Really trivial stuff that amuses you...

[Solfe]

Transliteration, again; there are several different schemes to render Mandarin in Latin characters. Taiwan still uses the Wade-Giles transliteration scheme for proper names, whereas mainland China uses Pinyin. In Wade-Giles, Beijing was Peking, as many will recall.

Grant Hutchison

I am a Latin American history major. I was required to take 2 classes on what is strangely called "Southeast Asia". That is apparently 1/4-1/3 of planet Earth. In Western textbooks, there is a convention to break up "Asia" into many different regions. Not for these classes. It's like Hannibal marching through the Himalayas.

The schemes to render various languages in Latin characters are all over the place between textbooks. "I can't even pronounce this stuff, let alone memorize it." I had 3 text books per semester and they all seemed to doing it differently. Half the time I couldn't even figure out text book A was talking about the same people and places as textbook B because of the spelling. I found myself suddenly understanding something and would like to know more.

"Wait, go back! That's interesting".
The professor would say, "We have 14 other countries and 3000 more years to go, we can't slow down now!"
"Dammit! This is like the Willy Wonka Boat Ride!"
"And the rowers keep on rowing," sung the professor.

Don't get my started on Philippines history, I understand less of that than I do China or Japan. It's mentioned tangentially in both Latin American studies and Southeast Asian studies.

I guess you could do what my professor did and travel the area you are studying.

[KaiYeves]

"B" and "P" seem to be ambiguous in Korea as well. When I was there -- holy cow, almost 50 years ago! -- you could see highway signs with distance to either "Pusan" or "Busan" within a few kilometers. Same city at the southern end of the peninsula.

“B” and “V” are ambiguous in Greek. In Athens you can see signs for “Votanic Gardens” and “Banilla Ice Cream”.

[grant hutchison]

“B” and “V” are ambiguous in Greek. In Athens you can see signs for “Votanic Gardens” and “Banilla Ice Cream”.

Yes. As you probably know, Ancient Greek had three bilabial plosives, π (p), β (b), and φ (p^h) and no labial fricatives. Modern Greek has reduced its plosives and acquired two fricatives, repurposing φ (f) and β (v), with μπ now doing duty for a /b/ sound. But I notice that the standard Modern Greek transliteration to Latin converts μπ to "b" if it's at the start of a word, but "mp" in the middle of a word.
So I have two questions about Modern Greek:
Is the "v" sound symbolized by β some sort of hybrid, like the Spanish bilabial fricative (Spanish Habana / English Havana)?
To what extent does the sound of μπ approximate "mp"? Is that merely a conventional digraph, like "ng" in English, or does it reflect a real sound quality?

Grant Hutchison

[Delvo]

Arabic had, within the era of recorded history, two sound shifts which only affected one member of a voiced-unvoiced pair, thus creating asymmetries where there had previously been symmetries: p→f but not b→v, and g→j (in most dialects including Standard) but not k→ch. The latter opened up a gap into which what was originally "Q" has migrated in some dialects. ("Q" is distinct from "K" by being articulated farther back, more like the back of the mouth or top of the throat instead of the middle of the mouth. It never did have a voiced counterpart in Arabic, but became voiced in some dialects, and then shifted forward to the "G" position when the original "G" became "J".)

As a result, you can see whether a foreign word was imported to Arabic before or after the shifts based on what happened to its sounds. For example, when they would talk about the Greek dude named "Perseus" in ancient times, they imported it with a P, then the shift happened and he became "Ferseus/Farsaus" to them. But they didn't talk about him a whole lot, so there are later writings by Arabs who weren't very familiar with him and imported the name from Greek again, this time as "Berseus/Barsaus" because B was the closest they could get to P by then.

And "supreme" becomes "surbeem" because they find it easier to pronounce an R before another consonant instead of after. I found out about that one by ordering a bizza.

Another funny case with those sound shifts is the Persian concept of a dragon who usually stays hidden in the night sky, slithering between the stars, but occasionally causes an eclipse by biting/swallowing the sun or moon and spitting/vomiting it back out. The Persians named it "Gauzahar/Gauzahir", which the Arabs imported with the original G, then the shift happened so it became "Jauzahar/Jauzahir". But then the Persians started using the Arabic alphabet, which didn't have a letter for "G" by then, so they made their own out of the letter for "K". So now its Persian spelling uses a modified K to spell what was originally their own word with a "G"-sound, to get around a sound shift which didn't happen in Persian.

Seeing things like that in other languages makes it easier to understand how English can have equivalent blind spots.

Is the "v" sound symbolized by β some sort of hybrid, like the Spanish bilabial fricative (Spanish Habana / English Havana)?

I don't speak the language but what I've read says no, Beta (Vita) and Phi (Fi) are labiodental now (F & V).

It can be tricky to determine that, if you're reading a source that uses the IPA, because the IPA uses the letter Beta (Vita) to represent the voiced bilabial fricative and something derived from Phi (Fi) to represent the unvoiced one. But those symbols were chosen simply because something was needed to fill in those gaps in the table and people figured that the Greek letters must have been bilabial fricatives in a temporary intermediate stage at some time.

Ordinarily I'd say it would be no shock to find that some dialects go one way and others go another way, even if foreign writers don't recognize the distinction, but in this case I doubt it, because bilabial fricatives are rather unstable sounds. They have a tendency to fall to one side of the fence or the other (becoming either plosives or labiodentals). In fact, that tendency is responsible for all known occurrences of the sounds /f/ or /v/ in any language. (There was a recently published article offering a theory about why, but, even without that explanation, it's long been known that those two sounds are either mostly or entirely "recent" inventions, deriving from either /b/, /p/, or /w/ within recorded history. The theorized explanation is that /f/ and /v/ became easier to pronounce when people's tooth positions shifted as a result of changes in diet that came with agriculture.)

To what extent does the sound of μπ approximate "mp"? Is that merely a conventional digraph, like "ng" in English, or does it reflect a real sound quality?

It's entirely a digraph. The sound /b/ doesn't exist in Greek anymore, so they have no sound for which such a digraph would be needed; the digraph is only used when necessary for foreign words or names, like "Mparak Ompama". The closest English phenomenon is our attempts to represent /x/ as "ch", "kh", "x", or "χ".

[Jens]

And "supreme" becomes "surbeem" because they find it easier to pronounce an R before another consonant instead of after. I found out about that one by ordering a bizza.

That phenomenon, called "metathesis," is not uncommon. In English a well-known example is "comfortable". When spelled, the "r" comes before the "t," but when we pronounce it, we put the "r" after the "t" ("comfterble").

Also, we mainly pronounce "asterisk" as "asteriks".

[Trebuchet]

Then there's "Febuary". Nobody pronounces that first R.

[profloater]

Then there's "Febuary". Nobody pronounces that first R.

Err, guilty, said as four syllables, like january,��

[grant hutchison]

Arabic had, within the era of recorded history, two sound shifts which only affected one member of a voiced-unvoiced pair, thus creating asymmetries where there had previously been symmetries: p→f but not b→v, and g→j (in most dialects including Standard) but not k→ch. The latter opened up a gap into which what was originally "Q" has migrated in some dialects. ("Q" is distinct from "K" by being articulated farther back, more like the back of the mouth or top of the throat instead of the middle of the mouth. It never did have a voiced counterpart in Arabic, but became voiced in some dialects, and then shifted forward to the "G" position when the original "G" became "J".)

As a result, you can see whether a foreign word was imported to Arabic before or after the shifts based on what happened to its sounds. For example, when they would talk about the Greek dude named "Perseus" in ancient times, they imported it with a P, then the shift happened and he became "Ferseus/Farsaus" to them. But they didn't talk about him a whole lot, so there are later writings by Arabs who weren't very familiar with him and imported the name from Greek again, this time as "Berseus/Barsaus" because B was the closest they could get to P by then.

And "supreme" becomes "surbeem" because they find it easier to pronounce an R before another consonant instead of after. I found out about that one by ordering a bizza.

Another funny case with those sound shifts is the Persian concept of a dragon who usually stays hidden in the night sky, slithering between the stars, but occasionally causes an eclipse by biting/swallowing the sun or moon and spitting/vomiting it back out. The Persians named it "Gauzahar/Gauzahir", which the Arabs imported with the original G, then the shift happened so it became "Jauzahar/Jauzahir". But then the Persians started using the Arabic alphabet, which didn't have a letter for "G" by then, so they made their own out of the letter for "K". So now its Persian spelling uses a modified K to spell what was originally their own word with a "G"-sound, to get around a sound shift which didn't happen in Persian.

Seeing things like that in other languages makes it easier to understand how English can have equivalent blind spots.

I don't speak the language but what I've read says no, Beta (Vita) and Phi (Fi) are labiodental now (F & V).

It can be tricky to determine that, if you're reading a source that uses the IPA, because the IPA uses the letter Beta (Vita) to represent the voiced bilabial fricative and something derived from Phi (Fi) to represent the unvoiced one. But those symbols were chosen simply because something was needed to fill in those gaps in the table and people figured that the Greek letters must have been bilabial fricatives in a temporary intermediate stage at some time.

Ordinarily I'd say it would be no shock to find that some dialects go one way and others go another way, even if foreign writers don't recognize the distinction, but in this case I doubt it, because bilabial fricatives are rather unstable sounds. They have a tendency to fall to one side of the fence or the other (becoming either plosives or labiodentals). In fact, that tendency is responsible for all known occurrences of the sounds /f/ or /v/ in any language. (There was a recently published article offering a theory about why, but, even without that explanation, it's long been known that those two sounds are either mostly or entirely "recent" inventions, deriving from either /b/, /p/, or /w/ within recorded history. The theorized explanation is that /f/ and /v/ became easier to pronounce when people's tooth positions shifted as a result of changes in diet that came with agriculture.)

It's entirely a digraph. The sound /b/ doesn't exist in Greek anymore, so they have no sound for which such a digraph would be needed; the digraph is only used when necessary for foreign words or names, like "Mparak Ompama". The closest English phenomenon is our attempts to represent /x/ as "ch", "kh", "x", or "χ".

Thanks for all this. Very interesting.

Grant Hutchison

[PetersCreek]

Then there's "Febuary". Nobody pronounces that first R.

This nobody does...but then, it's my birth month.

[grant hutchison]

That phenomenon, called "metathesis," is not uncommon. In English a well-known example is "comfortable". When spelled, the "r" comes before the "t," but when we pronounce it, we put the "r" after the "t" ("comfterble").

Also, we mainly pronounce "asterisk" as "asteriks".

In these parts, comfortable is kʌmfə(r)təb(ə)l. Non-rhotic accents omit the "r", but I'm not aware of hearing it render with a "ter"--it actually took me several attempts to pronounce what you'd written, because it feels completely unnatural. Asteriks is strictly dialectical or jocular.

Then there's "Febuary". Nobody pronounces that first R.

Febuary is a pronunciation that makes folks around here flinch. I still remember the first time I ever heard it--1971. My late friend Brian used to play American Pie endlessly that year, and the main thing I remember from that tedious episode (apart from how long and incomprehensible the song was) is "Feb-yoo-ary made me shiver / With every paper I'd deliver". It seemed such a bizarre pronunciation I remember wondering if there was some sort of secret message embedded in it. (As you do, if you've listened to American Pie eight times in six hours.)

Grant Hutchison

[KaiYeves]

Yes. As you probably know, Ancient Greek had three bilabial plosives, π (p), β (b), and φ (p^h) and no labial fricatives. Modern Greek has reduced its plosives and acquired two fricatives, repurposing φ (f) and β (v), with μπ now doing duty for a /b/ sound. But I notice that the standard Modern Greek transliteration to Latin converts μπ to "b" if it's at the start of a word, but "mp" in the middle of a word.
So I have two questions about Modern Greek:
Is the "v" sound symbolized by β some sort of hybrid, like the Spanish bilabial fricative (Spanish Habana / English Havana)?
To what extent does the sound of μπ approximate "mp"? Is that merely a conventional digraph, like "ng" in English, or does it reflect a real sound quality?

Grant Hutchison

You’re asking the wrong woman, I did terrible in Greek School!

[grant hutchison]

You’re asking the wrong woman, I did terrible in Greek School!

Well, that's a disappointment.

Grant Hutchison

[Roger E. Moore]

Back to taste-testing gingersnap cookies. Oh, the pain, the pain.

[The Backroad Astronomer]

Back to taste-testing gingersnap cookies. Oh, the pain, the pain.

I feel for you.

[Jens]

This nobody does...but then, it's my birth month.

Yeah, I also pronounce the r. I guess it’s a dialect thing, and that in some places in the States they don’t.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[grant hutchison]

Yeah, I also pronounce the r. I guess it’s a dialect thing, and that in some places in the States they don’t.

Don McLean, who it says here wrote and performed American Pie, was born in New York state. First place to look.

Grant Hutchison

[Solfe]

Don McLean, who it says here wrote and performed American Pie, was born in New York state. First place to look.

Grant Hutchison

I was born in New York, but grew up speaking Italian. When I say the r in February, people think I'm Canadian or Spanish. When I spell my last name as clearly as I can: Vee ay vee ea... I use the Italian pronunciation for letters but at least they can get the letters correct. If I go with the American pronunciation of letters with my name, people tangle up all of the V's and vowels. Biperito, Deverio, and so on. It's actually kind of comical.

"Phil" doesn't work over the phone. It isn't supported by English, I guess. "Did you say, Bill, Will, Jill?" or any combination of sounds other than "Fill" or "Phil". Oddly, if I say "Filippo" they get that every time. They question it, but they can at least hear the proper letters.

My wife has been known to say, "Jesus. I didn't sign up for this."

[Trebuchet]

Don McLean, who it says here wrote and performed American Pie, was born in New York state. First place to look.

Grant Hutchison

For the longest time I thought he was Canadian. But he's not.

[Noclevername]

I feel for you.

Did you say feel or feed?

[Jim]

I pronounce it "Feb-ru-ar-y."

But I do say "Wends-day." Or, if I'm in a mood, "Wo-dins-day."

[profloater]

I pronounce it "Feb-ru-ar-y."

But I do say "Wends-day." Or, if I'm in a mood, "Wo-dins-day."

I got into the habit , when employed, of calling Wednesday Hump day, (being the centre of the week) while Friday of course was Poets day. But I am with you on Fe ru ar y.

[Trebuchet]

I got into the habit , when employed, of calling Wednesday Hump day, (being the centre of the week) while Friday of course was Poets day. But I am with you on Fe ru ar y.

You leave out the "B"?

[profloater]

You leave out the "B"?

Guilty ; I did not mean to leave out the B, my bad typing. When I dictate, the system makes worse howlers.

[Trebuchet]

The US Coast Guard Icebreaker Polar Star departed Seattle yesterday on its way to the Arctic. But it hasn't got far, I can see it from my window sitting stationary off the mouth of Sequim Bay!
In the past we've seen Navy ships returning from long deployments sitting out here for a day or more waiting for their scheduled arrival time. That's gotta be tough on the crews.

[Extravoice]

The US Coast Guard Icebreaker Polar Star departed Seattle yesterday on its way to the Arctic. But it hasn't got far, I can see it from my window sitting stationary off the mouth of Sequim Bay!

You’ve uncovered the great Arctic hoax!!!
:shifty;

[Torsten]

Continuing with the r in February... I pronounce it. Many where I live don't.

For the first time in nine years I put up a string of outdoor Christmas lights. It was a smaller effort than I used to make, just along the posts and the beam of my home's small veranda.

Two things about this amuse me. I've only ever done this sort of decorating when my children were living here (at least part time). I've recently had an adult child boomerang home, so that must be the explanation. The other is that the world of Christmas lighting has passed by me. Everyone has strings of LEDs, but mine are the old incandescents. Oh well, they're only on a few hours in the evening, and they look... friendlier.

[Solfe]

When my wife, Kitty decides to play a long with sci-fi TV shows, she doesn't play around.


Kitty: Is that a tardigrade?
Me: No, I think it's a space spider. Why?
Kitty: I had a tardigrade named James, once.
Me: Oh, yeah?
Kitty: He's over there... someplace.

[Jens]

Don McLean, who it says here wrote and performed American Pie, was born in New York state. First place to look.

Grant Hutchison

That's funny, because I come from the same general area (I was born in New Haven, which is on the same seaboard as New Rochelle, and I lived in Westchester County when I was a kid... It's possible it's also one of those things where I hear myself pronouncing it, but to somebody who pronounces the R more clearly they would think I'm not. But it also may be that I've lived outside of the US for a long time, so may have acquired a confused accent. I also pronounce "direction" and "data" both ways depending on the situation. I wonder if that is common.

[Noclevername]

I pronounce it "Feb-ru-ar-y."

But I do say "Wends-day." Or, if I'm in a mood, "Wo-dins-day."

Odinstag. I'd write it in runes but my keyboard will not accommodate.

As for Feb-you-airy, as with all words the way I learned it as a child is of course the right and correct way for everyone else in the world to pronounce it.

[The Backroad Astronomer]

During a power outage who can tell who has a power generator.