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Thread: T-rex vs modern species.

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    T-rex vs modern species.

    T-rex was certainly a powerful predator, and while I have no doubt it would win in a fight against something like a wolf or bear or lion, I've wondered how well it would do against other modern animals.

    - Would the bite of an Inland Taipan snake be able to penetrate the hide of the T-rex? If so then wouldn't the snake be able to either outright kill a T-rex, or at least make it a mutual kill where both die since the bite would take some time to take affect?

    - Homo Sapiens would normally be only a snack for the massive predator, but we can organize and set traps. Would having to compete with the T-rex imply the extinction of humanity if we'd coexisted with them? There would be areas, caves and small islands, that would be safe. And we are adept at using long range weapons like bows and spears as well as fire. Would we be just a snack, or would we be the ones snacking on a nice T-rex roast?

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    The taipan can kill an elephant?

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    You mean like neolithic man/woman?

    I think it would be a matter of time before T-rex became extinct. The eyes of most predators would be the thing to damage/destroy....once blinded they would be nearly defenceless.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noisy Rhysling View Post
    The taipan can kill an elephant?
    I read about a case in which a cobra killed an elephant in India, but it was not a drop-it-in-its-tracks kill. The elephant took about three hours to die, and it could have trampled the snake if so inclined.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hornblower View Post
    I read about a case in which a cobra killed an elephant in India, but it was not a drop-it-in-its-tracks kill. The elephant took about three hours to die, and it could have trampled the snake if so inclined.
    And Mr. T. is larger (or close to the same size) than an elephant, some lethality can be assumed until better information is available.

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    I had a tee shirt made when I was a teenager that said

    "If the T-rex wasn't already extinct, it would be."

    And no, T-rex wouldn't have the same vulnerability to snake venom that elephants do. Because elephants are vulnerable for very specific reasons. Elephants have three to four inch thick hide most man portable firearms can't penetrate very well, much less fangs designed to kill rodents.

    Except for the very end of their trunks. And this is where they receive fatal bites. The elephant then suffocates when its trunk swells shut. A lot of large animals suffocate when they can't breathe through their noses even with a mammalian palate system. Horses come to mind for one.

    And forget spears and arrows. Humans have observation and planning.

    Think about megalania, the 30 foot long komodo dragons. (It's been proven megalania and komodo dragons are they same genus and maybe even species. Komodo dragons suffer from island dwarfism!) The Australian aborigines killed them off less than a thousand years after they arrived in Australia simply because 30 foot long komodo dragons are intolerable as part of your eco-system.

    But they are not born thirty feet long. But as large, tasty eggs. THAT'S where you hit them. And if you have to kill the guarding female to do it, so much the better. I'm sure if you looked hard enough in the Australian bush you can find something poisonous for her to eat. If not, a flexible stick sharpened at both ends, bent, tied with sinew and then put in a large piece of meat will work. When the sinew is digested the stick springs open and causes massive internal hemorrhaging. Eskimos used this method to kill polar bears prior to guns.

    And just so you know most active vertebrate predators larger than a hundred pounds can kill prey animals four to five times their weight. A really big African elephant weighs six tons. That means a young, one ton adolescent T-rex could take down a solo elephant with ease.
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    They also got more lizard pate per fight with the big ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDon View Post
    .

    And just so you know most active vertebrate predators larger than a hundred pounds can kill prey animals four to five times their weight. A really big African elephant weighs six tons. That means a young, one ton adolescent T-rex could take down a solo elephant with ease.
    I presume you're referring to Gwangi?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noisy Rhysling View Post
    I presume you're referring to Gwangi?
    Actually I was thinking of Andrewsarchus. They were fairly pesky back in the olden days.
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    Though my all time new favorite are the Archaeotherium.

    Hooved carnivores large enough chase down camelids and characteristically pace the poor creature before biting away the back of its skull and top three cervical vertebra.

    That sort of turns off a camelid like a switch.

    The Archeotherium would then bite off the lower body just south of the ribs with a snip and then swallow the lower body whole. These are the same creatures that can bite sea turtles in half without worrying it to pieces so a guanaco-like waist isn't going to slow it down.

    They then cached the upper bodies for later. Got pictures if you want to see them. (Have to find them.) The paper I gleaned them from took pains to establish their methodology for determining these beast's gullet size from rather complete fossils and they could easily swallow the hips and pelvis of their prey.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdrw View Post
    - Homo Sapiens would normally be only a snack for the massive predator, but we can organize and set traps. Would having to compete with the T-rex imply the extinction of humanity if we'd coexisted with them? There would be areas, caves and small islands, that would be safe. And we are adept at using long range weapons like bows and spears as well as fire. Would we be just a snack, or would we be the ones snacking on a nice T-rex roast?
    Homo Sapiens are too prolific, intelligent and wily to be extincted by Rex.

    We are probably the only macro-fauna predator that breeds like prey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveC426913 View Post
    Homo Sapiens are too prolific, intelligent and wily to be extincted by Rex.

    We are probably the only macro-fauna predator that breeds like prey.
    I'm just wondering, what do you mean by "breeds like prey"?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    I'm just wondering, what do you mean by "breeds like prey"?
    I would say having a high birth rate that enables the species to withstand heavy losses from predators.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hornblower View Post
    I would say having a high birth rate that enables the species to withstand heavy losses from predators.
    I thought that might be what he meant to say. But humans don't have a very high birth rate, right? I mean, we have one (occasionally two) children at most once a year, and usually only once every two years. Cats and dogs have more than that AFAIK.

    But maybe he meant the opposite, because deer and cows typically only have one baby at a time. So maybe that was the intent. But in that case, rabbits or mice have lots of babies.

    Is there really a connection between birth rates and predator/prey? I don't really see it.
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    The predator-to-prey relationship (for large mammals at least) needs to be something like 1:200 to be sustainable.

    Humans don't seem to stop when they exceed their optimal prey capacity. They just expand and expand. I guess that has more to do with being omnivore. We don't starve because we are generalists when it comes to food supply. Having a high intelligence means we are not population-limited by a narrow food supply.

    So I can't see human population ever being so low as to be in jeopardy by another predator.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveC426913 View Post
    The predator-to-prey relationship (for large mammals at least) needs to be something like 1:200 to be sustainable. Humans don't seem to stop when they exceed their optimal prey capacity.
    I don't think any animal stops naturally when they exceed the prey capacity. It's just that if their number increases, the number of predators increases as well, and they get cut back down. But for humans, we have no predators and we are capable of using agriculture to increase food production, so we don't starve as we would if we didn't have technology. I don't think it has to do with breeding. In many places in the developed world the fertility rate is below 2, so we are not even replacing ourselves, but that has more to do with our having a tendency to invest a lot into children than it does with any shortage.
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    Man portable weapons for T. rex? Google Carl Gustav and pick the 84 mm one. It can take down an armored vehicle. Not tanks, but just about anything else.
    Last edited by swampyankee; 2017-Aug-14 at 06:54 AM.

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    How about Bazooka Charlie?

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    Quote Originally Posted by swampyankee View Post
    Man portable weapons for T. rex? Google Carl Gustav and pick the 84 mm one. It can take down an armored vehicle. Not tanks, but just about anything else.
    My assumption is that the OP is asking about paleolithic people rather than people today. I do see a problem with that premise, because then we also have to wonder if humans would have developed at all if dinosaurs were still around. Primates might have never developed in the first place. So I guess the premise is that dinosaurs suddenly appear in a paleolithic human world.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    My assumption is that the OP is asking about paleolithic people rather than people today. I do see a problem with that premise, because then we also have to wonder if humans would have developed at all if dinosaurs were still around. Primates might have never developed in the first place. So I guess the premise is that dinosaurs suddenly appear in a paleolithic human world.
    A gopher call would be a fairly good defense against a T-Rex. Get out sight and be quick about it. I would think primates would be good at that tactic. A lot of them are good at basic communication, at least good enough to say "Move!". Now if they got it in their heads that a T-Rex is yummy, then we can revert to "no primates" again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by swampyankee View Post
    Man portable weapons for T. rex? Google Carl Gustav and pick the 84 mm one. It can take down an armored vehicle. Not tanks, but just about anything else.
    I'd go for Shwerer Gustav. I don't do subtle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noisy Rhysling View Post
    I'd go for Shwerer Gustav. I don't do subtle.
    Not terribly portable, though, and it wouldn't leave enough for dino-burgers or a trophy.

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    In no way am I going against the mainstream view that dinosaurs disappeared forever 65 million years ago, but does not the sober historiographer Marco Polo's description from 1280 sound a dash Tyrannosaurian?!


    "Leaving the city of Yachi, and traveling ten days in a westerly direction, you reach the province of Karazan, which is also the name of the chief city....Here are seen huge serpents, ten paces in length (about 30 feet), and ten spans (about 8 feet) girt of the body. At the fore part, near the head, they have two short legs, having three claws like those of a tiger, with eyes larger than a forepenny loaf (pane da quattro denari) and very glaring."

    The jaws are wide enough to swallow a man, the teeth are large and sharp, and their whole appearance is so formidable, that neither man, nor any kind of animal can approach them without terror. Others are met with of a smaller size, being eight, six, or 5 paces long; and the following method is used for taking them. In the day-time, by reason of great heat, they lurk in caverns, from whence, at night, they issue to seek their food, and whatever beast they meet with and can lay hold of, whether tiger, wolf, or any other, they devour;


    After which they drag themselves towards some lake, spring of water, or river, in order to drink. By their motion in this way along the shore, and their vast weight, they make a deep impression, as if a heavy beam had been drawn along the sands. Those whose employment is to hunt them observe the track by which they are most frequently accustomed to go, and fix into the ground several pieces of wood, armed with sharp iron spikes, which they cover with sand in such a manner as not to be perceptible.

    When therefore the animals make their way towards the places they usually haunt, they are wounded by these instruments, and speedily killed. The crows, as soon as they perceive them to be dead, set up to scream; and this serves as a signal to the hunters, who advance the spot, and proceed to separate the skin from the flesh, taking care immediately to secure the gall, which is most highly esteemed in medicine.

    In cases of the bite of a mad dog, a penny weight of it, dissolved in wine, is administered. It is also useful in accelerating parturition, when the labor pains of women have come on. A small quantity of it being applied to carbuncles, pustules, or other eruptions on the body, they are presently dispersed; and it is efficacious in many other complaints.

    The flesh also of the animal is sold at a dear rate, being thought to have a higher flavor than other kinds of meat, and by all persons it is esteemed a delicacy."
    Last edited by wd40; 2017-Aug-14 at 09:33 PM.

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    Naaw, allosaurid of some sort.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wd40 View Post
    In no way am I going against the mainstream view that dinosaurs disappeared forever 65 million years ago, but does not the sober historiographer Marco Polo's description from 1280 sound a dash Tyrannosaurian?!


    "Leaving the city of Yachi, and traveling ten days in a westerly direction, you reach the province of Karazan, which is also the name of the chief city....Here are seen huge serpents, ten paces in length (about 30 feet), and ten spans (about 8 feet) girt of the body. At the fore part, near the head, they have two short legs, having three claws like those of a tiger, with eyes larger than a forepenny loaf (pane da quattro denari) and very glaring."

    The jaws are wide enough to swallow a man, the teeth are large and sharp, and their whole appearance is so formidable, that neither man, nor any kind of animal can approach them without terror. Others are met with of a smaller size, being eight, six, or 5 paces long; and the following method is used for taking them. In the day-time, by reason of great heat, they lurk in caverns, from whence, at night, they issue to seek their food, and whatever beast they meet with and can lay hold of, whether tiger, wolf, or any other, they devour;


    After which they drag themselves towards some lake, spring of water, or river, in order to drink. By their motion in this way along the shore, and their vast weight, they make a deep impression, as if a heavy beam had been drawn along the sands. Those whose employment is to hunt them observe the track by which they are most frequently accustomed to go, and fix into the ground several pieces of wood, armed with sharp iron spikes, which they cover with sand in such a manner as not to be perceptible.

    When therefore the animals make their way towards the places they usually haunt, they are wounded by these instruments, and speedily killed. The crows, as soon as they perceive them to be dead, set up to scream; and this serves as a signal to the hunters, who advance the spot, and proceed to separate the skin from the flesh, taking care immediately to secure the gall, which is most highly esteemed in medicine.

    In cases of the bite of a mad dog, a penny weight of it, dissolved in wine, is administered. It is also useful in accelerating parturition, when the labor pains of women have come on. A small quantity of it being applied to carbuncles, pustules, or other eruptions on the body, they are presently dispersed; and it is efficacious in many other complaints.

    The flesh also of the animal is sold at a dear rate, being thought to have a higher flavor than other kinds of meat, and by all persons it is esteemed a delicacy."
    Not really, in context. The trap described in is a traditional method for trapping tigers in India. The animal described sounds like a crocodile or alligator, which would have been captured and killed in the water by hook. In this excerpt, it is remarkably unclear as to where Marco was. It is presumed to be in the same local as the prior chapter, but he switched styles in the first few sentences: "You reach the province of Karazan". This may indicate that he was rolling with a poorly phrased description of something he heard and didn't see. He often made that distinction, but perhaps he missed a beat here.

    This Capitolo XL of book 2 of Il Milione. The parenthetical text is not in the original as near as I can tell. This is not helpful, as the book was titled Il Milione as in "a million lies".
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    Quote Originally Posted by swampyankee View Post
    Not terribly portable, though, and it wouldn't leave enough for dino-burgers or a trophy.
    In Texas that's a sidearm.

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    I think that Marco Polo's stories are generally considered to be genuine but with a bit of exaggeration here and then, as was popular in the style of the day. And yes, I think they sound like crocodiles. You presumably would not be able to injure a T. Rex by planting iron shafts in the ground (you might injure its feet), but a crocodile drags itself along the ground, so it would seem like an effective trap. In any case, it appears that Marco Polo didn't see them himself, but was relaying what he heard from local people, so there can be exaggeration as the stories get retold.
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    Yeah, it seems the poor T-rex would be outmatched by us lowly monkeys - we don't fight fair. The reason I mentioned the Inland Taipan snake is that its venom it so powerful it's toxic enough to kill a hundred men in one bite, and it bites several times in one attack. But if the bites can't penetrate the dino's skin then that toxicity is useless unless it adapted to always wait and bite the dinosaur's tongue. It would die, but by killing a t-rex it would provide enough meat for other snakes to eat for a long time. Bad for the individual but good for spreading the genes of the species.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cdrw View Post
    Yeah, it seems the poor T-rex would be outmatched by us lowly monkeys - we don't fight fair. The reason I mentioned the Inland Taipan snake is that its venom it so powerful it's toxic enough to kill a hundred men in one bite, and it bites several times in one attack. But if the bites can't penetrate the dino's skin then that toxicity is useless unless it adapted to always wait and bite the dinosaur's tongue. It would die, but by killing a t-rex it would provide enough meat for other snakes to eat for a long time. Bad for the individual but good for spreading the genes of the species.
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    Although no human ever saw a Tyrannosaurus, some kind of a primordial tradition of a serpentic/draconic/tyrannosauric-type creature must have made an impression on national memory that it should still be depicted to this day in the heraldry and symbology of the UK, China and elsewhere
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