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Thread: NASA's moon mission - ARTEMIS

  1. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by docmordrid View Post
    Somehow I don't think this is the last we hear of Blue Origin et. al.

  2. #332
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    Even though NASA will have spent more than a billion dollars on the next-generation spacesuits, Martin concluded that the “suits would not be ready for flight until April 2025 at the earliest” and are “years away from completion.”
    Now it's the "spacesuits"!

  3. #333
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    Ely, a link to the source article of the quote would be appreciated.

    Here is one discussing the issue:

    https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/10/elon...-for-nasa.html

    So a few things, they are talking about an April 2025 date for the new spacesuits being available. Trump was interested in a moon landing in 2024, but that was considered almost certainly too soon without much more funding and a high priority placed on the program like we had in the ‘60s. 2028 is considered a more realistic goal given remaining issues and funding, so it doesn’t look like a major concern. Now with Biden, it is well understood that he isn’t pushing for 2024. However, very importantly, the fundamental goal hasn’t changed between administrations. For the first time since the sixties, rockets, moon landers, and spacesuits that can take people to the moon and let them land and walk there again are well into development.

    In the article above it mentions that 27 different companies are involved in supplying the parts for the spacesuit. It sounds like a typical government led program, with typical bureaucratic delays and too many cooks. Musk has stepped in and offered to develop an EVA suit. I think it likely SpaceX could do it faster and cheaper, but it probably won’t come to that.

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  4. #334
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    Bear in mind these IG reports are often several months out of date at publication due to the review orocess.

    SpaceX is working on their own EVA suits for internal use, and in April 2021 NASA recently issued an RFI (request for information) for the commercial procurement of EVA suits, so Musk's offer shouldn't be a surprise.


    https://www.space.com/nasa-rfi-space...mmercial-space
    Last edited by docmordrid; 2021-Aug-11 at 05:55 PM.

  5. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by Van Rijn View Post
    Ely, a link to the source article of the quote would be appreciated.
    It's a fairly widely syndicated article. Here it is at CNN:
    https://edition.cnn.com/2021/08/10/w...scn/index.html

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  6. #336
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    Well, these IG reports do tend to be out of date on publication.

    In April 2021 NASA issued a RFI (request for information) for commercial EVA suits and services, then in July 2021 they issued the RFP (request for proposals). Responses are due August 17, with awards in early 2022.

    Given Musk's tweets, SpaceX will bid.

    https://www.nasa.gov/feature/artemis...eloped-through

    https://www.nasa.gov/feature/nasa-em...-space-station
    Last edited by docmordrid; 2021-Aug-12 at 02:36 AM.

  7. #337
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    NASA's moon mission - ARTEMIS

    Quote Originally Posted by Ely View Post
    Now it's the "spacesuits"!
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  8. #338
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    Blue is considering a lawsuit in the Court of Federal Claims over their HLS loss.

    https://twitter.com/wapodavenport/st...92931461832715

  9. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by docmordrid View Post
    Blue is considering a lawsuit in the Court of Federal Claims over their HLS loss.

    https://twitter.com/wapodavenport/st...92931461832715
    Why fix with engineers what you can fix with lawyers?

    I still don't understand Blue Origin's offer (after the fact) to waive $2 billion in development fees. If they were willing to do that, why didn't they just submit a bid that was $2 billion less? My suspicion is that there is some sort of advantage (taxes?) to do it that way.
    Last edited by Swift; 2021-Aug-12 at 09:15 PM.
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  10. #340
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    Trouble among the National Team members?

    Tweet by a Northrop-Grumman engineer...

    https://twitter.com/AstroStaab/statu...58549912653824

  11. #341
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    Quote Originally Posted by Van Rijn View Post
    Ely, a link to the source article of the quote would be appreciated.

    Here is one discussing the issue:

    https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/10/elon...-for-nasa.html

    So a few things, they are talking about an April 2025 date for the new spacesuits being available. Trump was interested in a moon landing in 2024, but that was considered almost certainly too soon without much more funding and a high priority placed on the program like we had in the ‘60s. 2028 is considered a more realistic goal given remaining issues and funding, so it doesn’t look like a major concern. Now with Biden, it is well understood that he isn’t pushing for 2024. However, very importantly, the fundamental goal hasn’t changed between administrations. For the first time since the sixties, rockets, moon landers, and spacesuits that can take people to the moon and let them land and walk there again are well into development.

    In the article above it mentions that 27 different companies are involved in supplying the parts for the spacesuit. It sounds like a typical government led program, with typical bureaucratic delays and too many cooks. Musk has stepped in and offered to develop an EVA suit. I think it likely SpaceX could do it faster and cheaper, but it probably won’t come to that.
    And of course despite all 27 allegedly working to the same design its practically guaranteed there will be issues with integration and there will be yet more money spent on remedial work.

  12. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swift View Post
    Why fix with engineers what you can fix with lawyers?

    I still don't understand Blue Origin's offer (after the fact) to waive $2 billion in development fees. If they were willing to do that, why didn't they just submit a bid that was $2 billion less? My suspicion is that there is some sort of advantage (taxes?) to do it that way.
    Because they were counting on lobbying to get the contract and didn't think they would have to put in a lower bid?

  13. #343
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    Jeffy boy has a serious poor loser problem.

    https://www.theverge.com/2021/8/16/2...s-lunar-lander

    Jeff Bezos’ Blue Origin sues NASA, escalating its fight for a Moon lander contract

    Jeff Bezos’ space company Blue Origin brought its fight against NASA’s Moon program to federal court on Monday, doubling down on accusations that the agency wrongly evaluated its lunar lander proposal. The complaint escalates a monthslong crusade by the company to win a chunk of lunar lander funds that was only given to its rival, Elon Musk’s SpaceX and comes weeks after Blue Origin’s first protest over the Moon program was squashed by a federal watchdog agency. Now in court, Blue Origin’s challenge could trigger another pause to SpaceX’s contract and a new lengthy delay to NASA’s race to land astronauts on the Moon by 2024.
    >
    Last edited by docmordrid; 2021-Aug-16 at 08:16 PM.

  14. #344
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    Ha! Some funny shade that Musk threw on Bezos:

    “The sad thing is that even if Santa Claus suddenly made their hardware real for free, the first thing you’d want to do is cancel it.”

  15. #345
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    Bezos talking about procurement protests & lawsuits...

    https://youtu.be/bG0kT78SDn0?t=1800

  16. #346
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    https://twitter.com/SciGuySpace/stat...88003836317701

    Eric Berger ✓ @SciGuySpace
    Aug 16, 2021
    In recent days NASA had been talking to Blue Origin in an effort to mediate the HLS issue, thus avoiding this next legal step. Apparently those talks broke down and Blue Origin has escalated its scorched Earth campaign against the space agency.
    ||
    Joey Roulette ✓ @joroulette
    New: Jeff Bezos' Blue Origin has sued NASA, dragging its fight to win a chunk of lunar lander funding into a new phase that could trigger another lengthy pause to SpaceX's contract. https://theverge.com/2021/8/16/22623...s-lunar-lander
    |
    Eric Berger ✓ @SciGuySpace
    So why is Blue Origin doing this? Three theories I've heard:

    • CEO Bob Smith has been told he is fired unless he wins an HLS contract

    • Jeff Bezos is employing a "Burn the Ships" strategy

    • Bezos is counting on Congress to bail him out

  17. #347
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    Blue's 'Mission Architecture and Integration Lead, Human Landing System' engineer quit and moved to SpaceX,

    LinkedIn
    https://tinyurl.com/43uzwnxe

  18. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by docmordrid View Post
    • CEO Bob Smith has been told he is fired unless he wins an HLS contract

    • Jeff Bezos is employing a "Burn the Ships" strategy

    • Bezos is counting on Congress to bail him out
    Bezos is a spoiled brat who thinks too much of himself and rather tear others down rather than succeeding on his own merits?
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  19. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by docmordrid View Post
    Blue's 'Mission Architecture and Integration Lead, Human Landing System' engineer quit and moved to SpaceX,

    LinkedIn
    https://tinyurl.com/43uzwnxe
    That's not exactly a confidence builder for NASA to entrust BO with any future contracts, even if they weren't p****d off about the lawsuit.

  20. #350
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    Here's another,

    Former SpaceXer Lauren Lyons (from the Falcon Heavy maiden flight, Demo 1, Demo 2 streams) moved to Blue Origin as Lead of Requirements, Verification, Validation, and Certification for Artemis Human Landing System National Team, and Lead Systems Engineer in their Advanced Development Programs division.

    She left for Firefly Aerospace.

    https://twitter.com/nova_road/status...35624765906954

  21. #351
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    Justice Department agrees to a temporary stop of NASA's work on Starship HLS until November 1..

    https://twitter.com/joroulette/statu...42124228468741

    Court schedule,
    HLS STOP ORDER.jpeg

  22. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by docmordrid View Post
    Justice Department agrees to a temporary stop of NASA's work on Starship HLS until November 1..

    https://twitter.com/joroulette/statu...42124228468741

    Court schedule,
    HLS STOP ORDER.jpeg
    So what exactly is NASA working on for it right now when the base version of Starship is still a work in progress?

  23. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grashtel View Post
    So what exactly is NASA working on for it right now when the base version of Starship is still a work in progress?
    My guess is that it mostly would be paperwork and planning on NASA’s part, and perhaps if SpaceX has questions for NASA engineers, they might need to wait.

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  24. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by Van Rijn View Post
    My guess is that it mostly would be paperwork and planning on NASA’s part, and perhaps if SpaceX has questions for NASA engineers, they might need to wait.
    Also astronauts doing regular tours and checking out the Starship HLS prototype. It has crew cabins, controls, etc. - essentially mockups & prototypes of what the HLS ship would have. SpaceX also has a prototype of the dep!oyable crew/cargo elevator.

    Starship HLS prototype.jpg

  25. #355
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    And NASA again stops work on SpaceX contract "voluntarily"
    After an independent government agency rejected Blue Origin's first complaint about the contract, the company sued NASA in the Court of Federal Claims, which exclusively hears cases against the U.S. government, on Aug. 13; the agency has now agreed to pause the project for 2.5 months in exchange for resolving the lawsuit by the end of that window.

  26. #356
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    Look for the Justice Dept. to ask for a summary judgement (immediate judicial ruling) at the first opportunity.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/20/jeff...der-fight.html

    Top talent departs Jeff Bezos’ Blue Origin as NASA lander fight escalates
    >
    At least 11 key leaders and senior engineers have left Blue Origin this summer, CNBC has learned, with many moving on in the weeks after Bezos’ spaceflight.

    [...]According to Glassdoor, just 15% of Blue Origin employees approve of CEO Bob Smith – versus 91% for Elon Musk at SpaceX or 77% for Tory Bruno at United Launch Alliance.
    Last edited by docmordrid; 2021-Aug-20 at 07:58 PM.

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