PDA

View Full Version : Open Source Education



Durakken
2009-Oct-15, 10:10 PM
I had this loose idea just now (though somewhat part of an older idea I had)... Why don't we create an open source education system?

What do I mean by open source? I mean somehow creating a type of educational system that is free and online that allows individuals to educate themselves at their own pace and have that education recognized in some way.

We have the ability to do this with streaming video, websites, and volunteers.

I was thinking something like...

Person wants to learn a subject.
Person goes and watches videos and reads book thus educating themselves.
Person takes a test of some sort and sends it in to the system
The test is then sent to vetted individuals that check it and relay pass-fail grade to system
System then gives credits to person
Person upon getting enough required credits and/or meeting requirements gets degree

It sounds just like regular college, but makes it free and able to be spread over the world. That way if you want to learn say Japanese and you're in Africa you could learn it and get credit for it that you can say hey look i have a paper that says i can do it from a reliable system. Further it allows teachers that are able to teach higher level things to do both, teach, and work in their field while the lower level things can be handled by those trained in those area.

It would be beneficial to everyone and be relatively cheap to do.

jfribrg
2009-Oct-15, 11:01 PM
There is plenty of info available today to do just that. This suggestion doesn't sound like anything more than being self-taught except for the test bit at the end. The only problem with being self-taught is that the teacher doesn't know the subject. You can learn quite a bit on your own, but being able to ask questions and get answers makes learning far more efficient.

Durakken
2009-Oct-15, 11:19 PM
There is plenty of info available today to do just that. This suggestion doesn't sound like anything more than being self-taught except for the test bit at the end. The only problem with being self-taught is that the teacher doesn't know the subject. You can learn quite a bit on your own, but being able to ask questions and get answers makes learning far more efficient.

That's why the internet is such a wonderful place. If we had a system precisely for self teaching that mattered to the common person it would improve the world 10 fold in my opinion.

Rue
2009-Oct-16, 02:59 AM
This seems possible, a bit like MIT-OCW but with an actual instructor. It could pay for itself with advertising.

danscope
2009-Oct-16, 03:59 AM
Certain 'factions' would seem to love this. Abandoning bricks and mortar schools
is a dream for cheap people. These are the same people who don't know how to dovetail with society. And they wouldn't care if you or I dropped dead.
We have schools so as to educate people for life in society. It's more than rote learning. You have to live with people. There are social skills involved here.
Those who advocate the elimination of public schools think that medical science can be replaced with a box of band aids. Done!!!! And it didn't cost much.

Durakken
2009-Oct-16, 05:03 AM
danscope, strange thing...if i had something like this i'd probably be more social as it would allow me to get more job opportunities and free up more of my time and allow me to be better educated which would allow for more communication and thus more social.

Arguing that something should be included in something just because it has that supposed side benefit in the current system misses the point of education. Humans are naturally social and will be so regardless of how they are taught. The mere act of educating them in the way we do is destructive to social building so your argument falls flat.


Rue, not only would it pay for itself it would improve the efficiency of just about everything and if you open the database on who has what credits businesses could make specified searches while people could broaden their education and thus would bring more to the table for each individual job as well as meet he requirements for more jobs.

Sorta like how stem cells are, broad based with the ability to fit into any system in a specialized manor.

This system would also be better than the current degree program as degrees are more about showing length of time in college and education level...well with an open system you could see just how much work they have done overall.

Ara Pacis
2009-Oct-16, 06:24 AM
The problem is accreditation. I don't mean in specific terms, but the problem of fulfilling it in general. Educational institutions are trusted because they are held accountable to their stakeholders. The stakeholders in real educational institutions are students, instructors, employers and higher education institutions that rely upon graduates, and alumni who want a certain level of distinction and demonstrable expertise. Then there are ancillary stakeholders like the locals who make money off the students.

The inter-relation of all the stakeholders generally produce institutions that have means for demonstrating their ability to train students in various displines to a certain level of competence. An autodidact, a self-taught person, is the only person who can demonstrate his or her own level of competence, but most employers who would be stakeholders in their education have no means to verify such training without actually engaging in the expense of time and effort to measure an autodidact's fitness, or suffer the consequences for taking the word of someone who should be considered too biased to make an objective pronouncement. It's not enough to rely upon the honor system, as a person who is self-taught may not always know that they don't know something they should know, since they are not already experts. Hiring managers generally hire people based on referral, and with someone who is not already known via other employees, HR may decide to rely upon the word of someone or something they consider authoritative, e.g. a degree from an actual institution.

If we want to encourage autodidacts, then perhaps a real institution will produce tests. But educational institutions make money with such tests by giving them to students who are going to pay tuition and fees. Or they might charge fees for the tests. Maybe you could lobby government to provide such a service as an extention or see if textbook writers might offer testing. I don't think it would get much traction unless there was a way to independently validate an autodidact's knowledge without a trusted authority, and an anonymously administered service is unlikely to be trusted.

Durakken
2009-Oct-16, 06:50 AM
The problem is accreditation. I don't mean in specific terms, but the problem of fulfilling it in general. Educational institutions are trusted because they are held accountable to their stakeholders. The stakeholders in real educational institutions are students, instructors, employers and higher education institutions that rely upon graduates, and alumni who want a certain level of distinction and demonstrable expertise. Then there are ancillary stakeholders like the locals who make money off the students.

The inter-relation of all the stakeholders generally produce institutions that have means for demonstrating their ability to train students in various displines to a certain level of competence. An autodidact, a self-taught person, is the only person who can demonstrate his or her own level of competence, but most employers who would be stakeholders in their education have no means to verify such training without actually engaging in the expense of time and effort to measure an autodidact's fitness, or suffer the consequences for taking the word of someone who should be considered too biased to make an objective pronouncement. It's not enough to rely upon the honor system, as a person who is self-taught may not always know that they don't know something they should know, since they are not already experts. Hiring managers generally hire people based on referral, and with someone who is not already known via other employees, HR may decide to rely upon the word of someone or something they consider authoritative, e.g. a degree from an actual institution.

If we want to encourage autodidacts, then perhaps a real institution will produce tests. But educational institutions make money with such tests by giving them to students who are going to pay tuition and fees. Or they might charge fees for the tests. Maybe you could lobby government to provide such a service as an extention or see if textbook writers might offer testing. I don't think it would get much traction unless there was a way to independently validate an autodidact's knowledge without a trusted authority, and an anonymously administered service is unlikely to be trusted.

That is the problem and that is why there needs to be a way to accredit them. I am certain there is a way that I am not aware of that would fulfill this purpose.

What I am suggesting a evolution of the current system, not tossing it out.

What needs to be developed is a way that the educated side can be vetted and be considered able to grade a paper/test. The general fact question can be done via digital tests, but papers and such I would think that having the paper go out to several "volunteer educators" in that area of study and then having them give their say and then having a party take the comments and grades of the volunteers and merge them into one in some way would be the best way to do it...

As far as free goes...This system would be much more efficient cost wise and more beneficial in the scope of the overall. Free would mean more people are able to get more education and with more education they would be able to get better jobs that they like which would make them more productive and earn more. The more they earn the more money they have to spend and the more money they have to spend the better businesses and the economy does.

So in a business sense it lowers expenses and raises net profit. So everyone benefits from such a change.

The Backroad Astronomer
2009-Oct-16, 07:26 AM
Some courses is good to be in the classroom with the one teaching so you can ask direct questions and get answers right away.
Courses over the net would be good for things how to use certain software and a lot of first year college courses.

Ara Pacis
2009-Oct-16, 07:35 AM
As far as free goes...This system would be much more efficient cost wise and more beneficial in the scope of the overall. Free would mean more people are able to get more education and with more education they would be able to get better jobs that they like which would make them more productive and earn more. The more they earn the more money they have to spend and the more money they have to spend the better businesses and the economy does.

So in a business sense it lowers expenses and raises net profit. So everyone benefits from such a change.

People can already get an education for free at libraries. It's the validation that will cost them.

By the way, the economy can't be modelled so simply. Changes in employee capabilities affect competition for jobs, which affects compensation. If everyone in the world was a physicist, we should have garbage men with PhDs.

John Jaksich
2009-Oct-16, 07:41 AM
Some courses is good to be in the classroom with the one teaching so you can ask direct questions and get answers right away.
Courses over the net would be good for things how to use certain software and a lot of first year college courses.

I certainly agree with you-- but I it seems to me -- though--that open-source genre of education fits better with those individuals who have the educational sophistication as well as maturity to know how to appreciate it. The type of maturity that comes from previous experience in traditional settings-- I would tend to say.

As an off-tangent example-- I use a free version of Unix-- on my PC but it has come at a cost of time, a certain amount of freedom and conformity. I learned MS 3.1, 95, NT, etc, ... (and I am aware that Mr Gates did for the most part base the MS O/S on Unix...).... but does anyone believe that an open source education movement could be truly appreciated by all.

IMHO-- there is always someone who wants to profit on someone else's lack of ( for lack of a better word )--education.

NEOWatcher
2009-Oct-16, 06:16 PM
danscope, strange thing...if i had something like this i'd probably be more social as it would allow me to get more job opportunities and free up more of my time and allow me to be better educated which would allow for more communication and thus more social.
While Dan doesn't really express what I'm thinking, he does have a good point. It's not so much the socialization and communication that is where the social aspects of college come in, it's more of the being able to fit into a culture where demands are placed on you.

Where do you pick up the familiarity of deadlines? Goal oriented research? Listening to lectures? Following standards?
These things (I'm sure there's more) are things that are common in the "real" world and necessary for good advancement in life.

Besides, who decides what the criteria of testing is, and how do those standards get set? Who pays for that administration and testing?

Besides, as an employer (I've been in that position a few times), I'm going to hire the person I know can get something done within a reasonable time, rather than someone that I have no clue how long it takes them to complete. A structured college degree gives me that confidence. If I looked at someone who just "tested" out of something, then I have no clue if that person might take 4 times longer than the average person.


This system would also be better than the current degree program as degrees are more about showing length of time in college and education level...well with an open system you could see just how much work they have done overall.
I disagree, because a college degree has all the documentation on how much work they have done during that length of time.

danscope
2009-Oct-16, 07:22 PM
Yes, you percieved my response well. It is the concept of community as well as the one-on -one interaction and direct behavior modification which can never be replaced in our educational system by a static on line tool.
There are those who wish to chisel the system away and replace it with the internet. They know nothing of education.
I don't see any country in western civilization abandoning it's responsibility to educate it's children thoroughly and give them the tools to shape a
better future for everyone. Those tools give them the ability to learn well.
When they go into the real world, they must needs be able to learn on the job quickly. Those who go into business must needs learn even faster.
For those who have not the advantage of a well rounded education, their life and chances are dim. And it is not only the education these children get, but the opportunity to learn how to educate for themselves in that they soon enough will be parents of their own children. ........PARENTS ARE THE PRIMARY EDUCATORS !!
This is a well known truth. But it is difficult to do this job .
Education does this as no other agent can. It is a luxury we pay for.
Those who don't understand that missed a great deal in philosophy.
For them, it is more like "I've got mine." Those are a small and distinctly
philosophically poor minority.
Civilization is better than that. Really.
Let's look at another community.... the US Navy ( and other navies as well).
Do they just shanghai kids and throw them on a vessel to slave in ignorance? Obviuously no. Emphatically no. You would find that our navy
is most dedicated to education and collective advancement for the safety and effective performance of the community as a whole and the advancement and carreer satisfaction of the individual who applies himself and takes advantage of the system which offers the best technical education available. They spend great time, money and effort to do so. It Pays. So does public education. Really.

chrissy
2009-Oct-16, 09:51 PM
We have something like that already over here called the Open University, it is free for those on low incomes it is open to everyone, it isn't that expensive unless you require certain qualifications prior to gaining a recognised degree. You have a tutor allocated to you for advice.

HenrikOlsen
2009-Oct-16, 10:33 PM
And the way it works covers most of the objections, as a course has a set time period to complete and there are standard tests during that period as well as exams at the end.

The Open University is accredited in the UK as a full university, actually it's Britain's largest university based on attending students.

The main thing that's missing is attending lectures and it's fairly few actual work situations where that's a relevant skill.

The bit missing is that it's not free, though tuition is heavily subsidized by the government, something I found out when I took a couple of courses and wasn't covered (because I'm not British).

chrissy
2009-Oct-16, 10:57 PM
It isn't free to everyone that includes those on a high income to afford it. But those on a benefit or have children and on a low income. I have checked it out. ;)

danscope
2009-Oct-17, 01:28 AM
The collegiate academic situation is far different from grade school.
Once a person has graduated from high school, they should be ready to push themselves. In college, there is no one looking over your shoulder to see if you have done your homework. You pays your monies and you win or lose based on performance. Fail too often and you are invited out of the college.
On line university gives the logistic advantage to someone who must keep his day job, and cannot attend college 1200 miles away at exhorbitant fees..... books, dorms, etc etc . Online, one can take care of children and household and still have access to advanced education. That is what it is for.
The net is an extraordinary source of specialized information conveniently available to the individual. It remains to be seen how much you have to pay
for it, and how well it will be respected if you are trying to 'sell your degree'.
For the person who simply wants the information, the net remains his oyster
and the degree is not required.
It's a whole new library.

Dan

Ara Pacis
2009-Oct-17, 06:49 AM
The main thing that's missing is attending lectures and it's fairly few actual work situations where that's a relevant skill.

Most of the jobs I've had involved meetings skills.

Romanus
2009-Oct-17, 05:26 PM
It sounds like a good idea on paper; in theory I'd support it. But, it runs into a few potential problems:

1.) Even "free", the cost to develop and maintain that infrastructure--in terms of teachers, materials, hardware/software, power grids, and so forth--for the largest percentage of people would be formidable.

2.) Though (according to Wiki) world literacy is about 80%, the remainder still represent some one and a quarter billion illiterate people, strongly concentrated among poorer countries, and among them, women. These are the people who could use it most, yet who have the least ability to use it. As described, I think it would only help people who already have a reasonable access to higher education.

3.) Though I've never been a big fan of Maslow's hierarchy, this is a case in which I think the key point of satisfying lower interests and needs (food, security, economic stability) trumps the need for higher education, which usually requires not only stability, but a decent amount of free time, both at a premium in many parts of the world (even the more literate ones).

In short, though it's a good idea, I think the expansion of education globally is more important, a program that would be best implemented with a bottom-up approach, though I apologize if I've misread your post or the intent behind it (e.g., if you were talking about developed nations to begin with).

Re Ara Pacis:
I don't think it would get much traction unless there was a way to independently validate an autodidact's knowledge without a trusted authority, and an anonymously administered service is unlikely to be trusted.

Key point...

Durakken
2009-Oct-17, 06:36 PM
The thing is if you are going to do this, even if you develop it for one country the shear nature of the system makes it worldwide.

As far as costs. Running this would cost roughly the same amount or less and have a greater amount than the system we run now.

Let's limit this down to the US and say that there are 100m people that are in some way being educated right now. I would argue that at least half of the people in that 100 mil are being overlooked as fast or slow and are getting a worse education than they could. (2/3 would be a more logical ratio though) So 50million students are either over achievers and are being held back or are under achievers and can't keep up for some reason, whether that is because they didn't understand one thing and that throws them off or they just take a lot longer to understand or they don't and won't.

So in the "fast" learning camp we have people that are disenchanted with education and end up not contributing due to them not gaining the knowledge that they could use, people that just push on through a system not designed for them and overall lowers their knowledge cap, or people that quit their system learn on their own and educate themselves, but don't get credit and could have been so much better with people they could look to for help.

This is 25+% of all students that are being underutilized that have the passion to make a difference and have the ability to naturally but we aren't nurturing it and it is reducing the overall ability of these people.

these people don't need as much looking after and often take up little of the teacher's time, but in some cases they are actually a hindrance to the system itself because they are overly insightful and disrupt the class.

On the other hand we have under achievers who need more attention or just need to have more time to with the presented material which can't be done with the regular classes so they slip further and further behind and miss out on the understanding of many subjects. These guys are a hindrance due to interrupting the class with question that others understand and or simply take up a lot of time from the teacher that could be spent on the mediocre students.

These people need more looking after in the long run, but they also need more time or more information usually. Of course there are a few that just wouldn't get it no matter what and neither system will work in that case so who cares?

So what we are doing is wasting 50% of our children potential or more because those 50% hinder the other 50% as well and the whole correct ration might be 2/3 which in that case we are probably wasting something like 70-80% of the potential but meh.

Now if you were to take those students out to the side and allow them to learn in this method you cut all those problems save for then you have not enough teachers, but then look at what we have done... we have created a system where people are going to learn and if you don't think people that are capable of explaining information to these other people won't go there then you are missing what would be happening. Further teachers would have more time on their hands and if you make it part of regular teaching they'd be given probably equal or less work overall due to the fact that slow people and fast people both don't need as much time in this system because it is at their own pace so the fast person will likely ask few question and the slow person will ask lots but further in between.

As far as funding such a system... all the staff is already there. The only problem would be the system which wouldn't be that expensive to develop in comparison and the servers which even if you paid a monthly fee for would still be extremely cheap.

Further more with this system it is assume that plenty of qualified people would contribute, not only because they would be there learning themselves, but because most people are good natured and because of this questions that might be hard for a teacher to teach would be answer more efficiently by more qualified people and from different viewpoints and in different ways.

Like it is always said, "people learn differently" if we apply this we allow all the people that are willing and able with all different ways of learning and teaching to teach all the people that are will and able with all different ways of learning and allow those who should be credited, regardless of how they came to know something with the abilities that they have rather than dismissing them and losing their potential from the system.

HenrikOlsen
2009-Oct-17, 08:14 PM
Most of the jobs I've had involved meetings skills.
I consider meetings and lectures to be vastly different in the skills needed, for one, in meetings you have to be able to speak yourself.

Tobin Dax
2009-Oct-17, 09:04 PM
[snip]
Wait, children? You're proposing that a 5-year-old should teach him/herself? Because that's effectively what someone does in an online class. The teacher is there, but the student has to take responsibility, try to understand the material on their own, and reach out for help on their own. (I speak from experience here, and this is exactly how the system you propose would have to work.) I don't know that I would even let a 14-year-old learn this way. (I speak from experience here, too, since I was giving myself D's on algebra homework that I was stuck learning by myself at age 13.)

There may be issues with the current education system, but your system is not appropriate for children. It could work for post-secondary education (as in the Open University), but not earlier than that.

However, the infrastructure needed for what you propose in that post would be very expensive, no matter the education level. Teaching, grading, and communicating with students takes a lot of time. For the number of students that you want to use this system, it's going to take a moderate number of people a lot of time to act as teachers or it's going to take a whole lot of people with a limited amount of time to act as teachers. Since you're asking these people to teach for free, it's the latter, and you won't be able to find the manpower for a number of topics. This open source system won't reduce the overhead cost significantly either, considering all of the inner workings that have to run smoothly. There are legitimate reasons why post-secondary education costs a lot.

Durakken
2009-Oct-17, 09:42 PM
Tobin, flat out you are wrong. Most kids are more comfortable doing exactly what you are saying they aren't than there are kids that are comfortable with the current system and quite frankly I find it highly insulting that you think that children aren't capable of learning in this method especially when I know I could and did for a lot of what I learned pre-highschool and I wouldn't consider myself special AND the thing that you are saying they can't do... IT IS MORE NATURAL TO DO IT THE WAY I AM PROPOSING.

The only reason people think it's not natural or a bad idea is because the modern education system is ingrained into their minds as a good system. The natural way people learn is to seek it on their own at their own pace.

There are two problems with learning on your own... you often get distracted by other things that look like they are interesting or that they fit with what you want to know. A little guidance and in this area, which isnt overly strict as it is in the current system solves this.

The other problem is credit and this solves that as well.

As far as your comments about expenses go... no, I explained why that is bunk.




Most of the jobs I've had involved meetings skills.


I meant to cover this in my last post. This is another misinformed idea. The kids that would benefit the most from what I am proposing are more or less outcasts in the current system and there is no social education going on that you are suggesting... On the other hand things such as forums and games which are stupidly being called antisocial are very social. They may not be the same social customs and the physical parts may be lacking a little, though that is changing, but they are social. If they aren't then i'd like to know what you call talking with groups of people... and not just small groups but groups that are in the thousands or millions.



I am not saying to take apart the current system. I am saying construct this new system so everyone has an option to do it this way or that and not to mention this system would even help out those who want to remain in the current system as well.

There is no downside to something like what I am proposing and it really boggles my mind that people can be so resistant to an idea that benefits everyone.

danscope
2009-Oct-18, 06:04 AM
The reason we won't employ this scheme is that we love our children.

Now, if you want to talk about parallel tutoring, well.... there may well be a
place for this. Helping students brush up and catch up with things like nomenclature in algebra and geometry, online video presentations of history,
Power point demonstrations of geography, science, chemistry. Yes, I can see these things brought on to supplement the classroom, and serving our educational community well. No question. And it will be done for free,...
free access to this. Everyone is well served.
But don't for a minute think we will abandon our children's education
and substitute a TV. Not gonna happen. Wouldn't be prudent.

Dan

Ara Pacis
2009-Oct-18, 08:46 AM
I consider meetings and lectures to be vastly different in the skills needed, for one, in meetings you have to be able to speak yourself.

I've been in meetings that were more like lectures than seminars. It involves the ability to take notes while listening and thinking ahead for what to the information as well as thining of questions to ask during Q&A.

Durakken
2009-Oct-19, 07:25 PM
The reason we won't employ this scheme is that we love our children.

Now, if you want to talk about parallel tutoring, well.... there may well be a
place for this. Helping students brush up and catch up with things like nomenclature in algebra and geometry, online video presentations of history,
Power point demonstrations of geography, science, chemistry. Yes, I can see these things brought on to supplement the classroom, and serving our educational community well. No question. And it will be done for free,...
free access to this. Everyone is well served.
But don't for a minute think we will abandon our children's education
and substitute a TV. Not gonna happen. Wouldn't be prudent.

Dan

Dan I have to ask if you have watched the TED conference videos on youtube.

Here's one for example...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPQViNNOAkw&feature=channel_page

You should go and watch them.

Also, nice try at an emotional plea, which is a logical fallacy and not to mention it's wrong. You love your children so you are limiting their education? That sounds off. Think about it.

danscope
2009-Oct-19, 07:55 PM
No one puts limits on education. If you think your 5th grader is capable of quadratic equations, push him. You are the one responsible for your child.
No question. Accelerated learning is a separate reality for a few. And it remains a separate debate.
And I shall view your youtube link.
Best regards,
Dan

Durakken
2009-Oct-19, 09:44 PM
No one puts limits on education. If you think your 5th grader is capable of quadratic equations, push him. You are the one responsible for your child.
No question. Accelerated learning is a separate reality for a few. And it remains a separate debate.
And I shall view your youtube link.
Best regards,
Dan

That doesn't work for most.
Parents supposedly don't have time.
Schools don't like to advance students beyond a grade due to social awkwardness.
Some people are better in one area and not in others that they need to take say english at a lower level and math at a higher level.

This type of thing is not supported in any way by our system.

An average system created for average students results in an average future. We should strive for excellence both in the students and in the system.

danscope
2009-Oct-20, 03:30 AM
You appear to have quite a sterile and clinical view of education. The idea of parents that don't have time for their children's education is the shabbiest concept in western civilization. YOU MAKE TIME !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!\
No question. Those who make time and use it well have a much better
handle on raising children and have a better relationship throughout life.
These children tend to do well. And they tend to not be boomerangs.
There can be no compensation for a good childhood and parents who do there job. I pray for those who must try to be that. They are pressed for much.
An electronic village will not be any substitue for The Family together with
their school and community. And that's a fact.

Durakken
2009-Oct-20, 03:39 AM
You missed the sarcasm bit in there. I think parents that can't make time for their kids should have their kids taken away... but then I also think that the family system is something that should go away.

As far as replacement. I am not saying get rid of the family or the community but rather expand it through the technology that we have.

danscope
2009-Oct-20, 04:09 AM
Hi, I agree that access to more educational media on the net is more than helpfull, and with the comming of fibre optic access like verizon etc etc
you shall have access to an unlimited number of TV channels. Really.
We are just seeing the next stage of the internet when we consider the
quantum increase in bandwidth and memory . Our intellectual interest will be satiated on demand. It is only a question of how free it will be, now and in the future.
For instance: I am building an aeroplane, a kitfox. I will be able to call up the Kitfox channel and click on wing building and assembly, and hook up with the pertinent information in real time , devoid of interruption.
Or stone work or bread ovens or machining or sewing etc etc etc. It's happening now. It will happen more and more.
This is a good thing. Do it yourself is taking off by leaps and bounds .....
for those who work at it. Fear and frustration are being replaced by
learning, experience and video-illustrated instruction. It is a parallel effort.
It is not to replace education, but to be there once one has learned how to learn.
Best regards,
Dan

Tuckerfan
2009-Oct-20, 04:32 AM
Am I the only here who's heard of Academic Earth (http://academicearth.org/)?


We are building a user-friendly educational ecosystem that will give internet users around the world the ability to easily find, interact with, and learn from full video courses and lectures from the world’s leading scholars. Our goal is to bring the best content together in one place and create an environment in which that content is remarkably easy to use and where user contributions make existing content increasingly valuable.

HenrikOlsen
2009-Oct-20, 10:12 AM
Well, they don't know the meaning of the word ecosystem that's for sure.
How good can the rest of what they do be it they are that ignorant.

Durakken
2009-Oct-20, 06:20 PM
Well, they don't know the meaning of the word ecosystem that's for sure.
How good can the rest of what they do be it they are that ignorant.

How can we trust that you know that they used the word ecosystem is wrong when you made a type in your sentence?

HenrikOlsen
2009-Oct-20, 06:47 PM
How can we trust that you know that they used the word ecosystem is wrong when you made a type in your sentence?
Rule Number One of the internet: If you post to correct someone's spelling, you'll misspell a word in your post.

Durakken
2009-Oct-21, 02:43 AM
Another TED conference presentation supporting this...

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=TEDtalksDirector#p/u/259/xRb7_ffl2D0

mugaliens
2009-Oct-21, 04:51 AM
Anyone with half a hankering to learn can find more than enough info to keep their brains topped off.

danscope
2009-Oct-23, 03:31 AM
And that is the point. We as a society shall do right by our children and continue their technical and social education in the TRADITIONAL ways,
and when they have enjoyed this, they will be tooled up for the expanding
world of knowledge that awaits them in the real world, the library and in cyberspace.
But primary education will not be cheapened like a $50 HMO, simply to suit
the wishes of those who disliked their 3rd grade teacher and abhor paying their taxes . No. They shall always be out-voted by cooler heads and rational people.
And each generation shall stand on the shoulders of their parents and go on to be teachers and parents themselves. And it works well.
Best regards,
Dan

Durakken
2009-Oct-23, 07:47 AM
And that is the point. We as a society shall do right by our children and continue their technical and social education in the TRADITIONAL ways,
and when they have enjoyed this, they will be tooled up for the expanding
world of knowledge that awaits them in the real world, the library and in cyberspace.
But primary education will not be cheapened like a $50 HMO, simply to suit
the wishes of those who disliked their 3rd grade teacher and abhor paying their taxes . No. They shall always be out-voted by cooler heads and rational people.
And each generation shall stand on the shoulders of their parents and go on to be teachers and parents themselves. And it works well.
Best regards,
Dan

You know, rhetoric that doesn't sound insulting is still so when the meaning is.

The reality of the matter is every situation shows that the thing you call traditional is not only breaking down, but it is inferior to what the supposed chaos that is replacing it.

#1 I don't appreciate being called irrational, especially when all the data I have ever seen supports my view and none of it supports the traditional view.

#2. You assume that that I and others that would want something like this have had a horrible experience and that is the only reason we'd want to replace something. That's another stone being tossed and it is illogical to think that. If a system can be improved or replaced with something better it should be.

#3. You assume that traditional education is good or the best for children when it probably isn't especially when it experiments have shown quite a number of problems with how things are currently done and better ways to do not only those things but much of the rest of the system.

danscope
2009-Oct-23, 07:48 PM
Just curious: Do you have children? Have you experience with them?
Have you taught school at any level, especially grade school?
There are several teachers in my family, including my spouse who taught for 35 years . I have discussed this subject with them, and they agree with me for the reasons I have stated.
Canned education in cyber space will not do.

Durakken
2009-Oct-23, 08:12 PM
That's just stupid. To think that you need to be a "teacher" or parent to understand a system, experience a system, improve a system is just flat out ridiculous. Consider that some people that are good teachers are not teachers and some and most people that would be good parents aren't parents or don't have as many kids so by your logic would be less in a position to make such a decision.

Asking a anyone whether getting rid of their job is good or not and expecting them to say yes is just as stupid if not more so than the previous statement.

And lastly... "canned education" is what you get now. What I am suggesting is the complete antithesis to that.

Tobin Dax
2009-Oct-24, 01:38 AM
This is starting to sound like it belongs in the CT forum.

HenrikOlsen
2009-Oct-24, 06:58 AM
One thing I've been wondering is to what extent an online program could be made that would allow a literate but otherwise not highly educated adult to teach young children, because I think that's probably where the greatest impact on teaching in developing countries could come.

mugaliens
2009-Oct-25, 07:27 AM
Canned education in cyber space will not do.

Sorry, but it already is, and has been since the 1980s and the PC clones. I know several professionals who finished high school on a PC, and most colleges have online programs which are quite successful.


One thing I've been wondering is to what extent an online program could be made that would allow a literate but otherwise not highly educated adult to teach young children, because I think that's probably where the greatest impact on teaching in developing countries could come.

The only programs which last are those developed by educators, usually PhDs, which walk both the student and their attendant (usually the parent) through all the steps. I've seen several, and they're quite remarkably well developed in the way the replace the teacher with the parent and some written guidance for the parents and the students.

As my own son has grown, I bought several software learning packages and additional paper workbooks for math and english, presenting them to him as I would the usual puzzlebooks. He ate 'em up, writes better that I did when I was in middle school, and he tests in the fifth grade across all subjects except history/social studies.

He's in the third grade.

Based on my experience, they work quite well.

danscope
2009-Oct-25, 03:25 PM
Hi Mugs, As I stated, we are talking about primary education....grade school. For a small part of society, the only hope is to finish on their own....
perhaps within the cyber venue. But these kids don't have the reading comprehension skills to accomplish the job. Tough road. These are the ones who didn't want it to begin with. It remains to be seen.
But cyber school won't replace a professional teacher and a good local school. No question.

Dan

HenrikOlsen
2009-Oct-25, 03:56 PM
As my own son has grown, I bought several software learning packages and additional paper workbooks for math and english, presenting them to him as I would the usual puzzlebooks. He ate 'em up, writes better that I did when I was in middle school, and he tests in the fifth grade across all subjects except history/social studies.

He's in the third grade.

Based on my experience, they work quite well.
Difference to my scenario is that you have had education beyond learning enough to read the material.
The situation I'm asking about is the one of essentially bootstrapping an educational system where none was before.

mugaliens
2009-Oct-25, 04:45 PM
But cyber school won't replace a professional teacher and a good local school. No question.

Dan

Sorry, Dan, but it already has (for twenty years - where have you been???) and these kids do as well on any standardized test, as well as in college, as kids educated by more traditional methods.

Standing there denying it ain't so doesn't change reality.

Have a nice day! As for myself, I'm taking my son (he lives in CA) on a online tour of the EM spectrum this afternoon using Yahoo! IM, Wikipedia, and whatever other resources we find. Guided exploration at it's best!

Ciao!

Doodler
2009-Oct-25, 05:08 PM
We're a society obsessed with standardization. It expects you to achieve a pre-set, populism approved, set of milestones by a specific age, or you're considered a "deviant" beneath their consideration.

There are too many college/university ring-knockers who'll see their sacred wall decorations reduced to obsolescence by the deconstruction of a rigorous, regimented educational system that doesn't march you from one room to the next at the sound of a bell.

danscope
2009-Oct-25, 11:45 PM
Sorry, Dan, but it already has (for twenty years - where have you been???) and these kids do as well on any standardized test, as well as in college, as kids educated by more traditional methods.

Standing there denying it ain't so doesn't change reality.

Have a nice day! As for myself, I'm taking my son (he lives in CA) on a online tour of the EM spectrum this afternoon using Yahoo! IM, Wikipedia, and whatever other resources we find. Guided exploration at it's best!

Ciao!

Hi, Yes,..... "Guided" education. There is a whole world there. I know.
But for many, There is no guide. The parents or parent or gaurdian do not have the teaching skills, yea reading skills etc to prepare a young person for
The world ahead. Different game. Lucky and worthy is the parent who can and does his job in partnership with education professionals. These children fly quite well. No question.
But there is an element that simply wants to isolate public education and with a vengence, kick the ladder away after they themselves have climbed, and to blazes with the rest. Cheapen their tax bill etc etc.
They see no purpose for public education. Period. They do not see cyber space as a tool to supplement a good education as the tool it should be.
They see it as a cheap way to reduce their taxes..."AND NOTHING ELSE".

Best regards always,
Dan

mugaliens
2009-Oct-26, 08:21 AM
There are too many college/university ring-knockers who'll see their sacred wall decorations reduced to obsolescence by the deconstruction of a rigorous, regimented educational system that doesn't march you from one room to the next at the sound of a bell.

I know - isn't it glorious? Much like the change from agriculturalism to industrialism to the computer age. Gott love progress!


But for many, There is no guide.

While this may be true over the number of offerings, it's not true over the number of purchased programs. Parents are a fairly particular bunch when it comes to the education of their kids, particularly when they choose to shell out a few thousand extra dollars a year for a program.


The parents or parent or gaurdian do not have the teaching skills...

For the third time, danscope, the "teaching skills" are built into the program itself by the professional educators who develop the program. Parent's are required to have "teaching skills." Merely average parenting skills, as in, "Ok, Jimmy, it's time to brush your teeth," and "it's time to begin your schoolwork."


But there is an element that simply wants to isolate public education and with a vengence, kick the ladder away after they themselves have climbed, and to blazes with the rest. Cheapen their tax bill etc etc.
They see no purpose for public education. Period.

I have not observed this. Period. What I have observed are traditionalists who keep trying to kick the ladders out from under others who choose an alternative means of educating their children, particularly if those tax-paying individuals would like a few of their school tax-dollars to be diverted to subsidizing the programs (usually at a substnantial reduction of the cost of public education).

danscope
2009-Oct-26, 05:26 PM
Another example of a cheap charter school.

mugaliens
2009-Oct-27, 10:54 AM
Another example of a cheap charter school.

Where? Be more specific.

danscope
2009-Oct-27, 06:09 PM
Let's keep politics out of it. I guess my opinion has been stated well enough.
Those who advocate robotic education seem to be little bad boys who don't like school. Their dreams of staying home to watch tv have taken form in
these monuments to scrooge mcduck. It is a feeble plan without merit.
You shall have your community school for a very very very long time.
A sacrifice of quality education in the name of efficiency is not going to sell
in congress. That's why we have one. People run these stained rags up the flagpole from time to time. It is the peculiar ravings of people who don't understand education, human interaction and community.
We don''t trust our children to a ship of fools.
Well, enjoy your tv dinner and your airplane pretzels and those little dried up biscuits that say'cookies' on the foil bag. Not quite like the real thing,are they? No. Neither is robotic education and abandoning our responsibilities to personally educate our sacred charges.
Education is a much more complicated and serious business than many believe, and our most worthwhile activity in every community everywhere.
No question.

danscope
2009-Oct-27, 08:24 PM
Question; Are ther any teachers out there? Grade school especially??
Your input is welcomed. There are advocates for replacing teachers, which are apparently as superfluous as the check out people at home depot and super stop and shop. Out with the old, in with the new. Nothing personal. It's just business. Your kid will get by sort of. Whatever. And anyway, we have our education so we are all set. OR..... is there any voice for formal education ?
This may prove to be a debate of some revelance. It certainly reveals
attitudes towards community, responsibility and the wallet.
It remains for you to advance an opinion.
Inquiring minds want to know.

Doodler
2009-Oct-27, 08:28 PM
I know - isn't it glorious? Much like the change from agriculturalism to industrialism to the computer age. Gott love progress!

I have no personal issue with it, since we're already halfway there with online universities. Doing away with it altogether is going to be a bit of a challenge, because the most critical part of education is accreditation via certain standardized milestones.

At least as we measure educational progress in current terms.

danscope
2009-Oct-27, 09:15 PM
Hi Doodler, Yes, I quite agree that as a secondary educational tool, the internet is extraordinary, and inherently specialized in it's ability to excell in
dedicated areas which ordinarily are a financial and logistic quagmire.
But as to primary education, There shall be the case for public education.
A recent converstaion with my wife brought up the concept of homework.
There are just a few kids who don't DO homework, forget about it, the dog ate it etc etc etc ad infinitum. And..... the parents? Not involved.
So................................... in a cyber school where are these same parents??? ! !! !!! And THAT is where this speculative experiment in cyber
twaddle crashes to the ground.
In college, you drive yourself. If you don't do the work, you lose your money and your status within that community. You get canned.
The internet is there for those who want to explore their interest within the confines of their own schedule. They can stop what they are doing and do something else demanding their time, and get back to it later.
For those who have learned how to learn, their educational discipline carries them well through life and within cyber space. Different game.
Dan

Doodler
2009-Oct-28, 12:47 AM
Hi Doodler, Yes, I quite agree that as a secondary educational tool, the internet is extraordinary, and inherently specialized in it's ability to excell in dedicated areas which ordinarily are a financial and logistic quagmire.

No argument out of me, here.


But as to primary education, There shall be the case for public education.

A recent converstaion with my wife brought up the concept of homework.
There are just a few kids who don't DO homework, forget about it, the dog ate it etc etc etc ad infinitum. And..... the parents? Not involved.
So................................... in a cyber school where are these same parents??? ! !! !!! And THAT is where this speculative experiment in cyber
twaddle crashes to the ground.

Agreed, in most cases. I won't sit here and delude myself into thinking your average schoolkid alone is going to have the drive needed to make a cybermodel education work. However, for those cases where there is active parental engagement, it could work. In that model, its not a far leap from homeschooling, which while raising eyebrows for the various reasons parents look into it, is an accepted model of primary education.


In college, you drive yourself. If you don't do the work, you lose your money and your status within that community. You get canned.
The internet is there for those who want to explore their interest within the confines of their own schedule. They can stop what they are doing and do something else demanding their time, and get back to it later.
For those who have learned how to learn, their educational discipline carries them well through life and within cyber space. Different game.

Dan

Again, no disputing your point here.

Pardon my sorting your paragraphing a bit, no intent to modify the meaning of what you said, just organize it a bit for my responses.

Durakken
2009-Oct-28, 12:58 AM
Dan.

#1. It would be much appreciated if you would stop insulting people.

#2. As a famous person said, but i can't remember who... "A teacher that can be replaced should be." in other words... If you are a great teacher that outperforms the other ways of education, great, you still have a job, but if you are not then there is no point in keeping you around.

#3. Homework...
#3a. Most schools are cutting back on it now because the system has overloaded children with homework and t hurts their grades. Parents and Teachers have overloaded their kids with this nonsense and in the end hurt the kid's education. They get burnt out and/or stressed out which causes so many problems that it ridiculous and it's mostly in an effort to battle against a kid's natural tendencies, which btw are to educate themselves.

#3b. People have really dropped the ball on the concept of homework and grading on it. The point of homework is to help a person understand a concept. if a kid understands the concept the homework is wasting their time. But it's for a grade you say? Homework should not count as a grade. That's not it's point. Tests and Papers are for testing ones knowledge. Homework is for helping the kid learn the knowledge. If the kid knows the knowledge or doesn't need the homework then you are artificially lowering the grade of a kid that should be consider at a higher standard.

Do the math. It's pretty easy to see that a smart kid that doesn't need the homework and gets a 100% on the test will have a lower overall grade to the kid that did the homework and got an 99%. You are rewarding failure to produce results by grading homework.

#3c. Sidenote: Another bane is attendance. Teachers that grade you for participation and attendance (in most cases) are simply egotistical or idiots. They are artificially lower the grade so that they can claim that those that come to class learn more than those that don't. Again Someone that scores 100% on a test is punished because they didn't attend where as someone who scores a 99% is rewarded. The fact is that the kid that scored 100% is the one that society wants more. They produced better results. By saying that their attendance mattered is nonsense especially when it makes up so much of the overall grade that you fail if you don't attend. Again the teacher is wasting the time of the student.

#4. If you watched the videos I posted it clearly shows that "guided" education is unneeded. The one talks about a bunch of kids picking up english on their own. The important part of educating a kid is not guidance... it is having a group of people that bounce off of each other. That is, depending on whether forums and such produce the same type of grouping, the only argument that one really has for standard education. The teachers and such usually are just impediments.

HenrikOlsen
2009-Oct-28, 01:42 AM
The one talks about a bunch of kids picking up english on their own.
But which English? The one with spelling, punctuation or grammar or the miserable txtspk trash you see on the internet these days?

The educational system is there to make it possible for every child, in spite of social background, to be brought up to the level where they have the skills and knowledge to step further up on their own.
That's what you're arguing for tearing down, apparently because you'd be capable of providing that first step to your own children, and to damnation with those who don't have that privilege.

Your way would generate a two-class system of lower-class children with no knowledge and no idea that knowledge has merit vs. the uppe-class children of motivated educated parents.
That you're one of the motivated educated people who'd end up with an upper-class child capable of reading does not make abandoning the others to their fate right.

Tobin Dax
2009-Oct-28, 03:54 AM
#3. Homework...
#3a. Most schools are cutting back on it now because the system has overloaded children with homework and t hurts their grades. Parents and Teachers have overloaded their kids with this nonsense and in the end hurt the kid's education. They get burnt out and/or stressed out which causes so many problems that it ridiculous and it's mostly in an effort to battle against a kid's natural tendencies, which btw are to educate themselves.

#3b. People have really dropped the ball on the concept of homework and grading on it. The point of homework is to help a person understand a concept. if a kid understands the concept the homework is wasting their time. But it's for a grade you say? Homework should not count as a grade. That's not it's point. Tests and Papers are for testing ones knowledge. Homework is for helping the kid learn the knowledge. If the kid knows the knowledge or doesn't need the homework then you are artificially lowering the grade of a kid that should be consider at a higher standard.

Do the math. It's pretty easy to see that a smart kid that doesn't need the homework and gets a 100% on the test will have a lower overall grade to the kid that did the homework and got an 99%. You are rewarding failure to produce results by grading homework.

#3c. Sidenote: Another bane is attendance. Teachers that grade you for participation and attendance (in most cases) are simply egotistical or idiots. They are artificially lower the grade so that they can claim that those that come to class learn more than those that don't. Again Someone that scores 100% on a test is punished because they didn't attend where as someone who scores a 99% is rewarded. The fact is that the kid that scored 100% is the one that society wants more. They produced better results. By saying that their attendance mattered is nonsense especially when it makes up so much of the overall grade that you fail if you don't attend. Again the teacher is wasting the time of the student.

#4. If you watched the videos I posted it clearly shows that "guided" education is unneeded. The one talks about a bunch of kids picking up english on their own. The important part of educating a kid is not guidance... it is having a group of people that bounce off of each other. That is, depending on whether forums and such produce the same type of grouping, the only argument that one really has for standard education. The teachers and such usually are just impediments.
I really need to turn in for the night, so I'll just make a couple of quick comments.

Regarding #3a, is the amount of homework being cut back from "too much" or from the "standard" amount? Can you provide evidence of this?

Regarding #3 and #4, I would have [college] students storming my office with torches and pitchforks if 100% of their grade was based on the tests. That's not just because my tests are hard.

Okay, one more comment: Homework is practice, as in "practice, practice, practice." If you don't grade it, it won't be done. The average student won't do what they not required to do for a grade. This is due to the student, not the teacher.

I've heard all of these arguments, and I've thought through them. I have a reason to do these things that you don't like. You haven't presented me with any solid reasoning against them (or support for your claims).

Durakken
2009-Oct-28, 05:42 AM
I really need to turn in for the night, so I'll just make a couple of quick comments.

Regarding #3a, is the amount of homework being cut back from "too much" or from the "standard" amount? Can you provide evidence of this?

Regarding #3 and #4, I would have [college] students storming my office with torches and pitchforks if 100% of their grade was based on the tests. That's not just because my tests are hard.

Okay, one more comment: Homework is practice, as in "practice, practice, practice." If you don't grade it, it won't be done. The average student won't do what they not required to do for a grade. This is due to the student, not the teacher.

I've heard all of these arguments, and I've thought through them. I have a reason to do these things that you don't like. You haven't presented me with any solid reasoning against them (or support for your claims).
Homework is being cut back from "too much" which is currently the "standard amount"

Your argument that students would come to your office and be mad is logical fallacy. It doesn't matter how many there or that they are mad both a fallacies and miss the point of what is right.

Homework is PRACTICE. It should not be included in the final grade, nor should it be mandatory in any way. When you say students will be mad it is because they want to produce less results and get a better reward. Obviously when you say produce better results and get less reward your going to have people that are mad.

Let me ask you this, should we count batting practice as part of a baseball game? The answer is No and I'm pretty sure every other situation where you can ask where practice is involved it is not counted as the result, because to do so is just plain silly. that's why we call it practice in the first place.

Durakken
2009-Oct-28, 05:47 AM
But which English? The one with spelling, punctuation or grammar or the miserable txtspk trash you see on the internet these days?

The educational system is there to make it possible for every child, in spite of social background, to be brought up to the level where they have the skills and knowledge to step further up on their own.
That's what you're arguing for tearing down, apparently because you'd be capable of providing that first step to your own children, and to damnation with those who don't have that privilege.

Your way would generate a two-class system of lower-class children with no knowledge and no idea that knowledge has merit vs. the uppe-class children of motivated educated parents.
That you're one of the motivated educated people who'd end up with an upper-class child capable of reading does not make abandoning the others to their fate right.

Because we don't have already have an upper and lower class?

HenrikOlsen
2009-Oct-28, 05:50 AM
Is having it already argument enough for pushing the lower class even further down?

Durakken
2009-Oct-28, 07:56 AM
Is having it already argument enough for pushing the lower class even further down?

That's another false assumption. It's not really a lower class and higher class but rather 2 ignored groups and mediocrity.

The system that we currently have would have a 66+% in the lower class and 33% in the mediocrity class... and maybe 1% meeting their full potential.

A system more like what I propose would make that 33% stay where they are or grow, another 33% would be raised into the mediocrity group or above and and the last 34% or more would be raised to an upper class and meeting their full potential.

So what your doing is growing those groups that are in the lower class right now and by shear fact that those lower class people will raise up enough to become the middle class or better the middle class seems to have gotten lower but it is actually not diminished and the people meeting their potential allows even more growth for those in all groups.

Those who are against this type of thing are for holding 66+% of people down. You wouldn't say that, but that is what it means when you discount those people who are not average.

danscope
2009-Oct-28, 04:38 PM
It appears that you discount education And 'proof reading' .
My own counsel will I keep on education.

Tobin Dax
2009-Oct-28, 05:56 PM
Homework is being cut back from "too much" which is currently the "standard amount"

Your argument that students would come to your office and be mad is logical fallacy. It doesn't matter how many there or that they are mad both a fallacies and miss the point of what is right.

Homework is PRACTICE. It should not be included in the final grade, nor should it be mandatory in any way. When you say students will be mad it is because they want to produce less results and get a better reward. Obviously when you say produce better results and get less reward your going to have people that are mad.

Let me ask you this, should we count batting practice as part of a baseball game? The answer is No and I'm pretty sure every other situation where you can ask where practice is involved it is not counted as the result, because to do so is just plain silly. that's why we call it practice in the first place.
Why do we even have baseball games? The games are just practicing to get to the World Series, but only the Series is important. The MLB wastes months of time building up to the ultimate assessment.

If I get time tonight, I'll address your reply more thoroughly.

Durakken
2009-Oct-28, 07:03 PM
danscope... Another fallacy. Keep trying.

Tobin Dax... The games are not practice. Nice try, but wrong.

Ara Pacis
2009-Oct-31, 05:54 AM
Aren't most of the CTers and ATMers self-taught in their claimed discipline?

'nuf said.

Tobin Dax
2009-Oct-31, 07:27 AM
Aren't most of the CTers and ATMers self-taught in their claimed discipline?

'nuf said.
But they're not 5-year-olds. 5-year-olds will teach themselves better. :whistle:

mugaliens
2009-Oct-31, 08:41 AM
However, for those cases where there is active parental engagement, it could work.

No "could" about it - it does work. Has worked - for decades.


In that model, its not a far leap from homeschooling, which while raising eyebrows for the various reasons parents look into it, is an accepted model of primary education.

And exceptionally effective, despite the naysaying educational elitists who constantly forget (possibly ignore) the fact that the home schooling packages, like the online courses, were developed by educators.

I'm not countering your comments, Doodler - they were good. Merely using them as a springboard.

Oh, uh... here (http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/web/home/home/index.htm)and here (http://www.open.ac.uk/). :)

Unless you want to argue that MIT or the UK's 40-year-old (and proven) open education/distance learning programs are somehow "unqualified" or lesser qualified than your average elementary school teacher....

danscope
2009-Oct-31, 06:26 PM
Hi Mugs, In your zeal to promote home schooling via the internet, aren't we
producing social recluses, automatons, good for the assembly line and nothing else? How do you give a person their childhood back? And you will replace their entire childhood social interaction with "grand theft auto"
and 1984?
I don't see this as a worthy ambition.
It remains as a compromised solution to education for those who are plagued with severe isolation.....Alaskan wilderness ( wind powered electric,
with a satelite downlink chaser I suppose) the Shetland Isles etc.
For a nation? No.
Best regards,

Dan

Durakken
2009-Oct-31, 11:28 PM
apparently you think self motivated people are recluses...

Tobin Dax
2009-Nov-01, 01:08 AM
apparently you think self motivated people are recluses...
That's not what danscope said.

To further our earlier discussion, Durakken, please define the following terms for me. (I responded too quickly earlier, and I would like to start on the same wavelength when I next continue the discussion.)
Homework
Assessment
Exam