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Thread: UFO Sightings Down?

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Van Rijn View Post
    And it's sad really: When I was young, I took the ET visitation hypothesis pretty seriously, and never have been against careful UFO research, but my impression is that what you typically see are the clowns, because the serious work just doesn't result in anything newsworthy. Accordingly, my skepticism increased substantially over the years.
    That's a good point actually. I think a lot of UFO enthusiasts assume that people who question them somehow don't want UFOs to exist, when in reality I think there are a lot of people like me (and I guess you as well) who really are interested in whether they exist, and would be happy if they did, but just are not convinced by the evidence at all.
    As above, so below

  2. #62
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    Then there is the ridicule factor. As a kid, I remember a friend of the family who was an airliine pilot and flew often from Los Angeles to Hawaii told us he was once accompanied by an object on a night flight, but would never have reported it, because of fear he would lose his job.
    Strange situation: on the one hand, high interest, on the other hand, ridicule. Lots of odd balls in the field, in any case. This taints testimony apriori.

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    At night the stars put on a show for free (Carole King)

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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by gzhpcu View Post
    These seem to have a good background:

    or do you disagree?
    Disagree because I checked their areas of expertise.

    You surely understand that having a masters or PhD in a particular subject necessarily narrows your expertise by it's very nature.

    It is not a licence to claim to know everything about everything. For example, would you allow someone with a Phd in English Literature perform open heart surgery on you? Of course not.

    Or do you disagree?

  5. #65
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    So with that said, let's move right along to the first guy in your list...Jim Simivan. Claims to have been some form of agent for the CIA. Could be true if it was concealed but I don't buy it without evidence and there isn't any.

    How about his academic credentials? Well, lo and behold, he has a BA in English Literature and an MA in English Lit. Yes, that really qualifies him as an expert on cosmology, astrophysics, astrobiology and HOLY COW E.T. HIMSELF.

    Don't believe me? Here he is in his own words.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=up81L9OrvMw

    So he is NOT qualified to spout any expertise on the topics at hand.

    Shall we move on?

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    That's a good point actually. I think a lot of UFO enthusiasts assume that people who question them somehow don't want UFOs to exist, when in reality I think there are a lot of people like me (and I guess you as well) who really are interested in whether they exist, and would be happy if they did, but just are not convinced by the evidence at all.
    It's a trope among believers that if UFOs were proven to be ET then our entire edifice of science and civilisation would dissolve into chaos and oblivion in a saturnalian orgy of self destruction because we all couldn't handle the "troof".

    I'm with you. If any actual aliens turned up and said "Hi", I would be as excited as a teen at a justin bieber concert. However, the aliens seem conspicuous by their abscence. The conceit that we would all fall apart and governments would dissolve in utter chaos is exactly that. A conceit.

    The late Douglas Adams Vogons spring to mind.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abaddon View Post
    It's a trope among believers that if UFOs were proven to be ET then our entire edifice of science and civilisation would dissolve into chaos and oblivion in a saturnalian orgy of self destruction because we all couldn't handle the "troof".
    I too have heard that argument for why The Government is suppressing the "truth" about UFOs and ETIs and I find equally absurd. People have been reading stories and see movies about aliens for about 100 years. I think the majority of people actually expect that there are intelligent aliens out in the universe, and if anything, would be surprised by their absence, not their appearance.
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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swift View Post
    I too have heard that argument for why The Government is suppressing the "truth" about UFOs and ETIs and I find equally absurd. People have been reading stories and see movies about aliens for about 100 years. I think the majority of people actually expect that there are intelligent aliens out in the universe, and if anything, would be surprised by their absence, not their appearance.
    Ha. It's so commonplace that if the aliens did rock up, I suspect they would be rather puzzled by peoples various expectations of them. Thank you Steven Spielberg. Or perhaps Ridley Scott.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abaddon View Post
    So with that said, let's move right along to the first guy in your list...Jim Simivan. Claims to have been some form of agent for the CIA. Could be true if it was concealed but I don't buy it without evidence and there isn't any.
    Are you saying there's an argument he didn't work for the CIA at all, or are you saying his claims about what he did at the CIA are unsupported?

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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Van Rijn View Post
    Are you saying there's an argument he didn't work for the CIA at all, or are you saying his claims about what he did at the CIA are unsupported?
    I was going to say also that there is a certain mystique I guess about working for the CIA but in reality it's a government agency and like other agencies I am sure there are a lot of people working there who are basically administrators or bureaucrats managing groups and doing analysis, and I don't think that because you worked for the CIA gives you any special insights into UFOs, unless you happened to be working in a group that was analyzing that...
    As above, so below

  11. #71
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    So looking at these guys . . . wow.

    From an earlier quote:

    (9) A biochemist with 28 years of research experience in the cell and molecular biology fields (and who also served as Deputy Administrator of a US government funded threat assessment program focused on advanced aerospace technology). - Dr. Colm Kelleher
    And looking him up brings up references to the Skinwalker ranch saga. He wrote a book about supposed weird stuff at a ranch. See here for instance:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skinwalker_Ranch

    Claims about the ranch first appeared in the Salt Lake City, Utah Deseret News,[1] and later in the alternative weekly Las Vegas Mercury as a series of articles by journalist George Knapp. These early stories detailed the claims of a family that had recently purchased and occupied the property only to experience an array of inexplicable and frightening events.

    Colm Kelleher and co-author George Knapp subsequently authored a book in which they describe the ranch being acquired by the National Institute for Discovery Science (NIDSci) to study anecdotal sightings of UFOs, bigfoot-like creatures, crop circles, glowing orbs and poltergeist activity reported by its former owners.
    Uh, huh. And as far as I can see, there wasn't actually any good evidence that anything important happened there. And notice NIDSci is involved. About that:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation...covery_Science

    The National Institute for Discovery Science (NIDSci) was a privately financed research organization based in Las Vegas, Nevada, USA, and operated from 1995 to 2004. It was founded in 1995 by real-estate developer Robert Bigelow, who set it up to research and advance serious study of various fringe science, and paranormal topics, most notably ufology.[1] Deputy Administrator Colm Kelleher was quoted as saying the organization was not designed to study UFOs only. "We don't study aliens, we study anomalies. They're the same thing in a lot of people's minds, but not in our minds."[2] NIDSci was disbanded in October 2004.
    And Robert Bigalow? See for instance here:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanc...cation_Program

    Initiated by then U.S. Senator Harry Reid (D-Nevada)[8] to study unexplained aerial phenomena at the urging of Reid's friend, Nevada businessman and governmental contractor Robert Bigelow,[9] and with support from the late Senators Ted Stevens (R-Alaska) and Daniel Inouye (D-Hawaii), the program began in the Defense Intelligence Agency in 2007 and ended after five years, with a budget of $22 million spread out over five years
    So some of the connections between these people are becoming clearer to me, and I'm not seeing more reason to take them seriously.

    And apparently Steve Justice thinks new physics can be developed by looking at UFO images. Pretty much everyone here I look up, appears, well, not credible.

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  12. #72
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    Speaking as an English major, I would like to point out that it is entirely possible to have expertise beyond your degree, if you put in the work outside formal institutions. However, that also means your degree becomes irrelevant!
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  13. #73
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    Since the ufo field does not exist, what kind of expertise is relevant here?

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Van Rijn View Post
    Are you saying there's an argument he didn't work for the CIA at all, or are you saying his claims about what he did at the CIA are unsupported?
    There is no evidence either way outside of his claim, so he may or may not have done so. The point is he has no expertise in any even vaguely related area. Any opinion he might venture is a layman's opinion, nothing more than that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gzhpcu View Post
    Since the ufo field does not exist, what kind of expertise is relevant here?
    What about working for SETI? It's scientists actively searching for aliens, so I would think if anyone would be experts on this subject it would be them.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave241 View Post
    What about working for SETI? It's scientists actively searching for aliens, so I would think if anyone would be experts on this subject it would be them.
    I don't really think that's so relevant, because they are focused on analyzing signals. But on the other hand, I think it would be relevant, just because they are used to analyzing something. In that sense, maybe somebody with a background in investigations, or an investigative journalist, might be relevant, or any researcher in general. I think you would want to have a team with people in expertise in image analysis, psychology, and a bunch of stuff like that.
    As above, so below

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    I don't really think that's so relevant, because they are focused on analyzing signals. But on the other hand, I think it would be relevant, just because they are used to analyzing something. In that sense, maybe somebody with a background in investigations, or an investigative journalist, might be relevant, or any researcher in general. I think you would want to have a team with people in expertise in image analysis, psychology, and a bunch of stuff like that.
    Well, the way I am thinking of this is lets say that today it's announced that aliens have been visiting Earth and these 100-ish UFO sightings have been confirmed to be actual alien spacecraft. You don't think that SETI would be front and center to answer questions like "How come you didn't know about this?", "Did you know about this?", "Why didn't you detect any sort of technological signal from their activities?", "Do you know where their home world is?", and so on. If they would be expected to know something about this after the fact, then I think it's reasonable to see what they have to say about this topic now too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    I don't really think that's so relevant, because they are focused on analyzing signals.
    This isn't addressed to you specifically Jen, but I wanted to focus on this because I think it's a good point for the topic at large. This group of scientists has chosen to focus on analyzing signals as the best way to find alien life. They are not forced to do this, they could go about searching for aliens using any method they want to, including analyzing UFO photographs and interviewing witnesses. So ask yourself why aren't they doing this? Seriously, why aren't SETI scientists devoting at least a portion of their time to being UFO hunters? The only reason I can think of is because they think there is essentially zero chance they could be legitimately aliens.

    This to me says that they have concluded that there is pretty much nothing to the UFO claims and they are simply not worth their time. And these are in fact the professionals in this field. So, the professional alien hunters are devoting their time to searching for aliens FAR away from the Earth because they have concluded there are no aliens here. To me this is a pretty damning realization for the possibility of UFO's being alien life.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave241 View Post
    Well, the way I am thinking of this is lets say that today it's announced that aliens have been visiting Earth and these 100-ish UFO sightings have been confirmed to be actual alien spacecraft. You don't think that SETI would be front and center to answer questions like "How come you didn't know about this?", "Did you know about this?", "Why didn't you detect any sort of technological signal from their activities?", "Do you know where their home world is?", and so on. If they would be expected to know something about this after the fact, then I think it's reasonable to see what they have to say about this topic now too.
    I agree with you about that. I think I was addressing a slightly different issue, which is whether I would believe someone in the organization mentioned earlier because they had previously worked on SETI.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave241 View Post
    This isn't addressed to you specifically Jen, but I wanted to focus on this because I think it's a good point for the topic at large. This group of scientists has chosen to focus on analyzing signals as the best way to find alien life. They are not forced to do this, they could go about searching for aliens using any method they want to, including analyzing UFO photographs and interviewing witnesses. So ask yourself why aren't they doing this? Seriously, why aren't SETI scientists devoting at least a portion of their time to being UFO hunters? The only reason I can think of is because they think there is essentially zero chance they could be legitimately aliens.

    This to me says that they have concluded that there is pretty much nothing to the UFO claims and they are simply not worth their time. And these are in fact the professionals in this field. So, the professional alien hunters are devoting their time to searching for aliens FAR away from the Earth because they have concluded there are no aliens here. To me this is a pretty damning realization for the possibility of UFO's being alien life.
    Yes, that's a good point. They are obviously people who are wanting to find aliens, and they aren't doing it by interviewing people who think they've seen UFOs.
    As above, so below

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave241 View Post
    This isn't addressed to you specifically Jen, but I wanted to focus on this because I think it's a good point for the topic at large. This group of scientists has chosen to focus on analyzing signals as the best way to find alien life. They are not forced to do this, they could go about searching for aliens using any method they want to, including analyzing UFO photographs and interviewing witnesses. So ask yourself why aren't they doing this? Seriously, why aren't SETI scientists devoting at least a portion of their time to being UFO hunters? The only reason I can think of is because they think there is essentially zero chance they could be legitimately aliens.
    I think it might be a little more subtle than that. An argument for radio SETI specifically is that that radio is easier than spacecraft. A civilization of our level could send detectable signals with large radio telescopes (like Arecibo) today. Though there also have been some SETI searches for megastructures and even limited searches for Bracewell probes.

    But I think the other thing about UFOs as alien spaceships is that a proper scientific validation would require some really solid evidence - the equivalent of the flying saucer landing at some very public place (some combination of solid evidence, or an actual artifact). Essentially, if it were to happen it would have to be very obvious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abaddon View Post
    There is no evidence either way outside of his claim, so he may or may not have done so. The point is he has no expertise in any even vaguely related area. Any opinion he might venture is a layman's opinion, nothing more than that.
    The main reason I was asking is that I've seen statements at major publications that he worked for the CIA (with an award mentioned) and I didn't see any claims that he didn't work for the CIA. I agree that in itself isn't important, I was just curious if they were caught saying a falsehood or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gzhpcu View Post
    Since the ufo field does not exist, what kind of expertise is relevant here?
    For myself, I would say that the "ufo field" does exist, in that there has been various valid research on unidentified flying objects or other unidentified phenomena. There has also been a lot of nonsense and unsupported claims.

    In terms of expertise, if eye witness reports are being considered, I'd think one very important area of expertise would be to understand how people perceive things and the limitations of such reports. For instance, people often make assumptions beyond the evidence and interviewers often take the assumptions at face value.

    So for example, somebody sees three lights in the night sky, and they assume they are seeing a "black triangle" craft, then further assume how fast it's moving based on their belief about the distance of the "craft." Then that is taken at face value by someone reporting on it, and they go on to make more assumptions based on the claim (like: must be stealthy to avoid detection, must have unknown propulsion, etc.).

    I would expect an interviewer with some expertise to know that without other sources of evidence, the most they can say is that someone probably saw three lights in the sky.

    And then we get into other sources of claimed evidence, where expertise is also needed. For instance, photographs are often misinterpreted. Radar and infrared have their own issues.

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  22. #82
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    What is the feeling regarding Peter A. Sturrock?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_A._Sturrock

  23. #83
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    Well, the way I am thinking of this is lets say that today it's announced that aliens have been visiting Earth and these 100-ish UFO sightings have been confirmed to be actual alien spacecraft. You don't think that SETI would be front and center to answer questions like "How come you didn't know about this?", "Did you know about this?", "Why didn't you detect any sort of technological signal from their activities?", "Do you know where their home world is?", and so on.
    lets say that today it's announced that aliens have been visiting Earth
    This part above may be the answer, whoever made this "announcement" which was convincing enough to prove ET's presence should have all the answers, well, some of them anyways, not SETI which at this point would become obsolete.

  24. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by gzhpcu View Post
    What is the feeling regarding Peter A. Sturrock?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_A._Sturrock
    Why? What does he have to say about the number of UFO sightings going down?
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  25. #85
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    There was a related thread a while back where it was speculated that the advent of drones (military, corporate & public) would cause an increase ufo sightings. Maybe, just "maybe", since people know of drones being flown around in the skies everywhere now when they see something that looks peculiar flying around they just right it off as a drone and it's not reported.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spacedude View Post
    There was a related thread a while back where it was speculated that the advent of drones (military, corporate & public) would cause an increase ufo sightings. Maybe, just "maybe", since people know of drones being flown around in the skies everywhere now when they see something that looks peculiar flying around they just right it off as a drone and it's not reported.
    I think it kind of makes sense that when drones were first being developed, you could have a temporary uptick in UFO sightings because people were seeing something they didn't understand, but now that they've become more well-known, there is a decrease both because people correctly identify drones and also assume that they are seeing a drone when they see something that might well be something different.
    As above, so below

  27. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by slang View Post
    Why? What does he have to say about the number of UFO sightings going down?
    This is just a question regarding qualifications of the members of the Delonge group. Would his profile be adequate.
    Last edited by gzhpcu; 2019-Jun-02 at 10:30 AM. Reason: typo

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    Quote Originally Posted by gzhpcu View Post
    This is just a question regarding qualifications of the members of the Delonge group. Would his profile be adequate.
    Qualifications for what exactly? Is Mr. Sturrock knowledgeable in either the identification extra-terrestrial objects or of other objects that are definitely NOT extra-terrestrial? Is such a disambiguation in ability necessary or useful?

    I would seriously reckon that no one on earth could possibly claim such a qualification.

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    The only thing we know that came from beyond our star system was Oumuamua, or perhaps this other object:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/514107...oka%CA%BBawela

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    Quote Originally Posted by deadie148 View Post
    Qualifications for what exactly? Is Mr. Sturrock knowledgeable in either the identification extra-terrestrial objects or of other objects that are definitely NOT extra-terrestrial? Is such a disambiguation in ability necessary or useful?

    I would seriously reckon that no one on earth could possibly claim such a qualification.
    Obviously not. That is not the question. The question is does the person have a solid background and track record in his field? Any scientific background? Peter Sturrock iss an emeritius professor of applied physics at Stanford University, much of his career has been devoted to astrophysics, plasma physics, etc.

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