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Thread: I am a little sad

  1. #301
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    Whatever... it's a shame that there's no a single human being that has ventured beyond LEO since 1973. As Taylor Dinerman says: A half a century between human visits to our nearest celestial neighbor needs to be explained.

  2. #302
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    But perhaps we should consider: men smart enough to go to the moon....
    quite a few times, will develope other considerations in the venue of manned space . If it then.... takes the form of useful science in LEO, than that enterprise shall be an extension of fruitful scientific investigation.
    There is much to accomplish in LEO for now. Given time... and money,
    and the will to do so, we may let return to the moon. It's not time now.

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zvezdichko View Post
    Whatever... it's a shame that there's no a single human being that has ventured beyond LEO since 1973. As Taylor Dinerman says: A half a century between human visits to our nearest celestial neighbor needs to be explained.
    It has been explained many times, though perhaps not in this thread: It was originally done for political reasons that no longer exist, it was and remains very expensive, there has been no radical advance in key technologies (unlike, for instance, microelectronics), and this latest attempt has been just a retread of the old methodology.

    It's in that last, especially, where there might be room for change. Some people here are angry because of the cancellation of this latest program. I'm angry because it's taken so long to get to this point. I wanted to see this push for commercial crewed flights decades ago.

    "The problem with quotes on the Internet is that it is hard to verify their authenticity." Abraham Lincoln

    I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?

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  4. #304
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    The political reason was that it looked at the time that the USSR was going to dominate the New Frontier. The NASA manned space flight budget is tiny! Its less than $10 billion a year, if you include money used for the Constellation program. Actual money spent for manned space flight last year was about $5 billion. That will only get you about two weeks of occupation in Iraq-- which has already been a wonderful investment for the US with over $700 billion spent so far.

    Marcel F. Williams

  5. #305
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    Yes, Marcel got it right. It's just a lie that there's no money for manned spaceflight compared to that wasteful spending for wars, etc...

    Sliding into slippery slope again...

  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zvezdichko View Post
    ... Sliding into slippery slope again...
    I'm sure most people on BAUT have similar feelings about Space exploration budget vs. warfare budget, but as you've noted, that line of discussion takes us into an against-the-rules situation. No warnings, everyone meant well... but please stop this line of discussion.
    Forming opinions as we speak

  7. #307
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    OK, thanks for the quick reply.

  8. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by Van Rijn View Post
    It has been explained many times, though perhaps not in this thread: It was originally done for political reasons that no longer exist, it was and remains very expensive, there has been no radical advance in key technologies (unlike, for instance, microelectronics), and this latest attempt has been just a retread of the old methodology.

    It's in that last, especially, where there might be room for change. Some people here are angry because of the cancellation of this latest program. I'm angry because it's taken so long to get to this point. I wanted to see this push for commercial crewed flights decades ago.

    I must admit that prior to joining BAUT I was pretty ambivalent about commercial LEO, and a firm believer that we should go back to the Moon, and land on Mars, ASAP.
    After reading the threads here I'm convinced that as far as LEO goes the best thing governments can do is create a framework for commercial development, and perhaps invest in new technologies.
    As far as the Moon or Mars goes I've concluded that with our current technology we can't do more than brief visits to the moon, and Mars missions with a 2-3 year flight plan are just absurd gambles.
    Better to explore avenues for new technology, and accept the uncertainty that goes with such an approach, than just retread the footsteps of Apollo and have another generation in 30-40 years complaining about why we haven't been back to the Moon/Mars since Constellation?

  9. #309
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    Not wanting to break any of the rules and still wanting to have the conversation;
    The Apollo program was shut down, costs... and the shuttle has reached the end of its program and there is no replacement. Costs. Now we have canned the next generation of manned space flight vehicles... costs. It would appear that these things called 'costs' are the problem. Not politicians or business. How do you or we fix this... To make the cost go away...
    Nat ionize it. Give it to the United Nations... Its a sort of communist attitude which is an 'issue' for some... but it might be the only way forward, or is that 'up.'

  10. #310
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
    I must admit that prior to joining BAUT I was pretty ambivalent about commercial LEO, and a firm believer that we should go back to the Moon, and land on Mars, ASAP.
    After reading the threads here I'm convinced that as far as LEO goes the best thing governments can do is create a framework for commercial development, and perhaps invest in new technologies.
    As far as the Moon or Mars goes I've concluded that with our current technology we can't do more than brief visits to the moon, and Mars missions with a 2-3 year flight plan are just absurd gambles.
    Better to explore avenues for new technology, and accept the uncertainty that goes with such an approach, than just retread the footsteps of Apollo and have another generation in 30-40 years complaining about why we haven't been back to the Moon/Mars since Constellation?
    I think it'd be surprising to see exactly how long we could stay on the moon. It would take investment though. Governments would all have to chip in to create the huge amount of necessary infrastructure. Large-scale greenhouses, solar arrays, rotating modules for artificial gravity, and so on. But after that's all finished, humans on the moon could be mostly self-sufficient, especially if they choose to locate at the poles where they could extract water.

    Mars, on the other hand, would take a lot of chipping in from world governments. The best way to do it would be as a permanent colony, which would require a huge amount of resources transported. There could be a preliminary group made up of scientists to do research and set things up, but after that it'll require more colonists to be sent (in the hundreds,) as well as more equipment for infrastructure. Then there's the terraforming, which should be the long-term goal, requiring even more equipment!

    This is the reason I think the only real future, especially for space, is a more politically controlled one. It'd take a private corporation centuries at best to recover costs from a Mars colony, and a few decades at the least from a Lunar one. A world effort, on the other hand, would largely negate the costs and see it as another step for humankind; a new world to create, not something to make money off of. Unfortunately, we have many, many problems of our own here on Earth, and there's just too little willpower to catapult ourselves into action to take care of that and make us a truly spacefaring species.

    As far as capitalism in LEO goes, what exactly is there to do? Maybe a bit of low-grav manufacturing, and some space hotels (the latter especially being dependent on a space elevator,) but that's about it. I just don't see the opportunities.

    OP, I still believe that in my lifetime (I'm a bit young though,) we'll have a moon colony and at least have set foot on Mars. We could probably get a fully functioning and growing colony on Mars by 2040, and on the moon by 2020, but I don't think the world's just ready for that.

  11. #311
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    Are you going to ferry water every couple of months?
    I don't think so,Tim.

  12. #312
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    Water, food, clean air, oxygen, radiation shielding, spare parts. And scrubbing the CO2
    None of these things may be taken for granted, either here or in space or some desolate gravel pit. You will have to solve these questions long before you design a ship to carry the equipment which could potentialy give you these graces. That is truly the question. And you will have to find room for your scientific gear as well as room to "Live" .
    That's a tall order.

    Just like golf, raising children and working toward a degree, you will require patience in quantities that rival rocket fuel .
    It has always been the ingredient most required.

    Best regards,
    Dan

  13. #313
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    Just like golf, raising children and working toward a degree, you will require patience in quantities that rival rocket fuel .
    It has always been the ingredient most required.


    That, and money.

  14. #314
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    Oh... YES Sireee Bob ! Lots and lots of dough.And when you think you have enough, tripple it, and you will have a down payment on how much it really costs.

    Dan

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