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Human Being
2004-Feb-29, 08:27 AM
Note to debunkers - address ONLY the content of the website listed.

http://www.ips.gov.au/IPSHosted/neo/des/overview.htm


"The third angel sounded his trumpet,
and a great star, blazing like a torch,
fell from the sky on a third of the rivers
and on the springs of water
- the name of the star is Wormwood."
Revelation 8:10-11
I am not here to spar with any Bad Members. I just want to see
how such persons react to a "non-woowoo" website specifically
mentioning certain things which are always associated with a
certain person, who seems to be the preferred crutch/red herring
around these parts. Anyway, just in case someone out there can
actually take this post seriously, instead of taking the easy way
out like so many here do... check out Project Wormwood.

See ya around.

Archer17
2004-Feb-29, 10:00 AM
Note to Human Being .. what a coincidence. I posted about Wormwood myself. Same link too. Difference? I don't have to tell people how to address what I post. Maybe it's a Human Being thing, eh? You know what I mean .. missionary work from a doom & gloom card-carrying woowoo that's full of himself. Must be a slow night in woowoo-ville. Tell me, you still hate this board? I think your obsessed myself. Do you eat foods you hate too? :wink:

Human Being
2004-Feb-29, 10:14 AM
Look, Archer - Phil Plait himself is above
the kindergarten debate strategy you're
implementing. Maybe ask him to speak
on behalf of people like you, who can't
say anything constructive. At least I'd
expect the Bad Astro himself to be nice.
You, I only expect verbal abuse from.

Oh yeah...
Ad hominem based nonresponse noted.

Ut
2004-Feb-29, 10:19 AM
What's so constructive about the things you've been saying?

Human Being
2004-Feb-29, 10:43 AM
Another non-response noted. Sigh.

I hope y'all aren't trying to distract this thread.

It's supposed to be about the Learmonth Solar
Observatory and specifically Project Wormwood.

If you'd like to discuss personal matters, by all
means please address me privately with them.

Peter B
2004-Feb-29, 11:24 AM
Note to debunkers - address ONLY the content of the website listed.

http://www.ips.gov.au/IPSHosted/neo/des/overview.htm


"The third angel sounded his trumpet,
and a great star, blazing like a torch,
fell from the sky on a third of the rivers
and on the springs of water
- the name of the star is Wormwood."
Revelation 8:10-11
I am not here to spar with any Bad Members. I just want to see
how such persons react to a "non-woowoo" website specifically
mentioning certain things which are always associated with a
certain person, who seems to be the preferred crutch/red herring
around these parts. Anyway, just in case someone out there can
actually take this post seriously, instead of taking the easy way
out like so many here do... check out Project Wormwood.

See ya around.

I was interested that an Australian Government agency would directly quote the Bible. That's unusual. But the idea of naming something after a very specific cultural reference isn't unusual in Australia. For example, quite a few projects have names drawn from various Australian Aboriginal words.

R.A.F.
2004-Feb-29, 03:49 PM
I just want to see how such persons react to a "non-woowoo" website specifically
mentioning certain things...

Sure, no problem, though I don't quite understand the point of your post.

So, some Astronomers use a verse from Revelation to name their project...SO WHAT!!! Astronomers have used mythological names for projects before...no big deal.

Like I said, What's your point?

freddo
2004-Feb-29, 11:40 PM
So, some Astronomers use a verse from Revelation to name their project...SO WHAT!!! Astronomers have used mythological names for projects before...no big deal.

In fact, according to Hoagland we do it so often that it's part of a conspiracy! :o

I too fail to see what it is you've brought to the table here HB. Did you just want to share the info? Fine - Project Wormwood is a heartening indication that at least some parties take the threat of NEO's seriously.

But because I know you a little better than that - I'm inclined to think it was the words "Planetary Defence" that sparked your interest (and the scripture that really rang your bell). Which means I wonder another thing - why the lack of conviction to state your opinion? I know you're fond of it and usually not afraid to share...

The Bad Astronomer
2004-Feb-29, 11:58 PM
Given that Wormwood represented death from the sky, it's a wholly appropriate name for a group that watches for potentially impacting asteroids.

This is part of the whole "Chicken Little" aspect of pseudoscientific doomcrying that really irritates me: overlooking the obvious, and then making it seem like part of the huge conspiracy. :evil:

dgruss23
2004-Mar-01, 01:14 AM
I guess I would be interested in knowing what Human Being thinks is the significance of this Wormwood website - especially with regard to its relevance to the PX forum.

freddo
2004-Mar-01, 01:29 AM
See here (http://www.osasleuths.org/Main/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=11516#115 16)

Still hard to work out what they believe is going on aside from a general buzz - but this helps a bit.

The Bad Astronomer
2004-Mar-01, 02:28 AM
Ah yes, the One Step Ahead forum. Tuatha is a moderator, and he has spouted as much or more nonsense than most. I wrote my SOHO page (http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/misc/planetx/soho.html) in part due to his claims about cosmic rays and comets in SOHO images.

Human Being
2004-Mar-01, 04:26 AM
This is part of the whole "Chicken Little" aspect of pseudoscientific doomcrying that really irritates me: overlooking the obvious, and then making it seem like part of the huge conspiracy. :evil:
That is part of the whole "ad hominem" aspect of mainstream debunkery that really irritates me: overlooking anything non-mainstream, and then making it seem like that has nothing to do with a huge conspiracy. :-"

(do y'all like it when someone plays your game? or do you just want them gone?)

Obviously, I'm not here to agree with y'all, nor to convince y'all to agree with me. Why am I here then? Good question. As I first indicated, I was interested in the reaction of the membership here to Project Wormwood. Yes, I anticipated being called a troll, and worse. I anticipated certain responses, but still wanted to read what the "game" members would actually write. You see, y'all sound much different talking amongst yourselves, than talking to someone who isn't "accepted amongst the ranks". I knew that the posts already present on BABB regarding Project Wormwood would be primarily a "woowoo bashing fest". Even if I devoted all my heart and mind into trying to open an "honest" dialogue here, I don't believe that would make a difference. Why am I here then?

Good question?

The Bad Astronomer
2004-Mar-01, 04:44 AM
That is part of the whole "ad hominem" aspect of mainstream debunkery that really irritates me: overlooking anything non-mainstream, and then making it seem like that has nothing to do with a huge conspiracy. :-"


Perhaps you'd like to read my extensive pages debunking the entire Planet X theory before saying that I am using a simple ad hominem to dismiss anything against the mainstream. Also, you may care to look at the several tens of thousands of words I have written about non-mainstream theories. I am hardly ignoring them; in fact, to debunk them, I usually have to know the theories better than most of the people who espouse them.

I propose that you are the one engaging in ad hominems; it appears to me that you haven't looked much into the arguments against the conspiracy theories; arguments which, for example, show that Planet X, as told by Nancy Lieder, Mark Hazlewood, Sitchin and the rest cannot exist.

In fact, you haven't really said anything of substance on this board; you have simply called the debunkers names and tried to be irritating, as you just admitted. That is not the way business is done on this board. Here, we use evidence-based arguments to support or attack a theory. That's the way real science is done.

freddo
2004-Mar-01, 04:46 AM
Obviously, I'm not here to agree with y'all, nor to convince y'all to agree with me. Why am I here then? Good question. As I first indicated, I was interested in the reaction of the membership here to Project Wormwood. Yes, I anticipated being called a troll, and worse. I anticipated certain responses, but still wanted to read what the "game" members would actually write. You see, y'all sound much different talking amongst yourselves, than talking to someone who isn't "accepted amongst the ranks". I knew that the posts already present on BABB regarding Project Wormwood would be primarily a "woowoo bashing fest". Even if I devoted all my heart and mind into trying to open an "honest" dialogue here, I don't believe that would make a difference. Why am I here then?

HB, would you like to be my personal chef? I know I don't get enough salad in my current diet...


(do y'all like it when someone plays your game? or do you just want them gone?)

That's not playing the game, responding to this:


Given that Wormwood represented death from the sky, it's a wholly appropriate name for a group that watches for potentially impacting asteroids.

- the explanation for why the name might have been chosen, would have been playing the game. Instead, you again consign yourself to saying nothing.

Mars
2004-Mar-01, 05:08 AM
This is part of the whole "Chicken Little" aspect of pseudoscientific doomcrying that really irritates me: overlooking the obvious, and then making it seem like part of the huge conspiracy. :evil:
That is part of the whole "ad hominem" aspect of mainstream debunkery that really irritates me: overlooking anything non-mainstream, and then making it seem like that has nothing to do with a huge conspiracy. :-"

(do y'all like it when someone plays your game? or do you just want them gone?)

Obviously, I'm not here to agree with y'all, nor to convince y'all to agree with me. Why am I here then? Good question. As I first indicated, I was interested in the reaction of the membership here to Project Wormwood. Yes, I anticipated being called a troll, and worse. I anticipated certain responses, but still wanted to read what the "game" members would actually write. You see, y'all sound much different talking amongst yourselves, than talking to someone who isn't "accepted amongst the ranks". I knew that the posts already present on BABB regarding Project Wormwood would be primarily a "woowoo bashing fest". Even if I devoted all my heart and mind into trying to open an "honest" dialogue here, I don't believe that would make a difference. Why am I here then?

Good question?

You post a link, somehow this fits into some theory that you have in your mind and you ask people to respond to what? A name. Then you proceed to attack people instead of supporting whatever idea you may have.

Perhaps you should be a bit more clear in what you mean to discuss and then present evidence. If your evidence appears to be bogus after the discussion, then accept it or move on. You sir seem to be the one playing games.

Ut
2004-Mar-01, 05:25 AM
"Put up or shut up" always goes unheeded by those who have neither anything to show, nor to say. Why, then, they insist on talking has always confused me.

Peter B
2004-Mar-01, 06:31 AM
That is part of the whole "ad hominem" aspect of mainstream debunkery that really irritates me: overlooking anything non-mainstream, and then making it seem like that has nothing to do with a huge conspiracy. :-"

(do y'all like it when someone plays your game? or do you just want them gone?)

Obviously, I'm not here to agree with y'all, nor to convince y'all to agree with me. Why am I here then? Good question. As I first indicated, I was interested in the reaction of the membership here to Project Wormwood. Yes, I anticipated being called a troll, and worse. I anticipated certain responses, but still wanted to read what the "game" members would actually write. You see, y'all sound much different talking amongst yourselves, than talking to someone who isn't "accepted amongst the ranks". I knew that the posts already present on BABB regarding Project Wormwood would be primarily a "woowoo bashing fest". Even if I devoted all my heart and mind into trying to open an "honest" dialogue here, I don't believe that would make a difference. Why am I here then?

Good question?

G'day Human Being

As I mentioned in my last post, there are any number of Australian government projects which adopt a culturally significant name in some way related to the project.

For a couple of very minor examples:

- The police launch on Cocos Island (Indian Ocean) is called (IIRC) the Putri Duyong. However it's spelled, it's Malay for Sea Mermaid. The majority of the people living on Cocos Island are of Malay descent, so it's a name they can relate to.

- The town where most of Australia's rocket research was carried out is called Woomera. This is an Aboriginal word for a spear thrower - something which helps you to launch something else.

So it doesn't particularly surprise me that an Australian Government sponsored project to look for objects in space which might harm the Earth could be named for an object in mythology which came from space to harm the Earth.

Archer17
2004-Mar-01, 08:17 AM
Noticing a trend here H.B.? Maybe next time you decide to "grace" us with a visit, you'll do your homework first. I find it funny that anyone can actually think an NEO-detection program like Project Wormwood must have ominous implications. I also find it curious that people that try to promote that line of reasoning seem ignorant of (or deliberately ignore) the fact that there are other initiatives, both current and planned, that do the same thing. Why no mention of these less ominous-sounding initiatives, hmm? The fact that this has been overlooked by woowoo boards and their role-models speaks volumes about their astronomical ignorance and/or agenda. Same thing applies to the two comets that you, your board denizens, and other prophets of fear are crowing about. The main page of this website addresses these 2 comets along with pertinent links .. go educate yourself.

N C More
2004-Mar-01, 01:23 PM
Why no mention of these less ominous-sounding initiatives, hmm? The fact that this has been overlooked by woowoo boards and their role-models speaks volumes about their astronomical ignorance and/or agenda. Same thing applies to the two comets that you, your board denizens, and other prophets of fear are crowing about. The main page of this website addresses these 2 comets along with pertinent links .. go educate yourself.

I don't think Human Being came here to present us with any empirical evidence nor with any desire to further his education. His point was to use the Australian NEO stations choice of Biblical name as an affirmation of his personal faith based beliefs.

Human Being hints that he knows more than us and is in fact in possession of some sort of greater knowledge (this knowledge being Biblical prophecy). The logic is (if one could call it that) that because the Australian NEO station adopted a Biblical name then they must, in fact, believe this prophecy to be truthful as well.

Now, everyone is entitled to their religious beliefs but one is not entitled to denegrate those who do not choose to believe as you do. It would be very rude of me to enter a BB that openly labels itself as a religious site and begin to demand scientific proof for their beliefs! BABB openly states that this is a scientific site...enough said.

sts60
2004-Mar-01, 01:41 PM
Note to debunkers - address ONLY the content of the website listed.

http://www.ips.gov.au/IPSHosted/neo/des/overview.htm


"The third angel sounded his trumpet,
and a great star, blazing like a torch,
fell from the sky on a third of the rivers
and on the springs of water
- the name of the star is Wormwood."
Revelation 8:10-11
I am not here to spar with any Bad Members. I just want to see
how such persons react to a "non-woowoo" website specifically
mentioning certain things which are always associated with a
certain person, who seems to be the preferred crutch/red herring
around these parts. Anyway, just in case someone out there can
actually take this post seriously, instead of taking the easy way
out like so many here do... check out Project Wormwood.

See ya around.

OK, my reactions:

1. I think it's good that there's another resource added to the effort to track objects that might hit the Earth.
2. It's good policy from a risk management standpoint - allocating resources (not enough yet, IMHO) towards the characterization of something we know to be low probability but large "impact".
3. "Wormwood" is a clever and appropriate name for a project guarding against things falling on us from space. Space-related projects often use names from mythology.

Did that answer your question? Actually, what was your question, other than wanting reaction from people on this board?

Gmann
2004-Mar-01, 02:19 PM
Quote:
"The third angel sounded his trumpet,
and a great star, blazing like a torch,
fell from the sky on a third of the rivers
and on the springs of water
- the name of the star is Wormwood."
Revelation 8:10-11


Neat stuff on their site, however (there's always a however), the reference in Rev 8:10-11 is explained in greater detail in Isaiah 14. More specifically Isa 14:12. This falling star is not an asteroid, it is Lucifer. In any case, there is a way we can avoid this tragedy. If any one discovers a potentially dangerous asteroid, comet, or planetoid, DON'T NAME IT WORMWOOD! That way, we can avoid the whole thing. Problem solved. 8)

Human Being
2004-Mar-01, 03:06 PM
I appreciate everyone's contributions, though it may not seem like I do.
Yeah, I know. You want me to say something you can "attack". No way.

While I understand that I haven't said much for y'all to base your words
upon, I don't understand why some of you think you know me so well.

Just like you don't understand why I think I know some of you so well.
Guess we'll just have to wait and see, I mean not see, who isn't right.

Gmann
2004-Mar-01, 03:17 PM
You want me to say something you can "attack".

Not really, we want you to say...something. This thread is dedicated to a site called "Project Wormwood". These people are scanning the skies looking for possible inbound objects that may pose a threat. So what! They are not the only ones, there are many others. These guys have decided to make their work known, and set up a website. All I can say is =D> . What is your point?

R.A.F.
2004-Mar-01, 03:47 PM
You want me to say something you can "attack".

Not really, we want you to say...something. This thread is dedicated to a site called "Project Wormwood". These people are scanning the skies looking for possible inbound objects that may pose a threat. So what! They are not the only ones, there are many others. These guys have decided to make their work known, and set up a website. All I can say is =D> . What is your point?

Yeah, what is your point, H.B.?? I asked the same question, yesterday, and I'm still waiting for an answer!! I'm NOT attacking you, I just want you to "state your case"...now do so!!

N C More
2004-Mar-01, 05:06 PM
Guess we'll just have to wait and see, I mean not see, who isn't right.

This sounds like a good solution to me, Im willing to wait. BTW, if we still exist after July 4th or 5th what would that mean? I suspect it would mean that God decided to spare us (not that you were in any way mistaken).

To paraphrase the Borg, "discussion is futile".

Captain Kidd
2004-Mar-01, 05:29 PM
Ok, ignoring everybody else's comments, I took the time during lunch to look around the site. First off, the only thing I got from the site is that they're looking for potentially hazardous asteroids. Nothing on planets, especially PX, not even a joke about it.

As per your request to see how we react to a "non-woowoo" site. Well... noble cause. They're not even saying there is anything out there that's going to hit us, just the chance of it and thus the goal to find it if it is.

What are these "certain things" you refer too? The name Wormwood and the quote from Revelations?

It would be completely different if they were pointing at a specific asteroid and saying, "This is the asteroid from the Bible. It is going to hit Earth on [insert date]." Especially considering that Wormwood is suppose to do more than just fall "on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water" They didn't even finish verse 11, "A third of the waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter. " Which hints that the damage done by Wormwood is not from the impact but from contaminating the world's water supply. I'm no expert, but I doubt most asteroids contain enough contaminants to do that. It'd take what? A lot of heavy metals or poisonous substances which would burn off in entry.

But that word can cast a lot of fear into people, so it's a good leverage to use to pry balky government fingers off of needed funds. "Do you really want to risk that prediction coming true?"

But mainly, I think they just have a sense of humor, as the link to the picture of the Millennium Falcon zooming away from an exploding Death Star suggests. Theyíre looking for asteroids that have a chance of hitting Earth, the Bible has a passage about an asteroid hitting Earth complete with a name, so why not use it? Itís not like it hasnít been done before.

There's also a reference to the Phoenix in there too.

And if the "certain person" has the initials NL; well, the squeaky wheel gets the grease and she's the biggest squeaker around.

There's my two cents, take it or leave it.

[edited to take out some redundant comments, great use in nuke plant design, makes you look like an idoit if talking.]

Jim
2004-Mar-01, 07:12 PM
Given that Wormwood represented death from the sky, it's a wholly appropriate name for a group that watches for potentially impacting asteroids.

Oh, right, that works, too.

I thought it was a reference to Wormwood Scrubs prison and Australia's start as a penal colony...

SarahMc
2004-Mar-01, 07:19 PM
You want me to say something you can "attack".

Not really, we want you to say...something. This thread is dedicated to a site called "Project Wormwood". These people are scanning the skies looking for possible inbound objects that may pose a threat. So what! They are not the only ones, there are many others. These guys have decided to make their work known, and set up a website. All I can say is =D> . What is your point?

Exactly. You have an observatory (Learmonth) that sets up a small dome with an amateur class telescope, mount (albeit an excellent mount) and imager/software to autonomously grab images of known objects for astrometry/photometry, and inthe meanwhile also look for new objects on those images.

They happen to name the new project "Wormwood" after a biblical reference (as some claim) to a celestial object that has never been seen or imaged. They provide the quote from the bible to illustrate where the project name came from. There are hundreds,if not thousands of amateurs who have similar equipment (some much better) that do the same type of work, as well as government assisted projects (LINEAR, NEAT, etc).

All this boils down to a poorly derived hyposthesis based on the name they chose for their project. If it was solar observatory, or an x-ray observatory, would the same hypothesis apply? How about if they named it "Oprah"?

JohnW
2004-Mar-01, 07:33 PM
How about if they named it "Oprah"?

Aargh! Incoming!

nanojath
2004-Mar-01, 09:05 PM
While I understand that I haven't said much for y'all to base your words
upon, I don't understand why some of you think you know me so well.

Just like you don't understand why I think I know some of you so well.
Guess we'll just have to wait and see, I mean not see, who isn't right.

Like many here I'm having trouble figuring out what your point is. To break it down, you've asked for a reaction to a site about searching for potential celestial objects that could strike the earth. There is nothing remotely outside the mainstream about this; heck, there was a Nova special not that long ago where a number of perfectly sober astronomers talked about how we should be looking more carefully for these kinds of things, with a view towards preventing catastrophic impacts in the future.

For the most part the response has been to-the-point and reasonably civil. To the degree their is some friction, well, there is a lot of frankly hostile content in your posts. For example:

"Note to debunkers - address ONLY the content of the website listed." In addition to the irritating tone of command (you have no place visiting a forum and telling people "I want to talk about this but you can ONLY discuss this aspect of it"), the term "debunkers" is almost always used by opponents of sites like Bad Astronomy to imply hypothetical individuals engaged in hiding real information for pay. In a word it's calling a person a liar and a traitor, so at the least it is a very poor choice of address.

"...who seems to be the preferred crutch/red herring
around these parts..." The purpose of this forum is to discuss Planet X, and it flourished when Nancy Lieder was the principle instigator/deseminator of this idea. Calling it a crutch suggests we're avoiding something, but what? The other rogue planet proponents, all the way back to Sitchin get their play here too. The use of the term "Red Herring" again implies that you are making a general accusation that people are purposely lying and engaged in some kind of cover-up. Why does it surprise you that people are offended by this kind of language? Why do you expect polite, open response in return?

"Anyway, just in case someone out there can
actually take this post seriously, instead of taking the easy way
out like so many here do... " That's an insulting thing to say and clearly inaccurate: nobody can vouche for the behavior of everyone in any open forum but my experience as a frequent poster and participant here is that any reasonable topic that hasn't already been discussed to death (e.g. are five thousand pictures of lens flare any more convincing that five pictures of lens flare?) can get reasonable discussion. People looked at your link and said: yes, we agree that comets and asteroids have impacted the earth in the past and will do so again in the future and that more thorough investigation of the skies could locate a preventable impact candidate. What's the point? What is the point, Human Being?"

So there follow a couple not very friendly responses. There are also a whole lot of very reasonable responses - but while you claim several times to be only interested in a dialog, you only respond to the hostile responses. You ignore the reasonable responses, the valid questions about what it is you see in this website that is of particular significance - you're so focussed on the idea that you're being attacked and not being given a fair hearing that you completely ignore the discussion.

So once again:

"While I understand that I haven't said much for y'all to base your words
upon, I don't understand why some of you think you know me so well."
Take a tour through the Planet X posts and you'll see that we've had a great number of discussions just like this: somebody comes in with a point of questionable significance and a hostile attitude. Some people cop to the hostile attitude and talk back, others take a look at the point and demonstrate that it is of little significance - and the person who started it focuses on scrapping with the backtalkers and ignores the serious responses, all the while complaining about the lack of serious response(you haven't once, I would again note, answered any of the responses that there is nothing unusual or suggestive about the site you linked). People are acting like they know you because for all intents and purposes they do. You are behaving in exactly the same unpleasant and unproductive way we have seen dozens of times before. I'm not attacking the man, Mr. or Ms. ad hominem - I'm addressing the actions - as stated, right here, in black and white, plain and simple. To wit: posting material of questionable significance in a hostile manner, focusing on personality scraps rather than serious discussion, and refusing to respond to reasonable criticism. All you have to do now is bail out on the thread completely and you've pretty much given us the whole usual routine.

"Just like you don't understand why I think I know some of you so well.
Guess we'll just have to wait and see, I mean not see, who isn't right." Oh yes. To the list of crummy posting behavior detailed in the previous paragraph add being pointlessly cryptic. So here's a nice, straightforward, no-nonsense question right back at you: wait for how long? A lot of us were willing to wait until late Summer of 2003, just for the sake of argument, after repeated assurances that Nancy Lieder's Planet X would be here then, absolutely, no excuses. The doomsday predictors are running a big old goose-egg on the basis of thousands of years of predictions of global catastrophe and/or the end of the world. What exactly are we waiting for? We don't have any problem here putting our thoughts plainly and in plain English. Why do you?

Human Being
2004-Mar-02, 10:20 PM
Obviously my point wasn't to make any point at all.
Obviously I did want to observe reactions.
Label my actions as you wish to.
I came, I saw, I learned.
What'd you do?

Adieu.
HB

dgruss23
2004-Mar-02, 11:22 PM
What'd you do?



Laughed ... a lot! Thank you! These threads have been entertaining.

Captain Kidd
2004-Mar-03, 03:06 AM
Yeah, I rather enjoyed finding out about that site actually, and watching HB's antics has been a nice bit of laughter too.