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01101001
2009-Nov-09, 02:31 PM
Darn it. NASA has to spend real money refuting this nonsense instead of doing spaceflight.

NASA Frequently Asked Questions: 2012: Beginning of the End or Why the World Won't End? (http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/2012.html)


Remember the Y2K scare? It came and went without much of a whimper because of adequate planning and analysis of the situation. Impressive movie special effects aside, Dec. 21, 2012, won't be the end of the world as we know. It will, however, be another winter solstice.

Much like Y2K, 2012 has been analyzed and the science of the end of the Earth thoroughly studied. Contrary to some of the common beliefs out there, the science behind the end of the world quickly unravels when pinned down to the 2012 timeline. Below, NASA Scientists answer several questions that we're frequently asked regarding 2012.

Question (Q): Are there any threats to the Earth in 2012? Many Internet websites say the world will end in December 2012.
Answer (A): Nothing bad will happen to the Earth in 2012. Our planet has been getting along just fine for more than 4 billion years, and credible scientists worldwide know of no threat associated with 2012.

And so on.


Q: What is the origin of the prediction that the world will end in 2012?
Q: Does the Mayan calendar end in December 2012?
Q: Could a phenomena occur where planets align in a way that impacts Earth?
Q: Is there a planet or brown dwarf called Nibiru or Planet X or Eris that is approaching the Earth and threatening our planet with widespread destruction?
Q: What is the polar shift theory? Is it true that the earth’s crust does a 180-degree rotation around the core in a matter of days if not hours?
Q: Is the Earth in danger of being hit by a meteor in 2012?
Q: How do NASA scientists feel about claims of pending doomsday?

See the answers there.

Oh, the last Q&A is too good too pithy not to quote:


Q: How do NASA scientists feel about claims of pending doomsday?
A: For any claims of disaster or dramatic changes in 2012, where is the science? Where is the evidence? There is none, and for all the fictional assertions, whether they are made in books, movies, documentaries or over the Internet, we cannot change that simple fact. There is no credible evidence for any of the assertions made in support of unusual events taking place in December 2012.

===

Edit:

This wasn't meant to be a topic hosting claims of unsupportable predictions for 2012, but it has been latched onto by some fans of misinformation. So, I'll take this second opportunity to enhance the topic with some valuable information up front.

Here are some articles about the many aspects of the year 2012 predictions, and a long, long list of some BAUT Forum topics that have addressed the topic:


Universe Today: No Doomsday in 2012 (http://www.universetoday.com/2008/05/19/no-doomsday-in-2012/)
Bad Astronomy Blog: 2012, the year nothing will happen (http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/05/19/2012-the-year-nothing-will-happen/)
Universe Today: 2012: No Planet X (http://www.universetoday.com/2008/05/25/2012-no-planet-x/)
Universe Today: 2012: Planet X is not Nibiru (http://www.universetoday.com/2008/06/19/2012-planet-x-is-not-nibiru/)
Universe Today: 2012: No Killer Solar Flare (http://www.universetoday.com/2008/06/21/2012-no-killer-solar-flare/)
Universe Today: 2012: No Geomagnetic Reversal (http://www.universetoday.com/2008/10/03/2012-no-geomagnetic-reversal/)
Universe Today: 2012: No Comet (http://www.universetoday.com/2008/12/21/2012-no-comet/)
Universe Today: Another Voice Against 2012 Mania (http://www.universetoday.com/2009/02/15/another-voice-against-2012-mania/)
Universe Today: 2012: Combat the Nonsense (http://www.universetoday.com/2009/10/14/2012-combat-the-nonsense/)
Astronomical Society of the Pacific: Doomsday 2012, the Planet Nibiru, and Cosmophobia (http://www.astrosociety.org/2012/ab2009-32.pdf) (PDF)
Discovery News: Top 10 Reasons Why the World Won't End in 2012 (http://news.discovery.com/space/ray-villard-doomsday-theories.html)
NASA FAQ: 2012: Beginning of the End or Why the World Won't End? (http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/2012.html)



2003 no, 2012 si (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=03179)
2012 (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=03181)
End of Mayan Calendar (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=04509)
Pole shift / Planetary alignment 2012? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=07145)
2012 alignment question (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=09421)
about the Mayan 2012 item (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=10214)
2012 Debunking? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=10724)
Possible asteroid impact in 2012? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=10924)
2012 asteroid? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=13592)
We don't have to worry about 2012! (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=16490)
More on 2012 from India Daily (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=16709)
2012 Completion of conspiracy? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=17667)
Here's what's REALLY going to happen in 2012... (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=18322)
crop circles, Planet X and 2012 (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=18375)
Planet X, crop circles and 2012 cataclysma (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=18378)
According to the Mayans, what will happen on 23rd Dec. 2012? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=18757)
More 2012 Nonsense (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=19201)
NEO 2012? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=20191)
Dangerous NEO in 2012? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=20539)
Christmas 2012 (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=23941)
2012 mayan calender end of world (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=30892)
Regarding the supposed polar shift/new ice age in 2012 (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=31452)
New 2012 threat? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=32413)
2012 look at this thing on the sun (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=35462)
Russian Expert Predicts Global Cooling from 2012 (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=38978)
Pole shift idea origins (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=43775)
Dec 20 2012 (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=46117)
2012 Stuff (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=51021)
No reply previous question (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=52297)
Horizon Project-New End of World Scare? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=53788)
Date: December 21st 2012 (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=53831)
Earth passing thru Galactic center in 2012 - didn't that already happen? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=53904)
2012: What do you think well happen (if anything) (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=53924)
So what will we see in 2012? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=54404)
Galactic Tsunami? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=54418)
Plane of the ecliptic of the galaxy? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=55312)
Earth's Magnetic Field & 2012 (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=55386)
2012? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=56513)
Any truth to this? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=58039)
How can the sun be aligned with Galactic centre? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=63109)
the whole 2012 poles flip nonsense (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=63449)
Planet X Official Advertisement (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=65831)
What year are we in (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=66055)
Quick question about the sun (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=66221)
Galactic Alignment (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=66414)
Books of 2012! - (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=67663)
2007 = 2012 (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=67908)
Return of Planet X By Rand (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=67948)
Don Alejandro - Mayan Elder. (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=67954)
Toutatis 4179: 2012? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=68472)
Galactic Alignment in 2012 ? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=68661)
Solar Storms (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=68907)
A real prediction! (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=69448)
NIBURU - Brown Dwarf, The DESTROYER (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=70163)
2012 Galactic Alignment (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=70260)
Not 2012 again! But I cant help it~ (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=70438)
New evidence for 2012 TEOTWAWKI!!! (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=70795)
this may be a silly question but... (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=71061)
Just to know if this is true (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=71216)
Just Wondering... (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=71633)
Planet X/Nibiru, is it real? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=72398)
Youv heard this a million times. (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=72777)
Nibaru or Planet X (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=73180)
Mayan calendar (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=73414)
2012 Article? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=73492)
can i say something please on planet x (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=73579)
Nibiru (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=73654)
The growing earth.... :P (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=74164)
Our Solar System's Eclipse of the Galactic Plane on Dec 21, 2012? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=74615)
Something scaring the hell out of me.... (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=74881)
It's Only the end of the World AGAIN!!! (Woo Woo Alert) (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=76346)
2021 Doomsday (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=77802)
is it just me or is the milky way brighter..? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=77955)
Polar Shift in 2012? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=78219)
I would like to ask about Nubiru stuff... (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=78719)
Bit behind the times, my appologies... (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=78966)
the "pole shift thing" (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=79146)
All the Truth about 2012 (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=79425)
Confused about 2012 (yes, another one!) (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=79817)
Another paranoia mind due to 2012 (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=80144)
novelty theory (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=80949)
Possibility of Pole Shift (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=81227)
2012 Vectors (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=81304)
Nibiru Question (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=81363)
Odd things floating on google sky (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=82312)
2012 end of the world? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=86195)
2012 and Solar Storms? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=87388)
Nibiru (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=88006)
Sun polar shift weirdness. (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=89521)
Question? [2012] (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=89525)
December 21st 2012 (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=91235)
2012 is giving me a Headache (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=92214)
UN Agenda 21 and the coming pole reversal scare (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=92451)
Space storm alert: 90 seconds from catastrophe (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=93709)
Is there even something to this? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=94538)
We're not the only ones fighting 2012 nonsense (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=94834)
True or not? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=96183)
NASA FAQ: 2012: [...] Why the World Won't End? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=96274)

TheOneYouSeek
2009-Nov-09, 03:19 PM
I think that this one will be the first of many, now whit the movie fueling the whole thing up will just make 1.00000 more people scared and some of them I think will just go out to youtube and type in ''2012 end of the world'' and get the list of nonsense up to scare them even more. :(

I feel sorry for NASA.

Sporally
2009-Nov-09, 05:01 PM
If you ask my friends, they will all say i'm not religious or believe in anything else than what is scientifically proven. However, from what i've heard, the Mayans have pridicted december 21th 2012 as the day Earth seizes to exist, and if i remember it correctly, i guess Nostradamus also predicted this date. However, from the link you provided 01101001, i guess it was the Sumerians who made this prediction, if not all three of them.

Is the mayan prediction nothing but the end of a calender?

As far as i know, the origin of the prediction was more than this - which i must say doesn't worry me at all if there is nothing else in it.


Q: What is the origin of the prediction that the world will end in 2012?
A: The story started with claims that Nibiru, a supposed planet discovered by the Sumerians, is headed toward Earth. This catastrophe was initially predicted for May 2003, but when nothing happened the doomsday date was moved forward to December 2012. Then these two fables were linked to the end of one of the cycles in the ancient Mayan calendar at the winter solstice in 2012 -- hence the predicted doomsday date of December 21, 2012.

If in case several famous people have prediction 2012 as the end of the world, could there actually be some scientifically explanation to this? One of the most reasonable solutions to this could be that the Sumerians, Mayans and Nostradamus were actually better informed than what we know of today. Sometimes we seem to underestimate history and science back then, just because we don't see abundant information stating the truth. For instance, 100 years ago everybody just knew Columbus was the first european in america - now we know he was the informer of the existance of the new world that encouraged europeans to go there. But it was in fact the vikings who first found it, if not somebody else.

My point on this is that maybe all of these three 'groups' have seen an astroid several times, used more skilled mathematics/astronomy than we knew they could handle, and found the same day/year for the year of collision with Earth.

As you probably have read, we stille lack to discover around 10-20% af all PHAs, maybe this astroid is one of them.

What do you think - PLAUSIBLE?

CJSF
2009-Nov-09, 05:16 PM
NOT PLAUSIBLE. Anything large enough to "end the world" would HAVE to have been noticed a long time ago, either via its effects on planets' orbits or by visual evidence.

For what it's worth, I remember some sort of Time-Life book commercial years and years ago (decades even?) that mentioned the Mayan "end of the world" prediction. This was way before any of the Planet X/"Nibiru" nonsense of 2003. I don't know where the notion of any end of the world "prophecy" from the Mayans came from. I always thought it was someone saying, "Hey, their calander ENDS on Dec 21, 2012, and there's NO NEW CALENDER, zOMG!" and interpreted it as the Mayans somehow "knowing" time would end.

CJSF

Daggerstab
2009-Nov-09, 05:24 PM
http://2012hoax.org

The problem is that by trying to refute as many claims about 2012 as possible, NASA has created a mess that is easy to misunderstand.

Nibiru was originally the name Zecharia Sitchin used for a tenth planet that was supposedly known to the Ancient Sumerians. He did not say anything about a collision.

Then there was the Planet X craze in 2003 - the old Bad Astronomy site has a page about it:
http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/misc/planetx/index.html
They picked Sitchin's name and ran with it.

When the end of the world didn't came in 2003, they tied it with another claim that had run for some time then - the end of the longest cycle of the Mayan calendar in 2012. Originally, it wasn't about a doomsday event, but a New Age claim about "a new age of consciousness", like the Age of the Aquarius.

Nostradamus gets thrown in with the lot to give more weight. AFAIK, he hasn't predicted anything about 2012. As you may know, most of his "prophecies" are very unclear and everyone can interpret them in the way they want.

Strange
2009-Nov-09, 05:25 PM
If you ask my friends, they will all say i'm not religious

Superstitious maybe? Gullible, even? (I hope that isn't considered ad hominem)


However, from what i've heard, the Mayans have pridicted december 21th 2012 as the day Earth seizes to exist

No. Some interpretations suggest their calendar would run out some time around there. So what, they would start another calendar. Other interpretations are that their calendar continues for billions of years.


i guess Nostradamus also predicted this date

No. Nostradamus didn't predict anything. Some people have "postdicted" stuff based on his vague words.


PLAUSIBLE?

No.

Jim
2009-Nov-09, 06:04 PM
I object to NASA comparing 2012 to Y2k. That trivializes Y2k.

Daggerstab
2009-Nov-09, 06:19 PM
I object to NASA comparing 2012 to Y2k. That trivializes Y2k.

Actually, NASA's text has been the most non-trivializing treatment of the Y2K bug I've seen for the last month or so. Most people seem to lump the computer stuff together with the apocalyptic, end-of-the-millennium stuff, and dismiss both.


It came and went without much of a whimper because of adequate planning and analysis of the situation.

TheOneYouSeek
2009-Nov-09, 06:44 PM
Here are the conclusion's from the site www.2012hoax.org


''We have shown that Nostradamus makes no specific prediction for an apocalyptic event in 2012, and that the quatrains of Nostradamus are so vague and ambiguous that they require extensive subjective interpretation, which allows nearly any event to be assigned to one or more of the quatrains, making them useless as "predictions".''

Read the article here http://www.2012hoax.org/nostradamus


The Mayan's

''In conclusion; We have shown that the majority of Mayanist scholars ( as opposed to proponents of Mayanism and the 2012 doomsday ) do not think that the 2012 date relates to a prediction of an apocalypse.''

The article is here http://www.2012hoax.org/mayan-prediction

And for the sumerians I could'nt find a article for but I am pretty sure that they did'nt have a prediction but that Zecharia Sitchin got the whole thing wrong.

Nibiru is not real..


And the conclusion about the whole thing.


''The "2012 doomsday" is a hoax, a fraud, and a con job. It is a cruel and cynical lie being promoted by scammers after money: First they scare people to death that something terrible is going to happen, then they publish books and videos on "how to survive".

These scammers want to sell their books, videos, 'survival kits', and spaces in non-existent "2012 shelters" in Antarctica (although Nancy Lieder has the right idea, and is claiming Hawaii is a 'safe zone'). They also want to divert attention from the fact that they have been wrong so many times before. It's also being pushed by people who are promoting a Hollywood disaster movie due out later this year.

All of the claims of 'predictions' by the Maya, the Aztecs, the Incas, the Hopi, the Chinese (I Ching), Nostradamus, Sir Isaac Newton, Edgar Cayce, Mother Shipton are false: They did not make the claimed predictions. Predictions by others such as José Argüelles, Terrence McKenna, Nancy Leider, Mark Hazelwood and others are contrived pseudo-scientific nonsense.

There will be no sudden 'pole shift', either geographic or magnetic. There will be no 'killer solar flares'. There is no 'Photon Belt'. These are fiction. There will be no 'galactic alignment' or 'planetary alignment' of any kind, and we will not pass through the central plane of the galaxy, and even if these events were to occur, they would not cause any problems for us.''

coreybv
2009-Nov-09, 06:50 PM
They've got the date wrong. Time comes to an end at midnight, December 31st of this year.

This is clear, since the calendar I got from my credit union didn't even bother to include January 1st. Maybe NASA needs to call up one of the tellers at my credit union so they can get their facts in order.

:lol:

TheOneYouSeek
2009-Nov-09, 06:54 PM
They've got the date wrong. Time comes to an end at midnight, December 31st of this year.

This is clear, since the calendar I got from my credit union didn't even bother to include January 1st. Maybe NASA needs to call up one of the tellers at my credit union so they can get their facts in order.

:lol:

OMG! That must be it, I must call NASA now!!!:cry:

01101001
2009-Nov-10, 04:18 AM
If in case several famous people have prediction 2012 as the end of the world, could there actually be some scientifically explanation to this?

Delusion. Greed. Sadism.

Spoons
2009-Nov-10, 04:46 AM
I was putting together a spreadsheet the other day to track my kilometres for work, and I thought I just couldn't be bothered extending the days past 30th June 2010 because it wasn't necessary at the time.

Now I realise it must be because that is the world's end-date.

It's all so clear. I'm precognitive. Goodbye cruel world!

kucharek
2009-Nov-10, 01:45 PM
It is a sad thing that NASA seems to be so swamped with emails about this issue that they feel the need to set up this page.

NEOWatcher
2009-Nov-10, 02:08 PM
It is a sad thing that NASA seems to be so swamped with emails about this issue that they feel the need to set up this page.
I have mixed feelings about that.

It's bad to see the gullibility of so many.

It's good that so many people are going to a valid source of information to get educated on the issue. (at least they aren't turning to Youtube)

Spoons
2009-Nov-10, 02:22 PM
I've seen huge numbers of foolish people on facebook asking each other why we are all going to die on the 20th of Dec 2012. Seems they can't even get the date right to the rubbish story.

Still, that place is a breeding ground for low intelligence.

AlexInOklahoma
2009-Nov-10, 04:27 PM
I have mixed feelings about that.

It's bad to see the gullibility of so many.

It's good that so many people are going to a valid source of information to get educated on the issue. (at least they aren't turning to Youtube)

I agree that its good to see folks looking for credible answers, per se. Hopefully, NASA spends only the most minimal amount of time/money on this so as to engage the issue truthfully, and yet not cause another issue unto itself for any such 'Hoax Believers' to latch onto and run with... If NASA is going to keep going with its 'public affairs movement', I guess this is part of what they gotta do (unfortunately). At least the aspects of it related to 'space' anyways...

Alex

LaurelHS
2009-Nov-10, 05:37 PM
I've seen huge numbers of foolish people on facebook asking each other why we are all going to die on the 20th of Dec 2012. Seems they can't even get the date right to the rubbish story.

Still, that place is a breeding ground for low intelligence.
I've seen people on Yahoo Answers asking about whether the world will end on the 12th of December 2012. :rolleyes:

realitydesign
2009-Nov-10, 06:59 PM
People misunderstand this, including NASA.

The mayans 2012 end date is the end of a PHASE of existence. Not the physical end of the world.

A new PHASE will begin though, what that will entail is anybody's guess, but it certainly will begin a new phase.


IMO we are likely looking at a DNA upgrade from our galactic supercomputer center(black hole), a higher resolution and a better world.

Grab your sunglasses the photons are coming!
:)

TheOneYouSeek
2009-Nov-10, 07:15 PM
No you have got it all wrong, the mayan's did'nt predict anything 2012.

For example John Major Jenkins that is an expert on mayan's says that they didnt predict anything here is a qoute from him.

"The trendy doomsday people… should be treated for what they are: under-informed opportunists and alarmists who will move onto other things in 2013,"


And may I ask, do you have any evidence for what you are saying?

Strange
2009-Nov-10, 07:16 PM
A new PHASE will begin though, what that will entail is anybody's guess, but it certainly will begin a new phase.

I suspect this will be like all the other "great events" - the dawning of the age of aquarius, the millennium, and whatever other arbitrary dates various cults and new age cranks have predicted over the centuries.

Garrison
2009-Nov-10, 07:18 PM
People misunderstand this, including NASA.

The mayans 2012 end date is the end of a PHASE of existence. Not the physical end of the world.

A new PHASE will begin though, what that will entail is anybody's guess, but it certainly will begin a new phase.


IMO we are likely looking at a DNA upgrade from our galactic supercomputer center(black hole), a higher resolution and a better world.

Grab your sunglasses the photons are coming!
:)

The end of the Mayan calendar is no more meaningful that December 31st on our calendar, or are you going to crawl into a bunker then as well?

realitydesign
2009-Nov-10, 07:23 PM
The end of the Mayan calendar is no more meaningful that December 31st on our calendar, or are you going to crawl into a bunker then as well?

As you may have noticed I just said there will be no end of the world so therefore no crawling and no bunkers!
:)

TheOneYouSeek
2009-Nov-10, 07:38 PM
Well it aint going to be a ''new phase'' either.

Oh wait it is, people will have learned not to belive these crazy stories.

Garrison
2009-Nov-10, 07:41 PM
As you may have noticed I just said there will be no end of the world so therefore no crawling and no bunkers!
:)

My mistake, you have a whole different brand of unscientific, unsupported, nonsense to peddle.

Strange
2009-Nov-10, 08:11 PM
As you may have noticed I just said there will be no end of the world so therefore no crawling and no bunkers!
:)

The point remains, why would you think the end of their calendar is any more significant than the end of ours?


IMO we are likely looking at a DNA upgrade from our galactic supercomputer center(black hole), a higher resolution and a better world.

Does that even mean anything? And why would you think it (as in, what evidence do you have)?

chrlzs
2009-Nov-10, 08:27 PM
People misunderstand this, including NASA.

The mayans 2012 end date is the end of a PHASE of existence. Not the physical end of the world.

A new PHASE will begin though, what that will entail is anybody's guess, but it certainly will begin a new phase.


IMO we are likely looking at a DNA upgrade from our galactic supercomputer center(black hole), a higher resolution and a better world.

Grab your sunglasses the photons are coming!
:)

Can you show me where the Mayans predicted their own civilisation's rapid decline, and how that tied in with their calendar system? What do you make of that, RD?

And where, in accepted and clear translation, is this 'phase' thing defined? Is it the same 'phase' we go through as every printed calendar 'ends' on the arbitrary date chosen by the printer (or by the computer operating system designers eg 2000, 2038, ...)?


Anybody's guess? My quite well-informed (imnsho) 'guess' is that nothing whatsoever is going to happen as a result of foolishly flawed, misinterpreted and very likely deliberately made up 'information'.

I don't see any recognised Mayan experts selling 2012 books and videos, let alone agreeing with these ridiculous interpretations, and that is a pretty good guide, I think.


Just as a side issue, when did the 2012 thing first surface? - does anyone know how long this has been around and who was first to come up with the end-of-civilisation idea?

CJSF
2009-Nov-10, 08:41 PM
Like I said earlier, I remember seeing it in a Time-Life book series commercial, when I was young, on TV. Maybe 20 or more years ago.

CJSF

Paul Beardsley
2009-Nov-10, 08:49 PM
Well it aint going to be a ''new phase'' either.

Oh wait it is, people will have learned not to belive these crazy stories.

Wow, your optimism is even more far-fetched than the stories of doomsayers! ;)

Paul Beardsley
2009-Nov-10, 08:57 PM
People misunderstand this, including NASA.

The mayans 2012 end date is the end of a PHASE of existence. Not the physical end of the world.

A new PHASE will begin though, what that will entail is anybody's guess, but it certainly will begin a new phase.


IMO we are likely looking at a DNA upgrade from our galactic supercomputer center(black hole), a higher resolution and a better world.

Grab your sunglasses the photons are coming!
:)

Just in case you're not joking, do be aware that regular BAUTers will recognise this for the unimaginative garbage that it is.

(You are joking, aren't you?)

KaiYeves
2009-Nov-10, 09:29 PM
I really feel glad that NASA took the time to do this, it may be of help to many confused people.

slang
2009-Nov-10, 11:10 PM
Wow, your optimism is even more far-fetched than the stories of doomsayers! ;)

Who cares! It's Pascal's Wager in reverse! Celebrate. :)

Oh well, now NASA answered all the questions, it's settled. No 105 links in the linkfarm. Everyone is well informed now! *wanders off giggling*

Spoons
2009-Nov-11, 12:25 AM
The website is a hoax because there are converging shadows pointing to a SBT. Castro is behind it all.

There - NASA explanations negated. It's that easy. ;)

tsig
2009-Nov-11, 03:31 AM
If you ask my friends, they will all say i'm not religious or believe in anything else than what is scientifically proven. However, from what i've heard, the Mayans have pridicted december 21th 2012 as the day Earth seizes to exist, and if i remember it correctly, i guess Nostradamus also predicted this date. However, from the link you provided 01101001, i guess it was the Sumerians who made this prediction, if not all three of them.

Is the mayan prediction nothing but the end of a calender?

As far as i know, the origin of the prediction was more than this - which i must say doesn't worry me at all if there is nothing else in it.



If in case several famous people have prediction 2012 as the end of the world, could there actually be some scientifically explanation to this? One of the most reasonable solutions to this could be that the Sumerians, Mayans and Nostradamus were actually better informed than what we know of today. Sometimes we seem to underestimate history and science back then, just because we don't see abundant information stating the truth. For instance, 100 years ago everybody just knew Columbus was the first european in america - now we know he was the informer of the existance of the new world that encouraged europeans to go there. But it was in fact the vikings who first found it, if not somebody else.

My point on this is that maybe all of these three 'groups' have seen an astroid several times, used more skilled mathematics/astronomy than we knew they could handle, and found the same day/year for the year of collision with Earth.

As you probably have read, we stille lack to discover around 10-20% af all PHAs, maybe this astroid is one of them.

What do you think - PLAUSIBLE?

Since calendars were invented by humans I can't think why some arbitrary collection of numbers would have any real world consequences.

Glom
2009-Nov-11, 02:02 PM
People misunderstand this, including NASA.

The mayans 2012 end date is the end of a PHASE of existence. Not the physical end of the world.

A new PHASE will begin though, what that will entail is anybody's guess, but it certainly will begin a new phase.


IMO we are likely looking at a DNA upgrade from our galactic supercomputer center(black hole), a higher resolution and a better world.

Grab your sunglasses the photons are coming!
:)

Maybe it's the invention of AI.

Dun-dun dun dun-dun.
Dun-dun dun dun-dun.

JimTKirk
2009-Nov-11, 04:44 PM
It amazes me how people point to a calendar for the Mayans. They had nothing in their calendar to point to the demise of their own civilization. Also, there was so much of the Mayan documentation that was burned as heathen worship text, we still aren't sure whether we know all about their calendar or not.

Sporally
2009-Nov-12, 04:58 PM
Superstitious maybe? Gullible, even? (I hope that isn't considered ad hominem)

No. Some interpretations suggest their calendar would run out some time around there. So what, they would start another calendar. Other interpretations are that their calendar continues for billions of years.

No. Nostradamus didn't predict anything. Some people have "postdicted" stuff based on his vague words.

Forgot to say my friends don't consider me religious or 'superstitious', but that was what i meant.

Oh yes, forgot everything about the calendar thing, but then it is end of discussion for me, i just thought it was a real prediction.

Hum, how can people predict a date that Nostradamus doesn't even say? Sounds a bit strange, but if no one else have made a prediction about december 21th 2012, except the end of the Mayan calendar, then there's no worry from me - just wanted to know if there in one way or another could be anything scientific in it.


I suspect this will be like all the other "great events" - the dawning of the age of aquarius, the millennium, and whatever other arbitrary dates various cults and new age cranks have predicted over the centuries.
What is the age of aquarius?

Strange
2009-Nov-12, 05:07 PM
What is the age of aquarius?

Something that didn't happen back in the '60s (or '70s?) - even before my time...

Gillianren
2009-Nov-12, 05:57 PM
Hum, how can people predict a date that Nostradamus doesn't even say?

Have you actually read Nostradamus? You can take what he "predicted" and say it refers to just about anything. However, for reasons I do not understand, he has a lot of weight in some circles.

Spoons
2009-Nov-12, 10:09 PM
He predicted my morning exactly!

On the fifth day one shall rise,
Caked in grey, with cocoa pops,
Safari is his tool of trade,
An absence from work beckons.


Sometimes his quatrains are quoted incorrectly too.

ETA: I was listening to some Coast to Coast show the other day, purely for a little humorous detachment from reality (or car crash sort of fascination) and someone claimed that he refered to 9/11 '01. When questioned on it, they claimed it was codified within the date 1999 (and I'm not sure whether that number was used anyway). They said that in order to be deeper he reversed the numbers - change all 1's to 9's, and all 9's to 1's. 9111.

9/11 '1.

Remarkable!

Sorry for using that example, let's not discuss that incident, it was just a great example of the rubbish manipulation required to retrofit their ideas into past writings.

Nowhere Man
2009-Nov-12, 11:09 PM
On the fifth day one shall rise,
Caked in grey, with cocoa pops,
Safari is his tool of trade,
An absence from work beckons.
Sounds like me with a hangover. Except I don't drink. Or eat cocoa pops for breakfast. Or use Safari. But I do have a few gray hairs, and I am taking Friday off! The man is a genius! :razz:

Fred

Spoons
2009-Nov-12, 11:12 PM
If anything in there isn't directly applicable to your good self on this fine day, then you're clearly just not trying hard enough.

TRY HARDER!

slang
2009-Nov-12, 11:31 PM
[...]But I do have a few gray hairs, and I am taking Friday off!

Me too! 3 for 3, excellent score.


The man is a genius! :razz:

Absolutely. He just hasn't come around to predicting me taking off monday too ;p

Spoons
2009-Nov-12, 11:39 PM
Oh, I also am taking Monday off. (4 day weekend! Whoooohoo!)

I was going to work that into... I mean, I was expecting to find that in the next quatrain.

Skyfire
2009-Nov-12, 11:48 PM
On the fifth day one shall rise,
Caked in grey, with cocoa pops,
Safari is his tool of trade,
An absence from work beckons.



WOW! He IS good! He was able to predict there would be cocoa pops!!!

:)

Spoons
2009-Nov-12, 11:53 PM
I believe Edgar Cayce saw Pop Tarts in a vision several years before the whole Atlanta thing.

Atlanta - as if there was ever such a place!

grox
2009-Nov-13, 02:40 AM
we are not and never have been part of the milky way galaxy. we are a small tiny galaxy that is at this moment being gobbled up by the milky way galaxy.
we spin one way iit spins another and we are merging . that right there means somthings going to change.

we will allighn with the center of the milky way not our own galaxy as we have for 14 billion years that in itself is a huge change.

planet x , niburu is not named plant x or niburu by nasa

its named sedna google sedna and nasa reports it shows its on an eliptical; orbit and has moved over 10 mill lyrs closer since first seen by nasa from the other side of the galaxy.


sedna is the name of a moon to niburu given to it by the sumarians


end of the staement.

would nasa realy tell us? why? who are we to be told? we are ruled by goverments, nasa doesnt go to reporters to the public when it recieves new info


why has norway just built a undergropund shelter large enough to keep its whole population , china has built some north korea has been building them for years russia has one big enough for almost 60 k ppl.

i see an awfull long list of intelligent ppl doing more than penning 200 words and thinkig it will debuk everything and i sont see any nasa logo or anything .


no facts no figure nothing but a few words saying dont worry?


http://www.nasa.gov/vision/universe/solarsystem/planet_like_body.html

that link is to a nasa related story showing sedna a planet on its way.that has more facts and figures than the ops post which should we believe?a guy saying nasa said its all ok? with no nasa proof? or nasa's own proof somthing is on the way?

THETULLSTER
2009-Nov-13, 04:27 AM
Why in the hell are skeptics on here to criticize all these theories.....isn't this what this place is about....

JayUtah
2009-Nov-13, 05:24 AM
Why in the hell are skeptics on here to criticize all these theories.....isn't this what this place is about....

That's exactly what this place is about.

Spoons
2009-Nov-13, 07:23 AM
its named sedna google sedna and nasa reports it shows its on an eliptical; orbit and has moved over 10 mill lyrs closer since first seen by nasa from the other side of the galaxy.
How long ago did NASA see it? Even if it was 50 years ago, it moved 10mill lightyears closer in that time? So if we were both moving towards each other that'd be 5mill lyrs each in 50 years, or 100,000lyrs movement per year.

Light can't travel that fast, it maxes out at 1 lightyear per year - that's the definition of a lightyear, so how do we move 100,000 times faster than it?

It doesn't make sense to me. What am I missing here?

ZappBrannigan
2009-Nov-13, 07:31 AM
So, THETULLSTER, you say in another thread that you're in college. You kind of imply you're a freshman. Since the end of the world is only 3 years away, and there's absolutely nothing you can do about it and no way you're going to survive, why are you wasting your time in school? Why aren't you out experiencing everything you can in your short time left?

GROX, same question. You say you're 14. What do your parents think? Are they convinced you'll be dead before you finish high school?

Do either of you honestly believe the hysterics you're spouting?

grox
2009-Nov-13, 02:33 PM
How long ago did NASA see it? Even if it was 50 years ago, it moved 10mill lightyears closer in that time? So if we were both moving towards each other that'd be 5mill lyrs each in 50 years, or 100,000lyrs movement per year.

Light can't travel that fast, it maxes out at 1 lightyear per year - that's the definition of a lightyear, so how do we move 100,000 times faster than it?

It doesn't make sense to me. What am I missing here?


about 8 years ago , it speeds up as the eliptical orbit nears our sun . as it gets closer the gravity etc makes it move faster, its a dwarf from cold side of space as it enters our solar system it will ignite and then bee seen as a second sun which if never even came close to us but ppl could see would throw our world into p[anic.

http://www.nasa.gov/vision/universe/solarsystem/planet_like_body.html

that nasa link says it was found in 2004

Nick Theodorakis
2009-Nov-13, 02:59 PM
about 8 years ago , it speeds up as the eliptical orbit nears our sun . as it gets closer the gravity etc makes it move faster, its a dwarf from cold side of space as it enters our solar system it will ignite and then bee seen as a second sun which if never even came close to us but ppl could see would throw our world into p[anic.

http://www.nasa.gov/vision/universe/solarsystem/planet_like_body.html

that nasa link says it was found in 2004

Did you miss the part in which is was explained that Sedna will never get closer to us than a few billion miles? Here's the wiki article on Sedna (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/90377_Sedna), which has a pretty decent summary.

Nick

tusenfem
2009-Nov-13, 03:02 PM
dear grox

you really should not believe what Nancy Lieder is telling you.
You come up with almost the exact same drivel as we went through in 2002 when supposedly this object would fly by the Earth (after it had hidden itself a few times behind the sun) and from magnetic forces alone would flip the Earth around, even stop it in its orbit, yadayadayada


"from cold side of space" -- that as in contrast to the sunny beaches of Regulus IV?
"enters our solar system" -- it is PART of our solar system, so it needs not enter, it is "now' (4 years ago) 13 billion km from the Earth and at its furthest it is 130 billion km away, with a period of ~10500 years, I will let you calculate the closest it gets to the sun by yourself.
"it is a dwarf" -- yes it is a dwarf PLANET, it CANNOT ignite, you seem to take Nancy Lieder's belief here that this is somehow a "brown dwarf star" that for some reason suddenly can ignite. Sorry, but this is complete and utter nonsense.

Strange
2009-Nov-13, 03:17 PM
about 8 years ago , it speeds up as the eliptical orbit nears our sun . as it gets closer the gravity etc makes it move faster, its a dwarf from cold side of space as it enters our solar system it will ignite and then bee seen as a second sun which if never even came close to us but ppl could see would throw our world into p[anic.

As the NASA article you didn't read very carefully says, it is a very small cold planet a very very long way away. And it is going to stay a very very long way away.

It is actually even further away than I said in my answer in your other thread. It is currently about 84,000 million miles away. Its closest approach will be in about 72 years when it will still be still be about 70,000 million miles away.

I think that makes it nothing to worry about.

ETA: I think I have got some of those numbers worng but it isn't worth double checking. What is a factor of 10 in the face of all this nonsense!

KaiYeves
2009-Nov-13, 08:04 PM
Sedna is way too small to become a sun.

Orion's Fan
2009-Nov-13, 08:36 PM
Sedna is way too small to become a sun.

Oh, now! What's the lack of a little nuclear fusion to keep it from being a sun? :lol:

coreybv
2009-Nov-13, 08:54 PM
Sedna is way too small to become a sun.

Hey! Don't say that in front of it! You'll ruin its self-esteem.

It's ok Sedna, you can do anything you put your mind to...

captain swoop
2009-Nov-13, 11:17 PM
why has norway just built a undergropund shelter large enough to keep its whole population You actualy think this is true? Where did you get this information?.

Now with my 'Mod' hat Grox. please take some time to read the rules for posting to the board and the advice for posters, both linked at the bottom of this post.

R.A.F.
2009-Nov-13, 11:25 PM
...its a dwarf from cold side of space as it enters our solar system it will ignite and then bee seen as a second sun...

Cold side of space?...what exactly does that mean?

Enters our Solar System?...it could only do that if it were from outside our SS...Sedna is not, it is part of our SS.

seen as a second Sun??....impossible for an object that isn't a very large gas giant to begin with.

cjameshuff
2009-Nov-14, 12:47 AM
seen as a second Sun??....impossible for an object that isn't a very large gas giant to begin with.

Just to stave off misinterpretations...this could be read as saying "impossible for Sedna, which isn't a very large gas giant to begin with". Sedna being a lump of ice and rock <1600 km across, smaller than our own moon, I'm pretty sure RAF means "only possible for an object that's a very large gas giant..."...

And of course, if it were such a borderline planet/star, it would take a bit more than passing through the solar system to turn it into a second sun. We know very well that objects can survive in the inner solar system without being turned into balls of fire by the heat...after all, we're still here...and it isn't coming anywhere near as close to the sun as we are, Sedna at its closest approach remaining further than the furthest planet.

Infinity
2009-Dec-20, 12:16 AM
You just gotta love all these doomsday dates, it just reminds people that even though their life is miserable it doesn't matter because everyone will end up the same way.. geez. I used to be a nut about all this pseudo crap, I'm not anymore thank God. I'm sure this article is seen as a "cover up" to hide something massive that will happen in 2012, which is NOTHING of any significance!!! So, who knows what will be the next doomsday date to look forward to?? Can't wait to see all the books and DVD's they'll be selling on that crap, since 2012 junk "science" books make more sales than many reputable scientists make.

Count Zero
2009-Dec-20, 07:14 AM
I used to be a nut about all this pseudo crap, I'm not anymore thank God.

:eh:

KaiYeves
2009-Dec-20, 04:50 PM
I can sympathise, Infinity.

danscope
2009-Dec-20, 08:54 PM
The world won't end because Chicken Little was just plain misinformed. :)

Count Zero
2009-Dec-21, 02:31 AM
You just gotta love all these doomsday dates...

:lol: I've lost track of the number of "Doomsdays" I've lived through. Let's see, there was 1982, when there was a planet alignment (sort-of), there was one associated with Comet Hale-Bopp IIRC, Y2K, of course, and I think there was another [sort-of] planet alignment in May of 2005. I know I'm missing a bunch. Anyone else?


2012 junk "science" books make more sales than many reputable scientists make.

That is a travesty for those involved, and a tragedy for civilization. :(

glappkaeft
2009-Dec-21, 04:42 AM
:lol: I've lost track of the number of "Doomsdays" I've lived through. Let's see, there was 1982, when there was a planet alignment (sort-of), there was one associated with Comet Hale-Bopp IIRC, Y2K, of course, and I think there was another [sort-of] planet alignment in May of 2005. I know I'm missing a bunch. Anyone else?


For all your doomsday needs there exists the "A Brief History of the Apocalypse" (http://www.abhota.info/end5.htm) site.

Spoons
2009-Dec-21, 04:46 AM
Does that site include the version where the entire universe slips through the crack in David Letterman's front teeth and we all go down the gurgler?

Paul Beardsley
2009-Dec-21, 08:48 AM
For all your doomsday needs there exists the "A Brief History of the Apocalypse" (http://www.abhota.info/end5.htm) site.

I've just checked it out, and followed it to Nancy Lieder's site. If I understand correctly, it's still possible to take out membership. I found this gem (my bold):

"Any message board where Nancy is expected to post or to which Nancy has directed the public (such as the tt-watch) is literally infested with professional debunkers or those in shrill denial..."

Denial? Denial? It's over six and a half years since their predicted and promised day of doom! What the heck am I supposed to be denying?

Perhaps now that the internet preserves the complete nonsense spouted by... certain people, doomsayers might be a little more circumspect. Of course, I've got no evidence to support this, and there's all too much evidence that refutes it. But I'll think it anyway.

Spoons
2009-Dec-21, 08:58 AM
Come now Paul. You and I both know that they're spot on, it's just their numerical skills which are failing them.

How many accountants are also doomsdayers?

(Maybe that's a bad example)

KaiYeves
2009-Dec-21, 03:21 PM
I've lost track of the number of "Doomsdays" I've lived through. Let's see, there was 1982, when there was a planet alignment (sort-of), there was one associated with Comet Hale-Bopp IIRC, Y2K, of course, and I think there was another [sort-of] planet alignment in May of 2005. I know I'm missing a bunch. Anyone else?
Only others I can think of are 6/6/06 and LHC turn-on in September 2008.

(Every June 6th, I like to remind my friends "Remember how two/three/four/whatever years ago today you thought the world was going to end?"

And they just look at me like I'm crazy.)

Spoons
2009-Dec-22, 12:33 AM
I think it's more the weird hat that gives them that look.
http://kamakaze.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/meat_hat.jpg
Yipes - this is post 2009 of mine... the end is near.

Abaddon
2009-Dec-23, 08:10 PM
Just out of sheer curiosity.

With "2012 doom" rapidly approaching its own demise, the true blue believers will undoubtedly latch on to some new doom date.

What will the next doom date be?

Is there anything out there by way of predictions that will suck in the doom believers into a new date?

I am unaware of any, but its a fair bet some doom prediction will turn up to replace the old failed predictions, isnt it?

CJSF
2009-Dec-23, 10:27 PM
Somewhat farther out, take any of the close approaches of Apophis - 2029 and 2036 especially.

CJSF

Starfury
2009-Dec-24, 01:16 AM
Somewhat farther out, take any of the close approaches of Apophis - 2029 and 2036 especially.

CJSF

I'm with you on this one. There'll be those saying that the government is conspiring to hide the fact that Apophis will hit the earth, blah, blah, blah.

clint
2009-Dec-24, 01:40 AM
http://kamakaze.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/meat_hat.jpg

Is that The Blob?? :eek:

Abaddon
2009-Dec-24, 06:02 AM
Somewhat farther out, take any of the close approaches of Apophis - 2029 and 2036 especially.

CJSF

Yep, that sounds pretty doom laden right enough.

Is anyone doing a Nancy Lieder act on it yet?

Weltraum
2009-Dec-25, 05:31 AM
http://2012hoax.org

The problem is that by trying to refute as many claims about 2012 as possible, NASA has created a mess that is easy to misunderstand.

Nibiru was originally the name Zecharia Sitchin used for a tenth planet that was supposedly known to the Ancient Sumerians. He did not say anything about a collision.

Then there was the Planet X craze in 2003 - the old Bad Astronomy site has a page about it:
http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/misc/planetx/index.html
They picked Sitchin's name and ran with it.

When the end of the world didn't came in 2003, they tied it with another claim that had run for some time then - the end of the longest cycle of the Mayan calendar in 2012. Originally, it wasn't about a doomsday event, but a New Age claim about "a new age of consciousness", like the Age of the Aquarius.

Nostradamus gets thrown in with the lot to give more weight. AFAIK, he hasn't predicted anything about 2012. As you may know, most of his "prophecies" are very unclear and everyone can interpret them in the way they want.

I for one would love to see the original materials from which Sitchin purportedly draws his conclusions. Have any scholars looked at what he claims to have looked at and made an independent determination? For now, the whole thing is vapour to me.

And I certainly believe right now that, as with so many crazy beliefs, this one has spread like wildfire as a rumour - especially online - and many then stop and say, gee, so many people seem to think something's going to happen. This must have something to it! Human beings can be quite frustrating.

Gillianren
2009-Dec-25, 06:16 AM
Have any scholars looked at what he claims to have looked at and made an independent determination?

Yes. I'll give you two guesses as to their conclusions, and the first one doesn't count.

jaeger
2010-Jan-02, 05:42 PM
Somewhat farther out, take any of the close approaches of Apophis - 2029 and 2036 especially.

CJSF

Way too far out. You need something more immediate in the 2014/20015 range to take advantage of short attention spans of the HB'ers and the resulting ability to capitalize on impending doom (book sales, movies, etc.)

Would make an interesting thread - Predict the next doom fad after 2012 fails to materialize.

I do have a serious question, though. Is there any concern that there are enough believers of the 2012 doomday to create some social unrest? In theory, if there were enough believers who then chose a what-the-heck-do-anything-world-is-going-to-end-anyway approach, the results could be unpleasant for the rest of us.

Sardonicone
2010-Jan-02, 05:51 PM
Yep, that sounds pretty doom laden right enough.

Is anyone doing a Nancy Lieder act on it yet?

Even if there were a cover up, is it really large enough to cause a ELE?

The Manson Impact event was thought to have been created by a 2km Meteorite and while it certainly was very bad news a huge region, I was under the impression that there were no known extinctions that were associated with it.

Sardonicone
2010-Jan-02, 05:54 PM
Way too far out. You need something more immediate in the 2014/20015 range to take advantage of short attention spans of the HB'ers and the resulting ability to capitalize on impending doom (book sales, movies, etc.)

Would make an interesting thread - Predict the next doom fad after 2012 fails to materialize.

I do have a serious question, though. Is there any concern that there are enough believers of the 2012 doomday to create some social unrest? In theory, if there were enough believers who then chose a what-the-heck-do-anything-world-is-going-to-end-anyway approach, the results could be unpleasant for the rest of us.

If there were enough of those people, that in of itself could be a "end of the world" scenario.

Gillianren
2010-Jan-02, 07:26 PM
I do have a serious question, though. Is there any concern that there are enough believers of the 2012 doomday to create some social unrest? In theory, if there were enough believers who then chose a what-the-heck-do-anything-world-is-going-to-end-anyway approach, the results could be unpleasant for the rest of us.

I find it unlikely, really. I think they are a smaller and crazier minority than the old Y2K (not talking computers, here, just mindset) crowd.

KaiYeves
2010-Jan-02, 11:02 PM
I do have a serious question, though. Is there any concern that there are enough believers of the 2012 doomday to create some social unrest? In theory, if there were enough believers who then chose a what-the-heck-do-anything-world-is-going-to-end-anyway approach, the results could be unpleasant for the rest of us.
That possibility does worry me, especially considering that Japanese cult who put poison gas in a subway in the 90s because they thought the world would end in 2000...

Sardonicone
2010-Jan-03, 04:16 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/99942_Apophis

Going by the size estimated according to Wikipedia, it's roughly 270m in diameter. Certainly not something you'd want falling in your backyard, or your city, but this isn't exactly "end of the world" sized, by any stretch of the imagination.

Gillianren
2010-Jan-03, 08:53 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/99942_Apophis

Going by the size estimated according to Wikipedia, it's roughly 270m in diameter. Certainly not something you'd want falling in your backyard, or your city, but this isn't exactly "end of the world" sized, by any stretch of the imagination.

A relatively small impactor can create huge problems. I wouldn't want to on the same continent at least. (Well, maybe Asia, if it impacted somewhere Korea-ish and I were in the Urals, or vice versa.)

Sardonicone
2010-Jan-03, 09:09 PM
A relatively small impactor can create huge problems. I wouldn't want to on the same continent at least. (Well, maybe Asia, if it impacted somewhere Korea-ish and I were in the Urals, or vice versa.)

Huge problems? Yes, but again, the Manson impact was estimated to be 2km in diameter, and as far as we know, caused nary an extinction.

I also went ahead and used this size on one of the impact calculators (http://simulator.down2earth.eu/#).

Giving a 45 degree trajectory angle and a 20km/s velocity, it creates a nice 2.8km crater. It also states something like this impact happens on the order of one every 38 thousand years.

Effects from the Atmospheric blast wave seem to dissipate to the point they're negligible after ~145 km.

Using a little more precise perimeters at another calculator gives us the following result.

http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/impacteffects/cgi-bin/crater.cgi?dist=140&distanceUnits=1&diam=270&diameterUnits=1&pdens=&pdens_select=3000&vel=20&velocityUnits=1&theta=45&wdepth=&wdepthUnits=1&tdens=2500

What kind of bothers me is the variance between crater sizes. One states roughly a 2.8km diameter crater (with a 300m sized impact), while the bottom states it will be almost 3 miles.

Both agree this is a rather common occurrence on the time frame of the solar system, the whole of recorded human history has lasted about 1/3rd as long as the "average" time between impacts.

All things considering, you should be fine to be in the same country, let alone continent. Unless of course the country where this takes place happens to be half the size of the state of Ohio.

HenrikOlsen
2010-Jan-03, 10:57 PM
If in case several famous people have prediction 2012 as the end of the world, could there actually be some scientifically explanation to this?
If any of them are still alive these days I challenge them to sign a contract that allows me to put them in a sack and beat them like a pinata on international TV on the 24. of December 2012, as a new Christmas tradition.
If they don't believe the truth of their prediction enough that they'll sign it because they'll be gone or raptured or whatever by that date, have them shut up as admitted liars.

Skyfire
2010-Jan-03, 11:05 PM
Way too far out. You need something more immediate in the 2014/20015 range to take advantage of short attention spans of the HB'ers .... <SNIP>


WOW! That's some range!!! 18000 years of it!!! :)

Sardonicone
2010-Jan-04, 04:52 AM
WOW! That's some range!!! 18000 years of it!!! :)

Go big or go home, I always say.

GalaxyGal
2010-Jan-08, 10:52 AM
I do have a serious question, though. Is there any concern that there are enough believers of the 2012 doomday to create some social unrest? In theory, if there were enough believers who then chose a what-the-heck-do-anything-world-is-going-to-end-anyway approach, the results could be unpleasant for the rest of us.


I find it unlikely, really. I think they are a smaller and crazier minority than the old Y2K (not talking computers, here, just mindset) crowd.

I agreed until I received this invitation from a large church. They consider me 'rational' so I've been asked to be part of a panel discussion. I was raised in a fundamentalist faith, so I'm very familiar with the scriptures they're going to point to. If you hear of anyone being burned at the stake....well, it was nice getting to know you.

"Come join us at XXXX Church this coming Tuesday, January 12, 2010 at 7:00 PM for a candid presentation and discussion of the "perfect storm" that is 2012.

I have commissioned several special video presentations to show the major areas of our concern, i.e.:

1. 2012 is the peak of the 11.1 year Sunspot Activity Cycle. A major solar storm is probable. If a major solar storm occurs, it can permanently destroy many navigational and communications satellites in space (tv, cellphones, GPS, national defense) and the electrical grid. The grid alone could require months or years to repair.

2. Our government spent Billions of dollars building a huge telescope directly on the South Pole in Antarctica - in secret - during the past two years. What are they looking for? Could it be the return of the rogue planet "Nibiru" that the ancient Sumerians believed caused the Flood of Noah?

3. Traditions and calendars of the ancient Mayans, Hopi and Cherokee Indians closely agree (in some cases, exactly!) that something "major" will happen to mankind (and/or) the Earth, in 2012. A tradition of many deaths, cold, wet, constant rain, fog and heavy clouds with NO sunlight for many days, accompanied the last cycle of time. Is this awful period coming again in 2012?
We will discuss the available information and draw conclusions.

Following this discussion we will repair to Fellowship Hall, to enjoy a feast of homemade refreshments which the ladies of the Church have been baking for several days. We will then return to the Sanctuary and I will review for you various Bible prophecies in the light of the material presented above."

Selenite
2010-Jan-08, 12:37 PM
2. Our government spent Billions of dollars building a huge telescope directly on the South Pole in Antarctica - in secret - during the past two years. What are they looking for? Could it be the return of the rogue planet "Nibiru" that the ancient Sumerians believed caused the Flood of Noah?

I love this. Somehow conveniently secret to everyone except this church. ;)

Donnie B.
2010-Jan-08, 01:18 PM
Wow, that blurb has one of the highest "not even wrong" densities I've ever seen.

Swift
2010-Jan-08, 01:24 PM
1. 2012 is the peak of the 11.1 year Sunspot Activity Cycle. A major solar storm is probable. If a major solar storm occurs, it can permanently destroy many navigational and communications satellites in space (tv, cellphones, GPS, national defense) and the electrical grid. The grid alone could require months or years to repair.
No, 2012 is not predicted to be the peak. This NASA website (http://www.swpc.noaa.gov/SolarCycle/) has graphs showing the predicted peak is more likely 2013 to 2014. During the last peak we had some major solar storms, and if I remember correctly, the electrical grid wasn't destroyed.


2. Our government spent Billions of dollars building a huge telescope directly on the South Pole in Antarctica - in secret - during the past two years. What are they looking for? Could it be the return of the rogue planet "Nibiru" that the ancient Sumerians believed caused the Flood of Noah?
Here is a website (http://pole.uchicago.edu/index.php) about the telescope, run by the University of Chicago, in collaboration with several other schools.

The South Pole telescope (or SPT) is a new telescope deployed at the South Pole that is designed to study the Cosmic Microwave background. Constructed between November 2006 and February 2007, the SPT is the largest telescope ever deployed at the South Pole. This telescope provides astronomers a powerful new tool to explore dark energy, the mysterious phenomena that may be causing the universe to accelerate. We invite you to explore these pages to share in our experiences during the design, construction, and (currently) operation of this powerful telescope.

There is a list of publications based on the work there. None of it is about "Nibiru", but I assume that is part of the cover-up. :rolleyes:


3. Traditions and calendars of the ancient Mayans, Hopi and Cherokee Indians closely agree (in some cases, exactly!) that something "major" will happen to mankind (and/or) the Earth, in 2012. A tradition of many deaths, cold, wet, constant rain, fog and heavy clouds with NO sunlight for many days, accompanied the last cycle of time. Is this awful period coming again in 2012?
I know nothing about Hopi or Cherokee calendars (I didn't even know that had one). There have been endless discussions about the Mayans around here. Their calendar no more ends in 2012 than your's ended on Dec. 31. There are no predictions in Mayan beliefs about "no sunlight for many days", etc.


Following this discussion we will repair to Fellowship Hall, to enjoy a feast of homemade refreshments which the ladies of the Church have been baking for several days.
That sounds like the best part of the whole evening. :D

Sardonicone
2010-Jan-08, 01:33 PM
I agreed until I received this invitation from a large church. They consider me 'rational' so I've been asked to be part of a panel discussion. I was raised in a fundamentalist faith, so I'm very familiar with the scriptures they're going to point to. If you hear of anyone being burned at the stake....well, it was nice getting to know you.

"Come join us at XXXX Church this coming Tuesday, January 12, 2010 at 7:00 PM for a candid presentation and discussion of the "perfect storm" that is 2012.

I have commissioned several special video presentations to show the major areas of our concern, i.e.:

1. 2012 is the peak of the 11.1 year Sunspot Activity Cycle. A major solar storm is probable. If a major solar storm occurs, it can permanently destroy many navigational and communications satellites in space (tv, cellphones, GPS, national defense) and the electrical grid. The grid alone could require months or years to repair.

2. Our government spent Billions of dollars building a huge telescope directly on the South Pole in Antarctica - in secret - during the past two years. What are they looking for? Could it be the return of the rogue planet "Nibiru" that the ancient Sumerians believed caused the Flood of Noah?

3. Traditions and calendars of the ancient Mayans, Hopi and Cherokee Indians closely agree (in some cases, exactly!) that something "major" will happen to mankind (and/or) the Earth, in 2012. A tradition of many deaths, cold, wet, constant rain, fog and heavy clouds with NO sunlight for many days, accompanied the last cycle of time. Is this awful period coming again in 2012?
We will discuss the available information and draw conclusions.

Following this discussion we will repair to Fellowship Hall, to enjoy a feast of homemade refreshments which the ladies of the Church have been baking for several days. We will then return to the Sanctuary and I will review for you various Bible prophecies in the light of the material presented above."

I...I don't even know what to say. Please go and educate those poor souls before they start digging out bomb shelters in their backyards.

Gillianren
2010-Jan-08, 06:04 PM
I have to say, though, GalaxyGal, that it's still just one group. I had a friend whose mother was stockpiling for Y2K; I've only encountered people online who are wigging out about 2012, and most people, I suspect, wouldn't know what we were talking about were it not for the History Channel.

GalaxyGal
2010-Jan-09, 01:59 AM
Quote:
Following this discussion we will repair to Fellowship Hall, to enjoy a feast of homemade refreshments which the ladies of the Church have been baking for several days



That sounds like the best part of the whole evening. :D

You're so right Swift. This congregation is known for their singing and baked goods.

I'm just stunned that church leaders are taking 2012 seriously. When I called the pastor to get the context & intent, I hoped the invitation was 'hyped' and they were going to debunk the 2012 nonsense....not add to it. Unfortunately, that's not the case.

I'm prepping material and will load my flashdrive with any videos, materials I can find. Hopefully, I'll still get to enjoy a cup of coffee and some Apple Brown Betty before they toss me out into the snow.

captain swoop
2010-Jan-09, 12:53 PM
cold, wet, constant rain, fog and heavy clouds with NO sunlight for many days
Sounds like summer in the UK :)

Starfury
2010-Jan-09, 02:50 PM
I have to say, though, GalaxyGal, that it's still just one group. I had a friend whose mother was stockpiling for Y2K; I've only encountered people online who are wigging out about 2012, and most people, I suspect, wouldn't know what we were talking about were it not for the History Channel.

History Channel? Hysteria Channel more like.

Sardonicone
2010-Jan-09, 06:14 PM
Quote:
Following this discussion we will repair to Fellowship Hall, to enjoy a feast of homemade refreshments which the ladies of the Church have been baking for several days



You're so right Swift. This congregation is known for their singing and baked goods.

I'm just stunned that church leaders are taking 2012 seriously. When I called the pastor to get the context & intent, I hoped the invitation was 'hyped' and they were going to debunk the 2012 nonsense....not add to it. Unfortunately, that's not the case.

I'm prepping material and will load my flashdrive with any videos, materials I can find. Hopefully, I'll still get to enjoy a cup of coffee and some Apple Brown Betty before they toss me out into the snow.

Do your best to record the events of that evening.

GalaxyGal
2010-Jan-09, 08:58 PM
Do your best to record the events of that evening.

I plan to. This church knows and likes me....now. They aren't sure of my position on 2012, but they do know I'm a data geek (6Sigma/Lean) and know scripture.

In searching for good, short videos, disappointed in what I'm finding. There's good information, but either laughing or a superior tone which could be perceived as condescending. Can't expect them to listen if their guard is up.

Here's the best I've found so far. Need runtime < 4 min. If you know of others, please pass them along.

2012 – A Scientific Reality Check (runtime: 3:25 min)
Source: Manager of NASA’s Near-Earth Object Office
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/video/index.cfm?id=876
(Simple, clear, explanatory, ‘just the facts’ friendly tone)

KaiYeves
2010-Jan-09, 10:21 PM
History Channel? Hysteria Channel more like.
From what I've heard lately, it's the Stuff (Real or Not) That Can Kill You (Insert Explosion Here) Channel.

Gillianren
2010-Jan-10, 12:57 AM
History Channel? Hysteria Channel more like.

Only--and I am very tired of pointing this out--on the shows it hypes most. The fact that it hypes them most is entirely depressing, and I admit that, but they do a fair amount of intelligent programming even yet, and even some that, while not best intelligent, is not making people paranoid about anything.

GalaxyGal
2010-Jan-10, 02:29 AM
Here are some BAUT Forum topics that have addressed aspects of predictions for year 2012, and some allied articles:


2003 no, 2012 si (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=03179)
2012 (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=03181)
End of Mayan Calendar (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=04509)
Pole shift / Planetary alignment 2012? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=07145)
2012 alignment question (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=09421)
about the Mayan 2012 item (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=10214)
2012 Debunking? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=10724)
Possible asteroid impact in 2012? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=10924)
2012 asteroid? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=13592)
We don't have to worry about 2012! (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=16490)
More on 2012 from India Daily (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=16709)
2012 Completion of conspiracy? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=17667)
Here's what's REALLY going to happen in 2012... (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=18322)
crop circles, Planet X and 2012 (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=18375)
Planet X, crop circles and 2012 cataclysma (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=18378)
According to the Mayans, what will happen on 23rd Dec. 2012? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=18757)
More 2012 Nonsense (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=19201)
NEO 2012? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=20191)
Dangerous NEO in 2012? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=20539)
Christmas 2012 (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=23941)
2012 mayan calender end of world (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=30892)
Regarding the supposed polar shift/new ice age in 2012 (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=31452)
New 2012 threat? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=32413)
2012 look at this thing on the sun (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=35462)
Russian Expert Predicts Global Cooling from 2012 (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=38978)
Pole shift idea origins (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=43775)
Dec 20 2012 (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=46117)
2012 Stuff (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=51021)
No reply previous question (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=52297)
Horizon Project-New End of World Scare? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=53788)
Date: December 21st 2012 (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=53831)
Earth passing thru Galactic center in 2012 - didn't that already happen? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=53904)
2012: What do you think well happen (if anything) (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=53924)
So what will we see in 2012? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=54404)
Galactic Tsunami? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=54418)
Plane of the ecliptic of the galaxy? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=55312)
Earth's Magnetic Field & 2012 (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=55386)
2012? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=56513)
Any truth to this? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=58039)
How can the sun be aligned with Galactic centre? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=63109)
the whole 2012 poles flip nonsense (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=63449)
Planet X Official Advertisement (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=65831)
What year are we in (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=66055)
Quick question about the sun (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=66221)
Galactic Alignment (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=66414)
Books of 2012! - (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=67663)
2007 = 2012 (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=67908)
Return of Planet X By Rand (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=67948)
Don Alejandro - Mayan Elder. (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=67954)
Toutatis 4179: 2012? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=68472)
Galactic Alignment in 2012 ? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=68661)
Solar Storms (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=68907)
A real prediction! (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=69448)
NIBURU - Brown Dwarf, The DESTROYER (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=70163)
2012 Galactic Alignment (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=70260)
Not 2012 again! But I cant help it~ (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=70438)
New evidence for 2012 TEOTWAWKI!!! (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=70795)
this may be a silly question but... (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=71061)
Just to know if this is true (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=71216)
Just Wondering... (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=71633)
Planet X/Nibiru, is it real? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=72398)
Youv heard this a million times. (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=72777)
Nibaru or Planet X (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=73180)
Mayan calendar (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=73414)
2012 Article? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=73492)
can i say something please on planet x (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=73579)
Nibiru (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=73654)
The growing earth.... :P (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=74164)
Our Solar System's Eclipse of the Galactic Plane on Dec 21, 2012? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=74615)
Something scaring the hell out of me.... (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=74881)
It's Only the end of the World AGAIN!!! (Woo Woo Alert) (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=76346)
2021 Doomsday (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=77802)
is it just me or is the milky way brighter..? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=77955)
Polar Shift in 2012? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=78219)
I would like to ask about Nubiru stuff... (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=78719)
Bit behind the times, my appologies... (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=78966)
the "pole shift thing" (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=79146)
All the Truth about 2012 (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=79425)
Confused about 2012 (yes, another one!) (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=79817)
Another paranoia mind due to 2012 (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=80144)
novelty theory (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=80949)
Possibility of Pole Shift (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=81227)
2012 Vectors (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=81304)
Nibiru Question (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=81363)
Odd things floating on google sky (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=82312)
2012 end of the world? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=86195)
2012 and Solar Storms? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=87388)
Nibiru (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=88006)
Sun polar shift weirdness. (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=89521)
Question? [2012] (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=89525)
December 21st 2012 (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=91235)
UN Agenda 21 and the coming pole reversal scare (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=92451)
Space storm alert: 90 seconds from catastrophe (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=93709)

Universe Today: No Doomsday in 2012 (http://www.universetoday.com/2008/05/19/no-doomsday-in-2012/)
Bad Astronomy Blog: 2012, the year nothing will happen (http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/05/19/2012-the-year-nothing-will-happen/)
Universe Today: 2012: No Planet X (http://www.universetoday.com/2008/05/25/2012-no-planet-x/)
Universe Today: 2012: Planet X is not Nibiru (http://www.universetoday.com/2008/06/19/2012-planet-x-is-not-nibiru/)
Universe Today: 2012: No Killer Solar Flare (http://www.universetoday.com/2008/06/21/2012-no-killer-solar-flare/)
Universe Today: 2012: No Geomagnetic Reversal (http://www.universetoday.com/2008/10/03/2012-no-geomagnetic-reversal/)
Universe Today: 2012: No Comet (http://www.universetoday.com/2008/12/21/2012-no-comet/)
Universe Today: Another Voice Against 2012 Mania (http://www.universetoday.com/2009/02/15/another-voice-against-2012-mania/)

This comprehensive list of 2012 sources from another thread is terrific!
Thank you 01101001! I'm sure you are highly regarded by BAUTers. Those that are on a 'first number' basis with you should count themselves fortunate.

slang
2010-Jan-10, 02:33 AM
Thank you 01101001! I'm sure you are highly regarded by BAUTers. Those that are on a 'first number' basis with you should count themselves fortunate.

We hatessss numerology, my preciousss. ;)

GalaxyGal
2010-Jan-10, 01:17 PM
We hatessss numerology, my preciousss. ;)
Slang,

Obviously you're not one of the folks close to 01101001. No dialogue or calls exchanged....but now that you have his/her number - that can be easily remedied. Perhaps you should take the initiative, pick up the phone and give 01101001 a ring.

Who knows, you may become friends. Now wouldn't that be precioussss?
:D

Donnie B.
2010-Jan-10, 03:21 PM
Yes, you could be missing out on a wonderful fellowship.

Swift
2010-Jan-10, 05:14 PM
We hatessss numerology, my preciousss. ;)
That statement has a ring of truth.

TheOneYouSeek
2010-Jan-10, 08:52 PM
I agreed until I received this invitation from a large church. They consider me 'rational' so I've been asked to be part of a panel discussion. I was raised in a fundamentalist faith, so I'm very familiar with the scriptures they're going to point to. If you hear of anyone being burned at the stake....well, it was nice getting to know you.

"Come join us at XXXX Church this coming Tuesday, January 12, 2010 at 7:00 PM for a candid presentation and discussion of the "perfect storm" that is 2012.

I have commissioned several special video presentations to show the major areas of our concern, i.e.:

1. 2012 is the peak of the 11.1 year Sunspot Activity Cycle. A major solar storm is probable. If a major solar storm occurs, it can permanently destroy many navigational and communications satellites in space (tv, cellphones, GPS, national defense) and the electrical grid. The grid alone could require months or years to repair.

2. Our government spent Billions of dollars building a huge telescope directly on the South Pole in Antarctica - in secret - during the past two years. What are they looking for? Could it be the return of the rogue planet "Nibiru" that the ancient Sumerians believed caused the Flood of Noah?

3. Traditions and calendars of the ancient Mayans, Hopi and Cherokee Indians closely agree (in some cases, exactly!) that something "major" will happen to mankind (and/or) the Earth, in 2012. A tradition of many deaths, cold, wet, constant rain, fog and heavy clouds with NO sunlight for many days, accompanied the last cycle of time. Is this awful period coming again in 2012?
We will discuss the available information and draw conclusions.

Following this discussion we will repair to Fellowship Hall, to enjoy a feast of homemade refreshments which the ladies of the Church have been baking for several days. We will then return to the Sanctuary and I will review for you various Bible prophecies in the light of the material presented above."

Everyone sould see that this is a hoax. The curch oftens claim other religons wrong but when they could be used for gaining more members they must use OFC. :whistle:

As for the Hopi indians, they did not have calendar and did not predicted 2012 as some sort of doomsday, thank you very much.

KaiYeves
2010-Jan-10, 09:14 PM
Hanging out with Binary Guy is a good hobbit to have.

GalaxyGal
2010-Jan-11, 12:09 AM
\hey must use OFC.


Help me out here - what's "OFC"?

Swift
2010-Jan-11, 01:11 AM
The curch oftens claim other religons wrong but when they could be used for gaining more members they must use OFC. :whistle:

Let's not go any further along those lines. We have strict rules against discussions of religion. Let's keep this on 2012.

01101001
2010-Jan-11, 05:46 AM
Help me out here - what's "OFC"?

From how I've see the member use OFC, it could be O = "of" and C = "course" and... the F would make it vulgar. I hope I'm wrong.

And, you're welcome for the list of 2012 topics.

BertL
2010-Jan-11, 09:35 AM
From how I've see the member use OFC, it could be O = "of" and C = "course" and... the F would make it vulgar. I hope I'm wrong.

And, you're welcome for the list of 2012 topics.
My friends use "ofc" to say "of course", limiting it to the first three letters only. It need not be vulgar. But we digress. :)

TheOneYouSeek
2010-Jan-12, 07:14 PM
I meant ''of course'', sorry if it was hard to understand I was so tierd that night.

My point was that if A claims B wrong but when A wan't to make other people belive like them they could easily use B claims.

GalaxyGal
2010-Jan-13, 06:03 AM
Well this didn't turn out at all like I expected. Let me reiterate that this isn't my church, but one that I know many of the members and the pastor quite well. They are middle class Christians in a fundamentalist congregation.

The unnerving e-vite I posted was drafted by a truly concerned member who wanted the church warned about 2012 (let's call him Mr 2012). The pastor agreed to allow a session and did not preview or pre-approve the e-vite . We can debate or agree on the wisdom of a church (or NASA for that matter) providing a forum for the 2012 nonsense, but they both did....it is what it is.

Attendance was sparse, as compared with other events - 63 by my count, mostly retirees. There were 3 panelists, the Pastor acted as Moderator and Pastor. NONE of us are scientists or amateur astronomers. (I recently completed an Astronomy 101 course, but still feel like I only know a thimbleful of all there is to learn.) My Astronomy professor and BAUTers kindly helped me with materials.

Video:
2012 – A Scientific Reality Check (runtime: 3:25 min)
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/video/index.cfm?id=876

Handout
2012: Beginning of the End or Why the World Won’t End?
http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/2012.html

The 2 videos were shown together first (Lord's house, Pastor's rules). My JPL clip was followed by Mr 2012's clip with lots of images from the movie with a voiceover explaining the doom about to befall our poor Planet Earth.

We then started the discussion. I wanted to go last, but was asked to go first. "Not a good sign. There are 3 of them to attack me and the information" I thought to myself. Being in the habit of always documenting sources, my slides, video and handouts all had attributions in ADA format.

Mr 2012 followed me going through one incredulous claim after another with no sources mentioned. He quoted a LOT of scripture about end-times...generating a lot of 'Amens' "Glad I parked near the door. Boy o boy, I wish I had an automatic car-starter!" were the main thoughts running through my head.

The next panelist stunned us both. She homeschools her 2 young kids. She had a looong list of former doomsday dates, she'd read 4-5, look up, smile and say "....and we're still here".

She brought Christian sources that debunked 2012 using logic, science, scripture and satire. Here's some of her links:

Christian Astronomers: 4th Day Alliance (lots of material for homeschoolers)
http://www.4thdayalliance.com/files/2012.html

Probe Ministries
http://www.probe.org/site/c.fdKEIMNsEoG/b.5620869/k.DAFC/2012_Is_the_Sky_Really_Falling.htm#text1

The Real 2012 Prophecy: Mayans, Nostradamus, and Planet X, Oh My!
Christian, snarky, satirical view of the 2012 debacle
http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/2012_prophecy_review.html#gECzXSPb17Ul

We had a civil discussion of what we did and didn't know about 2012. I didn't refute or directly address any of Mr 2012's claims, I went into the mode of "Joe Friday"....just the facts and the sources for AsteroidWatch, The Exoplanet search, the telescopes on the South Pole, Mayan long count, etc

As I expected, the science fell mostly on deaf ears....but there were some who were reassured that the sky isn't falling just yet.

Weltraum
2010-Jan-13, 07:49 AM
...

I don't know that we're allowed to quote scripture in the BAUT forum, but the jist of the verses that she quoted:
1.God doesn't want His people to ill-informed
2.A time will come when people will listen to not listen to sound information and will turn to myths.

...

You can quote scripture to me any ol' time, GalaxyGal :) I should hope BAUT wouldn't block posting of any religious text, so long as it's in the context of a valid discussion here.

P.S. Sprechen Sie Pennsylvania Deutsch?

Spoons
2010-Jan-13, 08:40 AM
I'd suggest you check that with a Mod, GalaxyGal. I believe religion for the sake of religion is a no no, and I'm not sure there's many cases where quoting scriptures would add anything worthwhile to a scientific discussion.

Check with the Mods, since what is suitable is not our call, it's theirs.

GalaxyGal
2010-Jan-13, 10:46 AM
I'd suggest you check that with a Mod, GalaxyGal. I believe religion for the sake of religion is a no no, and I'm not sure there's many cases where quoting scriptures would add anything worthwhile to a scientific discussion.

Check with the Mods, since what is suitable is not our call, it's theirs.

Thanks Spoons, will do

I didn't quote the passages or provide chapter and verse, but since a paraphrase may be over the line, I'm erring on the side of caution and editing it out.

Weltram - could you please remove my quote from your post as well? Thanks for your consideration - GG

GalaxyGal
2010-Jan-13, 11:34 AM
P.S. Sprechen Sie Pennsylvania Deutsch?

ich spreche ein bisschen PA deutsch....don't you know!

Tedward
2010-Jan-13, 11:38 AM
I really wish the proponents would put their money where their mouths are, or rather my bank account. Sign it all over December 12 2012 am. Won't be needing it in a post apocalyptic world? A few nice beach houses would be nice. And a private jet...

GalaxyGal
2010-Jan-13, 11:45 AM
I really wish the proponents would put their money where their mouths are, or rather my bank account.

Avoid the rush, be sure to send your 2012 holiday cards to me out early....and enclose a postdated check!

:lol:

BertL
2010-Jan-13, 02:26 PM
I really wish the proponents would put their money where their mouths are, or rather my bank account. Sign it all over December 12 2012 am. Won't be needing it in a post apocalyptic world? A few nice beach houses would be nice. And a private jet...
A friend of mine (who is a huge lover of everything that is conspiracy- or anti-establishment-related) once suggested that in 2012 all notions of money will be gone, because society will be radically different. After I asked him one time, "wanna bet all your money on it?" (which would have been a complete win-win situation for me), he never brought it up again. I guess placing bets is a good reality check for some people, asking them to literally put a price on what they believe.

Swift
2010-Jan-13, 02:35 PM
I'd suggest you check that with a Mod, GalaxyGal. I believe religion for the sake of religion is a no no, and I'm not sure there's many cases where quoting scriptures would add anything worthwhile to a scientific discussion.

Check with the Mods, since what is suitable is not our call, it's theirs.
She did.

I'm OK with it the way it stands, I would prefer we not further edit already posted material (we have rules against revisionism too.)

Rule 12 forbids the discussion of political or relgious issues, but it does not prevent the passing mention of religious text, in context. Since the issue being discussed is 2012 and it happens to have been in a church, I don't see an issue.

However, that does not mean we are allowed to turn this into a discussion of religion. Let's keep focused on 2012.

Thanks,

Spoons
2010-Jan-13, 03:18 PM
Hope I wasn't being intrusive or anything there, I just thought I should suggest her to err on the side of caution. I didn't intend to derail a valid discussion.

Daffy
2010-Jan-13, 03:41 PM
Apologies if this has been asked already...but even if the Mayan Calendar predicted the end of the world (and as far as I can tell it didn't), why does anyone think they had the ability to foretell the future in the first place? I mean, wouldn't that be crucial to know before running screaming down the street?

I mean, OK, they built cool buildings and perfected a crude form of open heart surgery...but seeing into the future? Huh?

Van Rijn
2010-Jan-13, 09:33 PM
Apologies if this has been asked already...but even if the Mayan Calendar predicted the end of the world (and as far as I can tell it didn't), why does anyone think they had the ability to foretell the future in the first place? I mean, wouldn't that be crucial to know before running screaming down the street?


Yes, this has come up on various threads. Often proponents will make other assertions about the Mayans that are supposed to support their predictive powers. For instance, they might say the Mayans made better astronomical predictions than we do (they didn't) or that the Mayans predicted that the Earth would be going through the center of the galaxy/crossing the galactic plane/in a grand alignment in 2012, and claiming this will actually happen in 2012 (it won't).

Or they say others also predicted big things happening in 2012, like Nostradamus (in fact, nobody has presented any clear statement from Nostradamus about 2012).

And so on. Anyway, they'll mention all this stuff (and there are many more poorly supported assertions being thrown around the internet about this topic) and say something like "See, the Mayans were right - this other stuff proves it."

Geo Kaplan
2010-Jan-13, 10:24 PM
Or they say others also predicted big things happening in 2012, like Nostradamus (in fact, nobody has presented any clear statement from Nostradamus about 2012).

Or any clear statement from Nostradamus, period.

Daffy
2010-Jan-13, 10:33 PM
Yes, this has come up on various threads. Often proponents will make other assertions about the Mayans that are supposed to support their predictive powers. For instance, they might say the Mayans made better astronomical predictions than we do (they didn't) or that the Mayans predicted that the Earth would be going through the center of the galaxy/crossing the galactic plane/in a grand alignment in 2012, and claiming this will actually happen in 2012 (it won't).

Or they say others also predicted big things happening in 2012, like Nostradamus (in fact, nobody has presented any clear statement from Nostradamus about 2012).

And so on. Anyway, they'll mention all this stuff (and there are many more poorly supported assertions being thrown around the internet about this topic) and say something like "See, the Mayans were right - this other stuff proves it."

Well, like many others, I think I will throw and end of the world party that night. I predict headaches all around the next morning...maybe I'll write a book. ;)

Tesarra
2010-Jan-13, 10:50 PM
Apologies if this has been asked already...but even if the Mayan Calendar predicted the end of the world (and as far as I can tell it didn't), why does anyone think they had the ability to foretell the future in the first place? I mean, wouldn't that be crucial to know before running screaming down the street?

I mean, OK, they built cool buildings and perfected a crude form of open heart surgery...but seeing into the future? Huh?

We can pretty much lump this under the "Noble Savage" myth that has been perpetuated for the past couple centuries. This myth presumes that ancient peoples were more "spiritual" than we are, more "in tune" with nature, less materialistic, healthier, prettier, etc.

This also goes hand-in-hand with the "god's telephone number" myth that presumes some folks have access to "revealed wisdom" which is somehow superior to anything acquired through scientific analysis.


Tes

Skyfire
2010-Jan-13, 10:51 PM
Or any clear statement from Nostradamus, period.

Didn't someone prove that he predicted pop tarts? If so, I call that fairly clear ..... except perhaps he had failed to mention the year if their invention .....



:)

captain swoop
2010-Jan-13, 11:03 PM
Pity the Mayans didn't predict the collapse of their own civilization

Tesarra
2010-Jan-13, 11:08 PM
they were probably too busy preparing "Calendar 2.0" to notice.. ;-)

Tedward
2010-Jan-14, 08:56 AM
A friend of mine (who is a huge lover of everything that is conspiracy- or anti-establishment-related) once suggested that in 2012 all notions of money will be gone, because society will be radically different. After I asked him one time, "wanna bet all your money on it?" (which would have been a complete win-win situation for me), he never brought it up again. I guess placing bets is a good reality check for some people, asking them to literally put a price on what they believe.

One of things I wonder about, also do the people that spend money on this think what the receivers of their loot want with it?

And if the web sites that push this would show some altruistic bent and donate all proceeds to charity on the eve (pre set up and 100% legal and no get out clauses etc etc) if they have that much faith in it. At least it would show some belief.

Tedward
2010-Jan-14, 09:01 AM
Avoid the rush, be sure to send your 2012 holiday cards to me out early....and enclose a postdated check!

:lol:

Free check? Here you go ✓ ;) (I jest)

Just when you think the card business has it all stitched up, an opening appears. Anyone patented this or got the franchise or whatever it is for the 2012 12 were all doomed day? What do we call it. Dooms holiday? End of the world card is a bit bleak.

GalaxyGal
2010-Jan-14, 10:40 AM
Just a quick thank you to my fellow BAUTers for your help in prepping for the 2012 church meeting this past Tues. I don't know that anyone who was already convinced that the world will end on 2012 changed their mind - I seriously doubt it.

However, it did make a difference for 2 groups: the ones that were curious about the 2012 hullabaloo and those that were fearfully uncertain.

I'm getting some interesting followup questions.....and will no doubt be asking for more of your help. Thanks again

Spoons
2010-Jan-14, 11:40 AM
Good on you for doing it.

The collective sanity of the worldwide community needs people like yourself who will hear about things like this and actually make the effort to go and at least attempt to set the record straight.

Kudos to you!

Swift
2010-Jan-14, 01:55 PM
However, it did make a difference for 2 groups: the ones that were curious about the 2012 hullabaloo and those that were fearfully uncertain.

We've seen a similar situation over the years for 2012, other doomsdays, and other conspiracies. The True Believers are rarely converted. It is to benefit those other two groups that we have the CT forum.

Good for you to join the fight.

MartianMarvin
2010-Jan-14, 04:11 PM
Just when you think the card business has it all stitched up, an opening appears. Anyone patented this or got the franchise or whatever it is for the 2012 12 were all doomed day? What do we call it. Dooms holiday? End of the world card is a bit bleak.

How about "Apocalypse - Humorous"?

clint
2010-Jan-14, 05:02 PM
We've seen a similar situation over the years for 2012, other doomsdays, and other conspiracies. The True Believers are rarely converted. It is to benefit those other two groups that we have the CT forum.

Absolutely! It's always a great resource for looking up the arguments against silly CT claims.

Torch2k
2010-Jan-14, 05:16 PM
Just when you think the card business has it all stitched up, an opening appears. Anyone patented this or got the franchise or whatever it is for the 2012 12 were all doomed day? What do we call it. Dooms holiday? End of the world card is a bit bleak.

:lol: Hopefully Hallmark will cover all the bases with something tasteful. I think I'd lean toward "Welp! It's been great knowin' ya!" Hopefully they'll come out in 2011, so we can pick them up and mail them early.

Gillianren
2010-Jan-14, 05:51 PM
:lol: Hopefully Hallmark will cover all the bases with something tasteful. I think I'd lean toward "Welp! It's been great knowin' ya!" Hopefully they'll come out in 2011, so we can pick them up and mail them early.

Presumably, given that the Apocalypse isn't supposed to be until the Winter Solstice, you'd just mail them out the same time as your Christmas cards. Or instead of, really.

pghnative
2010-Jan-14, 10:16 PM
I'm skeptical about this thread --- I think Mr. Numbers just wanted to add another thread to his giant list of doom.:lol:

GalaxyGal
2010-Jan-15, 12:32 AM
The collective sanity of the worldwide community needs people like yourself who will hear about things like this and actually make the effort to go and at least attempt to set the record straight.


Thanks, but in the interest of full disclosure there were 2 factors that made it impossible to not get involved.

1. I've known many of this church's members and it's pastor for 10+ years
2. THEY asked ME to be a panelist. (If I had just come across a posted flyer, I probably wouldn't have bothered).

I'm a former fundamentalist, so knowing the language, traditions, beliefs and what offends was definitely an advantage. Truth delivered with respect and kindness has a chance (albeit a slim one) to get through.

Spoons
2010-Jan-15, 01:20 AM
All the same, I think you've earn a place in the annals of Stephen Colbert's Difference Makers.
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/wikiality/images/thumb/9/9d/DiffMaker.gif/300px-DiffMaker.gif

GalaxyGal
2010-Jan-15, 01:38 AM
Just when you think the card business has it all stitched up, an opening appears. Anyone patented this or got the franchise or whatever it is for the 2012 12 were all doomed day? What do we call it. Dooms holiday? End of the world card is a bit bleak.


"Happy No Year"???

What if it was a musical card? - plays the chorus of R.E.M.'s song
"It's the end of the world as we know it,
It's the end of the world as we know it,
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine"

Weltraum
2010-Jan-15, 02:55 AM
Thanks Spoons, will do

I didn't quote the passages or provide chapter and verse, but since a paraphrase may be over the line, I'm erring on the side of caution and editing it out.

Weltram - could you please remove my quote from your post as well? Thanks for your consideration - GG

I hope you're not serious. At least not now that a mod has cleared the issue up.

BertL
2010-Jan-15, 04:37 AM
"Happy No Year"???

What if it was a musical card? - plays the chorus of R.E.M.'s song
"It's the end of the world as we know it,
It's the end of the world as we know it,
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine"
Or if you want something a bit less joyful, The End by The Doors.

Tedward
2010-Jan-15, 08:40 AM
I'd go for the Doors. Never really like REM.

You could look up "peter cook end of the world" on youtube. This 2012 has always reminded me of this. Not sure of the status of the material I have found so will not put a link here. Upshot is a group of people reveling in the prospect of the end of the world on a hill. Peter Cook playing the main man is describing how the world will be ruined, doom and gloom etc. World does not end at the appropriate time, Peter gets up and says some thing along the lines of "same time tomorrow, we must get it right one day".

GalaxyGal
2010-Jan-15, 01:02 PM
I hope you're not serious. At least not now that a mod has cleared the issue up.

Sorry about that Weltraum - no need to change anything now that a mod has confirmed it's copesectic. My edit didn't need to the edited afterall - no need to replicate my error.

That was posted after the post that generated a post questioning my post that suggested I post to the mod post haste, who said that the post could stay posted:confused:.........so no, I'm not serious.

Weltraum
2010-Jan-15, 07:49 PM
Sorry about that Weltraum - no need to change anything now that a mod has confirmed it's copesectic. My edit didn't need to the edited afterall - no need to replicate my error.

That was posted after the post that generated a post questioning my post that suggested I post to the mod post haste, who said that the post could stay posted:confused:.........so no, I'm not serious.

.. Biste verheiratet? Unter 30 Jahre alt? :lol: :whistle:

Also, now that the issue is cleared up, could I get you to post the scriptures in question?

GalaxyGal
2010-Jan-15, 09:42 PM
.. Biste verheiratet? Unter 30 Jahre alt? :lol: :whistle:

Also, now that the issue is cleared up, could I get you to post the scriptures in question?

Ja und Nein. Ich bin glücklich verheiratet .....für 28 Jahre. :hand:

The other panelist came at this from a direction that caught Mr 2012 off guard...and also surprised me. I was expecting the passages in the vein of 'no one knows when the end of the world is except for God'. She took a different approach...supporting education.

Hosea 4:6
"My people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge. . . "

2 Timothy 4:3-4
"For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine......... They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."

Jeremiah 29:11
"For I know the plans I have for you, plans for your welfare, not for disaster, to give you a future and a hope."

However, let me provide a caution. One common mistake I've seen made by folks trying to 'convince' fundamentalists (on other topics) is trying to quote scripture back to them. If you're not a fundamentalist, that is often considered highly offensive and backfires (even if you're a Christian of another denomination). I 'refreshed' myself on likely passages to be used, but not a word of scripture crossed my lips in 'their' home.

clint
2010-Jan-15, 10:17 PM
This is taking a weird turn: intimations in German and bible quotes... :neutral:

Weltraum
2010-Jan-15, 10:34 PM
This is taking a weird turn: intimations in German and bible quotes... :neutral:

That's SOP for me.

GalaxyGal
2010-Jan-16, 06:17 PM
This is taking a weird turn: intimations in German..... C'mon, a public posting is hardly an 'intimation'. For the curious, Google translate (http://translate.google.com) is a good resource to use as you travel through cyberspace.

Clint,
Sorry für die Ablenkung. Mein einziges Interesse ist beim Lernen von Ressourcen, die mir helfen, antworten auf Fragen über die 2012 Unsinn.

OOPS - did it again.....

Clint,
Sorry for the distraction. My only interest is in learning of resources that will help me respond to questions about the 2012 nonsense.

...again, many thanks to the board.

DippyHippy
2010-Jan-18, 10:05 PM
LOL Weltraum

I watched Capricorn One again about a month ago, just for fun. Hadn't seen it in about 20 years. I enjoyed it but it had some HUGE plot holes. Like how no one in mission control noticed they were talking to a tape recording during the lift off while the astronauts were on their way to the secret facility.

I thought it was very imaginative but if anything, it proved how truly difficult it would be to attempt such a fraud. Frankly, it would be almost impossible.

Weltraum
2010-Jan-19, 05:58 AM
LOL Weltraum

I watched Capricorn One again about a month ago, just for fun. Hadn't seen it in about 20 years. I enjoyed it but it had some HUGE plot holes. Like how no one in mission control noticed they were talking to a tape recording during the lift off while the astronauts were on their way to the secret facility.

I thought it was very imaginative but if anything, it proved how truly difficult it would be to attempt such a fraud. Frankly, it would be almost impossible.

Oh, indeed! The more you think about that film, the more unanswered questions it raises. I daresay it can help a person understand how difficult faking such a mission would actually be!

Even using what they showed, the obviously slowed down film clip of the guys jumping down to the fake Mars surface was a dead give-away. They activated it just for the jump, so the frame rate changed. :D

Of course, the moon landing claims tend to be that Apollo 11 used 1/2 speed + cables, while the subsequent missions went with 2/3 speed + cables. Evidence for this? Speeding various clips up to see how "natural" they look, and then claiming they see cables in those video clips where the PLSS antennae flash in the sunlight. They turn a blind eye to the fact that the flashing "cable" only goes up as high as an antenna, and to those clips where the thing can be seen flashing horizontally when an astronaut has fallen down. :D :liar:

Anyway, I suppose this is all off-topic in this particular thread.

Swift
2010-Jan-19, 04:13 PM
Anyway, I suppose this is all off-topic in this particular thread.
Yes.

Let's leave this one for the 2012 nonsense, and stick Moon landing hoax nonsense in an appropriate thread (there are many to choose from).

Thanks all.

Starfury
2010-Jan-20, 03:40 AM
I found this at 2012hoax.org:

http://2012hoax.wdfiles.com/local--files/mayan-calendar/maya_cartoon.JPG

:lol:

KaiYeves
2010-Jan-21, 01:24 AM
I've just saved that as one of my pictures.

GalaxyGal
2010-Jan-21, 02:58 AM
http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/9125/20091209mayancalendarj.jpg

...must be ahead of my time. I already have a Dilbert calendar!

Weltraum
2010-Jan-21, 04:17 AM
http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/9125/20091209mayancalendarj.jpg

...must be ahead of my time. I already have a Dilbert calendar!

http://thecornfieldonline.com/Smileys/corn/laughing13oc.gif ... http://thecornfieldonline.com/Smileys/corn/cornlol1fo.gif

Genius.

NEOWatcher
2010-Jan-21, 03:57 PM
...must be ahead of my time. I already have a Dilbert calendar!
Well, they did say "we switch". So that doesn't mean other cultures have previously switch. ;)

Weltraum
2010-Jan-21, 09:06 PM
Well, they did say "we switch". So that doesn't mean other cultures have previously switch. ;)

Not sure what you mean here, sir. "We switch" doesn't carry a lot of meaning with it - it's a present-tense construction with a future meaning. I wouldn't draw any conclusions about when other cultures may have switched calendars based on this statement.

But perhaps there is something I'm missing?

NEOWatcher
2010-Jan-21, 09:22 PM
But perhaps there is something I'm missing?
I think so, but it's difficult to explain, and with time, losing its impact. So; I guess I'll just let it lay to rest as an ineffective statement.

GalaxyGal
2010-Jan-22, 12:57 AM
Well, they did say "we switch". So that doesn't mean other cultures have previously switch. ;)

True - good catch......so I'm reaaaaaaaally far ahead!!! - sweet

Sporally
2010-Aug-17, 04:28 PM
Funny drawings, never seen such a hoax-explanation in a danish newspaper :lol:


Have you actually read Nostradamus? You can take what he "predicted" and say it refers to just about anything. However, for reasons I do not understand, he has a lot of weight in some circles.
No, but have heard that what he is referring to is very discussable..

What worried me was that i think i've heard there were two independent prospects of the same date - in december 2012, that's what made me worry...


What will the next doom date be?
Do you worry if you aren't a believer? :)


If any of them are still alive these days I challenge them to sign a contract that allows me to put them in a sack and beat them like a pinata on international TV on the 24. of December 2012, as a new Christmas tradition.
If they don't believe the truth of their prediction enough that they'll sign it because they'll be gone or raptured or whatever by that date, have them shut up as admitted liars.
Everybody can be wrong, but in this case i will say 'Fair' :clap:


2. Our government spent Billions of dollars building a huge telescope directly on the South Pole in Antarctica - in secret - during the past two years.

3. Traditions and calendars of the ancient Mayans, Hopi and Cherokee Indians closely agree (in some cases, exactly!) that something "major" will happen to mankind (and/or) the Earth, in 2012.
If they can prove these statements i will be interested...! :razz: However, 'their place' is not famous for proofs...


A friend of mine (who is a huge lover of everything that is conspiracy- or anti-establishment-related) once suggested that in 2012 all notions of money will be gone, because society will be radically different. After I asked him one time, "wanna bet all your money on it?" (which would have been a complete win-win situation for me), he never brought it up again. I guess placing bets is a good reality check for some people, asking them to literally put a price on what they believe.
Definately! This seem to be working, but i guess the thing is that believer are nothing more than 'maybe it will happen'-believers or even 'hopers' :neutral: that can't distinguish hope and belief...


And if the web sites that push this would show some altruistic bent and donate all proceeds to charity on the eve (pre set up and 100% legal and no get out clauses etc etc) if they have that much faith in it. At least it would show some belief.
And some popularity in the few hours between the transfer of their money till people find that they all very wrong and just had provokated bad feelings in other worried lesser knowing people for all these years..


Truth delivered with respect and kindness has a chance (albeit a slim one) to get through.
Extremely slim in those circles i would say! But nice giving it a go though i guess you 'lost'? :clap:

NEOWatcher
2010-Aug-17, 04:48 PM
Do you worry if you aren't a believer? :)
It's not the topic of the belief that's being worried about, it's the believers that's worth worrying about. :p

Gillianren
2010-Aug-17, 05:56 PM
No, but have heard that what he is referring to is very discussable..

If you can work out to what he's referring, sure.

Incidentally, you've misspelled "Hemingway" in your signature.

Sporally
2010-Aug-18, 02:58 AM
[Signature changed - for whatever reason he changed his name from last time i checked :) ]

True. First of, what is he referring to, secondly, is this really what he is referring to... I've become more an more spectic about Nostradamus lately, having more support a couple of years ago in my mind.


It's not the topic of the belief that's being worried about, it's the believers that's worth worrying about. :p
A humanist, lovely :)

Gillianren
2010-Aug-18, 03:17 AM
True. First of, what is he referring to, secondly, is this really what he is referring to... I've become more an more spectic about Nostradamus lately, having more support a couple of years ago in my mind.

How much time in those years have you spent reading the actual quatrains? Anyone who has either comes away a skeptic or will never be one.

Sporally
2010-Aug-18, 03:56 AM
None.. Guess that is what makes most people compelled towards his work, they simply are just drawn by the media pointing on 'what i could have meant'...

JayUtah
2010-Aug-18, 09:32 PM
How much time in those years have you spent reading the actual quatrains? Anyone who has either comes away a skeptic or will never be one.

The quatrains are practically nonsense. They almost seem to have meaning, which is apparently why so many people scramble to attach some meaning to them. They're the literary equivalent of fluffy white clouds, which are bunnies to some, but which are really just water vapor.

One of these days I'm going to turn my Bible Code software loose on Nostradamus and see what hilarity falls out the bottom of that doubly-worthless exercise.

Sporally
2010-Aug-18, 09:39 PM
People just seem to want to believe in one thing or the other. Personally i was never into it like that, but when i thought he had said something about the exact same date as the Aztecs but independently from the Aztecs i wondered in there could be some scientifical explanation to all this. But since people just want to believe in something like this, they are very compelled by the media trying to make a bunch of money producing these kind of crappy shows just to make money from something...

Abaddon
2010-Aug-21, 07:40 PM
[Signature changed - for whatever reason he changed his name from last time i checked :) ]

True. First of, what is he referring to, secondly, is this really what he is referring to... I've become more an more spectic about Nostradamus lately, having more support a couple of years ago in my mind.


A humanist, lovely :)

Interested observer might be a more accurate description.

Geo Kaplan
2010-Aug-21, 09:46 PM
People just seem to want to believe in one thing or the other. Personally i was never into it like that, but when i thought he had said something about the exact same date as the Aztecs but independently from the Aztecs i wondered in there could be some scientifical explanation to all this. But since people just want to believe in something like this, they are very compelled by the media trying to make a bunch of money producing these kind of crappy shows just to make money from something...

Yes, Nostradamus' writings are so random and vague that they constitute a Rorschach test, in essence.

If you are interested in a critical analysis, I highly recommend reading James Randi's The Mask of Nostradamus. Therein you will discover that almost everything you've read about Nostradamus (and what he wrote) has been distorted shamelessly.

The short version: The quatrains have no predictive power (other than "Reading these will irretrievably waste time").

Abaddon
2010-Aug-22, 07:56 AM
Yes, Nostradamus' writings are so random and vague that they constitute a Rorschach test, in essence.


This, I like. I recall as a teen being quite taken with the Nostradamus Nonsense. I bought and read the books. I may even still have one or two in the dusty recesses of my bookshelves. (disinclined to make the effort to search).
What killed the idea for me was that none of it actually works, unless one accepts the wild leaps of logic required to bend the quatrains into fantastic POSTdictions.

The analogy of a Rorschach test is so good, I wish I had thought of it.

Request permission to use said analogy, sir.

Dave J
2010-Aug-22, 10:07 AM
I'm curious about something...does the Mayan calender prediction take into account leap years? It would seem that, over the many years since, this might skew the prediction date somewhat...

Sporally
2010-Aug-22, 11:54 AM
If you are interested in a critical analysis, I highly recommend reading James Randi's The Mask of Nostradamus. Therein you will discover that almost everything you've read about Nostradamus (and what he wrote) has been distorted shamelessly.
A very typical human error has always been that you jump into a discussion without having studied both versions equally. If i were ever to take a discussion outside of this board regarding Nostradamus, i would have demanded that the person i'm discussing it with has at least both read some of Nostradamus' work as well as for instance The Mask of Nostradamus. And i guess that has to go for myself aswell :) You can never have an intelligent discussion if you only know the one side of the story. The human mind is just to vague and too easy to convince.

Personally this happened to me regarding the Roswell Incident or more like UFOs in general, and it happened to the entire german population (more or less) in the 30th and 40th. They were stupid or ignorant, they just had other reasons to join Hitler's quest that the english didn't have.

HenrikOlsen
2010-Aug-22, 12:33 PM
You can never have an intelligent discussion if you only know the one side of the story.
Actually you can, but it requires the other person knowing both sides and that you have a willingness to learn.

Sporally
2010-Aug-22, 03:54 PM
Well, not what i meant, but true! :)

Gillianren
2010-Aug-23, 04:24 PM
I'm curious about something...does the Mayan calender prediction take into account leap years? It would seem that, over the many years since, this might skew the prediction date somewhat...

That's actually an interesting question. I wish I knew the answer.

Tenshu
2010-Aug-23, 08:39 PM
Does it matter? Nothing is going to happen.

Geo Kaplan
2010-Aug-23, 09:42 PM
This, I like. I recall as a teen being quite taken with the Nostradamus Nonsense. I bought and read the books. I may even still have one or two in the dusty recesses of my bookshelves. (disinclined to make the effort to search).
What killed the idea for me was that none of it actually works, unless one accepts the wild leaps of logic required to bend the quatrains into fantastic POSTdictions.

The analogy of a Rorschach test is so good, I wish I had thought of it.

Request permission to use said analogy, sir.

Please feel free to do so; no permission or attribution necessary. But glad you liked it.

Gillianren
2010-Aug-23, 11:45 PM
Does it matter? Nothing is going to happen.

I know nothing is going to happen, but it would be an even stronger indicator of the research level involved, and it would be interesting on a purely intellectual level to know if the Maya observed leap years.

HenrikOlsen
2010-Aug-24, 12:50 AM
As the system used two cycles of 260 days and 365 days respectively, plus the long count of 1, 20, 360, 7200, 144000, . . . days, with no indication that leap days were used, I strongly suspect the answer is no for leap days.

Spoons
2010-Aug-24, 05:16 AM
I had a quick look when I saw this question last night, and the answer to whether they allowed for leap years appeared to be no, but I don't know whether this fact may have been allowed for within calculations. It's very easy to bring everything back down to days for the calcs, but even that level of effort suggests it probably wasn't done by those suggesting a doomsday.

It's easier to bend and twist the facts when you ignore the details.

Sir Knots A Lot
2010-Aug-24, 05:29 AM
Actually you can, but it requires the other person knowing both sides and that you have a willingness to learn.

Huh... truer words.

Gillianren
2010-Aug-24, 05:58 AM
I had a quick look when I saw this question last night, and the answer to whether they allowed for leap years appeared to be no, but I don't know whether this fact may have been allowed for within calculations. It's very easy to bring everything back down to days for the calcs, but even that level of effort suggests it probably wasn't done by those suggesting a doomsday.

I've always been bewildered that some of them have even heard the word "Maya" before.


It's easier to bend and twist the facts when you ignore the details.

As is documented over and over again in this section of the board, yes.

Spoons
2010-Aug-24, 09:17 AM
I think if you mentioned Maya it would blow their mind-shaped objects.

"That's not a word. Oh, you mean Mayan! It's not the Maya Prophecy silly! Get your factoids straight."

Donnie B.
2010-Aug-24, 03:35 PM
I did a (very) little reading about the Mayan leap year thing, and it seems the best answer is "we're not sure". Some scholars see evidence that leap days were used in one of the counts (the 365 day one, IIRC).

I think we can be fairly certain that the Maya knew that the year was not exactly 365 days long, since their grasp of matters astronomical was quite sophisticated. I would think leap days would be required for accurate eclipse prediction (for example).

Sporally
2010-Aug-24, 10:15 PM
I think we can be fairly certain that the Maya knew that the year was not exactly 365 days long, since their grasp of matters astronomical was quite sophisticated. I would think leap days would be required for accurate eclipse prediction (for example).
I would think all civilizations know about this. Some, probably the most, will take account of this, but nevertheless, every civilization should be able to find out about this.

Spoons
2010-Aug-24, 10:19 PM
Yeah, I think they may have had a corrective function. I think I may have read that somewhere a long time ago. The problem is that now, with all the woo folk posting stuff about it, any search for good, accurate info on the Mayan people and their ways is clouded by junk, false info and "hold my hands, we're making an energy circle" type sites. Most unfortunate, because 5 years ago or so when there wasn't quite as much of this 2012 stuff around it was a lot easier to get the straight dope on their culture.

To me, that is the most offensive thing about all this, not the fact that feeble-minded people believe rubbish. That's a given anyway - I really don't care about them, they can have their little toys to keep them busy. I'd rather they believe the completely fabricated, non-reality-linked stuff, because they're really just taking a dump in our history books, obscuring the text.

Sporally
2010-Aug-24, 10:56 PM
Nicely said :)

HenrikOlsen
2010-Aug-26, 12:20 AM
Yeah, I think they may have had a corrective function.
One possible correction would be to simply, through observation, adjust which Haab' day number the new year starts on every Calendar Round.

Spoons
2010-Aug-26, 12:49 AM
That would seem like an appropriate measure.

Sporally
2010-Aug-26, 01:24 PM
One possible correction would be to simply, through observation, adjust which Haab' day number the new year starts on every Calendar Round.
"Haab' day number"?

HenrikOlsen
2010-Aug-26, 02:51 PM
The Maya calendar consists of two short cycles, the 260-day Tzolk'in cycle and the 365-day Haab' cycle, plus the long count.
Dates specified only by the two day numbers from the short cycles repeats precisely every 52 Haab'/73 Tzolk'in cycles. By then new years will have shifted about 13 days in the Haab' cycle which is definitely enough to notice.

Since the Haab' cycle was split into 18 "months" of 20 days plus 5 extra, and some of the 18 "months" were named for seasonal activities in a year that starts at winter solstice, it has been suggested that it was invented/started to be used around 550 BC, since that was the time the "month" names fit the season, and even though they must have realized fairly soon after that the calendar year shifted compared to the real year, they kept the count as exactly 365 days to a cycle.

Sporally
2010-Aug-26, 10:59 PM
OK, that way...

Lone Wolf
2010-Sep-01, 01:06 PM
Yeah, I think they may have had a corrective function. I think I may have read that somewhere a long time ago. The problem is that now, with all the woo folk posting stuff about it, any search for good, accurate info on the Mayan people and their ways is clouded by junk, false info and "hold my hands, we're making an energy circle" type sites. Most unfortunate, because 5 years ago or so when there wasn't quite as much of this 2012 stuff around it was a lot easier to get the straight dope on their culture.

To me, that is the most offensive thing about all this, not the fact that feeble-minded people believe rubbish. That's a given anyway - I really don't care about them, they can have their little toys to keep them busy. I'd rather they believe the completely fabricated, non-reality-linked stuff, because they're really just taking a dump in our history books, obscuring the text.

I know it can't be relied on for serious study/citations, but I'd think Wiki articles on the Maya would give you at least a better starting point for research into this - those knowledgeable in the topic do make some effort to make sure the information is fairly reliable, and provide links to sources you can use for further reading.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_civilization#Mathematics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_civilization#Astronomy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_calendar

I did a quick scan and didn't note anything to do with the 2012 hogwash.

Personal note : Interesting that there's at least some anecdotal evidence they discovered the Orion Nebula, pre-telescopes. Sharp eyes, and dark skies. If only we could get that these days :(

Makes me want to dig out my battered copy of the Popol Vuh.

Cavorite
2010-Sep-01, 01:49 PM
Personal note : Interesting that there's at least some anecdotal evidence they discovered the Orion Nebula, pre-telescopes. Sharp eyes, and dark skies. If only we could get that these days This bit confuses me somewhat, because I've been able to see the fuzziness of the nebula with the naked eye whenever I'm out of the city. To say that the Maya were the only pre-telescope culture to notice this seems a bit hard to believe. Perhaps they're the only ones to have made a note of it that has survived to modern times, but I'd find even that a surprise.

ETA: Well, there ya go


This nebula is currently visible to the unaided eye, yet oddly there is no mention of the nebulosity in the written astronomical records prior to the 17th century. In particular, neither Ptolemy in the Almagest nor Al Sufi in his Book of Fixed Stars noted this nebula, even though they both listed patches of nebulosity elsewhere in the night sky. Curiously this nebula was also not mentioned by Galileo, even though he made telescope observations of this part of the constellation in 1610 and 1617. This has led to some speculation that a flare-up of the illuminating stars may have increased the brightness of the nebula. So, yeah. Good eyes.

Spoons
2010-Sep-02, 05:18 AM
This bit confuses me somewhat, because I've been able to see the fuzziness of the nebula with the naked eye whenever I'm out of the city...

How far out of the city did you have to go? Any reasonable location in particular that you'd suggest? I've been thinking about it a bit lately, with better weather on the way I wouldn't mind heading up the hill (past Munarding etc, is that the sort of spot you might suggest?) some night to enjoy the view.

Cavorite
2010-Sep-02, 04:25 PM
How far out of the city did you have to go? Any reasonable location in particular that you'd suggest? I've been thinking about it a bit lately, with better weather on the way I wouldn't mind heading up the hill (past Munarding etc, is that the sort of spot you might suggest?) some night to enjoy the view.

I used to live out at Mundaring Weir 25 years ago, the skies were great. Not quite as good on my last visit up there, though that may just have been the luck of the draw on that particular night. If you head just a bit further east to near Perth Observatory at Bickley you've probably lost most of the city lights. Gingin is good, UWA just inaugurated a decent sized scope out there on the same site as the gravity wave observatory. Pinjarra/Serpentine is still reasonable, though no idea for how much longer. I was there the last time I saw Comet McNaught, there was a faint but clearly visible tail that seemed to take up half the sky. Of course if you don't mind a bit of a commute the Forrest Highway opens up the possibility of wonderful country skies that would have been just a bit too far away for comfort a couple of years ago.

Spoons
2010-Sep-02, 11:56 PM
Yeah, I was thinking maybe using the Forrest Highway to find a spot. That's my highway! I built it! Well, one of many, plus I'm an office monkey. A few mates and I are looking at heading down to the end of the highway, around the intersection with Old Coast Road, for some fishing soon. I might make the most of it then.

I still have a soft spot for viewing up the hill - I grew up for most the first 13 years of my life in Darlington, so that area really does it for me.

Thanks for the tips. Sorry everyone else for the off topic sway, but I wanted to grab the opportunity to check that with Cavorite.

Sporally
2010-Sep-19, 08:28 AM
How far out of the city did you have to go? Any reasonable location in particular that you'd suggest? I've been thinking about it a bit lately, with better weather on the way I wouldn't mind heading up the hill (past Munarding etc, is that the sort of spot you might suggest?) some night to enjoy the view.
It's easy to spot - i can find it even in a small town where i used to live. You could, however barely, see a difference between the stars and the nebula, though not much of a difference, but enough for astronomers in pre-telescope times to mark it as something else than stars.