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Thread: China is making headway with cooperation with other countries excluding US.

  1. #271
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    "Experts: NASA will continue working with Russia on space despite China plan"

    https://www.upi.com/Science_News/202...4071618254140/

    Russia and NASA will continue to cooperate in space in the near future, even as Russia moves to work with China on lunar exploration, experts said.

    Russia and China announced March 9 they will cooperate on China's planned International Scientific Lunar Station, while the United States will have no involvement in the Chinese space program under a law passed in 2011.
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  2. #272
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    Here's an article marking the 60th anniversary of Gagarin's flight and pointing out the poor state of the current program, as well as pointing out an obvious reason why they are so keen to work with China:

    Six decades after Gagarin, nostalgia—and not much else—fuels Russia in space

    Because NASA now has access to Crew Dragon, it can stop purchasing Soyuz seats for American and other international astronauts on Soyuz, which cost more than $90 million apiece. These purchases accounted for about one-fifth of Russia's annual space budget of $2.4 billion.
    And that doesn't account for the loss of potential commercial business to SpaceX, Rocket Lab, etc.

  3. #273
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    Now an article in The Times, calling for China and the USA to join forces in space - "Why the U.S. and China Should Collaborate in Space"

    The article is written by Will Marshall (CEO of Planet) and Colonel Chris Hadfield (who was Commander of the International Space Station and flew both the U.S. Space Shuttle and Russian Soyuz vehicles).

    https://time.com/5954941/u-s-china-s...rate-in-space/

    While much has been made of the tense March 18 exchange between American and Chinese diplomats in Anchorage, Alaska, one area became an unlikely candidate for cooperation: outer space. During a press conference after the meeting, Jake Sullivan, the U.S. National Security Advisor, pointed out that the Perseverance rover that recently landed on Mars “wasn’t just an American project. It had technology from multiple countries from Europe and other parts of the world.” China’s top diplomat, Yang Jiechi, seized the opportunity to say that, “China would welcome it if there is a will to carry out similar cooperation from the United States with us.”

    Planned or not, Yang’s comment gave voice to one very smart way two geopolitical rivals sharing the same planet could work together despite their growing tensions. Space exploration has long been used to foster deep cooperation, even between adversaries. During the height of the Cold War, the U.S. and U.S.S.R. jointly undertook the 1975 Apollo-Soyuz mission, which both served as a means of political rapprochement and opened the possibility of cooperation in other areas. Those links endured. After the Soviet Union collapsed, Russia was invited to partner in the construction of the International Space Station (ISS). It was a multi-layered act that went beyond simple generosity; the more work former Soviet scientists had to do designing and building the ISS, the less likely they’d be to sell their expertise to other countries.
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  4. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by selvaarchi View Post
    Now an article in The Times, calling for China and the USA to join forces in space - "Why the U.S. and China Should Collaborate in Space"

    The article is written by Will Marshall (CEO of Planet) and Colonel Chris Hadfield (who was Commander of the International Space Station and flew both the U.S. Space Shuttle and Russian Soyuz vehicles).

    https://time.com/5954941/u-s-china-s...rate-in-space/
    This is from Time (Magazine), not The Times, which could refer to any number of worldwide newspapers.

    USA-China cooperation in space? Duh. It is disappointing that China's progress has been rather slow, and I suppose this is partly due to USA forbidding space cooperation. Otherwise, with more countries and commercial companies involved in space R&D, it will become more difficult to shut them out. I guess it will still be 5-10 years before NASA finally starts working with China. Otherwise their own intransigence will lock them out of a growing worldwide space industry.

  5. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7cscb View Post
    This is from Time (Magazine), not The Times, which could refer to any number of worldwide newspapers.

    USA-China cooperation in space? Duh. It is disappointing that China's progress has been rather slow, and I suppose this is partly due to USA forbidding space cooperation. Otherwise, with more countries and commercial companies involved in space R&D, it will become more difficult to shut them out. I guess it will still be 5-10 years before NASA finally starts working with China. Otherwise their own intransigence will lock them out of a growing worldwide space industry.
    That makes little sense since the major players in commercial spaceflight are largely based in the USA.

  6. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
    That makes little sense since the major players in commercial spaceflight are largely based in the USA.
    My point is that the huge American technological dominance in space will be eroded by the growing R&D efforts of others. The USA will likely want to participate and compete in a growing international space industry, actually selling/licensing their know-how. It's normal. It has happened in most key industries.

  7. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7cscb View Post
    My point is that the huge American technological dominance in space will be eroded by the growing R&D efforts of others. The USA will likely want to participate and compete in a growing international space industry, actually selling/licensing their know-how. It's normal. It has happened in most key industries.
    Maybe, maybe not. I think we are seeing the beginning of a new technological and industrial revolution in space development. And right now the US appears to be at the front of it. Historically, space technology companies have been very reluctant to try new things when they have something that works. To a large extent, that is because it all costs so much, but if SpaceX can drive other launch providers out of business with their lower costs, others will be forced to compete or die. And as it gets cheaper to launch satellites, etc., companies and governments won’t be so reluctant to try new things in space.

    In the US, there have also been all the cost plus aerospace contracts, which don’t exactly encourage fast moving innovation and competition. I think we’re seeing that change too.

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  8. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by Van Rijn View Post
    Maybe, maybe not. I think we are seeing the beginning of a new technological and industrial revolution in space development. And right now the US appears to be at the front of it. Historically, space technology companies have been very reluctant to try new things when they have something that works. To a large extent, that is because it all costs so much, but if SpaceX can drive other launch providers out of business with their lower costs, others will be forced to compete or die. And as it gets cheaper to launch satellites, etc., companies and governments won’t be so reluctant to try new things in space.

    In the US, there have also been all the cost plus aerospace contracts, which don’t exactly encourage fast moving innovation and competition. I think we’re seeing that change too.
    I think that's an important point. 10-15 years when it was China's centrally controlled space program versus the cosy club of NASA, congress, and corporate lobbyists and China definitely seemed to be closing the gap in terms of capability. Now in the face of the new commercial companies the gap i opening again. Sure there are 'private' companies in China but given the intrusive nature of China's government entrepreneurship only goes so far.

  9. #279
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    "Analysts: China’s space programs are a security concern to the U.S. but not all are nefarious"

    https://spacenews.com/analysts-china...are-nefarious/

    The U.S. intelligence community in a report listed China’s space program as a top security concern for the United States. Some space experts and analysts criticized the report for painting China’s space program with a broad brush and failing to draw distinctions between civilian and military space pursuits.

    Todd Harrison, director of the Aerospace Security Project at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, said the report “conflates space capabilities in general with space capabilities that are potential threats.”

    The U.S. intelligence community’s annual threat assessment published April 13, for example, mentions Chinese civilian space programs such as a future space station and a network of navigation satellites as capabilities that China is pursuing that could be a threat to the United States.

    “The U.S. government needs to be clear about which Chinese space developments pose a threat and are a security concern — and there are many — and which developments merely show that China is pursing an ambitious civil space program to catch up to where the United States was 20 or 30 years ago,” Harrison told SpaceNews.

    China’s space station, Harrison believes, is a positive development. “It gives them a good reason not to trash low Earth orbit with a bunch of space junk.”

    Victoria Samson, Washington Office director at the Secure World Foundation, questioned why the intelligence community listed China’s space station as a threat even though it’s been planned for more than a decade. “I didn’t know that a space station was a sign of nefarious intent for space,” Samson tweeted April 15.

    John Klein, adjunct professor at George Washington University’s Space Policy Institute, said it’s a constant debate whether intelligence agencies overstate or exaggerate the potential threat posed by China.
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  10. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by selvaarchi View Post
    "Analysts: China’s space programs are a security concern to the U.S. but not all are nefarious"

    https://spacenews.com/analysts-china...are-nefarious/
    'But not all' is hardly reassuring. Like 'Look I only mug some of the people I meet'.

  11. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
    'But not all' is hardly reassuring. Like 'Look I only mug some of the people I meet'.
    As the post 'Launch window" posted in the tread "U.S. to cease funding for Arecibo radio telescope" shows the USA will have to compromise in some areas.
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  12. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by selvaarchi View Post
    As the post 'Launch window" posted in the tread "U.S. to cease funding for Arecibo radio telescope" shows the USA will have to compromise in some areas.
    Not sure how that addresses the 'not all are nefarious' issue.

  13. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
    Not sure how that addresses the 'not all are nefarious' issue.
    won't go there other wise trouble
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  14. #284
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    "Interview: Swiss astronaut extols China's spacewalk, wishes to be part of Tiangong space station"

    http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/202...1310058912.htm

    Convinced that outer space is a global common good, China has been collaborating extensively with European nations since the launch of its manned spaceflight programs in the 1990s.

    "Collaboration between several nations in any large-scale technical and scientific project is always good," said the Swiss astronaut. "I look forward to seeing more Sino-European collaboration in space, and I am convinced it will happen, and intensify!"

    Nicollier identifies Artificial Intelligence as a key area in next-generation space international cooperation. "Scientific activities in space are complex, and station maintenance can be very laborious and crew-time intensive," he said. "It is best to leave a lot of these tasks to smart robots, and just use the human capability where it is really needed!"
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  15. #285
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    "Can the U.S. and China Cooperate in Space?"

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...rate-in-space/

    Will collaboration or competition define international space science and exploration in the 21st century? The answer could come down to how two spaceflight superpowers, the U.S. and China, choose to engage with each other in the next few years.
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  16. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by selvaarchi View Post
    "Can the U.S. and China Cooperate in Space?"

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...rate-in-space/
    Hi Selvaarchi,

    I was disappointed at the slant, from SciAm no less. I will not be subscribing. As with so many others, the writer, Leonard David, describes China's "meteoric rise" in space. What he describes as "methodical", I describe as slow and plodding. China is "rapidly constructing" its space station. Get it? He's telling us China is a space wunderkind, which it is not. heehee.
    He does quote NASA's Bill Nelson who would like to get along in Space like when the USSR was our "mortal enemy" But now we're friends, in space anyway. So he'll look at it case by case.
    Brown University planetary scientist Jim Head believes: "If we sit and bury our heads in the sand and don’t do anything ourselves, they are still going." I do not highlight this because it is absurd but because he, and I suppose the writer too, stirs up a sense of imminent something or another because the Chinese can "pump them out like sausages", clearly referring to something unclear related to returning space samples. And in closing, Head is again quoted: "collaboration, cooperation, coordination" are the way because "If we’re all duplicating everything individually, that is just stupid."
    I recognize 'yellow peril' or 'hordes' was not used and I admit I only picked the stuff i found particularly hilarious and Leonard David touched on other stuff but mostly obvious quotes of equal quality. It would be stupid to duplicate the derision.
    Finally, this article reminds me of the same myopic view that has tried to warn me for decades. Starting in the sixties with smelters, then cars, then transistors, then memory chips, then CPUs and too many other 'strategic' industries that surely spelled the demise of 'The West'. I think the lesson is that the dynamics of a growing world commercial space industry will overshadow national space agency agendas.

    cheers,

  17. #287
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    This week's Space Review covers "36th Space Symposium at The Broadmoor in Colorado Springs". Missing in this are four major space countries (if you look at who took part in the panel discussion) - China, Russia, India and Japan. Very much a West vs the rest.

    https://www.thespacereview.com/article/4235/1

    Indeed, the traditional heads-of-agencies panel at Space Symposium last Wednesday, which in recent years had swelled to an almost unmanageable size, was slimmed down at this year’s event. Nelson shared the stage with the leaders of six other national space agencies—Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Ukraine, and the United Kingdom—and the European Space Agency for a panel discussion.

    The hour-long discussion, though, was enough to make clear Nelson’s views on international cooperation. It’s one where the traditional International Space Station partners continue to work together there while looking ahead to the Moon. It’s also one that plays down any rift with Russia while playing up a perceived space race with China.
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  18. #288
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    "NASA has no plans to exchange lunar samples with China"

    https://spacenews.com/nasa-has-no-pl...es-with-china/

    NASA currently has no plans to trade any of its Apollo-era lunar samples with those returned by China’s Chang’e-5 mission, although then agency’s chief scientist held out hope for such an exchange in the future.

    Speaking at the annual meeting of the Lunar Exploration Analysis Group Aug. 31, Jim Green said that the restrictions in U.S. law on bilateral cooperation between NASA and Chinese organizations ruled out, for the time being, any exchange of lunar samples between the two nations.

    “Currently, there’s no plans to create a bilateral arrangement with China on the exchange of samples,” he said, citing the Wolf Amendment, the decade-old provision in annual appropriations bills restricting such cooperation.
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