all of Star Trek is like that.

Without Humanity, the Galaxy is at war...

Without Humanity, no Federation...

It's a main reason why I just check out the cool ships and ignore the show.

mike alexander
2009-Sep-23, 02:55 AM
I am always mildly surprised at the defense of greed. Especially by most people who will never get close to having all that wonderful stuff that will catapult them to even more. Or how it's from evolution. When there seem to be as many primitive (in the sense of 'closer to the origin') peoples who don't have a cultural acquisitive instinct as not.

I kind of assume it's akin to the lotteries, where, while your chance of winning is zero, it's just enough off zero to identify with the rich man.

Fantasy is a wonderful thing. It keeps the greedy in power.

Arnold Layne
2009-Sep-23, 05:40 AM
I kind of assume it's akin to the lotteries, where, while your chance of winning is zero, it's just enough off zero to identify with the rich man.

Fantasy is a wonderful thing. It keeps the greedy in power.

In your analogy, the people who want to win the lottery and do, are greedy, but the people who want to win the lottery and don't, are not? Have I understood correctly?

As for the chance of winning, in most lotteries I know about, it is small, but not zero.

Van Rijn
2009-Sep-23, 07:44 AM
I am always mildly surprised at the defense of greed. Especially by most people who will never get close to having all that wonderful stuff that will catapult them to even more.

Well, I think one reason is that people probably have very different concepts in mind when they use the word "greed." It doesn't help when there are poor definitions like the one found here (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/greed):


greed
n.
An excessive desire to acquire or possess more than what one needs or deserves, especially with respect to material wealth

Who defines what is excessive? Who defines what we need or deserve? To live, all a person needs is basic food and shelter, so should anything beyond that be considered greed? If so, I'm definitely in favor of greed. But if the definition involves playing zero-sum games to enrich oneself, I wouldn't defend that. I prefer games where everyone wins.

Perikles
2009-Sep-23, 07:49 AM
I am always mildly surprised at the defense of greed. I'm not surprised, I'm appalled. My dictionary defines greed as 'the inordinate or insatiate longing esp. of wealth'. Who can really claim that this is in any way desirable? Of course, the trouble is to specify inordinate.

Larry Jacks
2009-Sep-23, 01:28 PM
I'm not talking about desire and ambition and such. I'm talking about the bad, ugly type which costs others or leads to war or poverty for some....etc

Walking a fine line, there have been attempts to change human nature. Some, perhaps those within the framework of religion, have had some success. For example, Catholic priests and nuns take a vow of poverty and service to others. Many of them live up to that vow. I've read of some attempts to change human nature on a large scale. The one that immediately comes to mind was The New Soviet Man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Soviet_man) defined as someone who "was to be selfless, learned, healthy and enthusiastic in spreading the socialist Revolution. Adherence to Marxism-Leninism, and individual behaviour consistent with that philosophy's prescriptions, were among the crucial traits expected of the New Soviet man."

AFAIK, none of the large scale attempts were successful. For example, critics in the former Soviet Union claimed that the result of "The New Soviet Man" effort was Homo Sovieticus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_Sovieticus), characterized by:

Indifference to the results of his labour (as expressed in the saying "They pretend they are paying us, and we pretend we are working"), and lack of initiative.
Indifference to common property and petty theft from the workplace, both for personal use and for profit. A line from a popular song, "Everything belongs to kolkhoz, everything belongs to me" ("все теперь колхозное, все теперь мое"), meaning that people on collective farms treasured all common property as their own, was sometimes used ironically to refer to instances of petty theft. The Law of Spikelets, which made stealing from the collective punishable by ten years’ imprisonment, was a failed attempt to break this attitude.
Isolation from world culture, created by the Soviet Union's restrictions on travel abroad and strict censorship of information in the media (as well as the abundance of propaganda). The intent was to insulate the Soviet people from Western influence; instead, "exotic" Western culture became more interesting precisely because it was forbidden. Soviet officials called this fascination "Western idolatry" (идолопоклонничество перед Западом).
Obedience or passive acceptance of everything that government imposes on them (see authoritarianism). Avoidance of taking any individual responsibility on anything.

mike alexander
2009-Sep-23, 02:31 PM
In your analogy, the people who want to win the lottery and do, are greedy, but the people who want to win the lottery and don't, are not? Have I understood correctly?

As for the chance of winning, in most lotteries I know about, it is small, but not zero.

Ah, well, I never metaphor I didn't like. Roy Rogers, I believe.

No, my musing was poorly written. What I meant was that for just about everyone greed is a fantasy, a sin of intention, not commission. Since the odds of not winning a big lottery are about 0.999999999..... = 1, I figure the inverse is close enough to zero not to matter in any practical sense. Akin to anybody becoming the President of the US. Odds are... not.

All I was thinking about was what appears to me the largish number of people who come up with all sorts of defenses of inordinate greed who have no chance of practicing it themselves, who might even get hurt by the greedy acts of others.

We just seem to be going through one of those periodic Ayn Rand Phases. It too will pass.

Neverfly
2009-Sep-23, 02:38 PM
"Y'all got on this boat for different reasons, but y'all come to the same place. So now I'm asking more of you than I have before. Maybe all. Sure as I know anything, I know this - they will try again. Maybe on another world, maybe on this very ground swept clean. A year from now, ten? They'll swing back to the belief that they can make people... better. And I do not hold to that. So no more runnin'. I aim to misbehave. "

eric_marsh
2009-Sep-23, 03:26 PM
"Y'all got on this boat for different reasons, but y'all come to the same place. So now I'm asking more of you than I have before. Maybe all. Sure as I know anything, I know this - they will try again. Maybe on another world, maybe on this very ground swept clean. A year from now, ten? They'll swing back to the belief that they can make people... better. And I do not hold to that. So no more runnin'. I aim to misbehave. "

Making people "better" is a very interesting question. Of course the very first things that need to be answered is what does "better" constitute and of course who gets to determine what is "better"?

Perhaps some selective breeding might help. As demonstrated here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enrLSfxTqZ0 it's technologically feasible. Of course there are always those who object to progress. Direct genetic manipulation could provide a shortcut, assuming that you know what to tweak. As always there is the risk of unexpected side effects.

BTW, I think having a pet fox would be really cool.

mike alexander
2009-Sep-23, 07:22 PM
"Y'all got on this boat for different reasons, but y'all come to the same place. So now I'm asking more of you than I have before. Maybe all. Sure as I know anything, I know this - they will try again. Maybe on another world, maybe on this very ground swept clean. A year from now, ten? They'll swing back to the belief that they can make people... better. And I do not hold to that. So no more runnin'. I aim to misbehave. "

Thank you, Cap'n Reynolds. You da man.

Neverfly
2009-Sep-23, 07:51 PM
"It's getting harder for naughty men like us to slip about."

Scamp
2009-Sep-23, 07:53 PM
Can humans ever become advanced/civilised enough to eradicate greed?


Humm, I suppose it's possible but I'd have to know what's in it for me before I went along with the plan.

BigDon
2009-Sep-23, 07:55 PM
I was going to ask for someone to define "greed".

Neverfly
2009-Sep-23, 08:12 PM
I was going to ask for someone to define "greed".
Greed
noun
-The process of being greedy
-To exhibit greed
-Expressing the desire or intention of being greedy


Hope that helped.

SeanF
2009-Sep-23, 08:12 PM
All I was thinking about was what appears to me the largish number of people who come up with all sorts of defenses of inordinate greed who have no chance of practicing it themselves, who might even get hurt by the greedy acts of others.
So what you're suggesting here is that I should disapprove of "inordinate greed"...because there's nothing in it for me?

:)

tdvance
2009-Sep-23, 08:17 PM
Humm, I suppose it's possible but I'd have to know what's in it for me before I went along with the plan.

You're joking, but of course, that turns out to be the problem with various plans to deal with greed. How many attempts at an egalitarian society ended up with the protectors of equality being "more equal" than everybody else.

kleindoofy
2009-Sep-23, 08:40 PM
I am always mildly surprised at the defense of greed. Especially by most people who will never get close to having all that wonderful stuff that will catapult them to even more. ...
Well, there is a difference between defending greed and acknowledging that it's nearly ubiquitious and postulating about the improbabilty of its eradication.

Greed is not a stand alone emotion. It's related to and intertwined with many things. And it's certainly not limited to rich folk.

Is gambling addiction just greed, or is greed just a part of it?

What about envy? Does it have an element of greed in it?

What about all the people that fall for the "it's too good to be true" scams. There's definitley an element of greed there.

Triple the price of an item and tell the customer he can have three for the price of one ("buy one, get two free"). People will knock down the doors.

When people can get "something for nothing," they usually won't stop when they're ahead. They get greedy. They want more and more and more. Hence all the heavy losses in Vegas, the stock market, etc.

In my city, every year there's a "museum night." All the museums in the city are opened until late at night and admission is **free**. People will stand in long lines to get in and will spend most of the evening and night running around between museums. If they just went on a normal day, they could walk right in without waiting and have plenty of room, just for the whopping price of two whole Euros!

Well then, standing in line at night in a crowded house is worth saving those two Euros.

I see greed in those people. Every year.

People talk about having "tasted the blood" and "wanting more." There's a good portion of greed there.

I won't even start in on hedge fonds.

tdvance
2009-Sep-23, 08:47 PM
I'm not all that sure that the rich are really greedier than the poor (assuming one had an objective measure of greed to find out if the average greed level for a random sample of rich people is higher or lower than the same measure for a random sample of poor or middle class people). The reason is: I'd think a person with a lot of money is less likely to assume more money makes everything better than a person without that first-hand experience!

Now, I've heard here and there, that crime is often highest in places where poor and rich (upper middle class at least, presumably the rich being able to afford mega-security) live close together, suggesting the possibility that a poor person who sees a lot of rich people might have their greed reflex stimulated.

HenrikOlsen
2009-Sep-23, 09:17 PM
I won't even start in on hedge fonds.
Is that the one where people combine vegetarianism with miserliness and boil up their clippings in the hope of getting something edible for free?

cosmocrazy
2009-Sep-23, 09:19 PM
Its very interesting to see how you all react in your own individual ways. I see that my definition of greed and what that means to me is different than others and similar to some. I guess you have all answered my little thought question for me.

greed in the broader sense will never be eradicated since everybody wants more of something - more wealth, more power, more possessions, more food & drink, more time, more posts....:D the list is endless.

Ok so I'll have one more stab at it. The "greed" i'm talking about is like the tale of Scrooge, here you have a guy who is prepared to gain every extra last penny to improve his mountain bank balance at the cost of a starving sickness riddled family, Although this story is at the extreme i have witnessed not too dissimilar scenarios that have sickened me to the core. If this "greed" is acceptable because its part of "human nature" then I'd rather be a hermit far from any society which condones such selfish extravagance.. I have also met people who are so selfless that their personal wants pale in significance. Yes i want more money, better health, more time, more fun.. and so forth but at the cost of others who may suffer from my gain? No thanks.

Buttercup
2009-Sep-23, 09:20 PM
cosmocrazy: Yes i want more money, better health, more time, more fun.. and so forth but at the cost of others who may suffer from my gain? No thanks.

My thoughts exactly. :) I'm a firm believer in treating others as I'd like to be treated.

kleindoofy
2009-Sep-23, 09:29 PM
... The "greed" i'm talking about is like the tale of Scrooge, here you have a guy who is prepared to gain every extra last penny to improve his mountain bank balance at the cost of a starving sickness riddled family, ...
Scrooge's flavor of greed was more on the keeping side than on the gaining side.

Miserliness is also a form of greed.

kleindoofy
2009-Sep-23, 09:34 PM
... Yes i want more money, better health, more time, more fun.. and so forth but at the cost of others who may suffer from my gain? No thanks.
That may work on a local level, but the global level is a different story.

If you're from one of the "have" countries, you would be surprised just how much certain aspects your lifestyle make many in the "have not" areas suffer dearly.

Gains attained by greed tend to lead to indifference towards the losers.

cosmocrazy
2009-Sep-23, 09:45 PM
That may work on a local level, but the global level is a different story.

If you're from one of the "have" countries, you would be surprised just how much certain aspects your lifestyle make many in the "have not" areas suffer dearly.

Gains attained by greed tend to lead to indifference towards the losers.

Yes this is true, but its not my direct intention to gain more at the cost or suffering of others.
My thoughts are about individual "greed" at the local level. i.e to steal or acquire or con from a person to add personal gain from other people's downfall or suffering. This is my personal definition of "greed"

HenrikOlsen
2009-Sep-23, 09:47 PM
As long as greed provides a competitive advantage, nothing anyone does will remove it permanently.

cosmocrazy
2009-Sep-23, 09:55 PM
As long as greed provides a competitive advantage, nothing anyone does will remove it permanently.

Exactly! and this is what brought me to think about it in the first place. Do you think it would be ever possible to evolve beyond this?

I think not, but who am i to say.

IsaacKuo
2009-Sep-23, 10:04 PM
See Invasion of the Body Snatchers. Greed (and any other sort of non-comformity) provides a competitive disadvantage because that gets you noticed by the pod people.

Human culture could do much the same thing, by emphasizing our inate capacity to demand conformity above all else.

mike alexander
2009-Sep-23, 10:11 PM
I don't think greed can be eradicated, but I'd like to figure out a way to limit it. Just as I'd like to figure out a way to limit heroin use and NFL football.

tdvance
2009-Sep-23, 11:39 PM
Well, we limit it by laws against theft, of course!

NosePicker
2009-Sep-23, 11:54 PM
While i was watching Star Trek one evening i was wondering to myself about human nature. In the program Captain Piccard was explaining to a person from a less advanced race about how money, poverty and greed had been eradicated from modern Earth culture.

Is this truly possible? Can humans ever become advanced/civilised enough to eradicate greed?

Obviously i'm not looking to involve or encourage any politics and such like in this subject, but rather a discussion on how our human nature evolves!

No, greed itself won't be eradicated, but what people are greedy for can change from that which is required for life to that which is only required for luxury or pleasure.

korjik
2009-Sep-24, 04:49 AM
Its very interesting to see how you all react in your own individual ways. I see that my definition of greed and what that means to me is different than others and similar to some. I guess you have all answered my little thought question for me.

greed in the broader sense will never be eradicated since everybody wants more of something - more wealth, more power, more possessions, more food & drink, more time, more posts....:D the list is endless.

Ok so I'll have one more stab at it. The "greed" i'm talking about is like the tale of Scrooge, here you have a guy who is prepared to gain every extra last penny to improve his mountain bank balance at the cost of a starving sickness riddled family, Although this story is at the extreme i have witnessed not too dissimilar scenarios that have sickened me to the core. If this "greed" is acceptable because its part of "human nature" then I'd rather be a hermit far from any society which condones such selfish extravagance.. I have also met people who are so selfless that their personal wants pale in significance. Yes i want more money, better health, more time, more fun.. and so forth but at the cost of others who may suffer from my gain? No thanks.

Actually, I got this from the first post.

You are taking an entire spectrum of greed and trying to boil it down to an extreme and then say we should not have the extreme.

Greed, in and of itself, is not automatically bad. Even at the extremes. It is when that greed cannot be channeled into a worthy pursuit that it becomes a problem.

You can have a man who is extremely greedy, whos only thought is to add to the pile of his money, who does it by employing millions.

You can have another man who is just as greedy, who does it by bashing people on the head in dark alleys.

So it seems to me that instead of just getting rid of greed, we more need to make sure it is controlled. Not easy, but life dosent have to be easy.

closetgeek
2009-Sep-24, 12:30 PM
Most of the definitions of greed I find, all end with, especially with material wealth (or some variation). Can one be greedy for recognition; knowledge; admiration?

cosmocrazy
2009-Sep-24, 02:39 PM
Most of the definitions of greed I find, all end with, especially with material wealth (or some variation). Can one be greedy for recognition; knowledge; admiration?

maybe this is what i'm talking about in some way. Yes I'd like to think that humans can evolve into less selfish beings because ideally as technology improves then poverty and sickness should diminish, resulting in a less competitive world to survive in. But as we all know idealism is a fantasy in reality and therefore it may never happen.

I think there is a distinct difference between someone who is considered greedy because they are successful and in doing so make lots of money but without a direct effect on others, and those who are just basically out to rob/con in one way or another at all cost.

I'm not a greedy person in the sense that i'm not prepared to go out there and rip people off just to line my own pocket. I'm in business and i want to earn as much money as possible, at a fair price for a honest straight job. Unfortunately i will never be a millionaire trading like that, because in my experience good business means making as much money as possible for as little work as possible even if it requires cutting corners or ripping people off with a huge mark up. And don't try to convince me any other way because i have been in business for 20 years and have never seen good money made any other way. I accept this is the way of the world, but its not for me.
If an opportunity arises where i get some sort of windfall then i will accept that as good fortune.

korjik
2009-Sep-24, 09:19 PM
maybe this is what i'm talking about in some way. Yes I'd like to think that humans can evolve into less selfish beings because ideally as technology improves then poverty and sickness should diminish, resulting in a less competitive world to survive in. But as we all know idealism is a fantasy in reality and therefore it may never happen.

I think there is a distinct difference between someone who is considered greedy because they are successful and in doing so make lots of money but without a direct effect on others, and those who are just basically out to rob/con in one way or another at all cost.

I'm not a greedy person in the sense that i'm not prepared to go out there and rip people off just to line my own pocket. I'm in business and i want to earn as much money as possible, at a fair price for a honest straight job. Unfortunately i will never be a millionaire trading like that, because in my experience good business means making as much money as possible for as little work as possible even if it requires cutting corners or ripping people off with a huge mark up. And don't try to convince me any other way because i have been in business for 20 years and have never seen good money made any other way. I accept this is the way of the world, but its not for me.
If an opportunity arises where i get some sort of windfall then i will accept that as good fortune.

I have known a couple millionaires who didnt rip people off. They worked 60-80 hour weeks for years and made good. Honest dosent equal poor just as dishonest dosent equal rich.

Seems like you may be getting toward the borderline of envy. That may require a new thread.....

:)

tdvance
2009-Sep-24, 09:36 PM
Most of the definitions of greed I find, all end with, especially with material wealth (or some variation). Can one be greedy for recognition; knowledge; admiration?

Yes--I think the pope once suggested you can overdo a desire for anything, including knownledge. I don't know what he meant, but perhaps like, say, some unethical experiments of the past (or even present, but the past has the examples I know of, e.g. Jenner exposing people to smallpox without their knowledge to test his new vaccine, which luckily, worked).

Gruesome
2009-Sep-25, 03:27 AM
Is this truly possible?

IMHO......Nope.

cosmocrazy
2009-Sep-26, 08:10 AM
I have known a couple millionaires who didn't rip people off. They worked 60-80 hour weeks for years and made good. Honest doesn't equal poor just as dishonest doesn't equal rich.

Seems like you may be getting toward the borderline of envy. That may require a new thread.....

:)

I have yet to meet one! though i guess all things are possible.

yes envy can be a powerful emotion, you mis interpret my thoughts and feelings though since although i have strong opinions on this matter i don't envy wealth in that sense. If i was to be really envious, then that would be towards some one who cruised through life, found true love, had good health and never really came too much harm or distress. Give me happy but broke, over, rich, powerful & selfish at all costs, everytime!

korjik
2009-Sep-26, 06:04 PM
I have yet to meet one! though i guess all things are possible.

yes envy can be a powerful emotion, you mis interpret my thoughts and feelings though since although i have strong opinions on this matter i don't envy wealth in that sense. If i was to be really envious, then that would be towards some one who cruised through life, found true love, had good health and never really came too much harm or distress. Give me happy but broke, over, rich, powerful & selfish at all costs, everytime!

Again I will point out that poor dosent mean you are not selfish and rich and powerful does not mean that you are selfish. Wealth and selfishness are not automatically correlated.

Heck, being happy dosent mean you are not selfish.

I would point out that my comment on envy was supposed to be a joke, but I am feeling a bit slothful today :) :)

cosmocrazy
2009-Sep-26, 08:37 PM
No prob, i'm feeling a bit grumpy today so i guess i'm to blame.

Yes i get your point and i understand what you are saying.
I'm gonna leave this thread alone for a bit since i'm having a tough time at the mo so i'm struggling to be impartial with my comments. life is just a pain, with no light at the end of the tunnel just a closing dark hole.

Gruesome
2009-Sep-27, 02:32 AM
Can humans ever become advanced/civilised enough to eradicate greed?

Obviously i'm not looking to involve or encourage any politics and such like in this subject, but rather a discussion on how our human nature evolves!

I realize I've been treading on thin ice here lately...so let me put it this way....

When has human nature ever been advanced or civilized? How has our nature evolved?

If the world won't beat a path to your door for building a better mouse trap, why bother inventing one?

It's very easy to accept a work of fiction as the paradigm...but in the real world, things are not so black and white.

I firmly believe "greed" or "selfishness" is utterly the reason why the U.S. won the Space Race in the 60's. Think it up and get rich. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Lies, cheats and frauds should be punished. But overall I think 'greed works'.

megrfl
2009-Sep-29, 12:32 AM
Cosmocrazy, I hope you don't mind if I post this in your thread, but I thought it a good place to bring up the movie Wall Street and its sequel that is currently in production...

Wall Street II, to be released late April 2010. Gordon is back having just been released after serving twenty years in prison for insider trading. Timely, I guess.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_Street_2

I remember watching the original Wall Street back in 88’ and hearing Gordon state, “Greed is good.”, and a chill ran down my spine. A new perspective for me at least.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_Street_(film)


Arguably the most memorable scene in the film is a speech by Gekko to a shareholders' meeting of Teldar Paper, a company he is planning to take over. Stone uses this scene to give Gekko, and by extension, the Wall Street raiders he personifies, the chance to justify their actions, which he memorably does, pointing out the slothfulness and waste that corporate America accumulated through the postwar years and from which he sees himself as a "liberator".[18] The inspiration for the "Greed is good" speech seems to have come from two sources. The first part, where Gekko complains that the company's management owns less than three percent of its stock, and that it has too many vice presidents, is taken from similar speeches and comments made by Carl Icahn about companies he was trying to take over.[18] The defense of greed is a paraphrase of the May 18, 1986 commencement address at the UC Berkeley's School of Business Administration, delivered by arbitrageur Ivan Boesky (who himself was later convicted of insider-trading charges), in which he said, "Greed is all right, by the way. I want you to know that. I think greed is healthy. You can be greedy and still feel good about yourself".[18]

I've bolded the latter portion of the Wikipedia quote I cited because even though this doesn't work for me, I think it can be concluded that it's a personality thing.

Some kids genuinely share their lot and some kids hoard their lot and suffer insufferably of the gimmies or more more morezees. :)

Gruesome
2009-Sep-29, 01:44 AM
Greed
noun
-The process of being greedy
-To exhibit greed
-Expressing the desire or intention of being greedy


Hope that helped.

I'm not so sure it helped.

How can a definition contain the root of the word attempting to be defined?

It seems to me that the definition of RED CHAIR could be defined as 'a chair that is red'.

Don't help much.

Neverfly
2009-Sep-29, 01:48 AM
I'm not so sure it helped.

How can a definition contain the root of the word attempting to be defined?

It seems to me that the definition of RED CHAIR could be defined as 'a chair that is red'.

Don't help much.

You would be amazed at how many definitions I have read that were like that. American Heritage seemed notorious for it for a while...

Gruesome
2009-Sep-29, 02:43 AM
You would be amazed at how many definitions I have read that were like that. American Heritage seemed notorious for it for a while...

Maybe so.

But I disregard any attempts to do so.

BigDon
2009-Sep-29, 03:36 AM
Moose :clap: I say, good form.

As far as I'm concerned you can just lose all those posts.

BigDon
2009-Sep-29, 03:37 AM
I'm in the wrong thread. How odd.

Neverfly
2009-Sep-29, 03:39 AM
I'm in the wrong thread. How odd.

You left me scrolling up all baffled for nothing.

Go and see your brain mechanic. Now.


Oh... On topic...

Gruesome.
Yes, I agree. Bad definitions are bad.
There. Justified...

cosmocrazy
2009-Sep-29, 02:11 PM
Cosmocrazy, I hope you don't mind if I post this in your thread, but I thought it a good place to bring up the movie Wall Street and its sequel that is currently in production...

Wall Street II, to be released late April 2010. Gordon is back having just been released after serving twenty years in prison for insider trading. Timely, I guess.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_Street_2

I remember watching the original Wall Street back in 88’ and hearing Gordon state, “Greed is good.”, and a chill ran down my spine. A new perspective for me at least.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_Street_(film)



I've bolded the latter portion of the Wikipedia quote I cited because even though this doesn't work for me, I think it can be concluded that it's a personality thing.

Some kids genuinely share their lot and some kids hoard their lot and suffer insufferably of the gimmies or more more morezees. :)

No problem! I'm pleased you have posted it. Its a good point made, with some examples of how different people think and perceive. :)

cosmocrazy
2009-Sep-29, 02:13 PM
You left me scrolling up all baffled for nothing.

Go and see your brain mechanic. Now.


Oh... On topic...

Gruesome.
Yes, I agree. Bad definitions are bad.
There. Justified...

well you could have said "bad definitions are not good" :lol:

Neverfly
2009-Sep-29, 07:50 PM
well you could have said "bad definitions are not good" :lol:

Why would I do that?:confused:

BigDon
2009-Sep-29, 11:24 PM
What a sec, I thought we established over in my flightdeck thread that it was babies drinking corrosive liquids that was bad? Which is it?

Neverfly
2009-Sep-29, 11:54 PM
What a sec, I thought we established over in my flightdeck thread that it was babies drinking corrosive liquids that was bad? Which is it?

It is.
Bad headaches are also bad.


You see, BigDon, there are many things that are bad. Some... are worse than others.
There are also many things that are good.
Babies giggling is good.
Good definitions are good, too.

And some bad things are good.
Metallica is Bad! Which means it's good.

Micheal Jackson was Bad! But I don't know that that really means...

Some things that are Cool are good while some things that are Hot are good, too.
But something hot can be bad, such as my head when writing a post.


In the end, all good things are bad and good and all bad things are...
no wait...
All good things are good and ...
*scrubs!!...

Figure it out yourself!

darkhunter
2009-Sep-30, 01:35 PM
It is.
Bad headaches are also bad.


You see, BigDon, there are many things that are bad. Some... are worse than others.
There are also many things that are good.
Babies giggling is good.
Good definitions are good, too.

And some bad things are good.
Metallica is Bad! Which means it's good.

Micheal Jackson was Bad! But I don't know that that really means...

Some things that are Cool are good while some things that are Hot are good, too.
But something hot can be bad, such as my head when writing a post.


In the end, all good things are bad and good and all bad things are...
no wait...
All good things are good and ...
*scrubs!!...

Figure it out yourself!

[scratches head]
[reads again trying to figure it out]
[head explodes]

The English language is a very powerful tool that can be used to express exactly what you want to, and leave the other guy thinking you meant exactly what he thought--even when you disagree.

cosmocrazy
2009-Sep-30, 08:57 PM
[scratches head]
[reads again trying to figure it out]
[head explodes]

The English language is a very powerful tool that can be used to express exactly what you want to, and leave the other guy thinking you meant exactly what he thought--even when you disagree.

This happens to me all the time! :D

Gruesome
2009-Oct-01, 05:05 AM
Gruesome.
Yes, I agree. Bad definitions are bad.

Nice to hear. And I thought I was the only one.

Larry Jacks
2009-Oct-01, 01:47 PM
The English language is a very powerful tool that can be used to express exactly what you want to, and leave the other guy thinking you meant exactly what he thought--even when you disagree.

I remember seeing this several years ago: "I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I’m not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."

tdvance
2009-Oct-01, 09:45 PM
There is the story of the math professor who thinks A, says B, writes C, and the students interpret it as D, but the correct answer is E.

TheHalcyonYear
2009-Oct-01, 10:32 PM
Greed isn't going to be eradicated unless one changes people fundamentally. Seems to me that that mess with a person's free will...

Gruesome
2009-Oct-03, 03:52 AM
Greed isn't going to be eradicated unless one changes people fundamentally. Seems to me that that mess with a person's free will...

Huh?