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Thread: What is in a Uniform or Title (Workplace chat)

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    I figure that if people worry about this sort of thing it's nice, because it means they don't have anything actually distressing to worry about.
    I was also thinking it's perhaps best to avoid being a patient of a doctor who cares about such things, because I'd prefer to be treated by somebody who wanted to learn how to treat patients rather than someone who studied medicine in order to get a fancy schmantzy title.
    As above, so below

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    Quote Originally Posted by swampyankee View Post
    When I worked in industry, we were usually on a first name basis with everyone else, regardless of position. The company added, in large letters, what we wanted to be called. One -- exactly one -- specified that he was to be called by the title "Mr." followed by his surname. First names were for friends and family (he may have had neither)
    Just curious, but were all the people Americans? In the US, first names are the norm, but not everywhere. In Japan it's not that usual to call people by their first name in the workplace.
    As above, so below

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    I was also thinking it's perhaps best to avoid being a patient of a doctor who cares about such things, because I'd prefer to be treated by somebody who wanted to learn how to treat patients rather than someone who studied medicine in order to get a fancy schmantzy title.
    There was a body of opinion in my ex-specialty (anaesthesia) that patients were not sufficiently aware that anaesthetists are medical doctors, something which is pretty much universally true in the UK, although not elsewhere. (And, to be fair, I did have an elderly aunt who, when she found out I was going to be an anaesthetist, asked me why I was throwing away all my medical training.)
    Anyway, about once a decade one or other of my various professional bodies (of whom I am well rid) would launch a campaign to "educate" patients about the "status" of anaesthetists. The avowed intention of this process was so that patients would be reassured that they were in the hands of people who were highly trained and knew what they were doing. (And nothing at all to do with status-seeking behaviour among those who seek office in professional bodies. No,no. Not at all. Why would you think such a thing?)

    Me, I figured that there was this thing involving "sitting down and talking to the patient" that had been working pretty well for me in that regard so far, and I wasn't sure how much it would actually help for me to hand them a leaflet saying, "This person is an actual doctor!"

    I did once have a patient who asked me point-blank "Are you a doctor?" When I confirmed that I was, his wife handed him ten pounds, because they'd had a bet about whether anaesthetists were doctors. When I asked if maybe I shouldn't have a cut in this bet, he solemnly handed me a fiver. (I gave it back to him and suggested he at least wait until after the anaesthetic.)

    Grant Hutchison

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    Quote Originally Posted by Solfe View Post
    Generally, in NYS you cannot work to the most relevant title, only the highest. A prime example of this is an LPN vs. RN. It used to be that people would start as an LPN and then become an RN if they felt like getting the extra training. This is becoming infrequent. As a consequence, a few would have the job title LPN but is actually trained a RN standards. They have to work as an RN. The difference is in ability to give certain medications and perform certain tasks.

    You would not want a RN saying "Not it!" because they happen to have a name tag that says "LPN". It sounds trivial, but it really isn't. There used to be something called a diploma nurse. They aren't RN's or LPNs. I have never gotten a good feel of what makes them different, other than the fact that they physically lived in the hospital where they worked and went to school.

    What makes it all so confusing is that colleges can turn an LPN or diploma nurse into an RN with certain classes and acceptance to a program, under the direct auspices of s hospital
    . This is not very obvious to an observer.
    Diploma nurses have gone through a three-year program, which were under the direct auspices of a hospital, so the program integrated a lot of practicum in from day one. In the US, the diploma program has largely been supplanted by associate and bachelor degree programs. The hospitals around here won't hire associate's degree nurses.
    Last edited by swampyankee; 2017-Jul-20 at 12:37 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by swampyankee View Post
    Diploma nurses have gone through a three-year program, which were under the direct auspices of a hospital, so the program integrated a lot of practicum in from day one. In the US, the diploma program has largely been supplanted by associate and bachelor degree programs. The hospitals around here won't hire associate's degree nurses.
    Where is that? Where I am LPN programs are not real active, but associates programs are rocking. For every offering for a BA in nursing, there seems to be 2 colleges offering the associates.
    Solfe, Dominus Maris Pavos.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    "I didn't spend six years at Evil Medical School to be called 'Mister,' thank you very much!"
    Unless you're a surgeon in the UK, who, as I've learned from Doc Martin, are called "Mister" to distinguish them from mere physicians. Which reminds me, somehow, of when my mother-in-law had a bit of brain surgery. We were talking to the neurosurgeon and asked a medical question. He said "Oh, I'm just a brain mechanic. You'll have to ask a doctor about that."
    Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.

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    Some people go to school for a title while others are just interested in learning the subject matter. Even when I went to night school to pick up a skill I would cut out of finals because getting a credit or diploma had no function for me. Once I learned the material and classes had no more new things to grasp I saw no reason to stick around. I do realize that such an attitude doesn't go well in medicine but my experience in the military gave a lot of us the impression many medics took up no more than a biology class in high school. Many of the wounded called them anything but "doctor".
    Last edited by blueshift; 2017-Jul-20 at 01:53 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Solfe View Post
    Where is that? Where I am LPN programs are not real active, but associates programs are rocking. For every offering for a BA in nursing, there seems to be 2 colleges offering the associates.
    Yale-New Haven won't hire RNs with only associate's degrees, nor will its affiliated hospitals. The relatively few LPNs my wife knew when she was working at St Raphael's (she was an RN in SICU and PACU there for about 30 years) were grandfathered in; neither hospital in New Haven (St Ray's and Yale-New Haven) would hire LPNs after the mid-1980s.

    Information about American English usage here and here. Floating point issues? Please read this before posting.

    How do things fly? This explains it all.

    Actually they can't: "Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible." - Lord Kelvin, president, Royal Society, 1895.



  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solfe View Post
    <whine>This is impossible! First they gave Wonder Woman a comic book movie that didn't suck, then Lyndia Carter rocked a bathing suit for a commercial and still looks amazing at 65. Now Doctor Who is a woman! What is happening?</whine>
    Did you know that Linda Carter is also a very good jazz singer? A video game I like to mess with called FallOut 4 has a bar in one of the settlements that

    has a jazz singer in it as a character played by her. She sings several songs on stage and all of them good. I am not a jazz aficionado but I liked it enough

    to google the VO actress and there she was! Wow. She really is good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by swampyankee View Post
    Yale-New Haven won't hire RNs with only associate's degrees, nor will its affiliated hospitals. The relatively few LPNs my wife knew when she was working at St Raphael's (she was an RN in SICU and PACU there for about 30 years) were grandfathered in; neither hospital in New Haven (St Ray's and Yale-New Haven) would hire LPNs after the mid-1980s.
    I have rewritten this about 10 times. It is confusing.

    In New York, an RN is required to take 30 credits of nursing classes for 2 years for a total of at least 120 credits. The piece of paper you get may say whatever the school likes, my wife's says "Associates Degree in Nursing". Her transcripts look more like my BA degree than my associate's even though we went to the same 2 year school and even took some of the same classes. She had half again the credit hours I had and I already had too many credit hours for my associates.

    If you want to say you have a bachelors' of nursing, you need to go back to school for 2 more years on top of what you did for your RN. It is about the same level of work as a Master's degree. A lot of schools do not offer a direct path from nothing to bachelor's of nursing. This is usually a university program as opposed to a college program. There is some goofiness with the straight 4 year program which doesn't make a whole heck of a lot of sense outside the area of nursing. Being an RN half way through would be one of them, getting a traditional 4 year degree in a minimum of 5 is another.

    In New York, the difference between LPN and RN is about a 2 semesters. As near as I can tell, both have similar starting 2 semesters and then diverge so that the LPN can graduate after 3 semesters. However, the school will encourage the LPN to stay one more semester and leave with some sort of associate's degree on top of the reqs for LPN. That is odd because they legitimately graduate twice in their second year, where as anyone else wouldn't. It a good policy, except for the fact that 4 semesters could have given them an RN's license. For this reason, a lot of schools have closed their LPN programs entirely and it is more of a post high school training thing over college work.

    My son's high school starts vetting students for LPN freshman year. It takes about 1200 hours to complete. I am sort of up in the air if this a great thing or bad thing. Super cheap and shows a lot of dedication from young people, but I am afraid that LPN's already have enough career pressures before you throw 18-20 year old into the mix.
    Last edited by Solfe; 2017-Jul-20 at 03:43 AM.
    Solfe, Dominus Maris Pavos.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypmotoad View Post
    Did you know that Linda Carter is also a very good jazz singer? A video game I like to mess with called FallOut 4 has a bar in one of the settlements that

    has a jazz singer in it as a character played by her. She sings several songs on stage and all of them good. I am not a jazz aficionado but I liked it enough

    to google the VO actress and there she was! Wow. She really is good.
    You know, I said this in reference to Doctor Who but the reality is, sometimes you are completely outclassed by those around you and gender has nothing to do with anything. I bet there is some one out there whining that "somebody gave Lynda Carter wwwaaaayyy too many skills to be realistic." not realizing that Lynda Carter is a person and not Wonder Woman's comic book alter-ego. It makes me want to cry.
    Solfe, Dominus Maris Pavos.

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    Quote Originally Posted by swampyankee View Post
    When I worked in industry, we were usually on a first name basis with everyone else, regardless of position. The company added, in large letters, what we wanted to be called. One -- exactly one -- specified that he was to be called by the title "Mr." followed by his surname. First names were for friends and family (he may have had neither)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    Just curious, but were all the people Americans? In the US, first names are the norm, but not everywhere. In Japan it's not that usual to call people by their first name in the workplace.
    US aerospace company on the East Coast.

    Information about American English usage here and here. Floating point issues? Please read this before posting.

    How do things fly? This explains it all.

    Actually they can't: "Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible." - Lord Kelvin, president, Royal Society, 1895.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
    Unless you're a surgeon in the UK, who, as I've learned from Doc Martin, are called "Mister" to distinguish them from mere physicians.
    It's a bit of tradition. In the Middle Ages, physicians went to university and received a doctorate degree that entitled them to practise medicine. But surgeons underwent an apprenticeship, sat an exam, and were awarded a diploma which allowed them to practise surgery. No doctorate, no title.
    Nowadays, all medical practitioners have the same basic university degree, and are called "doctor" when that is awarded. But we then go on to sit post-graduate specialty exams, administered by the various Royal Colleges, which allow us to practice in our own specialty. The surgical exam is administered by the Royal College of Surgeons, a successor to the Surgeons' Company that used to bestow the original surgical diplomas - and so surgeons revert to "mister" when they receive their Fellowship of the Royal College of Surgeons.

    Grant Hutchison

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    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    It's a bit of tradition. In the Middle Ages, physicians went to university and received a doctorate degree that entitled them to practise medicine. But surgeons underwent an apprenticeship, sat an exam, and were awarded a diploma which allowed them to practise surgery. No doctorate, no title.
    Nowadays, all medical practitioners have the same basic university degree, and are called "doctor" when that is awarded. But we then go on to sit post-graduate specialty exams, administered by the various Royal Colleges, which allow us to practice in our own specialty. The surgical exam is administered by the Royal College of Surgeons, a successor to the Surgeons' Company that used to bestow the original surgical diplomas - and so surgeons revert to "mister" when they receive their Fellowship of the Royal College of Surgeons.

    Grant Hutchison
    I have a professor who is very insistent on his "doctor" title and has a rather high opinion of where he socially ranks out in comparison to an MD. Personally, I am on a similar educational track as him, except I will be certified to work with children. I am of the opinion that a Ph.D. in history (even with a masters in childhood education) is markedly different the educational experience of a medical doctor. So much so, that I wouldn't want to start comparing.

    What really makes me chuckle about this was a chance meeting between a friend, Mister Z and my history professor. They got along very well. Mr. Z. last name is unpronounceable, so this is how he introduces himself. He used to teach at my previous school. I know him very well and often refer to him as Dr. Hider. This is owing to the fact that he has a Ph.D. in Chemistry, an second in Education and lord knows how many lesser degrees under those. He has a BA in chemistry, another type of degree in computer science and probably one or two more. And he still introduces himself as Mister.

    Since this started off as workplace and gender thread, I have to note that Dr. Hider used to work with a woman with similar credentials, except with Ph.D's in French and Spanish languages and a special education. She goes by "Professora". While in public, both of them are rather unassuming, in private they both have a tendency to question the sanity of placing Ph.D. in the classroom without any educational background. I suspect the point they are trying to make is that college lecturers are more along the lines of apprenticeship than a pure pursuit of knowledge.
    Last edited by Solfe; 2017-Aug-13 at 08:02 AM. Reason: typo - missing an "a"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
    Unless you're a surgeon in the UK, who, as I've learned from Doc Martin, are called "Mister" to distinguish them from mere physicians.
    My recent surgeon went by "Ms." And no doubt was regularly mistaken for a nurse.

  16. 2017-Aug-13, 11:14 AM
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  17. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    There was a body of opinion in my ex-specialty (anaesthesia) that patients were not sufficiently aware that anaesthetists are medical doctors, something which is pretty much universally true in the UK, although not elsewhere. (And, to be fair, I did have an elderly aunt who, when she found out I was going to be an anaesthetist, asked me why I was throwing away all my medical training.)
    Anyway, about once a decade one or other of my various professional bodies (of whom I am well rid) would launch a campaign to "educate" patients about the "status" of anaesthetists. The avowed intention of this process was so that patients would be reassured that they were in the hands of people who were highly trained and knew what they were doing. (And nothing at all to do with status-seeking behaviour among those who seek office in professional bodies. No,no. Not at all. Why would you think such a thing?)

    Me, I figured that there was this thing involving "sitting down and talking to the patient" that had been working pretty well for me in that regard so far, and I wasn't sure how much it would actually help for me to hand them a leaflet saying, "This person is an actual doctor!"

    I did once have a patient who asked me point-blank "Are you a doctor?" When I confirmed that I was, his wife handed him ten pounds, because they'd had a bet about whether anaesthetists were doctors. When I asked if maybe I shouldn't have a cut in this bet, he solemnly handed me a fiver. (I gave it back to him and suggested he at least wait until after the anaesthetic.)

    Grant Hutchison

    In the US, anesthetists are usually nurses. Anesthesiologists are always MDs.

    Information about American English usage here and here. Floating point issues? Please read this before posting.

    How do things fly? This explains it all.

    Actually they can't: "Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible." - Lord Kelvin, president, Royal Society, 1895.



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    Quote Originally Posted by swampyankee View Post
    In the US, anesthetists are usually nurses. Anesthesiologists are always MDs.
    Very few nurse anaesthetists in the UK, despite efforts to create a training programme, a while ago. And no anaesthesiologists. Life's short enough without have to say three extra syllables every time you introduce yourself at work.

    Grant Hutchison

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    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    Very few nurse anaesthetists in the UK, despite efforts to create a training programme, a while ago. And no anaesthesiologists. Life's short enough without have to say three extra syllables every time you introduce yourself at work.

    Grant Hutchison
    You could always use the old nick, "gas passer."
    Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by ignorance or stupidity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim View Post
    You could always use the old nick, "gas passer."
    Bit of a transgressive term, that one. If you ever want to find out what icy courtesy sounds like, call your anaesthetist a "gas passer". "Gasman" and its non-sexist equivalent "gasser" are even shorter, but opinion is divided on whether they're more or less offensive than "gas passer".

    Grant Hutchison

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    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    Very few nurse anaesthetists in the UK, despite efforts to create a training programme, a while ago. And no anaesthesiologists. Life's short enough without have to say three extra syllables every time you introduce yourself at work.

    Grant Hutchison
    And yet you insist on an extra one in "aluminum".
    Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
    And yet you insist on an extra one in "aluminum".
    linoleum
    aluminum
    linoleum
    aluminum

    ...junior high choir practice exercise.

    Title, hmmm. I'm called a "transcriber." But in real life I'm a poet.
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  23. #52
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    Aluminium, the song.

    "Aluminum to me
    "Aluminum to some
    "You can shine like sliver all you want
    "But you're just Aluminum"
    Solfe, Dominus Maris Pavos.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
    And yet you insist on an extra one in "aluminum".
    But we it back by calling a faucet a "tap". It's a complex and subtle system.

    Grant Hutchison

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    Two nations, separated by a common language!
    Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.

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    I have what is called a masters degree (in math), and I went through a geology PhD program which included all required course work, passing writtens and orals, and writing a dissertation (but never "completing" it). A high school student called me "doctor grapes" a couple months ago, and caught himself, and flippantly asked, "are you a doctor?" Without thinking, obviously, I replied, "I'm a doctor of love."

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    I went through a nightmare chemistry course... Microbiology? Maybe, organic chemistry. I don't know. All I do know is people realized my name was Phil and I had to wear a lab coat. Weeks and weeks of being called "Dr. Phil". I already had a low opinion of the TV personality. In a room with 30 students, every 15 minutes someone forgot that I had already been called "Dr. Phil" that day and the thing started over. Grrr...

    I have no care for chemistry or biology, but I can set equipment and push tools like champ, all because I could leave when my stuff was done.
    Solfe, Dominus Maris Pavos.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    But we it back by calling a faucet a "tap". It's a complex and subtle system.

    Grant Hutchison
    Oddly, we tend to get tap water from the kitchen faucet. And, of course, beer is bottled, canned, or "on tap."
    Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by ignorance or stupidity.
    Isaac Asimov

    You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They donít alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit their views.
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    I went through a nightmare chemistry course... Microbiology? Maybe, organic chemistry. I don't know. All I do know is people realized my name was Phil and I had to wear a lab coat. Weeks and weeks of being called "Dr. Phil". I already had a low opinion of the TV personality. In a room with 30 students, every 15 minutes someone forgot that I had already been called "Dr. Phil" that day and the thing started over. Grrr...
    I came to this forum because of a different "Dr. Phil", who was featured in SMBC a couple days ago.
    Last edited by Trebuchet; 2017-Aug-14 at 05:27 PM. Reason: quoted wrong post!
    Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
    I came to this forum because of a different "Dr. Phil", who was featured in SMBC a couple days ago.
    Me too, but I'd never call him Dr. Phil.
    Solfe, Dominus Maris Pavos.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    But we it back by calling a faucet a "tap". It's a complex and subtle system.

    Grant Hutchison
    I have a Scottish friend who was surprised to learn that USA calls roofing tiles "shingles." And a Tollhouse is a prison (he says) ... so Tollhouse Cookies are prison cookies?
    Dip me in ink and toss me to the Poets.

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