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Thread: NASA's moon mission - ARTEMIS

  1. #361
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    NASA's court filing is like...OUCH!

    "NASA said Blue Origin made a number of assumptions in its bid to build the agency's new astronaut lunar lander and that "all of these assumptions were incorrect," according to documents obtained by @joroulette"

    NASA: "All of this once-in-a-generation momentum, can easily be undone by one party—in this case, Blue Origin—who seeks to prioritize its own fortunes over that of NASA, the United States, and every person alive today"

    Twitter thread
    https://twitter.com/thesheetztweetz/...21011395121165

  2. #362
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    That's gonna leave a mark.

  3. #363
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    NASA EMU spacesuit crisis

    A new article in Ars Technica - it didn’t get a lot of attention, but NASA is now officially turning to private industry to supply Extravehicular Mobility Units (spacesuits for use outside of spacecraft). I was frankly astonished sometime back to learn the current suits were all made in the ‘70s for the space shuttle program. Some have been lost with shuttles and tests, and after the end of the shuttle program suits on the ISS couldn’t be brought back to Earth for more extensive repair and refurbishment until the cargo Dragon started flying. They are under constant repair and it is getting hard to replace certain parts since the technology has moved on and some supplying companies no longer exist so some things just aren’t available anymore. I remember reading about one device where they needed to design a drop-in replacement using very different technology and there was substantial expense verifying it did the job as well as the original.

    NASA has spent fourteen years and over 400 million dollars on a new suit design and is still years from getting one manufactured for use, which is a problem for going back to the Moon this decade.

    To be fair, an EMU is essentially a spacecraft in its own right, with serious complexities in design. Also, to go back to the Moon, they want changes. Lunar dust got into the zippers on the original Apollo suits and air loss substantially increased after a couple of EVAs. That wasn’t a problem for short missions, but isn’t viable for long term repeated use. Also, they don’t want astronauts breathing much dust either, since it especially bad for the lungs.

    Then there is the old sublimation cooler design. It is wonderfully simple and both the Russians and Chinese use essentially the same technology, but for long term use on the Moon it wastes water.

    There are other issues, but I suspect private companies will manage to come up with something quicker and for less money. NASA will let them use what they came up with so far as a starting point for a new suit if they want, or they can go with fully in-house designs. Of course they will need to meet requirements and pass NASA tests.

    Here’s the Ars article:

    https://arstechnica.com/science/2021...lp/?comments=1

    "The problem with quotes on the Internet is that it is hard to verify their authenticity." — Abraham Lincoln

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  4. #364
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    SpaceX had a head start, requiring EVA suits for their own purposes. You can bet ILC Dover, Dave Clark, and Collins will have their own designs as well.

  5. #365
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    "NASA administrator: Astronauts no longer exclusive to white men"

    https://www.tampabay.com/news/nation...-to-white-men/

    Being an astronaut is no longer an exclusive club of white men, NASA Administrator Bill Nelson said Friday while telling students that the first woman and first person of color will be landing on the moon soon.

    Nelson told a group of middle school students and Florida A&M-Florida State College of Engineering students that unlike the Apollo missions to the moon, the return under the Artemis Program will be led by a diverse group of astronauts.

    “The astronaut corps looks a lot different,” Nelson said. “They’re not all white male test pilots. Now they’re women, and they’re people of color, and they’re PhDs, and they’re medical doctors and they’re scientists. It’s faces just like your faces. The faces of America.”
    I am because we are
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  6. #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by docmordrid View Post
    There are images of crew berthing cabin. Musk placed one in the background of his comments after the Crew Dragon in-flight abort test, and NSF contributor @BocaChicaGal caught several stacked bunk-style + a ladder in a staging tent next to the mockup several months ago, so it's reasonable to assume they were installed.
    They appear to be behind in their Low Fidelity designing when compared to Dynetics, who had something up and running within 3 months of getting chosen in the first round.
    The BocaChica pic appears to show this, perhaps in consultation with Artemis crew.

    Knowing Musk's love of props during presentations it is surprising we have not seen any more of this.

  7. #367
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    He's a bit late to the party, no? I mean, the first African-American astronaut and first female US astronaut flew before I was born and when I was born, Niki Lauda still had to win his last F1 championship.
    With sufficient thrust, water towers fly just fine.

  8. #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicolas View Post
    He's a bit late to the party, no? I mean, the first African-American astronaut and first female US astronaut flew before I was born and when I was born, Niki Lauda still had to win his last F1 championship.
    One of the things about the Challenger disaster that hurt so much (for me at least, and I heard similar from other people) is that the crew was a snapshot of us - men, women, astronauts and civilians, people of different races. We all lost people that represented us. Afterwords, I would always get a little misty eyed seeing their smiling faces:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_..._51-l_crew.jpg

    "The problem with quotes on the Internet is that it is hard to verify their authenticity." — Abraham Lincoln

    I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?

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  9. #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edsel View Post
    They appear to be behind in their Low Fidelity designing when compared to Dynetics, who had something up and running within 3 months of getting chosen in the first round.

    The BocaChica pic appears to show this, perhaps in consultation with Artemis crew.
    Starship's crew cabin was shown Jan 19, 2020 during the Crew Dragon In-Flight Abort Test webcast.

    [Still can't upload images; Chrome or Firefox]

    The NASA HLS candidates selection was announced 3 months later; April 30, 2020.

    https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/n...moon-missions/
    Last edited by docmordrid; 2021-Oct-05 at 06:57 PM.

  10. #370
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    Quote Originally Posted by docmordrid View Post
    Starship's crew cabin was shown Jan 19, 2020 during the Crew Dragon In-Flight Abort Test webcast.

    [Still can't upload images; Chrome or Firefox]

    The NASA HLS candidates selection was announced 3 months later; April 30, 2020.

    https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/n...moon-missions/
    I have a suggestion, just upload a link to your images instead of the image itself. This might sidestep the land mine you're getting.

  11. #371
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    Quote Originally Posted by bknight View Post
    I have a suggestion, just upload a link to your images instead of the image itself. This might sidestep the land mine you're getting.
    Video cued up to where I grabbed the frame. Musk talking to left, crew pod to the right in the background. Several scenes. They're stackable. Another image is on reddit showing 2 stacked in a tent near the HLS mockup. Needs brightening.

    https://youtu.be/HFJtLNVDbJ4?t=12

    https://www.reddit.com/r/SpaceXLoung...saspaceflight/
    Last edited by docmordrid; 2021-Oct-07 at 08:41 PM.

  12. #372
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    Hopefully those beds are not meant for Mars colony ships.

    If you view this video;
    https://youtu.be/IdhObMVE6kQ

    @4:15 you can see the work that went into the model. Consoles and controls that can be moved around iand customized according to a consultant astronaut's preference.

  13. #373
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    More than likely the mockups SpaceX are building also incorporate configurability for the not overly large components, as a) that is common practice for early-stage mockups and b) Crew Dragon had this functionality even in the software HMI during development.

    In simulators that simulate multiple vehicles, this kind of functionality is even present in the final article. You can swap out hardware modules, or these days simply software interfaces on touch screens. I once even simply used magnetic labels under multi-purpose sticks and buttons in a simulator where exact layout fidelity wasn't important.

    In very-early-stage-mockups we often just claimed a colleague's desk, cut some cardboard and glued printed interfaces on them just to see how reachable everything would be. This was the first "hardware" step after making the layout in CAD using a drawing of a person with reach lines.
    With sufficient thrust, water towers fly just fine.

  14. #374
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    "NASA's Artemis I mission to the moon has been delayed"

    https://edition.cnn.com/2021/10/22/w...scn/index.html

    The launch of Artemis I, an uncrewed mission serving as the first step of NASA's ambitious program to return humans to the moon, has been delayed until at least February, according to the agency.

    The mission was originally scheduled to launch in November, but delays due to the pandemic, storms like Hurrican Ida and other factors have drawn out the mission timeline.
    During the flight, the uncrewed Orion spacecraft will launch atop the SLS rocket to reach the moon and travel thousands of miles beyond it -- father than any spacecraft intended to carry humans has ever traveled. This mission is expected to last for a few weeks and will end with Orion splashing down in the Pacific Ocean.
    I am because we are
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  15. #375
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    Maybe SLS will launch in my lifetime.

  16. #376
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    A delay? What a surprise.

    From the article linked above:

    During the flight, the uncrewed Orion spacecraft will launch atop the SLS rocket to reach the moon and travel thousands of miles beyond it -- father[sic] than any spacecraft intended to carry humans has ever traveled.

    Father than? Do they even have proofreaders?

    "The problem with quotes on the Internet is that it is hard to verify their authenticity." — Abraham Lincoln

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  17. #377
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    Quote Originally Posted by Van Rijn View Post
    A delay? What a surprise.

    From the article linked above:

    During the flight, the uncrewed Orion spacecraft will launch atop the SLS rocket to reach the moon and travel thousands of miles beyond it -- father[sic] than any spacecraft intended to carry humans has ever traveled.

    Father than? Do they even have proofreaders?
    Farther is acceptable when talking about physical distance.

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/word...age-how-to-use
    I may have many faults, but being wrong ain't one of them. - Jimmy Hoffa

  18. #378
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    Quote Originally Posted by selvaarchi View Post
    "NASA's Artemis I mission to the moon has been delayed"

    https://edition.cnn.com/2021/10/22/w...scn/index.html
    Spellcheck won't work with her intensions.

  19. #379
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    Quote Originally Posted by Extravoice View Post
    Farther is acceptable when talking about physical distance.

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/word...age-how-to-use
    “father” is not, however. Read it again.

    "The problem with quotes on the Internet is that it is hard to verify their authenticity." — Abraham Lincoln

    I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?

    The Leif Ericson Cruiser

  20. #380
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    Quote Originally Posted by Van Rijn View Post
    “father” is not, however. Read it again.
    That’s why I’d make a poor editor- I always have real-time autocorrect enabled in my mind.

    I wonder if that’s because I have poor eyesight that wasn’t corrected until well past the point I learned to read.
    I may have many faults, but being wrong ain't one of them. - Jimmy Hoffa

  21. #381
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    NASA's SELECTION OF Spacex Starship HLS UPHELD !!

    NASA Artemis ✓ @NASAArtemis
    .@NASA's selection of @SpaceX to develop and demonstrate a modern human lunar lander has been upheld. We will resume work as soon as possible: https://go.nasa.gov/3CLGJtp

    https://twitter.com/NASAArtemis/stat...29467874394117

    NASA was notified Thursday that the U.S. Court of Federal Claims denied Blue Origin’s bid protest, upholding NASA’s selection of SpaceX to develop and demonstrate a modern human lunar lander. NASA will resume work with SpaceX under the Option A contract as soon as possible.

    In addition to this contract, NASA continues working with multiple American companies to bolster competition and commercial readiness for crewed transportation to the lunar surface. There will be forthcoming opportunities for companies to partner with NASA in establishing a long-term human presence at the Moon under the agency’s Artemis program, including a call in 2022 to U.S. industry for recurring crewed lunar landing services.

    Through Artemis missions, NASA will lead the world in landing the first woman and first person of color on the lunar surface, conduct extensive operations on and around the Moon, and get ready for human missions to Mars.

    -end-

  22. #382
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    NASA Admin Bill Nelson pretty much tosses Blue under the bus...

    Eric Berger ✓ @SciGuySpace (Ars Technica)
    Nelson says "we've lost nearly seven months in litigation" on Artemis. Says the first Moon landing will now occur no earlier than 2025.

    https://twitter.com/SciGuySpace/stat...1QguyCqa-_K--Q

  23. #383
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    Quote Originally Posted by docmordrid View Post
    NASA Admin Bill Nelson pretty much tosses Blue under the bus...

    Eric Berger ✓ @SciGuySpace (Ars Technica)
    Nelson says "we've lost nearly seven months in litigation" on Artemis. Says the first Moon landing will now occur no earlier than 2025.

    https://twitter.com/SciGuySpace/stat...1QguyCqa-_K--Q
    And here’s the article:

    https://arstechnica.com/science/2021...rtly-to-blame/

    I’ve noticed a pattern - a few hours after Eric Berger posts one of these tweets, there is usually a follow-up Ars Tech article with more details.


    NASA Administrator Bill Nelson led the briefing with space reporters, which came five days after the US Court of Federal Claims ruled against Blue Origin's lawsuit against NASA for its selection of SpaceX to build a lunar lander for the Artemis Program. […]

    He came out guns blazing at Blue Origin. "We've lost nearly seven months in litigation and that likely has pushed the first human landing likely to no earlier than 2025," Nelson said, pinning the delay in NASA's return to the Moon firmly on Blue Origin and its lawyers. During the legal process, NASA was forbidden from working or even talking with SpaceX regarding the Human Landing System (HLS) program. The agency was also unable to provide milestone payments.

    "I spoke last Friday with Gwynne Shotwell," Nelson said, referring to the president and chief operating officer of SpaceX. "This is the first contact we've been able to have about the HLS program, and we both underscored the importance of returning to the Moon as quickly and safely as possible."

    In fairness, hardly anyone thought they could be ready to go in 2024 anyway, and the article discusses a bit of that. I’ll be happy if they make it by 2028. We’ve waited so long for a return to the Moon, what are a few more years, as long as they really do it this time? This time, it feels real, with hardware developed or well in the process of being developed. The pieces are coming together, finally.

    I wouldn’t be surprised if this hurts Blue Origin in the long run, though. Not a good idea to tick off NASA leadership.

    "The problem with quotes on the Internet is that it is hard to verify their authenticity." — Abraham Lincoln

    I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?

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  24. #384
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    I wouldn’t be surprised if this hurts Blue Origin in the long run, though. Not a good idea to tick off NASA leadership.
    Especially because there is nothing (yet) to balance it. No BE4 engines, no orbital capability whatsoever. It's OKish to complain to your customer about something when you've got a history of providing, but not when you're yet to make him happy at all.
    With sufficient thrust, water towers fly just fine.

  25. #385
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    I agree with Van Rijn, Blue Origin is screwed for the foreseeable future. Bad. Move.

  26. #386
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicolas View Post
    Especially because there is nothing (yet) to balance it. No BE4 engines, no orbital capability whatsoever. It's OKish to complain to your customer about something when you've got a history of providing, but not when you're yet to make him happy at all.
    That may have been the straw that broke the lawsuit. Totally unjustified.

  27. #387
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    The only path to success left for Blue Origin is to start actually delivering capable hardware in a reasonably timely manner. Typical mega corp dirty tricks won't cut it anymore. Bezos obviously has something to have built what he has, it can't be just chance, but the decisions he's made with respect to Blue Origin don't seem to be very smart to me.

  28. #388
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    "NASA may not land people on moon again until 2027, new audit says"

    https://www.moondaily.com/reports/NA..._says_999.html

    Despite U.S. goals to land people on the moon again by 2024, delays of several years are likely, according to a NASA watchdog audit released Monday.

    Former Vice President Mike Pence set that 2024 goal in a 2019 speech, giving NASA just five years to accomplish the feat.

    While NASA reinforced the practicality of that goal for a long time, NASA Administrator Bill Nelson said Tuesday that the agency now plans to aim for 2025 because of funding shortfalls.

    But the new audit from NASA's Office of Inspector General dashed the 2025 goal as unrealistic.

    "Given the time needed to develop and fully test the [Human Landing System] and new spacesuits, we project NASA will exceed its current timetable for landing humans on the Moon in late 2024 by several years," the Office of Inspector General said.
    I am because we are
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  29. #389
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    Quote Originally Posted by selvaarchi View Post
    "NASA may not land people on moon again until 2027, new audit says"
    Great! That’s a year earlier than what I’ve been suggesting, just based on the time it can take for everything to come together. If it is done within this decade, and it is a real return, not just a repeat flag and footprints mission, I’ll be happy. We’ve waited this long, I’m not so concerned that it gets done quickly but that it is done right this time, with an ongoing presence there.

    "The problem with quotes on the Internet is that it is hard to verify their authenticity." — Abraham Lincoln

    I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?

    The Leif Ericson Cruiser

  30. #390
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    This is getting just plain disgusting

    Michael Sheetz ✓ @thesheetztweetz (CNBC)

    As Blue Origin battled NASA in federal court – in a lawsuit the company eventually lost – it sweetened Jeff Bezos' previous offer to cover up to $2 billion in lunar lander costs – with CEO Bob Smith raising the proposal "to over $3 billion:"
    https://t.co/UJCIGHVWG3?amp=1

    https://twitter.com/thesheetztweetz/...nKtjoKJnS_sqtw

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