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Thread: Ways to show your support of our forum

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tensor View Post
    I realize it.
    Oops...

    Actually I was speaking of the cosmoquest overlords, not "ordinary" (and no, I don't think there is anything ordinary about you) posters. History indicates they can be pretty slow on the uptake.

    Sorry for the confusion.


    I'm just not sure, at this point, whether it's worth my time and trouble to voice my opinion. After watching the way the merger, and its aftermath, was handled, I look at it as any opinion I voice will just be ignored.
    Sad isn't it?
    The facts, gentlemen, and nothing but the facts, for careful eyes are narrowly watching. Isaac Asimov

  2. #32
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    <jest>
    I vote for a new policy:

    No mod/admin/owner posts about "changes" or "policy" on the weekends. Doubly so on holiday weekends. You know, the times when people relax and have free time to share with friends and family or in our case, internet people. "Change announcements" are begging users to kill off some precious free time for the staff.

    The best days for "change announcements" is when a horrible disaster occurs. Or failing that, wait for politician or a celebrity dig themselves into a very deep mess. Ashton Kutcher, Lindsay Lohan, Paris Hilton and Charlie Sheen updates don't count, it has to be a real celebrity with surprising problems. Never shoot for the "slow news day", especially holiday weekends.

    </jest>
    Solfe

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by geonuc View Post
    I'd have liked a BAUT t-shirt, as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Solfe View Post
    If you are taking suggestions for gear, I would like to get a coffee mug, water bottle or red tinted flashlight.
    I would suggest that there be something tangible offered. I've seen sites where donations were requested, but they received little until they started offering inexpensive trinkets, and then things turned around dramatically. Also, it works better if you start at a lower donation level. People can self-justify $20 much more easily that $60. Typically sites would offer one thing for $20, something a bit more interesting for $40, and so on.

    "The problem with quotes on the Internet is that it is hard to verify their authenticity." — Abraham Lincoln

    I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?

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  4. #34
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    Re: Ways to show your support of our forum

    Quote Originally Posted by Van Rijn View Post
    I would suggest that there be something tangible offered. I've seen sites where donations were requested, but they received little until they started offering inexpensive trinkets, and then things turned around dramatically. Also, it works better if you start at a lower donation level. People can self-justify $20 much more easily that $60. Typically sites would offer one thing for $20, something a bit more interesting for $40, and so on.
    Thanks for the suggestions, I'll discuss them with the team when we're face to face at AAS.

    I've read the above comments and will try to get to them tomorrow morning. Currently in an airport.

    Best,
    Scott

  5. #35
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    I volunteered to donate to help pay for BAUT, and most
    recently to help pay for professional programmer costs of
    fixing the problem with inaccessible archived private mail.
    Those offers were declined beause they weren't needed.
    When I made those offers, they were to friends.

    Now, just a few months later, requests for donations are
    coming from people who I do not know, but who appear
    to be working for pay. This is straight out of a Dilbert
    cartoon.

    Pamela's blog (linked in the original post) says there
    was "a huge surge in traffic". I presume that means to
    CosmoQuest, because the traffic to the forum has been
    falling over the last year, not increasing. She also said
    there was "a huge surge in server costs, which wasn’t
    anticipated". Really? What were the costs before the
    merger? What are the costs now? If the increase in
    costs were due to the traffic of the BAUT forum being
    added to that of CosmoQuest, how could they *not*
    have been anticipated? If the increase in costs was
    due to something else, then what was it due to?

    -- Jeff, in Minneapolis

  6. #36
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    I guess a T-shirt could be easily generated, I must check with a few friends here on the how and what.
    Then I would need a rather big high-res version of the BAUT logo, something for the new year.
    All comments made in red are moderator comments. Please, read the rules of the forum here, the special rules for the ATM section here and conspiracy theories. If you think a post is inappropriate, don't comment on it in thread but report it using the /!\ button in the lower left corner of each message. But most of all, have fun!

    Catch me on twitter: @tusenfem
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  7. #37
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    I have some comments and questions about the forum
    management, and some comments and questions about
    the colors.

    First the colors.

    A few years ago when BAUT upgraded to a new version of
    vBulletin, I complained that the new colors did not have
    enough contrast, making things difficult to read. Some time
    later I think there was another change, and the colors then
    were not so bad. Also at about that time, it became possible
    for each individual user to select the colors BAUT displayed.
    I have never tried to use that facility. I was afraid I'd make
    things worse.

    When BAUT and CosmoQuest merged, a few of the blue items
    changed to dark reddish-brown. Other items remained blue.
    That is what I am seeing now. It is not a problem for me.
    When it first changed I thought it was a bit clumsy to have
    a slightly mixed-up palette like that, but it wasn't particularly
    ugly. So I don't understand the complaints about the colors.
    It certainly isn't beautiful, it certainly isn't as well-coordinated
    as the colors were before the merger, but it is readable and
    inoffensive. Maybe I'm not seeing what others are seeing.
    But as I say, I've never changed from the defaults.

    Now about the management.

    I wrote a few paragraphs here, then paused, and see that in
    post #19, Gillianren has said much of what I wanted to say,
    including some of the most difficult things to know how to
    say. The reference to Dilbert in my previous post is the only
    remnant of what I had written about management that I kept.

    One suggestion: Make the Bad Astronomy / Universe Today
    logo at the top of the web pages a much larger fraction of
    the size of the whole banner. It is currently so extremely
    small that it looks like it is intended to denigrate BAUT.

    Make it AT LEAST twice the linear dimensions it has now.

    -- Jeff, in Minneapolis

  8. #38
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    I spent a spell off the board and found it was now CQ on return, so I missed the discussion and transition.

    In principle:
    - the owners of any private site are free to do as they choose
    - users accessing free sites do not have many justifiable grounds for complaint

    In practice:
    - forums in particular acquire and maintain value via user content, not site content
    - a sense of community among regular users is hard to build, but very easy to destroy

    I am not offended by being asked for a donation, even if the issue has a confusing or contradictory history. Things change. But I am very worried by the sense I am getting from the posts above that users who are important to me are sounding disenchanted and, worse, alienated.

    As a pure freeloader not much able to donate nor provide the foundational posts that drive value here, I don't have a right to complain. But I am quaking in my boots a bit, since I have lived through the rapid decline and death of two great forums due to policy change disputes.

    I surely hope the new owners will become more cognizant of the need shown in this thread to establish greater rapport with users. Can we tread carefully and hash this out nicely, please?

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
    I spent a spell off the board and found it was now CQ on return, so I missed the discussion and transition.

    In principle:
    - the owners of any private site are free to do as they choose
    - users accessing free sites do not have many justifiable grounds for complaint

    In practice:
    - forums in particular acquire and maintain value via user content, not site content
    - a sense of community among regular users is hard to build, but very easy to destroy

    I am not offended by being asked for a donation, even if the issue has a confusing or contradictory history. Things change. But I am very worried by the sense I am getting from the posts above that users who are important to me are sounding disenchanted and, worse, alienated.

    As a pure freeloader not much able to donate nor provide the foundational posts that drive value here, I don't have a right to complain. But I am quaking in my boots a bit, since I have lived through the rapid decline and death of two great forums due to policy change disputes.

    I surely hope the new owners will become more cognizant of the need shown in this thread to establish greater rapport with users. Can we tread carefully and hash this out nicely, please?
    Like Hlalfordaes, I don't feel I have a dog in this fight particulalrly, I understand Cosmoquest has a mission aside from this forum and may want funding, and like Hlalfordaes I'm hardly a founding member (although I do go back to the days when we were still BaBB) and I lack the knowledge and training to provide insightful astronomy posts (when Sci-Tech gets into human biology I'm a little stronger), I don't go into ATM particularly these days since I don't have the astrophysics or maths to really contribute for example. I also can't really donate (a student loan doesn't go very far to live on, and after christmas as well...) but I too am *very* concerned about the level of dissatisfaction I'm seeing expressed here. Whilst I may not have always seen eye to eye with RAF, he is a longstanding member who has contributed much to the forum and I respect him for that. As for losing Gillianren... well we might as well lose JayUtah... her loss would I think be catastrophic for all of us BA vets.

    I feel the forum management need to take a good look at communicating with the membership. I'm getting the impression that BAUT members are still feeling rather sidelined by the merger and are concerned about BAUT's mission being lost here. Even if the managment have no intentions of doing so they should be aware that regardless of intentions, this is a sphere where perception is vital, and it is certainly the case that BAUT has in a lot of ways been battered by the merger (we lost our name and url: one of the largest astronomy forums in existence) and as far as a lot of us BAUTians are concerned if I may be blunt, we don't yet know the Cosmoquest management from Adam, so we don't have the resevoir of trust that accumulates over time. Unlike say ToSeek, Frasier or the BA we can't point to the cosmoquest admins and say "well I may not like it much but they've always acted well towards the community in the past so I'll trust their judgement", given time and communication this will change but that time and communication *cannot* be skipped or rushed.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infinity Watcher View Post
    Unlike say ToSeek, Frasier or the BA we can't point to the cosmoquest admins and say "well I may not like it much but they've always acted well towards the community in the past so I'll trust their judgement", given time and communication this will change but that time and communication *cannot* be skipped or rushed.
    Unfortunately, a big part of the problem is that we do know what to expect from Fraser (server support only) and the BA (sweet jack). Pamela, well, that remains to be seen, but I'm not encouraged. Speaking for myself, I'm content to be left alone to the extent that this is still possible. If something gets added, fine. If not, fine. What I'm increasingly unhappy about is the apparent reality that Cosmoquest is going to wind up being a net loss for BAUT's community.

    / Fraser did say that google ads provided just enough revenue for BAUT to break even, and as I recall, they had been entirely acceptable to the membership.
    "Words that make questions may not be questions at all."
    - Neil deGrasse Tyson, answering loaded question in ten words or less
    at a 2010 talk MCed by Stephen Colbert.

  11. #41
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    I think we need a map of the CQ Brand. Personally, I am on G+ and Facebook, BAUTForum, listen to Astronomy Today and play with Ice Hunters and Moon Mappers. I get the distinct impression that I do not know the extent of half the brand.

    More importantly, I have very little cash to donate and I need to do so wisely. I wish there was a donate page that covered all the options that are associated with the CQ Brand. I am intensely sympathetic to the server gang and Telescope4Teachers, because those seem to be real people, directly benefiting from the funds. I would pick one of them because they're "science with a face". I haven't donated because I just became aware of these things.

    I have a feeling that there may be a half dozen (or more) things that fall under the charitable giving and CQ umbrella and I simply don't know about them. A map of donation possibilities would be very useful.

    Additionally, the road map of CQ would give everyone involved an idea of what is CQ doing. My impression so far is that there are a half dozen channels of communication and all of them are seen as equivalent. Obviously, that isn't true.

    If I were king of the CQ, I would get Fraser's name off the the UT updates and use his account to feed in his G+ posts (edit) and his real posts here. UT, Pamela and the CQ blog should have the same sort of G+ feed into the forum. Astronomycast should have an official "Bautforum" account. Maybe we could get Phil back here under the same style. The ground rules would be simple, reply on G+ or blog via those services to keep the policy of the BAUTForum intact. All threads would be locked on arrival.

    Just my two cents.
    Solfe

  12. #42
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    I'm happy with the changes, except the loss of the spell check. I have not found an alternative way to check my spelling. I am sure many of you have noticed the doubling of spelling errors in my posts. Neil

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by neilzero View Post
    I'm happy with the changes, except the loss of the spell check. I have not found an alternative way to check my spelling. I am sure many of you have noticed the doubling of spelling errors in my posts. Neil
    What browser do you use? Several browsers offer native onboard spell-check.
    "Words that make questions may not be questions at all."
    - Neil deGrasse Tyson, answering loaded question in ten words or less
    at a 2010 talk MCed by Stephen Colbert.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moose View Post
    Unfortunately, a big part of the problem is that we do know what to expect from Fraser (server support only) and the BA (sweet jack). Pamela, well, that remains to be seen, but I'm not encouraged. Speaking for myself, I'm content to be left alone to the extent that this is still possible. If something gets added, fine. If not, fine. What I'm increasingly unhappy about is the apparent reality that Cosmoquest is going to wind up being a net loss for BAUT's community.

    / Fraser did say that google ads provided just enough revenue for BAUT to break even, and as I recall, they had been entirely acceptable to the membership.
    You're right of course: I meant to refer to when they were active administrators, I should have been clearer (ok I've got no idea how active Frasier was on UT before the merger since I wasn't there, but back in the days of BaBB the BA was active, and I couldn't remember the other administrators off the top of my head (please don't hurt me for that other admins) )

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Root View Post
    So I don't understand the complaints about the colors.
    For me it is that now i have the choice to stick with the blue (which i consider better), but that this choice would be removed. If i were forced to use the red theme i would consider it a slight decline in usability (it has way too much contrast for me - the colours are too strong). I don't particularly mind declines in usability, it's that i cannot find a way to justify this one. The default style is not broken, it doesn't particularly require extra work or implementation, it's just there doing its job. So it's a decline in usability without tangible benefit on some other front. Why remove a user choice just because you can?

  16. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.A.F. View Post
    ...can you explain why people here should not be a bit upset about this??
    Jeez Louise, R.A.F., did you misread the OP and think that there's now a subscription fee for this forum? If you don't want to donate or you can't spare the cash, then don't donate. End of story. I see no basis for anyone to become so "upset" about this. I recall people offering to donate so we could keep the BAUT name. Could we have guaranteed $5-10 grand every year? Not likely. Like Leon Lederman says, "Physics is not a religion. If it were, we'd have a much easier time raising money."

    And what difference has the "traumatic" name change actually made? I just don't see much difference.
    Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.

  17. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cougar View Post
    End of story.
    you think?

  18. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moose View Post
    Unfortunately, a big part of the problem is that we do know what to expect from Fraser (server support only) and the BA (sweet jack). Pamela, well, that remains to be seen, but I'm not encouraged. Speaking for myself, I'm content to be left alone to the extent that this is still possible. If something gets added, fine. If not, fine. What I'm increasingly unhappy about is the apparent reality that Cosmoquest is going to wind up being a net loss for BAUT's community.
    This is, of course, sad but true. One of the things I liked about how the BABB/UT merger was handled was that Phil and Fraser went onto one another's boards and were willing and able to answer questions. (Phil still talked to us at the time!) It was explained exactly why the changes were happening and what benefits there would be to the community as a whole; money may have been discussed, but it wasn't a major concern so far as I recall. This time, essentially the only benefit this was supposed to have was about money and what it could do for us. Dedicated tech people! Someone to pay for the server! All the benefits of the CosmoQuest grants! Personally, the way I supported my forum was to oppose this merger in the first place.

    / Fraser did say that google ads provided just enough revenue for BAUT to break even, and as I recall, they had been entirely acceptable to the membership.
    Especially since half the membership already seems to have one kind of ad block or another on their browser. But even if I didn't, I hardly even noticed the Google ads after a while. Which may not be encouraging for Google, frankly, but if we still broke even, what's the problem?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cougar View Post
    And what difference has the "traumatic" name change actually made? I just don't see much difference.
    This thread is the only time I have used the new name in conversation. Among my friends, I still refer to it by some variation on its old name. I will freely admit that we didn't have the practical effect I feared--a horde of New Age types drawn by the "heavy" nature of the name--but I still hate it. I understand why it was chosen, but it's unattractive and clunky.
    _____________________________________________
    Gillian

    "Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

    "You can't erase icing."

    "I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

  19. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cougar View Post
    Jeez Louise, R.A.F., did you misread the OP and think that there's now a subscription fee for this forum? If you don't want to donate or you can't spare the cash, then don't donate. End of story.
    That might be a viable argument, if I was the only one "complaining", but as is evidenced by the numerous "upset" posters posting to this thread, I am not.


    I see no basis for anyone to become so "upset" about this.
    The only thing you will accomplish by trying to tell people who are "upset", that they shouldn't be upset, it to make them more upset.

    End of story?....heck, it's just beginning.
    Last edited by R.A.F.; 2012-Dec-31 at 06:16 PM. Reason: slightly changed phrasing last sentence
    The facts, gentlemen, and nothing but the facts, for careful eyes are narrowly watching. Isaac Asimov

  20. #50
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    the biggest gripe so far, aside from a little self confessed resentment left over from the merger, seems to be that BAUT T shirts arnt available.
    Dont over state you case RAF

  21. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by mutleyeng View Post
    the biggest gripe so far, aside from a little self confessed resentment left over from the merger, seems to be that BAUT T shirts arnt available.
    Not at all. ...and I'm not willing (at least until some cosmo management joins this discussiion) to air all of my "gripes"...particularly after seeing some posters "take offense", at the simple expression of an opinion.


    Dont over state you case RAF
    I don't have a "case", only opinions.
    The facts, gentlemen, and nothing but the facts, for careful eyes are narrowly watching. Isaac Asimov

  22. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by mutleyeng View Post
    the biggest gripe so far, aside from a little self confessed resentment left over from the merger, seems to be that BAUT T shirts arnt available.
    Dont over state you case RAF
    No, that's not true at all. The effects are worsened by remaining resentment from the merger, but this post just demonstrates what I've been afraid of all along. There are some people who aren't bothering to understand why some of us remain upset. There are some people who aren't bothering to listen when long-term members voice their discontent. I have myself listed at least half a dozen gripes that I consider more serious than the lack of BAUT t-shirts, which was merely intended to demonstrate the ways we would have kicked in before the merger if asked--or just given the opportunity. Belittling those complaints doesn't make them go away.
    _____________________________________________
    Gillian

    "Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

    "You can't erase icing."

    "I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

  23. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.A.F. View Post
    Not at all. ...and I'm not willing (at least until some cosmo management joins this discussiion) to air all of my "gripes"...particularly after seeing some posters "take offense", at the simple expression of an opinion.

    .
    do let me know if that was referring to me - I have lots of opinions I can share if that's the case

  24. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gillianren View Post
    No, that's not true at all. The effects are worsened by remaining resentment from the merger, but this post just demonstrates what I've been afraid of all along. There are some people who aren't bothering to understand why some of us remain upset. There are some people who aren't bothering to listen when long-term members voice their discontent. I have myself listed at least half a dozen gripes that I consider more serious than the lack of BAUT t-shirts, which was merely intended to demonstrate the ways we would have kicked in before the merger if asked--or just given the opportunity. Belittling those complaints doesn't make them go away.
    I apologise if you feel I belittled your complaints - I do have trouble separating what you have said from problems you had at the time of the merger, and problems that you have had since that time.
    I know you think you should have a voice as a longstanding memeber - maybe you should. What idea do you have that could facilitate that?

  25. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by mutleyeng View Post
    do let me know if that was referring to me - I have lots of opinions I can share if that's the case
    No thanks...and Gillianren's post says it better than I can, and if after reading it, you still think there is no reason to be "upset", then we have nothing further to discuss.
    The facts, gentlemen, and nothing but the facts, for careful eyes are narrowly watching. Isaac Asimov

  26. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by mutleyeng View Post
    I apologise if you feel I belittled your complaints...
    So I post essentially the same opinion that Gillianren posted...she gets an apology, and I get a somewhat different response.

    Interesting.
    Last edited by R.A.F.; 2012-Dec-31 at 07:35 PM. Reason: changed 2nd sentence to be less "confrontational"
    The facts, gentlemen, and nothing but the facts, for careful eyes are narrowly watching. Isaac Asimov

  27. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by mutleyeng View Post
    I apologise if you feel I belittled your complaints - I do have trouble separating what you have said from problems you had at the time of the merger, and problems that you have had since that time.
    I know you think you should have a voice as a longstanding memeber - maybe you should. What idea do you have that could facilitate that?
    My complaints have not changed since the merger, because essentially none of the problems I had have changed. This is why there is continuing resentment to the merger. We are, many of us, feeling brushed aside. There is little communication from anyone on the CQ side, and we've had to resign ourselves long since to the idea that Phil and Fraser have nothing to do with the board these days. If anything, I have just developed more complaints, this time about, for example, the assurance that we would be kept in the loop's being a lie.

    Quote Originally Posted by R.A.F. View Post
    So I post essentially the same opinion that Gillianren posted...she gets an apology, and I get an "invitation to a fight"??

    Interesting.
    Well, I do have more tact than you do.
    _____________________________________________
    Gillian

    "Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

    "You can't erase icing."

    "I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

  28. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gillianren View Post
    Well, I do have more tact than you do.
    True enough,...


    Knew I waited too long to edit it, but later is better than never.

    Now if I could only do that before hitting the submit button.
    The facts, gentlemen, and nothing but the facts, for careful eyes are narrowly watching. Isaac Asimov

  29. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infinity Watcher View Post
    <snip>
    but back in the days of BaBB the BA was active, and I couldn't remember the other administrators off the top of my head (please don't hurt me for that other admins) )
    Back in the BABB days the BA was the only Administrator and there were no moderators. The UT forum had moderators. Both the BA and Fraser were content providers/visible participants on their individual forums, and continued to do so, at least for a while after the BABB/UT merger.
    At night the stars put on a show for free (Carole King)

    All moderation in purple - The rules

  30. #60
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    I would remind participants in this thread that they will be polite to each other or there will be consequences. You may complain as you wish about the forum, but again, it will be done politely.
    At night the stars put on a show for free (Carole King)

    All moderation in purple - The rules

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