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Thread: China is making headway with cooperation with other countries excluding US.

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by selvaarchi View Post
    If you read the article I posted on the Chinese Space Station thread #48 France is helping with Tiangong-2 space station module.
    I did read the article, and it didn't mention France, or any other country.
    Even your comments said "hint" of international cooperation. That doesn't mean hardware exchange.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by selvaarchi View Post
    Now India joins the list of countries looking at joint cooperation in space with China.
    Of all the talk about Chinese cooperation, I find this one the most likely to expand beyond mere political posturing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NEOWatcher View Post
    I did read the article, and it didn't mention France, or any other country.
    Even your comments said "hint" of international cooperation. That doesn't mean hardware exchange.
    Please reread the article in post #48. It has the following

    France has several bilateral missions planned with the China National Space Administration. One is called Cardiospace, which will be launched on China’s Tiangong-2 space station module in 2016 and used to study Chinese taikonauts’ circulation. Two Cardiospace units were delivered to the Astronaut Center of China in March and June to be integrated into the 20,000-kilogram Tiangong-2.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by selvaarchi View Post
    Please reread the article in post #48. It has the following
    Sorry, your link brought me to post #41. (to link the actual post, use the link that clicking on the post number provides)

    I'm not sure how experimental packages fit in what I have been considering hardware exchange. But; Yes, it is something noteworthy.

  5. #65
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    Nigeria joins a string of countries using Chinese launch facilities.

    http://spacenews.com/article/launch-...-2018-minister

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by selvaarchi View Post
    Nigeria joins a string of countries using Chinese launch facilities.
    Not that I doubt it, but that article doesn't say anything about who will launch the satellite.

    They already have a partnership with China (and Russia, Ukraine, and others) who has helped build and launch their satellites.
    The news here is that this satellite is NOT going to be built by China.

    In fact, they are hoping to start up their own launch facilities and rockets with the Ukraine's help.

    Welcome to the world of international cooperation where borders are becoming less apparent.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by NEOWatcher View Post
    Not that I doubt it, but that article doesn't say anything about who will launch the satellite.

    They already have a partnership with China (and Russia, Ukraine, and others) who has helped build and launch their satellites.
    The news here is that this satellite is NOT going to be built by China.

    In fact, they are hoping to start up their own launch facilities and rockets with the Ukraine's help.

    Welcome to the world of international cooperation where borders are becoming less apparent.
    You are right. I miss read the article.
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  8. #68
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    Looks like Canada is joining the US to keep the Chinese and Russians out!!!

    http://www.go-taikonauts.com/en/chin...-from-iac-2014

    As reported by numerous sources, high ranking officials from the Russian Space Agency Roscosmos and from the Chinese National Space Administration were denied visas to Canada and were thus unable to attend the International Astronautical Congress, IAC, currently being held in Toronto, Canada.

  9. #69
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    I wouldn't jump the gun. We have no clue why the visas were denied.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NEOWatcher View Post
    I wouldn't jump the gun. We have no clue why the visas were denied.
    The Russians seem to have a view of why the visas were denied.

    http://www.spacenews.com/article/civ...ce-exploration

    anada’s refusal to allow Russian delegates to attend a prestigious international astronautical symposium has angered Moscow, which said the decision flies in the face of international space co-operation and amounts to politicizing space exploration over the conflict in Ukraine.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by selvaarchi View Post
    The Russians seem to have a view of why the visas were denied.
    Yep, just "a view". Probably a good one, but still not definite.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by NEOWatcher View Post
    Yep, just "a view". Probably a good one, but still not definite.
    Bit more definite with this report.

    http://www.clivesimpson.co.uk/space-...refused-visas/

    An official from Roscomos confirmed via the Interfax news agency on Tuesday that only two of its delegation had obtained visas and these were both translators who had been the last to apply.

    “Failure to obtain visas for Russians is clearly politically motivated,” the official said.

    A spokesperson for Canada’s Citizenship and Immigration department admitted some applications had been denied.

  13. #73
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    Does not look likely the US will change their stand on cooperation with China in the near future.

    http://www.spacepolicyonline.com/new...ost-iss-future

    The question of cooperating with China arose as it often does in these settings. Gerstenmaier pointed out that under current law NASA cannot discuss human space cooperation with China, but expressed hope that the situation may change in the future. Gold agreed that if mutual benefit can be shown, the China door may open, but for now China is the “third rail” of export control politics. Although changes are being made to the International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR), they do not apply to China, he pointed out.

  14. #74
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    Let me just say that the political issues with China are far deeper than space exploration. Space exploration is just a blip in the issue.
    This is one reason that I prefer not to get into this subject. Popping a story into this thread almost every day is not going to change the issue.
    Yes; the political issues affect the spaceflight, but spaceflight cooperation is not the issue.

  15. #75
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    The Russians are in talks with the Chinese about access to the Chinese space station. They are also considering inviting the Chinese to the Russian segment of the ISS.

    The full article is in Russian.

    http://www.go-taikonauts.com/en/

    "As for possible projects in the area of manned programme, China has an interest, and they express that interest us. This is confirmed by the talks that we had today," said Ostapenko to RIA Novosti journalists. He added: "I do not rule out the option that within the expanding cooperation with China, we might consider the option to launch our astronauts to the Chinese Space Station, and in the future to see the Chinese taikonauts in our segment of the ISS."
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  16. #76
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    Keep in mind that the Chinese astronauts call themselves astronauts. The word "taikonaut" is a Western aberration.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    Keep in mind that the Chinese astronauts call themselves astronauts. The word "taikonaut" is a Western aberration.
    I think it's more complicated than that. I don't know what they call themselves, but it surely can't be "astronauts." I suspect it's similar to the Japanese term, which is 宇宙飛行士, or "space pilots." OK, now I looked it up. In mainland China they seem to use 宇航人, which means "space traveler." So they use neither "astronaut" or "cosmonaut" or "taikonaut." It seems that the "taiko" is Hong Kong usage, from 太空, which means something like "the great sky."
    As above, so below

  18. #78
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    And to add something, it's interesting that for Russian astronauts we use the local term cosmonaut, but for Germans we don't use the term Raumfahrer. Why?
    As above, so below

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    I think it's more complicated than that. I don't know what they call themselves, but it surely can't be "astronauts." I suspect it's similar to the Japanese term, which is 宇宙飛行士, or "space pilots." OK, now I looked it up. In mainland China they seem to use 宇航人, which means "space traveler." So they use neither "astronaut" or "cosmonaut" or "taikonaut." It seems that the "taiko" is Hong Kong usage, from 太空, which means something like "the great sky."
    Thanks. I guess I should research first and blab later.
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  20. #80
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    Some surprising news on US-China cooperation. Like to see more of that happening. It is a step in the right direction.

    http://www.spacenews.com/article/mil...nings-to-china

    China recently asked that the data be sent directly to its satellite operators in the name of expediency and Hyten said the Air Force would comply the next time it spots a potential collision involving Chinese space hardware.

    “It takes a long time to get through that process. Sometimes too long,” Hyten said. “The Chinese just a little while ago said, ‘We’d very much like that data direct.’”

    Hyten acknowledged that providing the data itself is not a fundamental change, but said the new procedure would avoid bureaucratic holdups and enable quicker action by Chinese operators, such as maneuvering their satellites out of harm’s way.

    “To me it’s a big deal. It’s a big deal because they asked,” he said. “We want to space to be a safe place.”

    During a July meeting between U.S. and Chinese officials in Beijing, the two sides committed to continuing discussions on a way for China to access more detailed technical collision avoidance information from U.S. Strategic Command, according to a July release on the U.S. State Department. That information would come through Strategic Command’s Spacetrack website, which provides basic satellite catalog information, including positional data and background information.

  21. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by selvaarchi View Post
    Some surprising news on US-China cooperation. Like to see more of that happening. It is a step in the right direction.
    It's in the best interest of the US to help prevent collisions which increase orbital debris. I'm not sure if this is a step in the right direction as much as it is just preservation of the space environment.

  22. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by NEOWatcher View Post
    It's in the best interest of the US to help prevent collisions which increase orbital debris. I'm not sure if this is a step in the right direction as much as it is just preservation of the space environment.
    With that I will agree. It is also my humble opinion that it is also in the best interest of the US to cooperate with China in space exploration. The next phase in manned space exploration is in BEO. It is not cheap. Teaming up with other countries will not only spread the financial burden but also bring on the table a bigger spread of technology solutions and skills. Even in LEO the ISS is quickly coming up to its "past use date". Will it not be better if the US and China teamed with other countries to build the next space station now (before China starts building its own)?

  23. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by selvaarchi View Post
    It is also my humble opinion that it is also in the best interest of the US to cooperate with China in space exploration.
    Why China? There are lots of countries out there to cooperate with, and the US has been successfully using them.
    There are political issues here that are much larger than putting another player in the mix.

  24. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by NEOWatcher View Post
    Why China? There are lots of countries out there to cooperate with, and the US has been successfully using them.
    There are political issues here that are much larger than putting another player in the mix.
    China is fast catching up with the US and Russia in space capabilities. They are the fastest growing economy in the world right now and putting money in space exploration. Their future space plans are similar to what the US and Russia are aiming for (except the moon where the US has dropped out).

    Most important, we are in a point time when the majority of the plans are still on paper. If we cooperate now we would be able to push the worlds space capabilities to a higher level much quicker. An example is the ISS. At most it will last another 10 years. Planning for a new one should start now. China is already well on the way to develop their own. If we cooperate now, that space station could be the next ISS.

  25. #85
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    Someday, maybe. But, they are still in their infancy. Let them demonstrate first. Then, we can start addressing the political issues.

    Look at the history of US and Russian/Soviet efforts. The politics prevented anything but a handshake in space in the 70's. Cooperation in Mir, and agreements to cooperate with ISS did not happen until a MAJOR political shift.

    Like I said before, China is only one more player. No matter how fast China is forging ahead, they are not doing anything we haven't, and with their ambition plans, they probably wouldn't be able to shift gears to get into anything more than token cooperation.

    The US is leaving LEO. Nobody else is ready to do that yet.

  26. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by NEOWatcher View Post
    Someday, maybe. But, they are still in their infancy. Let them demonstrate first. Then, we can start addressing the political issues.
    I will not classify China as being in their infancy. To me they are well ahead of Europe, Japan and India. Now is the time to be talking to them about the Chinese space station. It is still under development. There is time to talk to them to modify their plans to incorporate the experiences that the US and its partners have in running the ISS the last 14 years. It would also be an opportunity to invite the other major player, India, into the international group. By the time the new space station is ready, India should have its own capability for manned space flight.

    Like I said before, China is only one more player. No matter how fast China is forging ahead, they are not doing anything we haven't, and with their ambition plans, they probably wouldn't be able to shift gears to get into anything more than token cooperation.
    I do not remember the US doing anything like that China is doing with their service module at the Earth-Moon second Lagrange Point (L2). The US might have done lots on the moon but most of it is from over 40 years ago.

    Europe and Japan play a supportive role to the US in manned space exploration. The other major player is Russia and right now, I would say they are closer to China than to the west.

    The US is leaving LEO. Nobody else is ready to do that yet.
    My bet is still on China getting manned flight to BEO before the US in the early 2020s. At that time it would also be a good time to discuss an international drive to set up one or more moon bases.
    Last edited by selvaarchi; 2014-Dec-08 at 08:00 AM.

  27. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by selvaarchi View Post
    I will not classify China as being in their infancy. To me they are well ahead of Europe, Japan and India.
    It depends on the aspects. While Europe and Japan do not have a manned craft, they have mature infrastructures, launch vehicles, a robust satellite industry, and both have their own modules on ISS.

    Quote Originally Posted by selvaarchi View Post
    Now is the time to be talking to them about the Chinese space station. It is still under development. There is time to talk to them to modify their plans to incorporate the experiences that the US and its partners have in running the ISS the last 14 years. It would also be an opportunity to invite the other major player, India, into the international group. By the time the new space station is ready, India should have its own capability for manned space flight.
    But they aren't. The political issues are bigger. Perhaps you should accept it.

    Quote Originally Posted by selvaarchi View Post
    I do not remember the US doing anything like that China is doing with their service module at the Earth-Moon second Lagrange Point (L2).
    That's cherrypicking. How many things has the US done that China hasn't? Plenty.

    Quote Originally Posted by selvaarchi View Post
    The US might have done lots on the moon but most of it is from over 40 years ago.
    Why does the time matter? We have the technology. We have different interests in mind (particularly deep space). We learned most of what we needed there. China is at the flag and footprints stage as we were 50 years ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by selvaarchi View Post
    Europe and Japan play a supportive role to the US in manned space exploration. The other major player is Russia and right now, I would say they are closer to China than to the west.
    That's your opinion. While I can respect it, I don't share it.

    Quote Originally Posted by selvaarchi View Post
    My bet is still on China getting manned flight to BEO before the US in the early 2020s. At that time it would also be a good time to discuss an international drive to set up one or more moon bases.
    Given enough money, perhaps. But it will be difficult to add such a task to an already loaded schedule, and to learn what they need to learn for BEO manned travel.

  28. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by NEOWatcher View Post
    It depends on the aspects. While Europe and Japan do not have a manned craft, they have mature infrastructures, launch vehicles, a robust satellite industry, and both have their own modules on ISS.
    They all have mature infrastructures, launch vehicles and a robust satellite industry. While China does not have their own module on ISS they do have ‎Tiangong-1. China's published future plans (‎Tiangong-2, space station and sample return to the moon) puts them ahead of Europe and Japan in my eyes.

    ‎But they aren't. The political issues are bigger. Perhaps you should accept it.
    Political issues change. The US - Russian cooperation is a case in point. Ultimately it might be the $$$ that might change the US mindset. We are at a point in time, where China is about to embark on their own space station and the US led ISS is on its last legs, giving us a window to build a truly International Space Station. The present one is controlled by one country.

    That's cherrypicking. How many things has the US done that China hasn't? Plenty.
    You do not categorize the US then in your statement "only one more player". To me the US, Russia and China is way ahead all the other countries.

    Why does the time matter? We have the technology. We have different interests in mind (particularly deep space). We learned most of what we needed there. China is at the flag and footprints stage as we were 50 years ago.
    Do you have the technology? The US will have to relearn a lot of the things they did 40 years ago, but I would agree overall the US is still streets ahead of China in space technology.

    That's your opinion. While I can respect it, I don't share it.
    And I respect yours

    Given enough money, perhaps. But it will be difficult to add such a task to an already loaded schedule, and to learn what they need to learn for BEO manned travel.
    China's loaded schedule only takes it to 2022. There are no firm published plans after that. As for money, I would say it applies more to the US than to China.

  29. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by selvaarchi View Post
    Political issues change.
    And until they do, this is all a moot point.

    Quote Originally Posted by selvaarchi View Post
    The US - Russian cooperation is a case in point. Ultimately it might be the $$$ that might change the US mindset.
    No, it won't. As I keep saying, the political issues are much bigger than just wanting a new partner in space travel.
    It wasn't money that helped US-Russian cooperation.


    Quote Originally Posted by selvaarchi View Post
    We are at a point in time, where China is about to embark on their own space station and the US led ISS is on its last legs, giving us a window to build a truly International Space Station. The present one is controlled by one country.
    So; you don't think China will control theirs even with partners.
    ISS operations and modules look rather international to me.



    Quote Originally Posted by selvaarchi View Post
    You do not categorize the US then in your statement "only one more player". To me the US, Russia and China is way ahead all the other countries.
    So they are big players... so what?
    Besides, You missed the point of my comment. You were trying to make your point by only pointing out one project.



    Quote Originally Posted by selvaarchi View Post
    Do you have the technology? The US will have to relearn a lot of the things they did 40 years ago, but I would agree overall the US is still streets ahead of China in space technology.
    Yep; that's part of my point.



    Quote Originally Posted by selvaarchi View Post
    China's loaded schedule only takes it to 2022. There are no firm published plans after that. As for money, I would say it applies more to the US than to China.
    Yep; and I don't want to go into that, because the economics that China vs US are using is too politically charged.

  30. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by NEOWatcher View Post
    So; you don't think China will control theirs even with partners.
    ISS operations and modules look rather international to me.
    As it stands now it is a Chinese project. But, what I would like to see is, it become is a truly international station where no one country has a veto over the others.

    I do not see the ISS as an International space station, where 2 of the top 6 spare faring nations are not included in it. It is a multinational project with the US having a major say.

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