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View Full Version : Ideas for Haiti- I'll start and you guys add



banquo's_bumble_puppy
2010-Jan-25, 07:26 PM
Wind farms to sell energy (quakezone I know)
Cities and towns built in non-traditional ways.....

swampyankee
2010-Jan-25, 09:04 PM
Reforestation.

Sam5
2010-Jan-25, 11:21 PM
They speak French. They seem to be mostly nice people. Let France take it on as a project to turn it into a big international vacation spot, like many of the other islands in the Caribbean, and like Cancun.

mike alexander
2010-Jan-25, 11:39 PM
Somehow I don't see the idea of the French coming into Haiti and taking over the place being terribly popular.

Sam5
2010-Jan-25, 11:48 PM
I wouldn't mind. :)

novaderrik
2010-Jan-26, 03:06 AM
i say we assist them however we can, but ultimately they have to decide what they want their country to be like over the long haul. if they want to come out of this better than things were before the quake, then they have to take the initiative and make it better.

sarongsong
2010-Jan-26, 03:25 AM
Somehow I don't see the idea of the French coming in...being terribly popular.How about a nice Italian---with experience? :)
January 25, 2010
Italy's top disaster expert...Guido Bertolaso...arrived in Haiti on Friday...
- thestar.com (http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2010/1/25/worldupdates/2010-01-25T164837Z_01_NOOTR_RTRMDNC_0_-456623-1&sec=Worldupdates)

Chuck
2010-Jan-26, 03:34 AM
Rebuild the World Trade Center in Haiti. A bunch of shorter buildings might be best. They'd need to hire a lot of support staff. Hotels and restaurants would spring up around them. Money would flow in without them having to export anything.

mike alexander
2010-Jan-26, 03:57 AM
This is really depressing. The best solutions offered here are Yes Massah-ing as waiters at Sandals?

Although you might get some gringos back in after the stink of a couple of hundred thousand corpses dies down.

novaderrik
2010-Jan-26, 04:09 AM
http://www.theonion.com/content/news/massive_earthquake_reveals_entire

Sam5
2010-Jan-26, 04:33 AM
French Martinique in the Caribbean:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0i8kDUyGLMQ

danscope
2010-Jan-26, 04:39 AM
They have a lot of problems. I wonder if they are candidates for making geodesic domes out of bamboo. They could grow and continuously harvest
a durable and light weight structural material, perhaps using galvanized conectors. They need a genuine water supply they can rely on.
These are just openers. But if a bamboo structure somehow falls, it doesn't crush you. Domes are good, and they take a lot of wind. Hmmm....
Best regards,
Dan

sarongsong
2010-Jan-26, 05:36 AM
http://www.theonion.com/content/news/massive_earthquake_reveals_entireOh, let me guess what's there...video?...still pictures?...an unsummarizable article?... :rolleyes:


...The Onion is an American news satire organization...
wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Onion)

novaderrik
2010-Jan-26, 09:42 AM
Oh, let me guess what's there...video?...still pictures?...an unsummarizable article?... :rolleyes:

if you don't already know what to expect from an Onion link, then you shouldn't click on it.

novaderrik
2010-Jan-26, 09:43 AM
Oh, let me guess what's there...video?...still pictures?...an unsummarizable article?... :rolleyes:

if you don't already know what to expect from an Onion link, then you shouldn't click on it.

but, a short summary would be to say that the Onion nails it once again.

banquo's_bumble_puppy
2010-Jan-26, 11:45 AM
They have a lot of problems. I wonder if they are candidates for making geodesic domes out of bamboo. They could grow and continuously harvest
a durable and light weight structural material, perhaps using galvanized conectors. They need a genuine water supply they can rely on.
These are just openers. But if a bamboo structure somehow falls, it doesn't crush you. Domes are good, and they take a lot of wind. Hmmm....
Best regards,
Dan


that's good thinking....

danscope
2010-Jan-26, 06:12 PM
Hi, Thanks for the reply. To me, it makes sense. These are simple structures requiring simple skills, and they NEED the jobs.
Few structures can take the wind loading of a geodesic dome. They have one on Mt. washington in NH. It stands up to anything.
Rather than an expensive foundation, they can core out the hole and pour a
sonotube (8 inch ) with a galvy anchor set into it. Describe a circle and divide for location points. Not rocket science. Better than a card board lean to. Plastic pipe for a water system. Yes, basic, but affordable, and do-able.
They could employ reflective mylar for the covering. Hinged triangular windows for ventilation.
This system gives you room and more atmospheric ventilation for less.
Internal partitions are independent. These structures can be built quickly.

I wonder what Bucky would say.


Best regards,
Dan

Doodler
2010-Jan-27, 04:25 AM
Depose the current government, institute a reasonably benevolent occupation and re-education program for the current population in the hopes that maybe someday, you'll end up with a nation of people capable of thinking beyond the next handful of food from foreign charity.

Throw all the money and technology at the island you care to, if the locals can't maintain it, you may as well have dumped it in the Caribbean as artificial reefs for all the good it will do beyond the first major maintenance cycle.

They had butt simple diesel generator based power plants that were STRUGGLING to stay at half capacity, and now you think you can drop off pallets of solar panels and wind turbines that require a fair amount of high tech support to operate at somewhere within hailing distance of optimal efficiency and just turnkey the whole outfit after the eggheads are done putting it up and hitting the beach on the taxpayer's dime? Puh-lease... :rolleyes:

As for the geodesic nonsense, they're going to get one look at that bill of goods, take another look at the homes the people who are trying to sell it to them are living in, and wonder if you've lost your mind. You are not going to make a heck of a lot of progress in your sales pitch for tropical igloos when the people you're pitching to know you wouldn't subject yourself to living in one without a gun to your head.

Haitians are impoverished, battered, and desperate...they are NOT stupid.

danscope
2010-Jan-27, 04:51 PM
Doodler, There are many problems to deal with here. There were many problems BEFORE they got hit. Right now, you have a clean slate to deal with, apart
from dire emergency support. I don't think it is a matter of envy or jealousy
on the part of several million people who don't have a pot or a window.
Some consideration towards strong , light weight structure that "THEY" can build, and from their own renewable resources, appart from the connectors I stated, is financially doable, and employs local talent. Think local.
This is a key element in the very real task of bringing these people together.
There is a new hope in this scheme.
And frankly, renewable power for a country which has few exports makes a lot of sense. They don't need a "lot" of power. face it, they don't need electric heat. Communications and power tools and pumps are pretty good
needs for the immediate future, as well as a little light.
Emergency Un administration may be an option for a time. Untill things get a little better, there will be some desperate and anxious people.
Clearly, the local political track record reflects no confidence.
The only hope they have is for all parties concerned to think positive.
I should hope we think more in terms of hope and less about a past that has been shaken to the bone. Perhaps they can do better.
Leadership comes from many places. Leadership describes many disciplines.
It requires more than money. It wants a good heart and positive thinking.
Best regards,
Dan

Sam5
2010-Jan-27, 05:14 PM
Hi, Thanks for the reply. To me, it makes sense. These are simple structures requiring simple skills, and they NEED the jobs.
Few structures can take the wind loading of a geodesic dome. They have one on Mt. washington in NH. It stands up to anything.





Here's a group building dome houses in Haiti:

http://static.monolithic.com/gallery/homes/haiti/index.html

http://static.monolithic.com/gallery/homes/haiti/pic02.html

But what about multi-level apartment houses?

Doodler
2010-Jan-27, 10:48 PM
Doodler, There are many problems to deal with here. There were many problems BEFORE they got hit. Right now, you have a clean slate to deal with, apart
from dire emergency support. I don't think it is a matter of envy or jealousy
on the part of several million people who don't have a pot or a window.
Some consideration towards strong , light weight structure that "THEY" can build, and from their own renewable resources, appart from the connectors I stated, is financially doable, and employs local talent. Think local.
This is a key element in the very real task of bringing these people together.
There is a new hope in this scheme.
And frankly, renewable power for a country which has few exports makes a lot of sense. They don't need a "lot" of power. face it, they don't need electric heat. Communications and power tools and pumps are pretty good
needs for the immediate future, as well as a little light.
Emergency Un administration may be an option for a time. Untill things get a little better, there will be some desperate and anxious people.
Clearly, the local political track record reflects no confidence.
The only hope they have is for all parties concerned to think positive.
I should hope we think more in terms of hope and less about a past that has been shaken to the bone. Perhaps they can do better.
Leadership comes from many places. Leadership describes many disciplines.
It requires more than money. It wants a good heart and positive thinking.
Best regards,
Dan

I hear what you're saying, and it would make sense in an ideal world, but you're running headlong into some serious stumbling blocks.

The UN has a bad habit of wanting to deal with existing governments, even in the face of ridiculous dysfunctionality. In order to do the kind of national level re-engineering you and the others are talking about, you're going to have to deal with the very government that's driven this country into the ground time after time. This is far from the first time Haiti's been to the charity till in the face of disaster, and every time, despite gobs of cash being thrown their way, they've never managed to accomplish much with it. The reason being, the very incompetent leaders who walked the country into each crisis unprepared has been rebuilt and bolstered by the recovery effort. If you really want to improve the situation, you've got to go several steps beyond putting buildings and infrastructure into better repair. The culture that keeps letting this country decay almost immediately after the last foreign aid worker leaves has to be improved. Slapping new gear with the label "sustainable" first has to come with some guarantee that the people who will actually be running the equipment will actually "sustain" it by taking proper care of it. Those aforementioned diesel power plants would operate just fine and with enough capacity to serve the country's needs, IF they had the resources to actually maintain and repair them.

What is the fundamental difference between a badly damaged diesel generator being nursed along because proper replacements aren't affordable, and this new "sustainable" equipment everyone seems to think is the cat's meow once it starts going on the fritz? Windmills and solar panels require maintenance, too. They don't just sit outside and look pretty all on their lonesome. Parts wear out, gears break, things go wonky. What good will it do them with this new stuff when the time comes that it's falling apart because of deferred maintenance that the country simply cannot afford anymore than it could with the current equipment?

The problem isn't the things they have, the problem is that they can't afford to keep it up.

danscope
2010-Jan-28, 03:47 AM
Well clearly they don't have financial surpluses to buy oil. No question.
A better solution is to take advantage of what they get without oil.
If a windmill will work on Cape Cod, it will work in haiti. no question.
And as to their government, as it stands, they have no government.
There will be help and direction required. Plain and simple.
Time will tell. And better people will lead, and teach, and those who follow will learn and teach others. That is progress.
I think they have a good chance at coming out of this in better shape with hope for the future. It is the right thing to do.

Best regards, All.

Dan

danscope
2010-Jan-28, 03:53 AM
Here's a group building dome houses in Haiti:

http://static.monolithic.com/gallery/homes/haiti/index.html

http://static.monolithic.com/gallery/homes/haiti/pic02.html

But what about multi-level apartment houses?

***************
Hi Sam,
Thanks for the links. Interesting that someone is doing.
As far as multi-level apartments in a severe earthquake zone, I don't see
this as a viable solution for a number of reasons. Such structures become death traps. Perhaps a better solution is to spread out. It's healthier in more ways than one.
Best regards,
Dan

sarongsong
2010-Jan-28, 04:46 AM
...And as to their government, as it stands, they have no government...Not so fast, there...
January 27, 2009
...worry that Haitian officials "will do what they always have done, which is the government takes care of the government and the people are secondary,"...Coroleuski's frustration and distrust of the government is echoed in Port-au-Prince's streets.

"If they turn it [food distribution] over to the Haitian government, they would take it all for themselves," said Muller Bellegarde, 30, as he waited for food in the unrelenting tropical sun.

Haitians remember that when the government took charge of delivering international aid to the city of Gonaives after deadly hurricane floods in 2008, much of it ended up sold on the black market.

news.yahoo.com/AP (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100127/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/cb_haiti_earthquake_459)

danscope
2010-Jan-28, 06:32 PM
I should hope that the initial aid pouring in will be monitored by agencies other than haitian gov't. It would seem to be a bigger job than they could handle.
Much will be revealed in the next month.

Dan

DukePaul
2010-Jan-28, 06:59 PM
Lets try this: Move the United Nations headquarters to Haiti. This should provide some incentive for change and if not the next earthquake will take care of another bothersome problem.

Doodler
2010-Jan-28, 11:10 PM
Well clearly they don't have financial surpluses to buy oil. No question.

Missed my point. Its not about the supply of fuel, its the maintenance of the machine. Afterall, they were running those generators before the quake, so its obvious that someone could afford fuel for them. Its upkeep and repair that's the issue. Why weren't those machines restored to full capacity after the hurricane? You can put all the gas you want into a car, if the transmission's screwed up and you haven't changed the oil in 50,000 miles, its not going to run like it did on the showroom floor.

Windmills require regular maintenance, too. The transmission, the anchorage for the tower, the blades and shaft. These things, too, will decay in performance, if they're not properly maintained.

Even after you get that running properly, then you have the distribution grid...and from what I've read, the less said the better about how that was installed from the get go...

danscope
2010-Jan-29, 02:59 AM
You have to understand the balance of payments problem for a country with no exports for the time being.
My opinion is that they are well suited to a renewable power system.
We will see.

suntrack2
2010-Jan-30, 04:57 PM
living in tent would be better always in the seismic "sensitive area", 2. food supply and other equipments are really important in this aspect which must be provide better well in time, but in most of the cases the communication system fails and the victims or prospective victims could not contact with others, so there is vast need to research to work on the "active communication system during the earthquake" so that the contact can be easier. rehabilitation is also a great problem during such quakes, so the concentration on it much necessary. thirdly the medication and other necessary treatments and provisions are quite important, so the inputs must be more active to provide it better well in time. in most of the cases it is learnt that difficulty in clearing the debris of the buildings and the constructions so more instruments have to keep ready, but in mass distractions the question falls that how to survive people... we are really very small in front of the natural calamities.

blueshift
2010-Jan-31, 05:48 AM
I would think that someone who survived Katrina might give us a hint as to what may or may not be workable here to some extent. We would then have to take into account what Haitian rebound capability is in comparison to Americans in New Orleans based on knowing the conditions prior to each of the disasters in each area. We might even make a better comparison to the tsunami that slammed Sri Lanka a few years back to see how they have rebounded and where they stumbled in their efforts to rebuild.

HenrikOlsen
2010-Jan-31, 12:08 PM
living in tent would be better always in the seismic "sensitive area".
Except that this is also a hurricane prone area, so tents will probably not be a reasonable mid term solution.

djinn
2010-Jan-31, 02:50 PM
It's not quite true that Haiti has no oil, or gas. It would be strange if it was virtually the only country in the area without any.

Here's a report (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2010898359_haitioil27.html) about possible reserves in the area (from a US paper - it's hard to google anything except anti-US sites saying there is lots of oil in Haiti, and that is why the US has "invaded" it. :) )

The Greater Antilles, which includes Cuba, Haiti, the Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico and their offshore waters, probably hold at least 142 million barrels of oil and 159 billion cubic feet of gas, according to a 2000 report by the U.S. Geological Survey. Undiscovered amounts may be as high as 941 million barrels of oil and 1.2 trillion cubic feet of gas, according to the report

If any of this gas can be developed reasonably soon it can be used as an alternative to the current use of firewood for fuel.

Aside from that, and all the obvious short term needs, we know there will be hurricanes in Haiti again this year. The fact that the housing of millions of Haitians has been destroyed or damaged by the quake means that the death tolls will be even higher than usual. The same hurricanes regularily kill hundreds in Haiti (and elsewhere), but only a handful, or none, in Cuba. Haiti needs to learn something from Cuba about disaster planning for hurricanes (http://www.preventionweb.net/english/multimedia/v.php?id=968&hid=58) and flooding.

a system that relies on clear communication between the Met Office, Civil Defence and the media. Despite being one of the poorest countries in the Caribbean, the people of Cuba are among the best prepared against hurricanes. Every year the whole country takes part in a two-day training session in risk reduction for hurricanes, complete with full simulation exercises
You also need to provide public hurricane and quake proof shelters, certainly for the urban population. It's cheaper than building everyone hurricane proof housing, and we know that's never going to happen, let alone providing earthquake proof housing. Many people will still be living in tents by the time the next hurricane season starts (if they haven't already died from malaria, or some other disease, by then (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jan/31/haiti-disease-epidemics-earthquake)).

One thing that definitely needs to be done immediately is to find some way to finance a massive reforestation scheme. This would also provide a medium term income for many Haitians (and get some people out of the ruined capital). Without reforestation, almost everything else done will be a total waste of money and effort in the long term. No country can survive the 98% deforestation Haiti had. It was still struggling with the aftermath of widespread (erosion magnified) flooding from previous hurricanes when the quake hit.

And then, of course, there's the 50% literacy rate. No country can possibly climb out of poverty (or corruption) with that rate.
Teachers, and books, would be a lot more useful than some of the people, and things, Haiti is getting.

danscope
2010-Jan-31, 10:08 PM
"It's cheaper than building everyone hurricane proof housing, and we know that's never going to happen, let alone providing earthquake proof housing. "
That is not particularly correct. It remains to be seen if light weight domes from renewable resources can be an excellent solution to this dual problem of earthquake and hurricane. We will see.
Dan

Argos
2010-Feb-02, 06:51 PM
Haiti should move its capital (http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1953379_1953494_1958231,00.html).


If this were a typical earthquake, the risk of future incidents would decline over the next few months, (...) The stress would be relieved, and we could all go back to sleep for another 250 years," which is about how long ago Haiti's Enriquillo Fault last convulsed. "But that's not the case here our findings suggest another shoe has to drop.

Sam5
2010-Feb-02, 08:33 PM
Haiti should move its capital (http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1953379_1953494_1958231,00.html).

Sounds like a good idea.

I was down in Managua, Nicaragua, in 1979, and I saw that the downtown area had been abandoned, after the big 1972 earthquake. After that, I think no more tall buildings were built downtown. The city spread out away from its former center.

danscope
2010-Feb-02, 10:47 PM
Yes. Part of the answer is good, inexpensive light transportaion ...
(read... monorails ) allow a metropolitan center to difuse ....spread out, instead of concentrating the population in dangerous multi storied
death traps. It requires a revolution in city thinking.

Atraveller
2010-Nov-05, 12:15 AM
Looks like Haiti is going to get whacked - again.

This time it is Tropical Storm Thomas:

http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/storm_graphics/AT21/refresh/AL2110W5_NL_sm2+gif/204716W5_NL_sm.gif

Those poor people in tents better hang on...

Swift
2010-Nov-05, 01:39 PM
I believe it is now hurricane Tomas. And yes, good luck Haiti.

megrfl
2010-Nov-05, 01:50 PM
Yes, even with moderately high winds, those tents will not hold up for long. Forecasters seem more concerned with flooding and land slides though. It is a horrid situation.

rommel543
2010-Nov-05, 02:12 PM
Ouch, looking at winds 74-110 mph by the time it hits.