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Thread: Rockets need an atmosphere to propel. There's no air in space.

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave241 View Post
    That does not answer my question, but to address it anyway:

    Any university would easily have both the time and money, plus the motivation to do so as it would be a great learning tool for students.
    Any government in the world would easily have both the time and money.
    Any private company that is interested in sending something up into space would easily have the time and money.
    Any research organization would easily have the time and the money to do this.
    Also most citizens would easily have both the time and money as this is not very expensive to do and there are LARGE numbers of people with disposable income that do these sorts of do-it-yourself projects just as a hobby.

    So in sort, the majority of humans in the developed world have both the time and the money to do this. So I will repeat my question since you are now armed with the knowledge that hundreds of millions of people have the ability to perform this simple experiment in their backyard and potentially prove you correct:

    "Why do you think that nobody in the past 60 years has ever bothered to do the incredibly simple and easy experiment of making a vacuum chamber and putting a rocket inside it attached to a force gauge? Why have you personally not done this experiment?"




    Funny, I was just about to ask you to do that. Can you?
    I have proven that there is no equal an opposite reaction from gas movement due to pressure gradient force.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockethunter View Post
    I have proven that there is no equal an opposite reaction from gas movement due to pressure gradient force.
    nonsense! did you not see the balloon example earlier? have you not done that elementary experiment? Have you heard of Hero's steam engine? What nonsense this is? At least some ATMs are hard to refute with really simple experiments but yours is easy to falsify at all levels of physical explanation and experiment.
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  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockethunter View Post
    Why not prove rockets working in space using science and math?
    Such as Newton's laws?

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockethunter View Post
    Because who has the time and money? Show a legitimate one from your tube that’s not faked.
    Well there's your problem! Relying on YouTube videos for evidence of anything is bad practice.

    As is discounting the mountains of evidence for the existence of spaceflight. According to you, ALL of the millions of individuals involved in ALL the world's space programs and industries, plus millions of the world's smartest mathematicians and physicists and engineers, have been lying daily since Isaac Newton's day about something you claim is easily disproven, and yet no one has EVER spilled the beans.
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  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockethunter View Post
    I have proven that there is no equal an opposite reaction from gas movement due to pressure gradient force.
    What experiment(s) have you performed that proves there is no equal an opposite reaction from gas movement due to a pressure gradient force? How did you set up your experiment, what data was recorded and analyzed, what conclusion were drawn from the experiment(s). And let me be blunt watching a YT video does not answer my questions nor prove your OP.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by profloater View Post
    nonsense! did you not see the balloon example earlier? have you not done that elementary experiment? Have you heard of Hero's steam engine? What nonsense this is? At least some ATMs are hard to refute with really simple experiments but yours is easy to falsify at all levels of physical explanation and experiment.
    If itís so easy then falsify it. Iím waiting ....

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicolas View Post
    Such as Newton's laws?
    You’Ve misapplied Newton’s laws

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by bknight View Post
    What experiment(s) have you performed that proves there is no equal an opposite reaction from gas movement due to a pressure gradient force? How did you set up your experiment, what data was recorded and analyzed, what conclusion were drawn from the experiment(s). And let me be blunt watching a YT video does not answer my questions nor prove your OP.
    The experiments were so simple
    Anyone can do at home. It’s obvious the when wind blows on the back of your head, the air in front of you doesn’t push off your face as it moves away from you

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockethunter View Post
    The experiments were so simple
    Anyone can do at home. Itís obvious the when wind blows on the back of your head, the air in front of you doesnít push off your face as it moves away from you
    That didn't answer all my questions. I will list them again for your convenience:
    What data was recorded and analyzed?

    Your comment "Itís obvious the when wind blows on the back of your head, air in front of you doesnít push off your face as it moves away from you" needs to be justified by data not just your feelings. Further you have misapplied Newtons Third Law the air in front of your head is an external force not associated with that blowing at the back of your head. Yes I know all air is air, but not in the way you described your "experiment" force wise that is..

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockethunter View Post
    The experiments were so simple
    Anyone can do at home. It’s obvious the when wind blows on the back of your head, the air in front of you doesn’t push off your face as it moves away from you
    If they're so simple, why not show us that you've done them?
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  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockethunter View Post
    You’Ve misapplied Newton’s laws
    Actually you are claiming about 3 billion people are misapplying Newton's laws. Since this is basic high school physics.

    You've been given numerous pieces of evidence and experiments of rockets and thrusters working in space or a vacuum. A quick search provides many more.
    Soyuz docking thrusters: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQAmV_kv2Sk
    Progress docking thrusters: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_4QNZajBjc
    Draco thruster test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5j5exxNZFw
    Testing a rocket in a vacuum at home: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uf6158lBjGo
    Dragon staging: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEom0G30Gic

    Then there are satellites just being up there, satellites manoeuvring, ISS still being in orbit and all the other stuff.

    The problem is your argument is that your evidence is right and all the rest must be a hoax or wrong because you are right. You have been unable to provide a compelling counter-argument for the overwhelming evidence that people here have observed for objects being put into space and moving around in space, which requires that rockets work in a vacuum. You have ignored that fact that people have debunked the video you provided on the first page of this thread.

    So the acid test question - what evidence would you accept to prove that you are wrong and rockets work in a vacuum?

  12. #162
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    Tsiolkovsky rocket equation.
    Δv = Ve * ln[R]

    Solve it, live it, love it.

    Or prove it wrong.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by bknight View Post
    <snip for brevity>

    Here is a simple link to a page of images that shows all the forces in a rocket. You should be able to see that the forces of the gases are contained everywhere except the outlet; since the force applied at the point of combustion is not constrained toward the nozzle of the rocket the engine is forced in the opposite direction see the diagram under the heading "A Closer Look At Thrust".

    http://www.zamandayolculuk.com/html-...et_physics.htm

    ETA: BTW the unopposed force at the nozzle end occurs whether there is water, air or vacuum at that open end.
    Sometime ago I posted this to help you with the concept of Newton's Third Law and how it applies to rockets. You have failed to understand anything on this page or you didn't read it, as your most recent post indicates. Look very carefully at my edit.
    Again what data did you measure with your head in the wind experiment. How was this data acquired? And one more time your feeling does not answer those questions.

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swift View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Swift View Post
    rockethunter

    You say there is no air in space. How do you know? If, as you claim, rockets can't work in vacuum, then either we never sent a rocket there, or it isn't a vacuum. Please present the evidence and the data showing there is no air in space.
    Third time I've asked this.

    Rockethunter, I would like an answer to my question. How do you know there is no air in space if we never went there?
    Four has always been my lucky number.

    Rockethunter, I want an answer to my question.
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  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockethunter View Post
    The experiments were so simple
    Anyone can do at home. It’s obvious the when wind blows on the back of your head, the air in front of you doesn’t push off your face as it moves away from you
    Again you are mixing up reference frames. Your head is not expelling the mass, the mass is moving around your head. But when you blow out violently, you are generating (small) backwards thrust.

    I've given you the simple experiments you keep beggin about before, here they are again.
    -pressure gradiŽnt causing force: blow up a balloon, don't tie it. Let go. Done.
    -excluding influence of atmospheric drag of expelled object: sit on a skateboard, throw away a bowling ball with great force using only wrist motion. You move in the opposite direction. Now Do the same, but with a balloon (tied) of same size as the bowling ball = same atmospheric drag. You won't move. Done.
    Last edited by Nicolas; 2019-May-04 at 06:55 PM.

  16. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockethunter View Post
    The experiments were so simple
    Anyone can do at home. Itís obvious the when wind blows on the back of your head, the air in front of you doesnít push off your face as it moves away from you
    The mainstream model that shows rockets work better in a vacuum doesn't predict the force you describe.

  17. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockethunter View Post
    Rockets explode in space lol
    The railroad tank cars imploded under more pressure than they were designed to withstand. Substitute submarines for them and we could apply 20 times as much outside pressure and not crush them. The soda cans burst under more pressure than they were designed to contain. Substitute high-pressure oxygen tanks for them and we can contain vastly more pressure.

    How is any of this relevant to rockets in space?

  18. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockethunter View Post
    I have proven that there is no equal an opposite reaction from gas movement due to pressure gradient force.
    That in no way addresses my question, and this is now twice that you have intentionally avoided answering it. While the question of if you have or have not proved anything may be an important topic to cover, and many other members are indeed asking you about it, my question is different. I will quote it here again:

    "Why do you think that nobody in the past 60 years has ever bothered to do the incredibly simple and easy experiment of making a vacuum chamber and putting a rocket inside it attached to a force gauge? Why have you personally not done this experiment?"

    You previously asked me who has the time and money, and then after I answered you you gave no rebuttal so I am assuming you now accept that a vast number of people and organizations across the world have both the time and the money to do this. And since you are evidently accepting that, it only adds more weight to my question.

    Oh, but to address this claim of yours, no you have not proven that there is no equal and opposite reaction from rockets. If this was true you easily could, but as it's not you will be unable to prove this at all. Sorry.

  19. #169
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    rockethunter, you have now twice been infracted for not answering or ignoring questions pertinent to your CT thread. The last time came with a suspension and temporary closure of your thread. On your return you requested the thread to be reopened. But instead of addressing the many outstanding questions all you have done is once again just picking the occasional post to reply to or to take potshots where you see opportunity. Not a single question answered from before the suspension. This will not do. This new infraction will once again suspend you. On your return you better be prepared to make a acceptable effort to answer all outstanding questions without joking. Thread closed, if there's a convincing reason to reopen, you know what to do. For you, rockethunter, that convincing will probably at least require a demonstration with a list of answers.
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