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Thread: UFO's and Nukes, saved from ourselves?

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by KaiYeves View Post
    Is this self-necromancy?
    Thread necromancy, self or otherwise, is not against the rules.
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    One thing about being "saved" by an external force is, it robs us of agency. We lose any benefit from saving ourselves, thus voiding lessons learned from our close shave with our self destructive tendencies.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

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    I like the idea of agency and external intelligences respecting our agency. Of course total destruction and the post annihilation memo that says “told you so!” Or “I could have told you if you had asked’ is not much help. I do believe in agency (but cannot prove we have it, ) and unfortunately there is a corollary that others have agency too.

    It also occurs to me that if we are being monitored there might be two or more monitors with opposed views. This is nicely explored in Damien Ouspenski’s book of short stories, ” talks with a Demon” in those stories, we have demons who try to save us by do not understand our psychology, and demons who play with fate concepts for their amusement or are they trying to obey cosmic rules?
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    Quote Originally Posted by profloater View Post
    I like the idea of agency and external intelligences respecting our agency. Of course total destruction and the post annihilation memo that says “told you so!” Or “I could have told you if you had asked’ is not much help. I do believe in agency (but cannot prove we have it, ) and unfortunately there is a corollary that others have agency too.
    And there's no sign of others. So we have to start with the assumption that we survived on our own efforts. An attitude of "aliens/angels took care of that for us" is akin to saying, we couldn't make it on our own, and I'm vehemently opposed to that viewpoint.

    Same with Ancient Aliens building the pyramids; we humans can stack blocks of stone. The engineering involved is a major human achievement. Why not give credit where credit is due?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    And there's no sign of others. So we have to start with the assumption that we survived on our own efforts. An attitude of "aliens/angels took care of that for us" is akin to saying, we couldn't make it on our own, and I'm vehemently opposed to that viewpoint.

    Same with Ancient Aliens building the pyramids; we humans can stack blocks of stone. The engineering involved is a major human achievement. Why not give credit where credit is due?
    Absolutely! If aliens are unlikely now that we know more about planets, stars and stuff, they were unlikely then too. We have been through a renaissance/ enlightenment that cast our ancestors as brutal cave men. Maybe the catastrophes of the last ice age did bring us low, but humans survived. But by others I did not mean aliens, just others of us with agency. So saved from ourselves is a generous spirit when saved from the agency of other people is a pressing concern.
    sicut vis videre esto
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    Quote Originally Posted by profloater View Post
    But by others I did not mean aliens, just others of us with agency. So saved from ourselves is a generous spirit when saved from the agency of other people is a pressing concern.
    I'm not sure I understand this; saved from ourselves is also, saved by ourselves. We were humans acting on humans.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    So intelligent aliens would have to exist, possess interstellar travel, have come here undetected, remained undetected up until now, care whether we (or our planet's life) live or die, and have a means of remotely operating our most secure weapons technology.

    Any one of these things not being true voids the scenario.

    The easiest and simplest way to save us from our destructive tendencies is to show themselves to us publicly and warn us they foresee a bad end for us, and to cut it out. They could then offer any number of powerful incentives to collective humanity to change our ways. These hypothetical aliens hypothetically did not do that, they instead hypothetically carry out a much more complex and unreliable manipulative plot straight out of a B movie.
    Truman had a meeting with a group of aliens (according to leaked memos and film footage) who did just that! Told us they would give us certain technology if we would stop with the nuclear thing. Obviously it didn't work.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant Hatch View Post
    Truman had a meeting with a group of aliens (according to leaked memos and film footage) who did just that! Told us they would give us certain technology if we would stop with the nuclear thing. Obviously it didn't work.
    So you’ve seen these alleged memos and film footage? Where are they? Or did you just see a claim there were such things?

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    Wasn't that Eisenhower? Or is this a different secret negotiation between aliens and a US president? And wasn't it permission to carry out alien abductions in exchange for alien tech?
    It would be so-o-o much easier if everyone just agreed on which deal was made with which president.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Van Rijn View Post
    So you’ve seen these alleged memos and film footage? Where are they? Or did you just see a claim there were such things?
    It was Eisenhower, sorry. Been years since I read about this and watched the film footage. I have also conflated the results since there were apparently two diff alien races and offers involved. The initial offer of tech for stopping the nuclear thing was rejected. the second offer of tech? for the right to experiment on cows and abduct the occasional human was accepted. the third link below put together by "BillsChannel" and the 4rth clip within it filmed in 1961 was allegedly a meeting with the military and resulted in a "revised treaty" due to it being secretly filmed which was not allowed under the existing treaty. I found the original footage back in 2011 or 12 shortly after it came out but it seems harder to find it stand alone now....Perhaps typing in "Ivan alien footage"? OK, You can still find a couple clips posted on youtube 10 years ago under "Ivan0135". They are only about a minute long each and I added them below.
    I will add more links if any interest develops.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...nt-claims.html

    https://nationalufocenter.com/blog/2...er-met-aliens/

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRCO9GAx3Sg

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6TLGkrfNKI

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsQCXN4o4Ps
    Last edited by Grant Hatch; 2021-Jul-27 at 02:36 AM.
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    I didn't see any footage that showed Eisenhower...

    And also, I wonder if the aliens realized that the US was not the only country working on nuclear weapons (in fact the USSR carried out their first test in 1949). So they'd have to do a bunch of secret negotiations with different countries...
    As above, so below

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant Hatch View Post
    It was Eisenhower, sorry. Been years since I read about this and watched the film footage. I have also conflated the results since there were apparently two diff alien races and offers involved. The initial offer of tech for stopping the nuclear thing was rejected. the second offer of tech? for the right to experiment on cows and abduct the occasional human was accepted. the third link below put together by "BillsChannel" and the 4rth clip within it filmed in 1961 was allegedly a meeting with the military and resulted in a "revised treaty" due to it being secretly filmed which was not allowed under the existing treaty. I found the original footage back in 2011 or 12 shortly after it came out but it seems harder to find it stand alone now....Perhaps typing in "Ivan alien footage"? OK, You can still find a couple clips posted on youtube 10 years ago under "Ivan0135". They are only about a minute long each and I added them below.
    I will add more links if any interest develops.
    Is there some reason these claims and the big head video should be taken seriously? A giant head on a small body is (if not a prosthetic) itself implausible.

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    I only watched the last two videos. Are you kidding? Are these a joke? That was supposed to have been filmed in 1961? They look like something that was filmed for a newsreel in 1917. Did Edison himself film them? I've seen kids with Super8 movie cameras do better in their backyards.

    Do you have any actual evidence for anything you claimed, besides a link to a UFO blog, a Daily Mail click-bait, and these ridiculous videos? And yes, that is a serious question.
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    Metabunk had some interesting discussion on these so-called "Skinny Bob" videos.
    To me the most striking point raised (if correct, I can't confirm) is that the "film grain and scratches" come from an identifiable modern stock overlay, used to make modern film look like very old film (and also, incidentally, to obscure infelicities in puppetry/CGI effects). Otherwise, it's the Muppet Show.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    Otherwise, it's the Muppet Show.
    The Muppet Show was much better, in just about every way.
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    The "Mirage Men" interpretation is, of course, that the modern stock film-grain overlay was superimposed deliberately on real high-quality original film, either to obscure important detail or to maintain deniability, or just to mess with people's heads. The meta-Mirage-Men interpretation is that it's typical of this sort of hoax that these confusing layers of interpretation are present (witness the whole MJ-12 farrago, for instance).

    Anyway, I enjoyed it more than the Muppet Show--it has a more compelling narrative and more endearing characters, IMHO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    I didn't see any footage that showed Eisenhower...

    And also, I wonder if the aliens realized that the US was not the only country working on nuclear weapons (in fact the USSR carried out their first test in 1949). So they'd have to do a bunch of secret negotiations with different countries...
    A UFO claim that fails to understand geopolitics? [monocle pop]
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    Apparently these technologically vastly superior aliens could not detect that they were being secretly filmed with '60's technology? Amateurs.

    By the way, this is what 1961 American spy (well, hidden at least) camera footage really looked like:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgO43TlLSB8

    Notice how it doesn't have the constant auto focus issues that the Secret Alien Meeting footage has. Mainly because they didn't have auto focus.
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    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    Metabunk had some interesting discussion on these so-called "Skinny Bob" videos.
    To me the most striking point raised (if correct, I can't confirm) is that the "film grain and scratches" come from an identifiable modern stock overlay, used to make modern film look like very old film (and also, incidentally, to obscure infelicities in puppetry/CGI effects). Otherwise, it's the Muppet Show.

    Grant Hutchison
    The video that you can hear the projector running in is obviously a modern capture of purportedly older film footage playing. I don't believe whoever made it was trying to deceive anyone as far as that goes or the sound would have been left out. Also, according to the text overlay "Ivan" was urged/allowed to upload more clips (7) than he did? At least that's how I took it. Yet only four? very short clips were uploaded. Why? If it was all faked then that makes perfect sense but if it was real footage one has to wonder why "Ivan" used only a small portion of the allowed material. The uploads did not happen in one day, perhaps something changed in the situation and he was stopped from uploading any more.
    Last edited by Grant Hatch; 2021-Jul-27 at 05:03 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant Hatch View Post
    The video that you can hear the projector running in is obviously a modern capture of purportedly older film footage playing. I don't believe whoever made it was trying to deceive anyone as far as that goes or the sound would have been left out.
    Oh, come on. The author processed the movie with modern software to look like something out of the 1920s, despite claiming it originated in the 1960s. You don't think it's probable that the projector soundtrack was also added to "enhance" the ambience, while (accidentally or deliberately) undermining the claimed origin?
    No amount of special pleading makes this anything other than a film student project.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    I didn't see any footage that showed Eisenhower...

    And also, I wonder if the aliens realized that the US was not the only country working on nuclear weapons (in fact the USSR carried out their first test in 1949). So they'd have to do a bunch of secret negotiations with different countries...
    And they supposedly did.... Actually, There are those in the UFO community who believe this footage is in fact Russian. I don't know. What is that symbol/coat of arms? at the beginning of the clip in the third link? It has been excised in the last two links. The coat of arms, if that is what it is, was in the first clip "Ivan" uploaded.

    No, sorry, I have found no footage showing Eisenhower meeting with aliens. But, here is a link to testimonials from former Gov members attesting to the meeting(s).

    The second link is to an interview found in the National Archives DOD relating to Roswell. I add it only to add a little credibility to this subject matter. There are many more and perhaps better ones to be found in the National Archives and other sites. This one was just handy while looking for a link to the Eisenhower "meeting" with Aliens. Yes, surprisingly enough I have found a plethora of material at The National Archives site lending credence tp the UFO hypothesis! Many interviews and testimonials if you search diligently or find a link elsewhere...

    https://youtu.be/2O_c_upHuKY

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DA-g94Ro1I
    Last edited by Grant Hatch; 2021-Jul-27 at 06:01 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant Hatch View Post
    And they did.... Actually, There are those in the UFO community who believe this footage is in fact Russian. What is that symbol/coat of arms? at the beginning of the clip in the third link? It has been excised in the last two links. The coat of arms, if that is what it is, was in the first clip "Ivan" uploaded.
    It's a KGB badge. Looks like the sort you sew on a uniform. I have one (from the Border Guards) in a desk drawer upstairs--you could buy them cheaply at air displays in the UK during the 90s.
    The English-as-a-second language captioning (in a modern typeface) is also part of the "Maybe it's Russian!" ambience. Maybe it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant Hatch View Post
    It was Eisenhower, sorry. Been years since I read about this and watched the film footage. I have also conflated the results since there were apparently two diff alien races and offers involved. The initial offer of tech for stopping the nuclear thing was rejected. the second offer of tech? for the right to experiment on cows and abduct the occasional human was accepted. the third link below put together by "BillsChannel" and the 4rth clip within it filmed in 1961 was allegedly a meeting with the military and resulted in a "revised treaty" due to it being secretly filmed which was not allowed under the existing treaty. I found the original footage back in 2011 or 12 shortly after it came out but it seems harder to find it stand alone now....Perhaps typing in "Ivan alien footage"? OK, You can still find a couple clips posted on youtube 10 years ago under "Ivan0135". They are only about a minute long each and I added them below.
    I will add more links if any interest develops.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...nt-claims.html

    https://nationalufocenter.com/blog/2...er-met-aliens/

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRCO9GAx3Sg

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6TLGkrfNKI

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsQCXN4o4Ps
    Grant, when the claims get this outlandish I really have to wonder to what extent this is something you really believe and to what extent it’s a put-on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant Hatch View Post
    The second link is to an interview found in the National Archives DOD relating to Roswell. I add it only to add a little credibility to this subject matter.
    Glenn Dennis adds credibility? You're joking, surely.

    Grant Hutchison
    Last edited by grant hutchison; 2021-Jul-28 at 02:11 AM. Reason: Link to critique of the "DoD" Glenn Dennis interview
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    Quote Originally Posted by KaiYeves View Post
    Grant, when the claims get this outlandish I really have to wonder to what extent this is something you really believe and to what extent it’s a put-on.
    Oh I believe something is going on! No ** here. I had an experience 50 years ago + or - that I take very seriously. If it's not extraterrestrials then somebody is way way ahead of us that lives on this planet and/or within the solar system. Sorry, I am 100% sure of it. Get on board or get out of the way....cause this is just going to get more and more interesting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant Hatch View Post
    Oh I believe something is going on! No ** here. I had an experience 50 years ago + or - that I take very seriously. If it's not extraterrestrials then somebody is way way ahead of us that lives on this planet and/or within the solar system. Sorry, I am 100% sure of it.
    Ok, you have your belief. The thing is, though, you keep bringing up items where it is clear that you have applied no skepticism whatsoever. I’ve pointed out items before where I spent just a few minutes doing a web search and found big problems with claims you posted that you seem to take seriously. Now we have this stuff that looks so outlandish on the face of it that it suggests you might just be putting us on. And again, a bit of research turns up issues turned up by people who looked into it seriously.

    If you are serious, do you really think that helps your message? Do you just not care?

    Get on board or get out of the way....cause this is just going to get more and more interesting.
    More interesting? When does it start getting interesting? As has been pointed out before, I’ve been hearing things like that about this subject since I was a kid. The latest were the revelations that were supposed to come out of the recent DoD UAP report and it was no big deal. It isn’t getting more interesting, it never goes anywhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant Hatch View Post
    Oh I believe something is going on! No ** here. I had an experience 50 years ago + or - that I take very seriously. If it's not extraterrestrials then somebody is way way ahead of us that lives on this planet and/or within the solar system. Sorry, I am 100% sure of it. Get on board or get out of the way....cause this is just going to get more and more interesting.
    If you don't mind my asking, what about your subjective experience led you to draw the conclusion that the explanation was a US government cover up of ETI contact?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant Hatch View Post
    Oh I believe something is going on! No ** here. I had an experience 50 years ago + or - that I take very seriously. If it's not extraterrestrials then somebody is way way ahead of us that lives on this planet and/or within the solar system. Sorry, I am 100% sure of it. Get on board or get out of the way....cause this is just going to get more and more interesting.
    You're just not helping your case by posting supposedly "credible" links to discredited sources like Glenn Dennis, then. A tiny amount of research (or even a little attention to the setting and format) would have revealed that what is labelled a Department of Defense video on YouTube is nothing of the sort--it's a recording made by UFOlogists Kevin Randle, Mark Wolf (not to be confused with Michael Wolf, please) and Don Schmitt, who have subsequently detected enough misinformation in Dennis's testimony to render it unreliable at best.
    No matter how impressive your original personal experience was, that's no reason to turn off your critical faculties entirely.

    Grant Hutchison
    Last edited by grant hutchison; 2021-Jul-28 at 12:02 PM. Reason: bracketed
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    Those are some very human like aliens. Very human in fact. Eyes, ears, fingers, a brain, just the right height for a human, talk about coincidence! We can't even communicate with plants or dolphins, who would have thought another human like race with the exact same evolutionary steps down to DNA, eyes, fingers, penises, etc.. would pop up so conveniently? Surely this must mean it's real and not fake!

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    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    You're just not helping your case by posting supposedly "credible" links to discredited sources like Glenn Dennis, then. A tiny amount of research (or even a little attention to the setting and format) would have revealed that what is labelled a Department of Defense video on YouTube is nothing of the sort--it's a recording made by UFOlogists Kevin Randle, Mark Wolf (not to be confused with Michael Wolf, please) and Don Schmitt, who have subsequently detected enough misinformation in Dennis's testimony to render it unreliable at best.
    No matter how impressive your original personal experience was, that's no reason to turn off your critical faculties entirely.

    Grant Hutchison
    To the several responses,
    You are correct in that I should not turn off my critical faculties. Yes, there are a lot of unreliable and frankly crazy testimonials out there. No I don't spend the time I should winnowing out the junk from the real.

    But there is a reality here that includes "something" with a tech signature not of our manufacture. Why do YOU think governments around the world are releasing this stuff now? I think it's because the old guard is mostly dead and the fallout won't matter as much. Lots of mayhem, threats and outright murder(opinion) keeping the secret over the years..... Also the military industrial complex will use it to get more funding. I have spent countless hours over the years following this subject since I know it to have a basis in reality. I have a file on my desktop I call "proof". I should probably be pulling links out of that file instead of the few paltry links I post here in a heated rush..... Perhaps I will
    Last edited by Grant Hatch; 2021-Jul-28 at 06:34 PM.
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