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Thread: Loch Ness Monster used to debunk evolution in state-funded school

  1. #1
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    Loch Ness Monster used to debunk evolution in state-funded school

    From Yahoo:

    http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow...190816504.html

    Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse!

    "Are dinosaurs alive today? Scientists are becoming more convinced of their existence. Have you heard of the 'Loch Ness Monster' in Scotland? 'Nessie' for short has been recorded on sonar from a small submarine, described by eyewitnesses, and photographed by others. Nessie appears to be a plesiosaur."
    Is it any wonder we've fallen behind most of the world in science, math and critical thinking?
    problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back (Piet Hein)
    I cook with wine, and sometime I even add it to the food. (W.C. Fields)
    I don't ask stupid questions. I just make stupid statements!!!
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    All truths are simple to understand, once they are found. The challenge is finding them. (attrib. to Galileo)


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    On top of the stupidity of using the Loch Ness Monster in a classroom, I find it hard to understand how exactly this would "debunk" evolution. Just because dinosaurs have survived would have no bearing at all on whether the theory of evolution is valid or not. . .
    As above, so below

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    On top of the stupidity of using the Loch Ness Monster in a classroom, I find it hard to understand how exactly this would "debunk" evolution. Just because dinosaurs have survived would have no bearing at all on whether the theory of evolution is valid or not. . .
    Yep, just as the 1938 discovery that Coelacanths were not extinct demolished the theory of evolution...

    They probably have some convoluted way in which it debunks a strawman version of evolution.

    Perhaps universities from other states should be announcing that graduates of these Louisiana schools will not be eligible for enrollment in science programs at their institutions.
    This idea was suggested in a 1999 Scientific American editorial after the Kansas Board of Education decided to delete the teaching of evolution from the state's science curriculum.

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    Last time I checked, we all see a decendent of one form of dino every day. I believe we call them birds.

    To go to use the overly flimsy, mostly disproven evidence of Nessie being a plesiosaur as evidence of evolution or not is truly sad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Torsten View Post
    Perhaps universities from other states should be announcing that graduates of these Louisiana schools will not be eligible for enrollment in science programs at their institutions.
    This idea was suggested in a 1999 Scientific American editorial after the Kansas Board of Education decided to delete the teaching of evolution from the state's science curriculum.
    I suppose it would act as pressure, but it seems a little bit unfair to children who happened to be born in Kansas and could perhaps be "curable", if you like.
    As above, so below

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    Vouchers do not make a "state-funded school" any more than food stamps make a "state-funded grocery store."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torsten View Post
    Perhaps universities from other states should be announcing that graduates of these Louisiana schools will not be eligible for enrollment in science programs at their institutions.
    This idea was suggested in a 1999 Scientific American editorial after the Kansas Board of Education decided to delete the teaching of evolution from the state's science curriculum.
    This already happens. There was a lawsuit in (IIRC) California "recently" where (again IIRC) parents sued a university that specifically barred people from a certain christian school (where no evolution was taught), because those kids could not show they had studied the curriculum required for admittance into that university. If I don't forget I'll hunt down the details this evening.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torsten View Post
    They probably have some convoluted way in which it debunks a strawman version of evolution
    I do believe it's to do with showing that the Bible is absolutely correct in every word. Including but not limited to the creation story (or stories, if you like to be filthy pagan ).
    The dog, the dog, he's at it again!

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    Speaking of the Loch Ness Monster, there's something in google maps:

    57.214369,-4.570701

    Looks like a giant squid. In fairness, it does seem to have a tail and four limbs. Did somebody put that into the map as a hoax?
    As above, so below

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    hull+bow wave+stern wave+ propeller wash = Nessie?
    With sufficient thrust, water towers fly just fine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicolas View Post
    hull+bow wave+stern wave+ propeller wash = Nessie?
    That's what it looks like to me.
    Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slang View Post
    If I don't forget I'll hunt down the details this evening.
    Can't seem to find it, perhaps it didn't make it into court. It was somewhere in the past five years or so, unless my memory fails me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AstroRockHunter View Post
    From Yahoo:
    "Are dinosaurs alive today? Scientists are becoming
    Is it any wonder we've fallen behind most of the world in science, math and critical thinking?
    Apparently the problem is with english too if that's what they define as "scientist"

    From the article:
    "We try to stay away from all those things that might confuse our children."
    Sure; let them get older before we confuse them.

    At least thier enrollment is low.

    Quote Originally Posted by slang View Post
    This already happens. There was a lawsuit in (IIRC) California "recently" where (again IIRC) parents sued a university that specifically barred people from a certain christian school (where no evolution was taught), because those kids could not show they had studied the curriculum required for admittance into that university. If I don't forget I'll hunt down the details this evening.
    I'll be interested in hearing the results and the details. Often times this type of news is someone whining because a certain group couldn't meet requirements rather than the group being banned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NEOWatcher View Post

    I'll be interested in hearing the results and the details. Often times this type of news is someone whining because a certain group couldn't meet requirements rather than the group being banned.
    The University of California has a standard "a to g subject area requirements" that incoming students must meet from the classes they take from their high school. The list includes English, history, science, math, foreign language, and arts.

    The intent of the "a-g" Subject Requirements is to ensure that students can participate fully in the first-year program at the University in a wide variety of fields of study. The requirements are written deliberately for the benefit of all students expecting to enter the University, and not for preparation for specific majors. UC faculty consider the Subject Requirements to be effective preparation, on many levels, for undergraduate work at the University.
    ...
    On an annual basis, public and private California high schools use the "a-g" Online Update web site to submit to UC requested updates to their existing "a-g" course list. It is recommended that new schools develop an "a-g" course list by the time their first class of students are Juniors.
    http://www.ucop.edu/a-gGuide/ag/a-g/

    The basic Science courses have to meet the state requirements for rigor - Creationism is not science (duh)!

    A friend of mine is involved in UC's process of certification of classes. Usually, problems occur because "new" schools (or administrators) just do not know what the requirements are and may not offer the needed classes. But certain schools refused to offer real science and so their classes were not approved and their students not acceptable for admission to UC. Parents/schools sued (and lost).

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    Quote Originally Posted by NEOWatcher View Post
    I'll be interested in hearing the results and the details. Often times this type of news is someone whining because a certain group couldn't meet requirements rather than the group being banned.
    I'm reasonably certain the case I'm thinking of was covered on The Panda's Thumb, also reasonably certain it was after Kitzmiller vs Dover, which ended Dec. 2005, and I'm only slightly less certain that a University on the western side of the USA was involved. I couldn't find it on the thumb, and it doesn't seem to be in wiki's list of establishment clause cases.
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    Come on, is it really any worse than using the Loch Ness Monster to support the theory of evolution?

    (That was my attempt at a false dichotomy. How did I do?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by slang View Post
    Can't seem to find it, perhaps it didn't make it into court. It was somewhere in the past five years or so, unless my memory fails me.
    Here is a short summary of the action filed against UC: http://www.universityofcalifornia.ed.../acsi-stearns/

    The disallowed courses included literature classes that were not up to snuff.

    In August 2005, the Association of Christian Schools International (ACSI), the Calvary Chapel Christian School in Murrieta, CA, and six Calvary Chapel students filed a lawsuit against the University of California. Plaintiffs challenge the process through which UC reviews high school courses submitted for approval as meeting the University’s college preparatory course requirements – known as the a-g requirements...

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    Quote Originally Posted by BioSci View Post
    The basic Science courses have to meet the state requirements for rigor...
    Ah; the fault of the school's (not the uni) offering, not because of testing. Makes sense.
    I know some universities have alternate methods through testing, but I'm not sure of the details or if it's actually at the state level for standardized testing.

    Quote Originally Posted by BioSci View Post
    Parents/schools sued (and lost).
    At least the outcome was right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BioSci View Post
    Here is a short summary of the action filed against UC: http://www.universityofcalifornia.ed.../acsi-stearns/
    Ah yes, that's the one I remember. I think... It does give some hits on Panda's Thumb(google) that seem familiar. And it's in wikipedia's "Category:United States creationism and evolution case law", because it wasn't based on the establishment clause. Dang wiki and its lists of categories of lists of categories.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NEOWatcher View Post
    Sure; let them get older before we confuse them.
    I'll admit I'm not parenting my child, but am I the only person who wants their child exposed to the idea that not everyone thinks the same way I do?

    Quote Originally Posted by BioSci View Post
    The University of California has a standard "a to g subject area requirements" that incoming students must meet from the classes they take from their high school. The list includes English, history, science, math, foreign language, and arts.
    Which is why all of my classmates took two years of a foreign language in high school--even most of the ones who could already pass a proficiency test. My high school friends were all going to apply to the UC system.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gillianren View Post
    I'll admit I'm not parenting my child, but am I the only person who wants their child exposed to the idea that not everyone thinks the same way I do?
    I agree that everyone should be exposed to the idea that not everyone thinks the was I do. This is not what this is about though.

    This is about someone teaching children to think the way they do, rather than to teach them to think about the information that they receive.
    problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back (Piet Hein)
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    After watching this sort of thing go on for many decades, I have come to the conclusion that people want their beer, football and fairy tales. And the inalienable right to whine. It is a complete waste of time to appeal to a nature that is not there. Despite my best efforts I really don't care anymore. Let 'em teach whatever they want.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AstroRockHunter View Post
    I agree that everyone should be exposed to the idea that not everyone thinks the was I do. This is not what this is about though.

    This is about someone teaching children to think the way they do, rather than to teach them to think about the information that they receive.
    I'm just saying. I've studied banned books, and the argument which seems to come up most is "I don't want my children exposed to that." Well, suck it up--your children are going to be exposed to it. If you don't want them to agree with it, that's your job as a parent. And, yes, evolution is teaching children This Is What Happens. But science is about teaching a certain way of thinking, and the only way to truly remove that is just to not teach children science at all. What's more, quite a lot of kids probably don't learn about evolution until they are old enough to reason, old enough so that they would be living adult lives not all that long ago. I don't remember studying much science at all in elementary school; it's possible that evolution didn't come up in school until junior high. Maybe even biology class in high school, when I was fifteen or sixteen. Laura Ingalls Wilder was teaching when she was that age!
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    Apparently, in other countries, the teaching of maths and science, at primary and high school level, is regarded very seriously. For example, look at where countries such as Finland, South Korea, Canada, Japan, Australia, and New Zealand rank, in the PISA league tableWP.

    What - fundamentally - prevents the US from being in the top 10?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nereid View Post
    ...in the PISA league tableWP.
    "Shanghai, China" was 1st in all categories in 2009? I imagine if the U.S. only counted the cream of its math and science students, it could also "score" pretty highly. And how does one test "Reading" internationally?
    Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nereid View Post
    What - fundamentally - prevents the US from being in the top 10?
    You probably notice that a number of other sort of superadvanced countries, like the UK, France, and Germany, also don't do all that well. I'm guessing that a large part of it is motivation. I don't think that kids from those countries are particularly motivated to go through the trouble of learning math and science, because it seems to be more glamorous to have a job as a lawyer or musician or investment banker than to be an engineer.
    As above, so below

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    sadly, most people that argue against the theory of evolution have no idea what that theory actually is.. they always pull out the "if we evolved from apes, then why are there still apes?" line of thinking and don't believe you when you tell them that the theory of evolution doesn't say that.. they also love to point out when there is a disagreement within the scientific community over some of the finer points of evolution- they see the disagreement as proof that the theory isn't possible and don't believe it when you point out that the scientific method by it's nature is somewhat confrontational in that old ideas are reexamined and modified as new evidence comes in and gets proven better than what it replaces.

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    But they are also very quick to point out that they aren't the ones who are dogmatic (in other words, always in agreement) but instead the scientists are
    The dog, the dog, he's at it again!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cougar View Post
    "Shanghai, China" was 1st in all categories in 2009? I imagine if the U.S. only counted the cream of its math and science students, it could also "score" pretty highly. And how does one test "Reading" internationally?
    From what I remember one of the critiques of the PISA score is that it's filtered on school and city size, with a cutoff below which schools aren't counted.
    This means that weighing between urban/suburban/rural schools is different from country to country and since it also depends on the country which of them gets the funding, it basically means that in some countries they get the numbers for the best funded schools, in others they get the numbers for the worst funded schools.

    PISA is broken by design and it's meaningless to compare different countries, its only (moderate) usefulness is for comparing results from the same country in previous years.
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    The desire to compress complexity to a single datum and then extrapolate in the direction desired seems to have existed about as long as the single datum itself.

    The desire to compress complexity to a single datum, and then ignore that single datum, is even older.

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