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Thread: Congratulations

  1. #1
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    Congratulations

    Congratulation guys, there is only one open thread in the "Against the main stream" forum. Once it is closed, I suggest that you close the forum itself. There is no need for such a forum except to make diversion anyway. Those outsiders are a hassle and they make us loose our precious time. Put that sign on the front page instead:

    CLOSED TO OUTSIDERS

  2. #2
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    Even a cursory review of the ATM forum shows that "outsiders" are welcome to start threads there. In fact, many/most who do post there are new members, some of whom go on to become established members...or "insiders." We do, however, insist that anyone who posts there do so according to our rules.

    As to your suggestion to close the forum, it comes up from time to time. Even a few moderators wouldn't miss it if it was closed. It can be a real pain to moderate, due largely to the aforementioned people not following the rules. However, the outcome of those previous discussions was to keep it. If you wish to make a persuasive case to close it, you'll have to offer more than a false premise.

    Edit to add: I moved this thread from the ATM forum. Complaints and suggestions are not appropriate there.
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  3. #3
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    I have found posting threads there useful, in the past.

  4. #4
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    Hi Frog,

    Do you remember any of those? Were they really ATM threads or just unclear mainstream ones?

  5. #5
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    There is a sign on the front. It's called "Advice for ATM Idea Advocates - Read before posting in ATM". In fact, the forum rules link directly to it. Not reading them, despite it being a requirement before posting in the ATM forum, is your problem, not ours.
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  6. #6
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    Hi Slang,

    I read the rules carefully, but it nevertheless stroke me that only one thread was actually left to discussion. It is certainly not a welcome to those who know that their ideas are already uncertain, thus to anybody that has a new idea, which is always uncertain by definition. Anyway, I know that the question of change is not a rational one, what will be coming after is unpredictable, so mainstream people cannot deal with it. What outsiders do here is only try their luck, because change is only due to hazard. Maybe if mainstream people could consider change this way, it would help it to happen more often. Who knows! For instance if the threads were allowed to be opened more than 30 days, or if the questions could be asked both ways.

  7. #7
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    What will be coming after we change our forum rules to your liking is not unpredictable at all, since the rules were that way in and before 2007. There is nothing hidden or sinister about it, and the posts about it are still available. Stickied, not hidden away in the big pile.
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    "Dumb all over, a little ugly on the side." -- Frank Zappa
    "Your right to hold an opinion is not being contested. Your expectation that it be taken seriously is." -- Jason Thompson
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inchworm View Post
    I read the rules carefully, but it nevertheless stroke me that only one thread was actually left to discussion.
    Unless you've lurked far longer than your join date suggests, you've had very little exposure to the ATM forum. Sometimes, it's very quiet, with few open threads. Other times, it is quite busy with many ongoing discussions.

    It is certainly not a welcome to those who know that their ideas are already uncertain, thus to anybody that has a new idea, which is always uncertain by definition. Anyway, I know that the question of change is not a rational one, what will be coming after is unpredictable, so mainstream people cannot deal with it.
    Again with the false premise. I'm sure there are a few "mainstream people" who can't deal with change but the study and practice of science is about learning and discovery of what we do not yet know...and those are pretty significant changes. But it's not easy. It requires effort and rigor. New ideas are examined, questioned, tested, twisted, bent, pounded, and held under a harsh light. Workable ideas survive the process. Unworkable ideas don't. It's how new ideas become mainstream ideas...or not.

    For instance if the threads were allowed to be opened more than 30 days, or if the questions could be asked both ways.
    There are reasons for the 30-day limit. There are also reasons for granting extensions to the limit. Being unprepared is not one of them. If you want lengthy, unregulated, anything-goes discussion of your ideas, there are plenty of places on the great big Internet where you can have them. CosmoQuest isn't one of them.
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  9. #9
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    I don't look at ATM much, except in looking at links from the suspended posters thread, which are generally informative and entertaining. It is immensely valuable to see how robust physics and astronomy are against ignorant challenge. CQ sets high scientific standards, namely that anyone who wants to challenge mainstream consensus has to know what they are talking about and use evidence and logic in the process. ATM shows that science is an open and contestable endeavour, but that the idea a lone genius is going to overturn widely corroborated knowledge is rather like Don Quixote tilting at a windmill. Like in the book by Cervantes, the windmill will pick him up and dump him, and he won't even see what it is. I like knowing that ATM is there so that anyone who claims they can disprove scientific knowledge can easily test their claims against some very smart and knowledgeable people, providing learning for everyone who reads it.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inchworm View Post
    It is certainly not a welcome to those who know that their ideas are already uncertain, thus to anybody that has a new idea, which is always uncertain by definition.
    Well, it just means one has to think it through ahead of time and look for the potential problems with one's idea before throwing it out there. I don't visit there much. I checked out what czeslaw had to say recently, but quickly moved on, haha. I salute the responders.
    Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inchworm View Post
    ... but it nevertheless stroke me ...
    Different forum. You may mean "struck".
    Measure once, cut twice. Practice makes perfect.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by pzkpfw View Post
    Different forum. You may mean "struck".
    My thoughts exactly. Of course the smartest people can be and are wrong frequently. The greatest physicists had arguments. Some were right, some were wrong. Then again, the world is littered with cracked pots as well.

    I think the forum could be better, but I wouldn't know how to make it any different. And I sure wouldn't want to do the work to make it better. I wouldn't even want to be a moderator even if I had the skills. I wouldn't want to review all those questions the board members answer. I hope these people are getting something out of all the work they put in.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inchworm View Post
    Hi Slang,

    I read the rules carefully, but it nevertheless stroke me that only one thread was actually left to discussion. It is certainly not a welcome to those who know that their ideas are already uncertain, thus to anybody that has a new idea, which is always uncertain by definition. Anyway, I know that the question of change is not a rational one, what will be coming after is unpredictable, so mainstream people cannot deal with it. What outsiders do here is only try their luck, because change is only due to hazard. Maybe if mainstream people could consider change this way, it would help it to happen more often. Who knows! For instance if the threads were allowed to be opened more than 30 days, or if the questions could be asked both ways.
    You do know that we found most of the universe less than 20 years ago, in a manner which which was nearly insane at the time? An idea that Einstein himself called his biggest blunder yet turned out to be right after all?

    No, sorry, it isnt the mainstream people who have actually put in the time and effort to learn physics who cannot deal with it, it is the person who has learned a few buzzwords and then thinks he or she is the next Newton who cannot deal with it. I've been here a while, and in that time there has been exactly one thread which wasnt immediately and rather trivially been shown wrong. The rules here are the way they are to stop people from clogging the board with nonsense.

  14. #14
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    As PetersCreek says I believe what you want is available on other forums. CQ's ATM section does a very good job of preventing people from filling Q&A with their unfounded, undeveloped ideas. It does this by asking them to put up or shut up. And in almost every case it turns out that they cannot put up. This being publicly demonstrated is perhaps the best way to keep the forum useful and informative.

    I'll also reiterate a point I make in most threads about the ATM section. There are people who seem to think that the ideas are the hard part of developing a scientific theory and that because they have done the 'hard part' they are automatically entitled to help, support and so on in developing this idea into an actual theory. Well the shock punchline is that ideas are not the hard part. Ideas are actually pretty easy and even those nasty nasty mainstreamers have lots. The hard part is turning a pretty picture you have in your head into a model and testing it. The picture may seem completely convincing to them but without doing the actual hard part that means nothing. If someone really thinks the idea is that good then the onus is on them to at least start doing the hard part. And the evidence from ATM suggests that very few people have done that or are willing to do that. They will spend 30 days describing the pictures in their head in ever more detail and making excuses about why that should be enough - and then when no one is willing to do their job for them they will blame this on the community. It is too dogmatic. It is afraid of change. It is closed and hates outsiders. It has vested interests. And on and on. A litany of excuses. And it is never the fault of the person presenting the idea, it is never because they did a bad job.

    For me, at least, the reason the forum is not that welcoming is down to disappointment. I want people to have challenging new ideas. I want them to make me think. I want them to present something that could be new science. Yet time after time all I get is lengthy stories about how things might work. Usually with a few truculent misconceptions about what the mainstream theories imply or say. Boring. Point out flaws. Don't get into a long and pointless argument based on stories and pictures. Move on.

  15. #15
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    Sorry for the stroke guys, english is not my native language.

    Thanks for your comprehensive answers. Unfortunately, I have to agree with all of them. I think exactly the same when I exchange ideas, except maybe uncertain ones that appear interesting. Then my defense is not so airtight because my ideas are full of holes. Nothing we can do about that, except staying as cool as you are with me. The more humanity grows, the less it kills the messenger, and I think its a good thing because it favors diversity, which helps favorable changes to happen.

    My thread about the link between motion and mass has been closed and I am not allowed to discuss that matter again, it was the reason for my being here so I will probably try my luck elsewhere for the moment.

    Thanks again everybody, I wish you favorable winds!

    Raymond

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaula View Post
    <snip>

    I'll also reiterate a point I make in most threads about the ATM section. There are people who seem to think that the ideas are the hard part of developing a scientific theory and that because they have done the 'hard part' they are automatically entitled to help, support and so on in developing this idea into an actual theory. Well the shock punchline is that ideas are not the hard part. Ideas are actually pretty easy and even those nasty nasty mainstreamers have lots. The hard part is turning a pretty picture you have in your head into a model and testing it. The picture may seem completely convincing to them but without doing the actual hard part that means nothing. If someone really thinks the idea is that good then the onus is on them to at least start doing the hard part.
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  17. #17
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    After discussion among the Moderation Team, an update to the ATM Advice thread has been made, based on Shaula's post.
    At night the stars put on a show for free (Carole King)

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