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Thread: UFO's and Nukes, saved from ourselves?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spacedude View Post
    Perhaps ETs from other "Earth-like" worlds would have enough biological similarities to ours and could be interested in incorporating or harvesting certain advantageous traits on a genetic level which they lack?
    In that case they could just come and ask for a blood sample. To be honest, I'd be happy to oblige if it was going to help them. If they want lots of a certain compound, they can synthesize it if they want. All the biological molecules in our body are inherently synthesizable, because we (or something) synthesize them.
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    In that case they could just come and ask for a blood sample.
    But would they bother to go through the formalities or just take it or anything else that they might consider worthwhile? If they are here they're surely far more advanced and have the power to grab and go and not be hindered in any way. Probably their best defense in not exposing themselves is our own inherent unshakable doubt that they even exist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spacedude View Post
    But would they bother to go through the formalities or just take it or anything else that they might consider worthwhile? If they are here they're surely far more advanced and have the power to grab and go and not be hindered in any way. Probably their best defense in not exposing themselves is our own inherent unshakable doubt that they even exist.
    You seem to be mired in a contradiction there. Either they have the power to grab and go and not be hindered, or they have a need to avoid exposing themselves.

    Grant Hutchison

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    You seem to be mired in a contradiction there. Either they have the power to grab and go and not be hindered, or they have a need to avoid exposing themselves.
    Yes I need to clarify, both are to their advantage. By "unhindered" and "avoiding exposure" I mean that they could do what they pleased and at the same time not intentionally expose or announce themselves to the world. Purposely making themselves known wouldn't be a positive, but that of course is just one of many possibilities of whatever might motivate any ETs.

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    It's not clear to me why purposely making themselves known wouldn't be a positive. If they are simultaneously extremely powerful but (it seems) utterly inept at concealing their existence from eagle-eyed UFO spotters and abductees, they could save themselves a lot of hassle by simply doing whatever it is they want to do in an overt manner.

    Grant Hutchison

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    We must be careful of not applying our "logic" to alien minds.
    Last edited by gzhpcu; 2018-Apr-15 at 07:36 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gzhpcu View Post
    Actually, I do not think they would be particularly interested in us, but to exploit the resources of our planet, as I believe Stephen Hawking once stated. So, no sentinels needed, just the sight of our lovely planet.
    So when you make a comment like this, whose logic is it based on? How can you infer what would be logical for them?

    I would guess the answer is that you also agree that there can be universal logic, for example that all organisms struggle to survive. But you can’t just make statements about what would be logical for them if you assert that we cannot make any assumptions about their logic. Unless you personally have insights into the minds of ET races.


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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by gzhpcu View Post
    We must be careful of not applying our "logic" to alien minds.
    That's the get-out-of-jail-free card, certainly. How can we hope to understand the actions of alien visitors?
    I'm certainly fine with that as a stance, but only if we follow it to its logical conclusion (applying "our" logic to our own actions). Then we have to say that the bag into which we collect "UFO phenomena" is just a bag full of things we don't understand. The Exta Terrestrial Hypothesis is useless in helping us understand these phenomena, because we've already declared that we can't understand the actions of our imagined ETs. The ETH therefore adds no value, and should be discarded.

    But proponents of the ETH want their cake and eat it, too. For instance, this thread is predicated on the common "We do understand alien minds" trope of "saving us from ourselves", subset "nuclear weapons". Saying that aliens wish to be "unhindered" or wish to "avoid exposure" are also statements that we can understand alien minds. But as soon as any of these motives are found to be incompatible with each other or with the way the world actually works (for instance, what is actually causing species extinction on Earth), then we can be sure the ETH proponent will play the "we can't understand alien minds" card. They don't get to do that - they can't prepare a narrative of "what the aliens want", and then paper over the flaws in that narrative with the statement "We can never understand what the aliens want".

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    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    If the Space Brothers are keen to protect genetic diversity on Earth, they've been barking up the wrong tree with nuclear weapons systems - we've aleady done serious damage to genetic diversity without the use of a single nuclear weapon in the process.

    Grant Hutchison
    Well.... If the numerous reports of UFO's landing and doing Something at their landing sites are true, perhaps they are gathering and protecting DNA from our activities without resorting to full blown measures. Presumably some kind of cultural "non interference" protocol. Perhaps their social/cultural scientists have determined that we have a good chance of wiping out much of the genetic diversity on the planet and are taking measures to protect it. Perhaps they have determined that we are presently a self extinguishing semi intelligent life form that doesn't have the right to take down the rest of the planet with us.... Many possible scenarios exist if the Aliens exist. Perhaps our activities are only part of the picture and some other natural disaster is headed our way which will destroy a large % of the planets biological diversity and they are ameliorating our effects prior to the larger event while they collect their samples.
    Last edited by Grant Hatch; 2018-Apr-17 at 08:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant Hatch View Post
    Well.... If the numerous reports of UFO's landing and doing Something at their landing sites are true, perhaps they are gathering and protecting DNA from our activities without resorting to full blown measures. Presumably some kind of cultural "non interference" protocol.
    How does a non-interference protocol mesh with direct intervention in the case of nuclear weapons? Your scenario doesn't make sense. They are not going to interfere, except they grab people and generally do so much that they are now an ingrained part of pop culture. They are here to save us but only if we decide to use nuclear weapons, all the other methods of species suicide are apparently ok. Or covered by this non-intervention protocol that has a note on it saying nukes are exempt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaula View Post
    How does a non-interference protocol mesh with direct intervention in the case of nuclear weapons? Your scenario doesn't make sense. They are not going to interfere, except they grab people and generally do so much that they are now an ingrained part of pop culture. They are here to save us but only if we decide to use nuclear weapons, all the other methods of species suicide are apparently ok. Or covered by this non-intervention protocol that has a note on it saying nukes are exempt.
    You're assuming that only one species or one protocol exists. Could be there are more than one species of Alien here and that they have different agendas. Could be that a single Alien species has more than one agenda. There might be overlapping agendas. It might be even more complicated than that....I just enjoy speculating and letting my imagination come up with various scenarios depending on the input.

    PS, I was editing the quoted post while you were responding to it..... I added a bit more
    Last edited by Grant Hatch; 2018-Apr-17 at 08:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant Hatch View Post
    Well.... If the numerous reports of UFO's landing and doing Something at their landing sites are true,
    And if they are false, which is the explanation for which there is the most evidence, then the rest of this is just fiction.

    Speculating on the motivations for undemonstrated actions by undemonstrated aliens seems kind of pointless to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant Hatch View Post
    You're assuming that only one species or one protocol exists. Could be there are more than one species of Alien here and that they have different agendas. Could be that a single Alien species has more than one agenda. There might be overlapping agendas. It might be even more complicated than that....
    Or it could be much, much simpler.
    The amount of speculative complication now required to keep the ETH narrative afloat is another thing that renders it utterly unpersuasive and deeply tedious.

    Grant Hutchison

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swift View Post
    And if they are false, which is the explanation for which there is the most evidence, then the rest of this is just fiction.

    Speculating on the motivations for undemonstrated actions by undemonstrated aliens seems kind of pointless to me.
    Only if you can categorically prove they Don't exist. Otherwise it's an exercise which could possibly be of interest IF and when they ARE proven to exist. Think of it as a tool kit that we can refer to afterwards when trying to get a handle on the new paradigm.

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    "It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant Hatch View Post
    Only if you can categorically prove they Don't exist. Otherwise it's an exercise which could possibly be of interest IF and when they ARE proven to exist. Think of it as a tool kit that we can refer to afterwards when trying to get a handle on the new paradigm.
    It seems like fairly idle speculation to me, but I don't have any problem with idle speculation. What I wonder is, it seems that you want to believe that they exist (because you are always making up more possibilities for why they might). Personally I also basically wish that they did, simply because it would be an interesting thing to know, and to find out how life might exist differently from what we know. And I don't really worry very much about ETs being aggressive, because essentially I believe that FTL travel is not possible (the reason being that if it did, I think there would be evidence of it all around). So I think that if there were other life forms, I don't think there would really be interactions, so it would be safe to be known. But I kind of wondered, why is it that you wish that aliens existed? Or conversely, is it that you are afraid of them and certain that they exist? Sorry if this is a bit off-topic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant Hatch View Post
    Only if you can categorically prove they Don't exist. Otherwise it's an exercise which could possibly be of interest IF and when they ARE proven to exist. Think of it as a tool kit that we can refer to afterwards when trying to get a handle on the new paradigm.
    It is more an exercise is justifying belief, whatever the evidence. Sorry if seems harsh but now you are postulating aliens with a non-intervention policy that has a "probe humans, hurt cows" exemption, possibly another set with a policy that limits intervention specifically to nuclear weapons... basically classic epicycles or overfitting. You can ignore making your hypotheses falsifiable by adding in more complexity to explain the failed tests. I don't see the value, to be honest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant Hatch View Post
    Only if you can categorically prove they Don't exist. Otherwise it's an exercise which could possibly be of interest IF and when they ARE proven to exist. Think of it as a tool kit that we can refer to afterwards when trying to get a handle on the new paradigm.
    No, I don't have to prove they don't exist, particularly since that is impossible. Whatever I might offer as evidence of their nonexistence, you will wave away with speculation on the ability of these aliens to defeat that detection method.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    It seems like fairly idle speculation to me, but I don't have any problem with idle speculation.
    I don't have a problem with idle speculation, but it doesn't seem to be idle speculation to me.

    By hypothesizing that some magical aliens are going to prevent nuclear war, or save species from extinction, or otherwise save the planet, we are relieving ourselves of that responsibility. We made these messes; no aliens or angels or Earth Mother is going to clean them up; it is all on us.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swift View Post


    I don't have a problem with idle speculation, but it doesn't seem to be idle speculation to me.

    By hypothesizing that some magical aliens are going to prevent nuclear war, or save species from extinction, or otherwise save the planet, we are relieving ourselves of that responsibility. We made these messes; no aliens or angels or Earth Mother is going to clean them up; it is all on us.
    In as far as it’s used in that way, I completely agree. If people are going to use the existence of aliens as a way to avoid responsibility, I agree that it’s a bad thing.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Swift View Post
    By hypothesizing that some magical aliens are going to prevent nuclear war, or save species from extinction, or otherwise save the planet, we are relieving ourselves of that responsibility. We made these messes; no aliens or angels or Earth Mother is going to clean them up; it is all on us.
    As I said earlier, I'd much rather talk about humans who have done things that prevented war or done great work in conservation or similar. Attributing things to aliens not only relieves us of responsibility but deprives us of credit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gillianren View Post
    As I said earlier, I'd much rather talk about humans who have done things that prevented war or done great work in conservation or similar. Attributing things to aliens not only relieves us of responsibility but deprives us of credit.
    Yes
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  22. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    It seems like fairly idle speculation to me, but I don't have any problem with idle speculation. What I wonder is, it seems that you want to believe that they exist (because you are always making up more possibilities for why they might). Personally I also basically wish that they did, simply because it would be an interesting thing to know, and to find out how life might exist differently from what we know. And I don't really worry very much about ETs being aggressive, because essentially I believe that FTL travel is not possible (the reason being that if it did, I think there would be evidence of it all around). So I think that if there were other life forms, I don't think there would really be interactions, so it would be safe to be known. But I kind of wondered, why is it that you wish that aliens existed? Or conversely, is it that you are afraid of them and certain that they exist? Sorry if this is a bit off-topic.
    I disagree about FTL. I believe there IS a way to travel between the stars more rapidly.... In which case I am both intrigued AND frightened. I wish Aliens exist because it makes things WAY more interesting. I am also a bit frightened that they might not ALL be friendly and may have an agenda which is not beneficial to us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swift View Post
    No, I don't have to prove they don't exist, particularly since that is impossible. Whatever I might offer as evidence of their nonexistence, you will wave away with speculation on the ability of these aliens to defeat that detection method.


    I don't have a problem with idle speculation, but it doesn't seem to be idle speculation to me.

    By hypothesizing that some magical aliens are going to prevent nuclear war, or save species from extinction, or otherwise save the planet, we are relieving ourselves of that responsibility. We made these messes; no aliens or angels or Earth Mother is going to clean them up; it is all on us.
    As it should be. Just saying we are not always perfect and occasionally misstep, especially our "leaders" when many are not particulary enlightened and often seem to worry more about their short term objectives than mankind or our future in general. Left to them I am rather pessimistic. Obviously we as a race need to create a different leadership paradigm that is more forward looking , cooperative and stabile. The direction of our present civilization is Unsustainable. Perhaps that is the reason our written history only goes back a few thousand years. We've been thru this before....

    Just speculating, but I prefer to imagine that our short sightedness, apparent aggressiveness and war mongering are externally driven by a "Bad Alien and/or stupid greedy selfish Human Leaders" agenda and that the "Good Aliens" will intercede given the co-opting interference of the "Bad" ones with humankind in general. In other words, They feel that humankind and the rest of the planet as a whole does not deserve to perish because of a few bad apples... be they human or otherwise.
    Last edited by Grant Hatch; 2018-Apr-20 at 04:17 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    The "saving us from nuclear destruction" trope has been a feature of UFO encounters ever since Adamski.
    The various motivations offered for why the Space Brothers might be in a tizz about our nuclear weapons have never quite made sense, and have always reflected a rather human-centric viewpoint. Almost as if humans had invented them.

    Grant Hutchison
    I think the shoe is on the other foot, why WOULDNT the ET's worry about our ability to render the planet a radioactive wasteland. We are certainly Not the only interesting life form here...I know I'm worried! Makes perfect sense that they are "demonstrating" their ability to stop us from doing it....I Hope. "Space brothers" indeed.......I know I don't feel all warm and fuzzy....
    Last edited by Grant Hatch; 2021-Jun-06 at 03:14 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swift View Post
    No, I don't have to prove they don't exist, particularly since that is impossible. Whatever I might offer as evidence of their nonexistence, you will wave away with speculation on the ability of these aliens to defeat that detection method.


    I don't have a problem with idle speculation, but it doesn't seem to be idle speculation to me.

    By hypothesizing that some magical aliens are going to prevent nuclear war, or save species from extinction, or otherwise save the planet, we are relieving ourselves of that responsibility. We made these messes; no aliens or angels or Earth Mother is going to clean them up; it is all on us.
    As it should be, we Should be responsible and I hope we are.....I just worry about that military mind set....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant Hatch View Post
    I think the shoe is on the other foot, why WOULDNT the ET's worry about our ability to render the planet a radioactive wasteland. We are certainly Not the only interesting life form here...I know I'm worried! Makes perfect sense that they are "demonstrating" their ability to stop us from doing it....I Hope. "Space brothers" indeed.......I know I don't feel all warm and fuzzy....
    A riposte three years in the making, I see.
    But yes, that's one of the arguments that never quite make sense. It's just a mutation of the "human exceptionalism" of Adamski into a "terran exceptionalism" that sits more comfortably with modern environmental concerns.

    Grant Hutchison

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    Wrong thread. Deleted
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant Hatch View Post
    I think the shoe is on the other foot, why WOULDNT the ET's worry about our ability to render the planet a radioactive wasteland.
    I just wanted to point out that the shoe can be on both feet really.

    Saying “I don’t think we can assume A” doesn’t mean the same as “I think we can assume not-A.” It can include “We can neither assume A nor not-A.” And in this case that would also be my position that we cannot assume they would care but also can’t assume they wouldn’t care.


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    So intelligent aliens would have to exist, possess interstellar travel, have come here undetected, remained undetected up until now, care whether we (or our planet's life) live or die, and have a means of remotely operating our most secure weapons technology.

    Any one of these things not being true voids the scenario.

    The easiest and simplest way to save us from our destructive tendencies is to show themselves to us publicly and warn us they foresee a bad end for us, and to cut it out. They could then offer any number of powerful incentives to collective humanity to change our ways. These hypothetical aliens hypothetically did not do that, they instead hypothetically carry out a much more complex and unreliable manipulative plot straight out of a B movie.
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