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astromark
2010-Jan-20, 06:37 AM
Before you read any of this little thought process of mine do be aware that if you are a sensitive person with devout religious doctrines entrenched as such that any divergent opinion will find offence then stop reading NOW. It is not my intention to embarrass, offend, or even cast doubt on any persons belief structure.
We are not encouraged to talk of things so as to avoid the unpleasantness that some see as essential in such issues. I am wanting to avoid any unpleasantness. But ...
I do so want to air this as a test of logic not faith. I am a man of science and want no part of a discussion regarding matters of faith. So if you want that discussion...go open your own page.
Just to make clear that my knowledge of these things is dangerously thin... and might be error ridden.
I can not quote as ignorance prohibits me but, I do have a clear memory of some biblical texts that seem to support the idea of angels and things descending to earth. Of loud noises and thunderous bush shaking. Of wheels within wheels and fire in the sky...sort of things. Visions or dreams...I know not. Yes yes I know its not new as Erick Von whats his name said the same sort of thing and went on to say far to much and go far to far with this idea. In conclusion he did more damage to what could be a good idea than was sensible.
Taking into consideration all of this then could it be that in a time period about a thousand years BC that we were in fact visited by intelligent beings and that they came and went while leaving deliberate attempts at guiding a savage society that were not ready for them yet. That across the globe societies seem to have been given guidance, rules and advice.
Understanding and tolerance please. Its just balloon floating really. I do want to here what others think of this... Is it just remotely possible that in humanities distant past we were given a push...and if you think that is so, or even possible. Where is the proof ?

jokergirl
2010-Jan-20, 09:24 AM
It's not a new idea, and not a completely impossible one either. You mentioned Däniken, but Clarke (and numerous other Sci-fi writers) also plays with the idea, and nobody here thinks he's stupid.

It's just that until we find that UFO or ancient computer, there's nothing really that makes it plausible or provable either.

Some people might argue technology that people can't "possibly" have had a long time ago. But I don't think I have ever seen any of the kind. We have all heard "ancient batteries" and the like, but nothing really makes those implausible. People 5000 years ago were not less intelligent than people now are, even though we tend to equate tech level with intelligence. Those two are unrelated. It's not implausible that people would invent something, then the technology vanishes for hundreds of years and is only reinvented now. In fact, I think it happened all the time.

Other than that - what ideas would you have about a proof? Däniken's aliens on cavepaintings? Strange DNA segments that aren't matched by any living species on Earth, proving interbreeding with "angels"? None have been found yet, either.

;)

NorthernBoy
2010-Jan-20, 11:06 AM
Taking into consideration all of this then could it be that in a time period about a thousand years BC that we were in fact visited by intelligent beings and that they came and went while leaving deliberate attempts at guiding a savage society that were not ready for them yet. That across the globe societies

Savage? We have written records of life at that period, and none of it mentions alien visitation.

Also, I'm not sure what point you are getting at by saying that we are not supposed to talk about such "unpleasant" things. There are no such taboos, and in fact you'll find bookshops stuffed with books peddling the idea to hippies in most towns.

rommel543
2010-Jan-20, 05:11 PM
We equate things we see that we don't understand with things that we see everyday and do understand. If you took a F-16 back to the Roman Era they would call it a " great iron bird, belching fire and screaming as it flew across the sky". Firing off the guns or missiles would be "calling forth the fires of Hades to rent earth and mans flesh". Anyone climbing out of it would be the embodiment of one of their gods. They didn't understand the idea of creating a plane and flying around, let alone jet propulsion, firearms, etc. It's not that these people were unintelligent. In fact the creation of much, if not all of the equipment on that plane depends on the invention of the mathematics they were working on in that era.

If a UFO, time traveler in a flying type machine, etc ever came down during the time of strong Catholic/Christian religion the person/people witnessing the even would equate it to what they understand: great wheels of fire, angels, gods wrath, etc.

astromark
2010-Jan-20, 07:27 PM
Not referring to general society; This forum has rules that that I am bending... Shhh...:eh:

Yes rommel543. You seem to have gained similar thoughts as I...
jokergirl; and I agree. Daniken went to far down this road.
Its likened to saying that Adolf Hitler was a eval madman... but some of what he did was good. Thinking of the autobahn.. motorway system. Nothing much else.:shifty:

My only point perhaps is just that no proof is apparent but it could be the simple explanation of why so many cultures have similar doctrines... or that people are smart and good ideas spread quickly. Its my opinion that the human species prevails because of our ability to adapt and prevail. You watch... As this environment becomes less friendly humanity will adapt to building cities on the sea floor or under ground... We will adapt as required. Its just an idea that will not go away. So many cultures seem to follow similar doctrines...could it just be coincidence ?
That some of this eledged history is recorded in the bible makes it difficult to challenge...I want to.

cosmocrazy
2010-Jan-20, 07:51 PM
Not referring to general society; This forum has rules that that I am bending... Shhh...:eh:

Yes rommel543. You seem to have gained similar thoughts as I...
jokergirl; and I agree. Daniken went to far down this road.
Its likened to saying that Adolf Hitler was a eval madman... but some of what he did was good. Thinking of the autobahn.. motorway system. Nothing much else.:shifty:

My only point perhaps is just that no proof is apparent but it could be the simple explanation of why so many cultures have similar doctrines... or that people are smart and good ideas spread quickly. Its my opinion that the human species prevails because of our ability to adapt and prevail. You watch... As this environment becomes less friendly humanity will adapt to building cities on the sea floor or under ground... We will adapt as required. Its just an idea that will not go away. So many cultures seem to follow similar doctrines...could it just be coincidence ?
That some of this eledged history is recorded in the bible makes it difficult to challenge...I want to.

There is plenty of evidence for human migration to have been the key to wide spread technology and culture similarities. I agree that it is a plausible idea that intelligent aliens have visited the earth in the past. Why not? we certainly would if we had the technology to do so. And if they came and found a primitive species like our ancestors of long ago then maybe they would try and guide and help to speed up advancements without too much interference. Just one thing.... we lack the evidence to support this idea, dam shame really, what a discovery that would be!

Fazor
2010-Jan-20, 08:10 PM
Just one thing.... we lack the evidence to support this idea, dam shame really, what a discovery that would be!

I'd say two things: as you mention, there's no evidence. But secondly, alien visitation theory is not something that is needed to make our history possible.

It's not like there's really some huge, impossible gap in our development that cannot be explained by human ability and ingenuity. That does not exclude alien visitation theory as impossible, obviously. But the history and development of human civilization is oft made more mysterious than it really is.

. . . which of course doesn't make our history any less amazing, interesting, or important.

sarongsong
2010-Jan-21, 12:46 AM
...could it be that in a time period about a thousand years BC that we were in fact visited by intelligent beings...Why the focus on this "time period"?

kleindoofy
2010-Jan-21, 01:11 AM
I have a funny feeling that there are some grave misconceptions about the Biblical texts and Biblical times afoot.

People today tend to view the period between, say, 700-2700 (i.e. including pre-Biblical periods) as aloof, far distant, terribly ancient, and hopelessly primitive.

The truth is that that period is very well documented. not only by the historical books of the OT (Kings, Chronicles, Prophets, etc.), but even more so by texts of the (at least) politically much more important areas. Egypt, Babylon, Assur, the Levant (excluding Judea), and the southern Arabian area.

While it may appear so to us today, back then Israel wasn't a big deal. It was a minor kingdom, one of many.

Many, resp. most aspects of life thoughout Egypt, the Levant, the Fertile Crescent, eastern Anatolia, and Mesopotamia are not behind a curtain of myths and ambiguous visions. As stated above, it's very well documented in correspondence amongst kings, personal letters, contracts, long distance trade documents, harvest records, revenue lists, etc., etc. Thousands and thousands and thousands of documents. Original documents.

Certain religious texts, Biblical and other, can be very elusive and it's often quite difficult, if not impossible, to understand many of the allusions they make, but one thing is very, very clear:

If aliens had been there, we would know it!

That wouldn't be left to ambiguous phrases. There would be direct, unambiguous records and most certainly depictions.

astromark
2010-Jan-21, 04:09 AM
Thank you all for the balance and Yes that would seem to be the logic I was seeking...
Until some actual tangible proof turns up... It sleeps as a it should.

Put to bed in a still fine and warm Wanganui Mark.

Atraveller
2010-Jan-21, 05:22 AM
People today tend to view the period between, say, 700-2700 (i.e. including pre-Biblical periods) as aloof, far distant, terribly ancient, and hopelessly primitive.

The truth is that that period is very well documented. not only by the historical books of the OT (Kings, Chronicles, Prophets, etc.), but even more so by texts of the (at least) politically much more important areas. Egypt, Babylon, Assur, the Levant (excluding Judea), and the southern Arabian area.

Certain religious texts, Biblical and other, can be very elusive and it's often quite difficult, if not impossible, to understand many of the allusions they make, but one thing is very, very clear:

If aliens had been there, we would know it!

That wouldn't be left to ambiguous phrases. There would be direct, unambiguous records and most certainly depictions.

I both agree and disagree - there are certain events which have been documented in texts such as the bible - which science is now confirming - but not exactly as described. (I'm thinking of the flood - and the 8.2Ky event - could the description of one, actually be the other?) The period when the "document" was only part of a verbal record may have changed the story slightly?

So Ezekiel's descriptions, Daniel's visions, etc.... could they be documenting real events, but in a primitive way, as rommel543 has suggested?

Jason_Roberts
2010-Jan-21, 11:10 AM
I think that there may have been many people who were witnesses to unexplained or natural aerial phenomena in what we could consider the ancient past. These could have been explained in mystical terms, conveyed through story-telling, and sometimes could have been integrated with religious belief systems. It's possibile that they were simply trying to explain away astronomical, meteorological and prosaic phenomena.

The belief in UFOs as something paranormal may not be unique to our current time period.

jokergirl
2010-Jan-21, 12:29 PM
I both agree and disagree - there are certain events which have been documented in texts such as the bible - which science is now confirming - but not exactly as described. (I'm thinking of the flood - and the 8.2Ky event - could the description of one, actually be the other?) The period when the "document" was only part of a verbal record may have changed the story slightly?

So Ezekiel's descriptions, Daniel's visions, etc.... could they be documenting real events, but in a primitive way, as rommel543 has suggested?

They could, certainly, but they're just records of the anecdotes of a few, single persons.

Now if numerous records from all over the place of similar things would turn up, that would be a cause for interest.
But they didn't, and so we just have to consider the possibility that Ezekiel had some really strange mushrooms for dinner some day.

;)

rommel543
2010-Jan-21, 02:25 PM
So Ezekiel's descriptions, Daniel's visions, etc.... could they be documenting real events, but in a primitive way, as rommel543 has suggested?

I'm not saying that the were documenting in a primitive way, I'm saying the wrote down in terms that they understood. If someone from ancient Mesopotamia was corresponding to a friend and was discussing the weather, they wouldn't write down that it was above 0c for the last week, they would more than likely say something like "the frost has not touched the crops yet". If they saw an F-16 they wouldn't have anything to directly compare it to. They're not going to say that it's similar to an F-18 but with a shorter fuselage and a single engine port. They would describe it in terms they understand and can relate to. What fly's in the air and has wings.. a bird. But birds have feathers and are much smaller, and this looks like its made of metal. Therefore an iron bird. The "iron bird" made a very large noise as it flew by very quickly. They wouldn't understand breaking the sound barrier, so the iron bird must have been roaring.

I'm not saying that they people were primitive or unintelligent, but they would still describe something in terms that they understand. If you had to explain a handgun to some one from 300 BC. How would describe it. Don't forget that gun powder wasn't invented in China until somewhere around 800 AD.

Michael Noonan
2010-Jan-21, 05:26 PM
It seems that we may well be the ones who are incapable of crediting the skills of humans before us. As for the battery jars has any one considered the discovery of an electric tickle through variant metals in a lemon might have inspired a torturer to expand the effect,

How much human civilization has centered around weapons use and inducement of pain. Like it or not domination and exploitation are powerful drivers. Columns of fire by night and smoke by day (or viky versa) had an estimated population of three million. to produce the effect. That is a lot of human and animal dung to burn if collected and an army of spiked chariots is a powerful incentive for even the most thick witted to devise a means of staying ahead of.

Finally history is in the view and opinion of the historian. Given the time and belief systems it would be unnatural to attribute victory to anything other than the Devine.