The moment an instant lasted forever, we were destined for the leading edge of eternity.
My position is a fatalist. In the long run, no matter what we do, it doesn't make a difference. Eventually resources run out, we starve, fight for resources, or succumb to infection. Our intelligence can put off the inevitable for awhile. It wouldn't take much for modern medicine to be overwhelmed when a severe pandemic takes hold.
I don't know about the current Wuhan virus. It seems plausible that it could get really bad, but like I said before, specific predictions about when and where bad microbiology will happen isn't possible. We only know that there will always be calamities and lots of them.
The moment an instant lasted forever, we were destined for the leading edge of eternity.
It has only been the last couple centuries that we have used medical care that has made much of a difference in extending human life. Vaccines, antibiotics, intravenous fluids, adequate food supply. I would never ask people to leave the modern world. I'm just saying, control over our destiny is impossible. Evolution will go, where it goes. Trying to control population is a pretend game.
The moment an instant lasted forever, we were destined for the leading edge of eternity.
Control over our destiny has limits but is far from impossible.
Do good work. —Virgil Ivan "Gus" Grissom
Elderly people with preexisting conditions almost always make up most fatalities (slightly undermining any sort of "evolution in action" argument). And I'd say it's very early days to judge the future trajectory of infection and fatality rates - the quarantined population is huge, making the pool of people to be potentially infected huge, so it's probably unrealistic to expect to see an inflection point this early, even if control measures are working well.
Grant Hutchison
I'm not sure that is correct. There is considerable evidence of medical care among ancient and prehistoric peoples (brain surgery, traditional herbal drugs); I don't know of data as to how much they extended human life, either individually or to their societies as a whole, but there is evidence that at least some of the techniques allowed the patient to live after the treatment.
I don't know what that sentence means. What aspect of a population are you saying is uncontrollable?Trying to control population is a pretend game.
That doesn't make sense. If people have always been using medicines (and performing various medical procedures) to treat illnesses and injuries, then that must have extended life. Modern science has allowed us to do this better, but it is a qualitative change, not a quantitative one.
That seems to contradict your suggestion that modern medical treatment will make the human race weak.I'm just saying, control over our destiny is impossible. Evolution will go, where it goes.
And yet, we know very well how to do that (mainly improved education and health). The average fertility rate has massively reduced, so population growth will flatten out.Trying to control population is a pretend game.
Pandemics are probably recent in evolution because we started travelling so much. The catastrophic demise in south America with the Spanish invasion, the black death,(rats did not make the long journeys) and the 1918 flu. Finally we are getting procedures of isolation and vaccines but a virus or superbug can shut down trade and travel. I wonder if this one will?
sicut vis videre esto
When we realize that patterns don't exist in the universe, they are a template that we hold to the universe to make sense of it, it all makes a lot more sense.
Originally Posted by Ken G
Established Member
The moment an instant lasted forever, we were destined for the leading edge of eternity.
I agree that we have been taking care of vulnerable people forever, but the amount of elderly and disabled is way more than has ever happened and the amount of young people is going down at the same time due to low birth rates. I do not expect the same results as the past. I say this from pessimism, not by a desire to change things. Now there are very many creative people in the world, maybe somebody will invent a cheap drug to make elderly people capable of being productive.
The moment an instant lasted forever, we were destined for the leading edge of eternity.
I think that, reliable food supply, antibiotics and vaccines, and clean surgeries are remarkably so much better healthcare than prior to their use, it was like healthcare never ever occurred, by comparison.
I also see that we now have many immune suppressed people that much of what we do is to designed around immune suppression.
You are right that the fertility rate is much lower. I'm sure that birth control has some credit here, I'm not sure that education is the cause of lower birth rate, but they are associated.
The moment an instant lasted forever, we were destined for the leading edge of eternity.
And I'd put forth that the same advancing technology that allows for better and longer lives, also allows old, ill, and infirm individuals (I'm also disabled) to be more productive and creative. Physical ability is rapidly becoming less relevant as a part of ability to produce economically.
"I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright
The moment an instant lasted forever, we were destined for the leading edge of eternity.
New CNN active news link for coronavirus.
https://www.cnn.com/asia/live-news/c...hnk/index.html
Do good work. —Virgil Ivan "Gus" Grissom
The coronavirus is giving us all extra experience for what to do when a REALLY bad virus, bacteria, etc. appears. The only (tarnished) silver living in the tornado cloud. Wonder how we would have handled the Black Death or the 1918 flu.
Do good work. —Virgil Ivan "Gus" Grissom
I agree with you except that I don't think that such behavior is unknown among other animals, though maybe just mammals. Elephants, for example, will try to revive a dying member of their group, and I think other apes do that as well. This is not to dispute your argument about human nature, which I agree with, but just to say that we are not the only species who can show such behavior.
As above, so below
To some extent I think that the fertility rate falling is related to one of the features of our species, which is that we invest a lot into individual offspring. We care for offspring for like 12 or 13 years (nowadays often more like 28 or 30!), and so we are kind of programmed to do that. And nowadays, since we see a college degree as being somewhat of a necessity for success, and because we want our offspring to be successful, we end up spending a lot of money on each one (this is true for most advanced economies) and so can't afford to have more than two children. So it seems to be an individual choice that everybody is making.
As above, so below
When I say population control is a pretend game, I mean that it is futile, and trying to control births, by society is also futile. Humans can shape our world a lot, but we will eventually have resource limitations as has been forecasted since at least I have been young. Human ingenuity has put this off for awhile. Microbiology and resource limitations will eventually bring balance. I am sorry for the generations that will have to go through this. It is terrifying to think of.
The moment an instant lasted forever, we were destined for the leading edge of eternity.
Is this practice universal? What is the situation in other societies?
Judging people solely by their economic productivity is, IMO, part of why our culture has fallen into the straits it's in. There are plenty of non-material benefits to individuals, even sick ones.
And we all need help in our lives sometimes, we cannot survive without it, that's why we're social creatures in the first place; to help each other and thus raise the whole group up. Certainly we could not have accomplished all that civilization has without mutual aid.
"I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright