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jokergirl
2009-Nov-16, 02:02 PM
My mom just forwarded me a mail warning of the additive Squalene used in the H1N1 vaccines, which supposedly has been linked to Gulf War Syndrome.

A quick wiki search gave these results:
- Yes, Squalene antibodies have been found in one study to be present in GWS sufferers with a 95% bigger likelihood,
- but Squalene hasn't even been used in all the vaccines used at that time.
- Also, it has been used in civilian vaccines for over a decade and there didn't seem to be an increase of PTSS in the normal population (though they might not have looked for it - are there any numbers on increase of stress-related disabilities in the last decade? :P)

Does anyone have more data with which to support or debunk this piece of scaremongery?

;)

Eta C
2009-Nov-16, 02:23 PM
It's just another canard from the anti-vax crowd. Squalene just sounds so nasty it has to be bad for you, Right? (EWWWW, they're injecting squalene into me.)

The reality. It's a chemical that is produced naturally by most living organisms. It's added to vaccines as an adjuvant, something that allows the vaccine to induce immunity while injecting less of the antigen. For a description take a look at this entry from the blog Terra Sigillata (http://scienceblogs.com/terrasig/2009/10/what_is_squalene.php)

ETA: By the way, apparently the version of the H1N1 vaccine used in the US does not contain any adjuvents. Those in Europe do contain squalene, however.

grant hutchison
2009-Nov-16, 02:26 PM
We all contain squalene, all the time. It's a normal metabolite, part of the cholesterol synthesis pathway. Many of us have squalene antibodies, whether or not we have received vaccines containing squalene.

The CDC says (http://www.cdc.gov/H1N1flu/vaccination/pregnant_qa.htm) that there is no squalene adjuvant in H1N1 vaccine in the USA.

In Europe we've been using squalene adjuvant for years, without problems. See the WHO information page (http://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/topics/adjuvants/squalene/questions_and_answers/en/index.html) for more details.

Grant Hutchison

bebe7
2009-Nov-16, 02:48 PM
My mom just forwarded me a mail warning of the additive Squalene used in the H1N1 vaccines, which supposedly has been linked to Gulf War Syndrome.

A quick wiki search gave these results:
- Yes, Squalene antibodies have been found in one study to be present in GWS sufferers with a 95% bigger likelihood,
- but Squalene hasn't even been used in all the vaccines used at that time.
- Also, it has been used in civilian vaccines for over a decade and there didn't seem to be an increase of PTSS in the normal population (though they might not have looked for it - are there any numbers on increase of stress-related disabilities in the last decade? :P)

Does anyone have more data with with to support or debunk this piece of scaremongery?

;)

Commercially derived from shark liver oil.

HenrikOlsen
2009-Nov-16, 03:32 PM
botanic sources (primarily vegetable oils) are used as well, including amaranth seed, rice bran, wheat germ, and olives.

publius
2009-Nov-17, 04:17 AM
There was one thing about adjuvants that caught my eye a while back, and that was autoimmune disease (I have rheumatoid arthritis -- it's in remission now, but the damage to my right knee has been done). What does an adjuvant do? It increases the immune response to an antigen? Now, what if does that to self-antigens? It might trigger an autoimmune response.

Squalene can induce the equivalent of rheumatoid arthritis in rats (some rat "strains" are apparently very susceptible to autoimmune disease and are used for research). Here's a couple of the studies on this from 2000 and 2004

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10854227

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15196244

And here's one where mineral oils with adjuvant properties caused lupus-like autoantibodies in rats:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WHC-48TMCJ6-3&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=09de45eb27f4bc149439b0a4b0ddc2bb


The question is can it do the same thing in humans? Europe has been using adjuvants for some time and I don't think a higher incidence of autoimmune disease has be yet observed, but this is something to be aware of.

-Richard

mugaliens
2009-Nov-17, 06:27 AM
botanic sources (primarily vegetable oils) are used as well, including amaranth seed, rice bran, wheat germ, and olives.

And humans! All higher organisms produce squalene. It's a natural and vital part of the synthesis of cholesterold, steroid hormones, and vitamin D in we humans.

It's used as an immunologic adjuvant in vaccines, because it increases the immune system response to the vaccine.


The question is can it do the same thing in humans? Europe has been using adjuvants for some time and I don't think a higher incidence of autoimmune disease has be yet observed, but this is something to be aware of.

My only concern involves different pathways in our bodies. We're obviously part squalene, but where? It could be that injecting squalene intramuscularly puts it where it doesn't belong, and in so doing, may trigger an immune response to the squalene itself. It may also be that close association with the vaccine compound may confuse the immune system into responding to both the vaccine and the squalene.

More research required...

jokergirl
2009-Nov-17, 09:01 AM
Good point. I was wondering about this mechanism as well, and I also arrived at the "where it doesn't belong" conclusion, but I'd like to know more.

Olive oil among other things also contains squalene, and didn't kids used to be given fish liver oil for health?

About vaccines in Europe, I don't *think* there has been an actual higher rate of autoimmune disorders than what can be expected with increased pollution and increased diagnoses versus just shutting up and suffering. But those factors combined may well hide a "silent" increase. Also, the effect may be longer in coming out than the 12-odd years this has been practiced.

;)

publius
2009-Nov-17, 09:49 AM
As near as I can gather, ingested squalene doesn't provoke an immune response. It's only when it's injected intramuscularly or subcutaneously that it stirs up an immune response.

That's how it has its adjuvant effect, causing the immune system to react against an antigen that's in too low a concentration (or for other reasons) to activate the system.

Why does it do that? Well, the immune system is complex little bugger, one that evolved in complex ways. If it gets too excited, that's bad, and if it doesn't get excited enough when it needs to, it's bad too. So apparently, when there's a real infection that needs to be responded to, the system have evolved to respond not just to the antigen, but other little molecules present from pathogens as well.

In looking at this just now I read over some complex diagram of how T cells get activated as it relates to this. Present it with an antigen alone, and it doesn't respond the same way as when one of the adjuvant factors is present.

Now, in the rats at least, that adjuvant mechanism gets the autoimmune malfunction going too -- it apparently causes a reaction that wouldn't otherwise occur to the "self-antigens" that get the autoimmune disease process going.


-Richard

JohnD
2009-Nov-17, 10:22 AM
Just had my swine flu vaccine last week, two weeks after my seasonal flu jab.
I happen to work with a Gulf War veteran, who scoffed when I remarked that my immediate reaction had been a slightly sore arm, to both.
Imminently before the depature of his regiment for the Gulf, they were given five vaccinations at once, three of them live vaccine. He couldn't remember for sure, but we reconstructed cholera, anthrax, typhoid, hepatitis A and B. He does remember that the whole battalion was incapable of combat for five days.
So, I'm doing my bit for herd immunity.
JOhn

Gillianren
2009-Nov-17, 06:07 PM
Graham has a smallpox vaccination scar that he didn't used to have.

korjik
2009-Nov-17, 06:54 PM
AAAHGG! Squalene is going to kill us all. Well they arent getting me! There is no way that I am taking any of that stuff!*

*Never mind that I am in the US and wouldnt get any anyway.
*Never mind that I already got it.

:D

grant hutchison
2009-Nov-17, 06:57 PM
Graham has a smallpox vaccination scar that he didn't used to have.Sounds like the start of an X Files episode.
How (and why!) did he get a recent smallpox vaccination?

Grant Hutchison

Gillianren
2009-Nov-17, 07:27 PM
Sounds like the start of an X Files episode.
How (and why!) did he get a recent smallpox vaccination?

The army had him vaccinated before they shipped him overseas.

grant hutchison
2009-Nov-17, 07:36 PM
The army had him vaccinated before they shipped him overseas.Well, well.
I presume they're worried about what has happened to the old Soviet smallpox stocks on Vozrozhdeniya Island.

Grant Hutchison

Perikles
2009-Nov-17, 07:38 PM
What does all this have to do with squalene triangles? :confused:

Gillianren
2009-Nov-17, 09:00 PM
Well, well.
I presume they're worried about what has happened to the old Soviet smallpox stocks on Vozrozhdeniya Island.

I do, too, but if they told him, he doesn't remember. Or possibly care.

publius
2009-Nov-18, 12:41 AM
The worst reaction I ever had was to a Tetnus shot some years ago after I stumbled and had an encounter with a rusty nail in a piece of lumber while tearing down something.

My arm starting getting sore the next day. By the second day it was so sore I couldn't move it. I sort of let it hang down and waddled around. It abated the next day, but I'll always remember that.


-Richard

grant hutchison
2009-Nov-18, 12:43 AM
My arm starting getting sore the next day. By the second day it was so sore I couldn't move it. I sort of let it hang down and waddled around. It abated the next day, but I'll always remember that.Compare and contrast with having tetanus. :)

Grant Hutchison

HenrikOlsen
2009-Nov-18, 12:52 AM
That stiffness is a fairly common reaction to a tetanus shot I think, I've had a similar reaction every time I got one.
And yes, I'll prefer that to having tetanus any time.