How long until we have colonize Mars?

[mutleyeng]

Perhaps we should ask, "what is the demotivation?" Except that tends to get into forbidden topics. We have the technology and know how to build the tools to do it. The only thing we're missing is the will to "git 'r done."

well thats exactly the point, the will to do it isnt there without good reason. When i was a kid all the talk was of great under water cities of the future. I read a story the other day about some libertarian planning to build a floating community out in international waters - id put good money on that never happening, and yet it would be easy compared to building a space station.

[Ara Pacis]

well thats exactly the point, the will to do it isnt there without good reason. When i was a kid all the talk was of great under water cities of the future. I read a story the other day about some libertarian planning to build a floating community out in international waters - id put good money on that never happening, and yet it would be easy compared to building a space station.

Because some people think there is a good reason doesn't necessarily mean there is a good reason.

BTW, to answer your earlier question about how large the rotating habitat needs to be: assuming you can combine mars gravity with rotating gravity with simple addition, you can go with ~62 m radius at 3RPM (the max) or ~140 m radius at 2 RPM. If you want it to be a hollow ring, then just stack them on top of one another (they'll be angled with respect to each other and will look like a pagoda from the outside) with an elevator car on gimbles to get to the hub and then elsewhere in the compound. If you want a cylinder, then the floors will resemble a stack of round-bottomed bowls in cross section, I think. but you wouldn't have to live your entire life in side, just enough to establish bone density and other physiology. The rest of the time you can be in non-rotating spaces under large domes of caverns or outside in a p-suit.

[mutleyeng]

Because some people think there is a good reason doesn't necessarily mean there is a good reason.

Those "some people" would also need to be the ones with the means to do it - which is perhaps why we dont have floating communities on the open seas

[Noclevername]

Because some people think there is a good reason doesn't necessarily mean there is a good reason.

"Good reason" being a very subjective description, of course.

This is turning into another "why colonize" thread. Been there, done that.

[Ara Pacis]

Those "some people" would also need to be the ones with the means to do it - which is perhaps why we dont have floating communities on the open seas

You forgot the context. "Some people" was referring to those who think there are good reasons why its not doable.

[swampyankee]

Yes you could provide centrifugal gravity - but what would that be like to live in your whole life? I see it as a viable way of enabling longer distance travel, sure.
Every time you get up and walk around you have to do so in the right orientation to rotation(s)...hows that going to be, trying to live everyday lives in those conditions

Bluntly, I don't see that as a significant problem. People walk in difficult circumstances all the time: ice, loose rock, wet grass, etc (personally, I find marble floors and wet, leather soles a really bad combination).

As for living my whole life on a space station? I've heard many people who've moved to the US Southwest describing their days as "house => car => {work|mall} => car => house" and never doing anything outside. Don't see much difference between the two.

[publiusr]

More on hard aerobraking
http://up-ship.com/blog/?p=15788

[danscope]

You have to grasp the concept of " return on investment " . Once this elemental concept of business and enterprise becomes a
consistent reality in your mind, you will begin to see space in the very real light of reason. IE.... we put up comunications satelites
because we make money from them..... every day . They pay for themselves. There is a very real profit in the near future. In fact, they begin making money right away.

[Ara Pacis]

You have to grasp the concept of " return on investment " . Once this elemental concept of business and enterprise becomes a
consistent reality in your mind, you will begin to see space in the very real light of reason. IE.... we put up comunications satelites
because we make money from them..... every day . They pay for themselves. There is a very real profit in the near future. In fact, they begin making money right away.

This is why business may not do it, and why it will depend on other organizations that grasp different concepts of "'return on investment'".

[danscope]

Like print your own money? ( ) . If you look at the history of space, you will see a trend. There are reasons for that.
Television is one thing. Reality is quite another.
Well, I have said my piece. You are welcome to your opinion. Good luck coming up with several trillion dollars in cash.
Should be easy.

[Ara Pacis]

Like print your own money? ( ) . If you look at the history of space, you will see a trend. There are reasons for that.
Television is one thing. Reality is quite another.
Well, I have said my piece. You are welcome to your opinion. Good luck coming up with several trillion dollars in cash.
Should be easy.

Piece of what?

Do you know why the Egyptians built the Pyramids?

[ravens_cry]

I do think it's worth doing. I think spreading humanity throughout the cosmos would be wonderful, and I would dearly love to see the start of that in my life time.

[swampyankee]

ROI -- more accurately, quick ROI -- is why I think business will not go beyond geosynchronous orbit in my lifetime or, for that matter, my great-grandchildren's lifetime, unless government pays for the development of the enabling technologies and subsidizes space business past geosynchronous orbit quite heavily. Do remember that passenger air travel was subsidized from its inception until quite late in the 20th Century. So, for that matter, were most of the great trans-Atlantic liners (SS America, RMS Queen Elizabeth, Normandie, etc).

[danscope]

Yes, but the advantage and impact of local transportation was immediate, useful and directly worth while.
Sending people to Jupiter for fun and profit????? Hmmm..... And mars? Try sitting on a very lonesome dry gravel pit north of Saskatchewan with a filmy plastic bag over your head. Mars on a good day.Better have your OBA with you. And if you don't know what OBA is, better study space 101...again.
We need to work on clean,fresh water and clean air and growing food fit for consumption..... in a big way.

[Noclevername]

Yes, but the advantage and impact of local transportation was immediate, useful and directly worth while.
Sending people to Jupiter for fun and profit????? Hmmm..... And mars? Try sitting on a very lonesome dry gravel pit north of Saskatchewan with a filmy plastic bag over your head. Mars on a good day.Better have your OBA with you. And if you don't know what OBA is, better study space 101...again.

Again, "fun" and "profit" are only two motivations, there are plenty of others. As I said in another thread, humanity has accomplished large-scale, longterm projects before during more difficult economic times, so we know we have the capacity.

We need to work on clean,fresh water and clean air and growing food fit for consumption..... in a big way.

And working on doing that in a small way will teach us how to apply those lessons on a larger scale-- as well as how to build closed-cycle ecologies that can be placed anywhere, including space or Mars.

[Sardonicone]

Although I am somewhat hopeful of an eventual colonization the Solar System---the current problems of the Earth have become so pressing that--it may take a several "revolutions of new and better technology" to overcome the current mess that we have put ourselves.

In short, we may need to re-invest in our youth--so they want to pursue Science and Engineering related degrees. This would put an inevitable critical mass of people who face a make-or-break proposition of wanting to invest themselves into entrepreneurial "science". I hope I am making some sense here. The American spirit has always been associated with situations which "true revolutions of technology have been" breaks from status quo technology.

You can't just throw money at the young and expect them to be inspired. A whole generation of innovators were inspired due to the Moon Landings. Make a commitment to go to Mars, and you'll get inspired youth.

[Noclevername]

Make a commitment to go to Mars, and you'll get inspired youth.

Several such commitments have been made-- and broken-- since the end of Apollo. I think it'll take more than yet another politician's promise-- it'll take an actual landing to inspire today's jaded youth. Action, not words, is what they'll respond to.

[Sardonicone]

Several such commitments have been made-- and broken-- since the end of Apollo. I think it'll take more than yet another politician's promise-- it'll take an actual landing to inspire today's jaded youth. Action, not words, is what they'll respond to.

I apologize for not being clear. That's what I meant by "commitment". Idle talk and soaring rhetoric do not, in my mind, constitute an actual commitment.

[Noclevername]

I apologize for not being clear. That's what I meant by "commitment". Idle talk and soaring rhetoric do not, in my mind, constitute an actual commitment.

Fair enough.

[SkepticJ]

Aside from scientific exploration, I don't see why anyone would want to live on Mars.

It's cold, dry, you can't breath the atmo, and the soil is toxic. What does Mars have to offer that the Atacama desert doesn't?

What's the motivation for dropping your equipment into a strong gravity well instead of landing on an asteroid or comet--which are concentrated resources with anemic gravity?

[Noclevername]

What does Mars have to offer that the Atacama desert doesn't?

Distance from Earth?

What's the motivation for dropping your equipment into a strong gravity well instead of landing on an asteroid or comet--which are concentrated resources with anemic gravity?

I dunno, I'm with you on the resources vs. gravity idea. But there are people who want to live on Mars, I've met some.

[ravens_cry]

Mars is beautiful in an austere way.
Every time I see new pictures from Opportunity, I think, "I want to go there".
I want to step in that rusted dust, I want to hear the wind howl thin against my visor, I want to see the sun rise over a world of ancient beauty.
It is not a living world, but it is not quite dead. It has its rhythms and moods, its seasons and changes.
If someone gave me the opportunity to go, I would do it in a heartbeat.

[SkepticJ]

But there are people who want to live on Mars, I've met some.

Have they actually been to a desert before? It's the whole imagination vs. reality thing.

"I'd like to live on Tatooine."

I've been in Death Valley. It sucks hard, but it's paradise compared to Mars.

[Noclevername]

Have they actually been to a desert before? It's the whole imagination vs. reality thing.

"I'd like to live on Tatooine."

I've been in Death Valley. It sucks hard, but it's paradise compared to Mars.

At least one was a scientist who specialized (he said, at least) in studying Mars.

[SkepticJ]

That's different, then. He'd be there doing sciece, learning about the place. Like scientists in Antarctica; no one just moves there.

[Noclevername]

That's different, then. He'd be there doing sciece, learning about the place. Like scientists in Antarctica; no one just moves there.

I've heard others say they want to settle there and raise families; I guess some people just like a challenge. "Not because it is easy, but because it is hard".

[SkepticJ]

But they're not moving to the Atacama desert, or the middle of the Sahara or the Australian Outback in the interim. Places that are far easier to live in than Mars, and are only jet flights and car rides away.

What's stopping them?

[Noclevername]

But they're not moving to the Atacama desert, or the middle of the Sahara or the Australian Outback in the interim. Places that are far easier to live in than Mars, and are only jet flights and car rides away.

What's stopping them?

They're not Mars? I don't know, I'm not one of them. But they seem quite dedicated to the idea.

[danscope]

" Dead? No.....no, it's resting , see? Beautiful plumage, the Norwegian Blue. It's just pining for the fiords,ya know? " .

[ravens_cry]

I've been in Death Valley. It sucks hard, but it's paradise compared to Mars.

Much more water and carbon dioxide on Mars. If you ever want to go else where they could be cracked and combined into methane and oxygen, or water alone for hydrogen and oxygen.