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Thread: Whats up with the Cold Fusion Energy Catalyzer or E-Cat?

  1. #1
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    Question Whats up with the Cold Fusion Energy Catalyzer or E-Cat?

    I just heard about the Energy Catalyzer device from a forbes article. Says it does Cold Fusion

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/markgibb...ave-new-world/

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Catalyzer

    What are your thoughts? Anyone know if this is real? or is it like the last time someone said they figured out cold fusion?

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    Rossi's work has been discussed (rather inconclusively if I recall) here before: http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php/111891

    I am not holding my breath...

    The first article says "The reaction uses a secret catalyst ..." Not if they have filed a patent application it doesn't. Or, if they want to keep that secret, then they won't get a patent. Can't have it both ways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Rossi's work has been discussed (rather inconclusively if I recall) here before: http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php/111891

    I am not holding my breath...
    Also here:

    http://www.bautforum.com/showthread....d-Fusion-redux

    I remember googling around on this guy. Of course, the magic energy machine makes no sense (supposedly fusing nickel and hydrogen and producing copper with energy output, instead of taking energy as would be expected, and it just gets warm, no neutrons, no gamma, no charged particles). But he also has a bit of a history. Apparently he was involved in an oil from waste scheme (Petrol Dragon) that became an environmental mess, and folded. There were apparently big promises that didn't pan out. Also, he was apparently involved in another company called "Leonardo Technologies" that promised super efficient thermoelectric generators for the DoD. Again: Big claims that didn't pan out. Energy production that was only a tiny fraction of what had been promised. He also supposedly went to jail at one time for tax fraud. Not someone I would trust very far.

    The first article says "The reaction uses a secret catalyst ..." Not if they have filed a patent application it doesn't. Or, if they want to keep that secret, then they won't get a patent. Can't have it both ways.
    Also, secrecy is a very common theme in magic energy machine scams. After all, they don't want people looking too closely and finding the hidden batteries/hidden air line, springs, etc, or finding that the energy output isn't exceptional at all. No, you can't let people see the vital "secret catalyst" (wink, wink, nudge, nudge).
    Last edited by Van Rijn; 2011-Oct-19 at 08:08 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AutoBoof View Post
    What are your thoughts? Anyone know if this is real? or is it like the last time someone said they figured out cold fusion?
    Fake. I'd be willing to entertain the possibility of self-deception on his part, rather than deliberate, conscious deception, but from his history I doubt it.

    By the way, magic energy machine claims go back centuries. "Cold fusion" is just a modern term that sometimes gets taken a little more seriously than classic perpetual motion machine claims, but that's all.

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    Oh, I almost forgot: Apparently, in the case of the not-so-efficient thermoelectric generators, there was a convenient fire that burned out the factory where they were being made and that ended the program.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Van Rijn View Post
    Of course, the magic energy machine makes no sense (supposedly fusing nickel and hydrogen and producing copper with energy output, instead of taking energy as would be expected, and it just gets warm, no neutrons, no gamma, no charged particles).
    Produces copper with natural isotope ratios, too...no unstable isotopes. And iron, for some unexplained reason. Makes me wonder why he picked such unrealistic claims...be easier to get away with something like fusing carbon into nitrogen.

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    I have the sustainable energy source that involves turning tacos and beer into methane. My exact method is a secret but it is easily reproducible by nearly anyone.
    Solfe

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    JREF has a good thread inthe Science Forumthat is following the ongoing 'story'
    We are to expect an important announcement at the end of the month but recent releases seem to be edging towards a delay in the announcement.
    JREF regulars are running a book on the excuse that comes out.

    http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=198040

    Warning, very looooong thread.
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    The "How will Rossi weasel out this time" competition on the last page is entertaining at least, which is about as much as you can say for cold fusion...sorry LENR so far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Van Rijn View Post
    .....By the way, magic energy machine claims go back centuries. "Cold fusion" is just a modern term that sometimes gets taken a little more seriously than classic perpetual motion machine claims, but that's all.
    What is the claim usually? Someone has found a kind of catalyst which helps to penetrate the Coulomb barrier between the nuclei?

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    Quote Originally Posted by AndreH View Post
    What is the claim usually? Someone has found a kind of catalyst which helps to penetrate the Coulomb barrier between the nuclei?
    In a lot of the claims it's supposed to be Paladium which provides the proper environment for deuterium to undergo fusion at low temperatures.

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    Rossi's E-CAT cold fusion test "a success"... apparently

    So some may have heard of this guy, who is certain that he has unlocked the powers of cold fusuion. Well he did a test on the 28th, and an article has come up that claims it was a success:

    http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/.../rossi-success

    There is still criticism abouut the whole thing, and apparently the customer is still unkown. This article makes aa weird claim that its DARPA, and thay they have had aan interest in Rossi's work for some time. Reminds me of people who think Nikola Tesla invented free energy and thats its being covered up.

    Now I'm not familar with how things get published. But should there not be other Scientists actively checking the results and the way it was conducted? Also, someone said to me that customers should be made public, is this true?

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    aliensdidit,

    I've merged your post into the thread that already exists on this topic.
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    The article also says:
    ...observers apart from the customer were only allowed to view the test for a few minutes at a time and during the entire test the E-Cat remained connected to a power supply by a cable. The external power was supposedly turned off; as a demonstration it would have been more impressive for the reactor in its shipping container to be visibly disconnected while operating.
    Yes it should be verified. But sounds like the details will remain secret. Maybe because there aren't any?

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    Quote Originally Posted by AndreH View Post
    What is the claim usually? Someone has found a kind of catalyst which helps to penetrate the Coulomb barrier between the nuclei?
    There are many claims. Many older gimmicks (and some modern ones) had magnets and complicated mechanical affairs with various claimed explanations for the energy source. From at least the '70s there have been claims for things that tie into a car engine that are supposed to give you more energy than is theoretically possible. Unspecified nuclear and vacuum energy claims are fairly common claims these days. Any of the nuclear or vacuum energy stuff is naturally claimed to be absolutely clean, no energetic particles, always avoiding anything (naturally) that would provide actual evidence for their claims.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aliensdidit View Post
    So some may have heard of this guy, who is certain that he has unlocked the powers of cold fusuion. Well he did a test on the 28th, and an article has come up that claims it was a success:
    The article qualifies "success" as follows:

    For a start, the US customer remains anonymous. In other words, a group of unknown, unverifiable people carried out tests which cannot be checked.

    Secondly, observers apart from the customer were only allowed to view the test for a few minutes at a time and during the entire test the E-Cat remained connected to a power supply by a cable.


    Which means "success" depends entirely on whether you trust that everyone is telling the truth and doing proper tests. There's no way to tell if the customer is real, and if they're real, if they did proper tests.

    Now I'm not familar with how things get published. But should there not be other Scientists actively checking the results and the way it was conducted?
    That's up to Rossi. This isn't based on anything that's been published in peer-reviewed journals, and he obviously isn't making it generally available for review. Nor is there any reason why other scientists should expend their own time and resources on it at this point. Extraordinary energy machine claims go back centuries, some where the inventor fooled themselves on the results, some where there are deliberately faked results. Still another claim of still another extraordinary energy machine naturally invokes extreme skepticism.

    Also, someone said to me that customers should be made public, is this true?
    That's secondary, but claiming an unnamed customer does nothing to promote credibility.

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    I have a friend who has a couple of perpetual motion machines that seem to deliver what they promise. The only issue is the "inventors" who gave him the devices acknowledge that perpetual motion is impossible and presumably each device has a power source that is not entirely obvious. The inventors are teachers or hobbyists who enjoy a good joke.

    The one I like the most is "a battery powered battery charger" that seems to charge two batteries with the energy from one identical battery. The contraption has several boxes of electronics and two bicycle tires rims spun by magnets. The wheels don't seem to have anything to do with the charging of the batteries, they just spin for fun. Darned if I can figure out how it works.

    It seems pretty easy to fool people, even without resorting to placing observational limits on the devices.
    Solfe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Solfe View Post
    It seems pretty easy to fool people, even without resorting to placing observational limits on the devices.
    Rule #1: People can be gullible, particularly in subjects they don't know a lot about.

    Rule #2: Sometimes you can make money off of this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhaedas View Post
    Rule #1: People can be gullible, particularly in subjects they don't know a lot about.

    Rule #2: Sometimes you can make money off of this.
    Thank you P.T. Barnum (This Way to the Egress)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solfe View Post
    I have a friend who has a couple of perpetual motion machines that seem to deliver what they promise.
    Something of a side question, but a genuine one...a perpetual motion machine violates the laws of physics. Does the notion of cold fusion do so as well? If so, which law(s) would it violate?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daffy View Post
    Something of a side question, but a genuine one...a perpetual motion machine violates the laws of physics. Does the notion of cold fusion do so as well? If so, which law(s) would it violate?
    It's just fusion that gets past the energy barrier by some means other than smashing nuclei into each other with sheer kinetic energy. It doesn't violate any laws of physics, but there's no known mechanism for an effect that would allow this to happen at any useful rate, no repeatable demonstration of an unexplained effect, and a whole lot of conmen claiming to have done it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Van Rijn View Post
    There are many claims. .......
    I see, I was not aware there were so many different "ways" to "do" it. First time ever I heard of cold fusion was in a 60'ties SF boocklet (one of the "Perry Rhodan" series). At that time I was wondering if it was just a SF New Physics thing or if there was a real, at least theoretical way.
    So I was basicly interested what those people usually claim what way they believe have to figured out.
    I guess they normally don't tell because then the information would be immediately surpressed by "THEM" or stolen by some big international trust
    Thanks for the short summary

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    Quote Originally Posted by Solfe View Post
    I have a friend who has a couple of perpetual motion machines that seem to deliver what they promise. The only issue is the "inventors" who gave him the devices acknowledge that perpetual motion is impossible and presumably each device has a power source that is not entirely obvious. The inventors are teachers or hobbyists who enjoy a good joke.
    Are these commercially available somewhere?

    Quote Originally Posted by Solfe View Post
    It seems pretty easy to fool people, even without resorting to placing observational limits on the devices.
    Hmmm.....I would say just because you can't figure it out does not automatically mean you're a fool, does it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cjameshuff View Post
    It's just fusion that gets past the energy barrier by some means other than smashing nuclei into each other with sheer kinetic energy. It doesn't violate any laws of physics, but there's no known mechanism for an effect that would allow this to happen at any useful rate, no repeatable demonstration of an unexplained effect, and a whole lot of conmen claiming to have done it.
    So, comparing it to a perpetual motion machine is perhaps a bit premature? Because it seems like legitimate researchers are exploring the possibilities of developing CF, not just crackpots and con artists.

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    Don't forget that Rossi already has convictions for fraud in this area.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daffy View Post
    So, comparing it to a perpetual motion machine is perhaps a bit premature? Because it seems like legitimate researchers are exploring the possibilities of developing CF, not just crackpots and con artists.
    It's just inaccurate, a cold fusion machine would consume a fuel to release energy, not create it out of nowhere. The association with perpetual motion is because a lot of the cold fusion cranks and conmen use the same techniques to sell their claims that the perpetual motion cranks and conmen do...semiscientific babble, handwaving, secret components, claims of academic or government suppression, etc.

    I'm unaware of any serious cold fusion research. Low energy nuclear reactions are a real area of research, but I haven't seen anything to indicate that something like cold fusion is possible...it involves things like inverse beta decay being influenced by chemical bonds, metastable nuclear states that can be influenced by x-rays, etc, and the term LENR has been so heavily abused by cranks and frauds that I don't know if any legitimate researcher will use it.

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    Well, I certainly agree the field is full of cranks. Still, it is apparently being taken seriously---as far as being worth looking into---in some quarters by legitimate researchers. Seems premature to link it overall with perpetual motion machines.

    However, cold fusion experiments are still being carried out at the US Navy's Space and Naval Warfare Systems Center[4] in San Diego, California and 30 other laboratories.
    http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Cold_fusion

    I do hasten to add, though, that I have never heard of "rational wiki" and cannot say for certain it is a reliable source.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cjameshuff View Post
    It's just inaccurate, a cold fusion machine would consume a fuel to release energy, not create it out of nowhere. The association with perpetual motion is because a lot of the cold fusion cranks and conmen use the same techniques to sell their claims that the perpetual motion cranks and conmen do...semiscientific babble, handwaving, secret components, claims of academic or government suppression, etc.
    Rather than "perpetual motion machine" I usually use the term "magic energy machine" or "extraordinary energy machine" for gimmicks with pseudoscientific claims about energy sources.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AndreH View Post
    Are these commercially available somewhere?

    Hmmm.....I would say just because you can't figure it out does not automatically mean you're a fool, does it?
    No, unfortunately they are not for sale and I really want one. They are science+artworks and they are really cool. If I can get some pictures of a few of them, I will post 'em.

    The devices are designed to A) do something that appears to be impossible and B) to defy any debunking. The creators have at various times stated the devices do strange things, but are NOT perpetual motion machines. Some features are wires that appear to run from a terminal back to the exact same terminal, wiring boxes that are solid wood no wires pass through them, light bulbs that light when the batteries are removed and turn off when the batteries are installed. They are more like puzzles for electrical engineers.

    I suspect their function is more a case of savvy design and if you could see it being built, it would be quite obvious as to what is doing what.
    Solfe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daffy View Post
    I do hasten to add, though, that I have never heard of "rational wiki" and cannot say for certain it is a reliable source.
    Rational Wiki was set up refugees from Andrew Schlaffley's "Conservapedia" as a counter to that site. It's got a pretty good amount of stuff covering various forms of woo and nonsense. Don't visit either site if you're going to be offended by discussions of politics and religion.
    Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.

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