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Thread: China Space Station

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by selvaarchi View Post
    We will have to wait for news from China to confirm one way or another.
    Yep; and that's the only point I have been trying to get across.

    But; with China's record of not being so open, we may never know (at least from reliable sources).

  2. #32
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    Slides from a presentation on Chinese Space Station given at the International Planetary Congress being held in China. One bit of information surprised me. I always assumed the space station will be about 70 tons but according to the presentation this is for only the core module (Tiangong 3). The weight with the other two modules will be 160 to 180 tons. It can also be expended further.

    http://www.oosa.unvienna.org/pdf/pre...14/tech-24.pdf

    Designed Life: >10 years
     Crew member: 3~6
     Modules: 3 (basic shape)
     Robotic arms: 2
     Capsule extension is possible
     Mission duration: 6 months
     Weight≈70 tons (basic shape)
    160~180 tons max
     Exposure platforms available
     1 manned spaceship docked permanently
     Start to build in 2018, basic shape
    completed around 2022

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by selvaarchi View Post
    One bit of information surprised me. I always assumed the space station will be about 70 tons but according to the presentation this is for only the core module (Tiangong 3). The weight with the other two modules will be 160 to 180 tons. It can also be expended further.
    I guess I don't know what you expected. The "basic" shape was always the 3 modules and always around the 2022 time frame.
    In fact you said it back on post 3
    The statement "Tiangong-3's design will form the basis of a full-size, multi-module space station' says it all.
    Space stations are designed for expansion (if you ignore the first generation stations). I never thought that this station would be an exception to that. Especially with their hope of expanding international cooperation with it.

    I'm just wondering how they get to that max figure. I'm thinking energy supplies, life support, atmospheric boost and other things like that which they designed into it. So; it might just be max that the current design of support equipment can provide.

    Nice document though. It's got a good visual summary of information without all that hype that's usually in a news article. To bad we don't have the dialog that went with the slides.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by NEOWatcher View Post
    What delay?

    Your comment isn't even remotely related to what they are talking about in the article. They didn't mention any delay, and worse, you add even more of your own completely unsupported comments about a delay and what caused it.

    Even if there is a delay, It can also be due to the normal delays you see in construction and spaceflight. I already provided evidence that the launch center was most likely not affected.
    It is official, it is now completed but no information on why the delay.

    http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Ch...ility_999.html

    China has finished building of its fourth and most advanced space launch center, a senior space official said.

    Yang Liwei, deputy director of the China Manned Space Agency, said in Beijing on Wednesday that infrastructure construction on the Wenchang Satellite Launch Center in the southern island province of Hainan has been completed and that the station will soon become operational.

    "The center is basically ready for spacecraft launches," he said.

  5. #35
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    repeat of post #34
    Last edited by selvaarchi; 2014-Oct-15 at 12:24 PM. Reason: repeat of previous post

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by NEOWatcher View Post
    I guess I don't know what you expected. The "basic" shape was always the 3 modules and always around the 2022 time frame.
    In fact you said it back on post 3
    It was the weight that surprised me as I was under the impression all three will come to about 70 tons.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by selvaarchi View Post
    ... but no information on why the delay.
    Because it's not important. The entire program has been having delays.

    But; that's a better discussion for the launch vehicle thread.

    Back to the space station...
    What were you envisioning about the space station before you saw this latest PDF?

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by NEOWatcher View Post
    Because it's not important. The entire program has been having delays.

    But; that's a better discussion for the launch vehicle thread.

    Back to the space station...
    What were you envisioning about the space station before you saw this latest PDF?
    Again keeping to weight, if the first module comes to 70 tons and the next two are supposed to be bigger then the 1st one, I would have expected the weight to be at least over 210 tons.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by selvaarchi View Post
    Again keeping to weight, if the first module comes to 70 tons and the next two are supposed to be bigger then the 1st one, I would have expected the weight to be at least over 210 tons.
    Then you really haven't been paying attention.

    Even you said in post one that the combined module will be 60 tons.
    And I responded with the detail that said what constitutes the 60 tons.
    Lessons learned from the space laboratory stage will lead to a space station phase, with this complex consisting of the Core Cabin Module (CCM), the Laboratory Cabin Module 1 (LCM-1), a Cabin Laboratory Module II (LCM-2), along with a Shenzhou-manned vessel and a Shenzhou cargo craft. [...] to be assembled in the 2020-2022 time period, this large orbital station will weigh about 60 tons...

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by selvaarchi View Post
    Again keeping to weight, if the first module comes to 70 tons...
    Also; how did you think they would have been able to lift a 70 ton module, especially by 2017?

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by NEOWatcher View Post
    Then you really haven't been paying attention.

    Even you said in post one that the combined module will be 60 tons.
    And I responded with the detail that said what constitutes the 60 tons.
    Sorry I misread the slide I posted on #32. It does say 70 tons basic shape (3 modules) and max 160~180 tons. They do not explain what the max was for.
    They do say Capsule extension is possible and give a hint in the slides on International Cooperation -

    cooperation in platform technology
    -individual facility or assemblies
    -sub-systems or modules

    Reading the slides I come to a different conclusion to Dr Morris Jones in his article where he states "Tiangong 2 is expected to use the same sort of short, stubby module as Tiangong 1."

    Why receive a cargo vessel that is bigger then Tiangong 2. More logical to have Tiangong 2 more like Tiangong 3 and do all the tests on new technology like refueling and extended stay. Tiangong 2 then needs to be heavier and could be launched by Long March 7 rocket (reason for the delay to 2016?).

  12. #42
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    China is pushing its quest to have international involvement in its Space Station.

    http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/ch..._133642300.htm

    Astronauts from around the world have expressed interest in China's future space lab and station, hoping to cooperate with their Chinese counterparts on the Tiangong space station.

    Meeting in Beijing for the 27th annual meeting of the non-governmental Association of Space Explorers (ASE), astronauts from Russia, the United States and other countries visited Beijing Space Flight City, one of China's major space science and technology facilities.

    Dumitru Prunariu, president of ASE and Romania's first astronaut, said after visiting models of China's Tiangong-1 space lab and Shenzhou-10 spaceship that astronauts are interested due to their professional curiosity about Chinese space facilities.

    "Now China will build its own space station in 2022. We heard with great interest that China is inviting the international community to be part of experiments on board the new space station," said Prunariu.

    "We are glad that China [...] showed us so many things here and is so open to international cooperation," Prunariu said.

    Prunariu added that further cooperation on manned space programs requires more support at the state level as well as agreements with China in economic and scientific cooperation.
    Also on the same topic from Leonard David

    http://www.leonarddavid.com/space-tr...irlock-invite/
    Last edited by selvaarchi; 2014-Sep-15 at 10:47 AM.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by selvaarchi View Post
    Why receive a cargo vessel that is bigger then Tiangong 2. More logical to have Tiangong 2 more like Tiangong 3 and do all the tests on new technology like refueling and extended stay. Tiangong 2 then needs to be heavier and could be launched by Long March 7 rocket (reason for the delay to 2016?).
    But (supposedly) a bigger T2 can't be launched by a LM7. You even said that.

    It's possible that this is more of a test of the cargo vessel. In that case, you don't need a big module.

    The test of the big module would be the first component of T3. Put it through its testing and, if successful, it doesn't go to waste because it's used for the station.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by selvaarchi View Post
    China is pushing its quest to have international involvement in its Space Station.
    They've been doing that all along. I think we already did enough debating on how much impact this meeting will have.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by NEOWatcher View Post
    But (supposedly) a bigger T2 can't be launched by a LM7. You even said that.

    It's possible that this is more of a test of the cargo vessel. In that case, you don't need a big module.

    The test of the big module would be the first component of T3. Put it through its testing and, if successful, it doesn't go to waste because it's used for the station.
    I was then under the impression the cargo vessel will be the same size as T2 but if it is going to be bigger where will they put all the cargo? Better to have T2 as a minimum as big as the cargo ship and preferably bigger.

  16. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by selvaarchi View Post
    I was then under the impression the cargo vessel will be the same size as T2 but if it is going to be bigger where will they put all the cargo?
    Let me guess.... How about they leave the cargo on the cargo vessel?

    Quote Originally Posted by selvaarchi View Post
    Better to have T2 as a minimum as big as the cargo ship and preferably bigger.
    Why? If the station component is sufficient to what they are doing, size doesn't matter.


    Wh

  17. #47
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    Likely the same procedures as ISS.

    Padded packing materials, fluid tanks, refrigerators and racks will take up a lot of the cargo ships volume. The packing is disposable. The rest are fixed.

    Once the packaged cargo etc. is offloaded accumulated station trash (packing from previous shipments, dead equipment etc.) will likely be loaded into the cargo carrier and disposed of by re-entry destruction as ISS does with Cygnus, HTV and ATV.

    Experiments or failed parts needing analysis that need to return intact come back on Shenzhou.

    Repeat.
    Last edited by docmordrid; 2014-Sep-18 at 10:11 PM.

  18. #48
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    Surprise, surprise, France is already working with China on Tiangong-2 space station module. With Tiangong-2 said to be 20,000kg, my view now is the reason for the delay to 2016 is to use the new Long March 5 to launch it.

    http://spacenews.com/article/civil-s...ch-cooperation

    France has several bilateral missions planned with the China National Space Administration. One is called Cardiospace, which will be launched on China’s Tiangong-2 space station module in 2016 and used to study Chinese taikonauts’ circulation. Two Cardiospace units were delivered to the Astronaut Center of China in March and June to be integrated into the 20,000-kilogram Tiangong-2.
    Last edited by selvaarchi; 2014-Sep-20 at 03:03 AM.

  19. #49
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    China's push to have international cooperation in emphasized in this article from this weeks Space Review. They are even looking at other countries building additional modules to attach to their space station.

    http://www.thespacereview.com/article/2615/1

    However, in her presentation and accompanying paper, Zhou suggested China would be open to far more significant cooperation with other nations as it develops its space station. That three-person station, as currently envisioned, would consist of three modules: a core module named “Tianhe” and two experiment modules, “Xuntian” and “Tianwen.” The three modules would join together at a central node, giving the station an appearance not unlike the Soviet/Russian Mir station at an early phase of its life.

    Zhou suggested that China would be open to having other nations contribute modules to the station. “China’s space station will still have three docking locations for other modules,” she said, referring to three unoccupied docking ports on that central node. (One of those three, in illustrations of the station, is occupied by a visiting Shenzhou spacecraft; presumably at least one additional module would need to include a Shenzhou docking port.)

    Those modules, she said, could either be developed by other nations independently, or jointly with China. “US, Russia, ESA, and Japan may all have the ability to develop experiment modules and collaborate with China,” she said.

  20. #50
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    Picture of Tiangong 2 under active development. The following link is Tiangong-1. To me Tiangong 2 looks a bit longer but the resident experts will be able to give us a better insight.

    https://www.facebook.com/ChinaSpace/...type=1&theater

    https://www.facebook.com/ChinaSpace/...type=1&theater

  21. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by selvaarchi View Post
    Picture of Tiangong 2 under active development. The following link is Tiangong-1. To me Tiangong 2 looks a bit longer but the resident experts will be able to give us a better insight.
    We haven't had much information on T2, but it does make sense that it would be larger than T1. What we did know was that there would be more docking hatches.

    Unfortunately, they keep this stuff secret. But; if I try to match up the hardware, I get something like this:
    T1 (~8500kg) launched on a LM 2F (~8500kg LEO)
    By expanding the idea that they are preparing to have LM 7 (~13500kg LEO) launch the T2. That would infer that the T2 would also be in the same weight range and be bigger than T1 but smaller than a T3 module.
    Your link a couple of posts back says that T2 will be 20000kg. They would need LM 5 (25000kg LEO) to launch that. If that's the case, then why not go the full 25000kg?
    Reason: T2 also has an unmanned Shenzhou (~7800kg) as part of the station. That brings the two pieces to about 20000kg.

    The only question left is what country they will honor by music when it launches.

  22. #52
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    There was news recently that T1 might dock with T2 - it was included as part of the news that T1 has completed 3 years in space. Unfortunately I can't find the post
    I am because we are
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  23. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by selvaarchi View Post
    There was news recently that T1 might dock with T2 - it was included as part of the news that T1 has completed 3 years in space. Unfortunately I can't find the post
    I wish you would, because a few years ago, they did say they were going to de-orbit T1 before launching T2.
    Besides, T2 seems to have only 2 docking ports. They wouldn't be able to connect it without a new docking module.

    It's possible that the discussion of the Tianzhou cargo module could have confused things. It was developed from the T1 station.

  24. #54
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    It is from the caption with the picture of Tiangong 1 I posted above - " Tiangong-1 has been in orbit for over 3 years. One day it may fly with Tiangong-2 together in space."
    I am because we are
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  25. #55
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    I'm not going to hang my hat on a caption to a publicity photo.

  26. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by selvaarchi View Post
    It is from the caption with the picture of Tiangong 1 I posted above - " Tiangong-1 has been in orbit for over 3 years. One day it may fly with Tiangong-2 together in space."
    Caption writers are like headline writers: They are generally not reporters, and like to "punch up" articles for excitement.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  27. #57
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    Thinking about it, it probably means that both are in orbit but not joined together
    I am because we are
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  28. #58
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    Picture of the cargo spacecraft displayed at Zhuhai airshowrgo spacecraft displayed at Zhuhai airshow

    https://www.facebook.com/ChinaSpace/...type=1&theater

  29. #59
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    A model of it.

  30. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by NEOWatcher View Post
    A model of it.
    A picture of the model then

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