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Thread: Star Trek Voyager revisited

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    Star Trek Voyager revisited

    Hi everyone. I figured I'd duck in as this is as good a place as any (ok, the best place, still) to post some thoughts I have about ST Voyager, upon a second (first, really) viewing.

    Back when the series premiered, I was not impressed with the show - particularly the pilot episode. I felt like the idea that they couldn't use The Array to get back to the Alpha Quadrant because of a potential shift in the balance of power was a cop out and ridiculous. And I just never watched more than a few disconnected episodes during its run on TV.

    Now, after finally catching all of DS9 (I missed the last couple of seasons while in grad school), I decided to give Voyager a "go".

    And it was surprisingly better than I remembered. I found myself very impressed by Captain Janeway, and Kes is probably the most interesting character on the show, now that I am nearly at the end of Season 2.

    EXCEPT

    I just watched the episode titled, "Tuvix", where Neelix and Tuvok become merged into a new person. Now, I'm not going to take issue with the implausible science and handwaving necessary for this to have happened (I mean, it's Star Trek.. where would you STOP?). No. I mean, that crew, besides the Doctor, MURDERED Tuvix, straight up! It was so horrible and so against how they've built Janeway up to this point! I had NOT seen this episode before, but suffice it to say, if I had gotten this far during its first run, it would have been my very last episode. For sure.

    BUT

    With a couple extra jaded decades under my disappointingly longer belt, I probably will watch more eps, but I tell you, I really am upset - in the unimportant realm of the make-believe show - and the writers and director did their best to show it as a horrible decision.. but really. It was hard to watch. I mean, where do you take the characters from here? (I know, you shrug it off, it's late 90s/early 00s TV)

    CJSF
    "Flipping this one final switch I'm effectively ensuring that I will be
    Overcoming all resistance long after my remains have been
    Vaporized with extreme prejudice and shot into outer space.

    I'll be haunting you."

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    Quote Originally Posted by CJSF View Post
    Kes is probably the most interesting character on the show, now that I am nearly at the end of Season 2.
    Ooh. Awkward.


    I just watched the episode titled, "Tuvix", where Neelix and Tuvok become merged into a new person. Now, I'm not going to take issue with the implausible science and handwaving necessary for this to have happened (I mean, it's Star Trek.. where would you STOP?). No. I mean, that crew, besides the Doctor, MURDERED Tuvix, straight up! It was so horrible and so against how they've built Janeway up to this point! first
    There's a reason SFDebris does his tyrant Janeway schtick.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glom View Post
    There's a reason SFDebris does his tyrant Janeway schtick.
    Literally no idea what that is.

    CJSF
    "Flipping this one final switch I'm effectively ensuring that I will be
    Overcoming all resistance long after my remains have been
    Vaporized with extreme prejudice and shot into outer space.

    I'll be haunting you."

    -They Might Be Giants, "I'll Be Haunting You"


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    I found it to be an ok series, esp as they crossed paths with the Borg on many occasions even up to the final episode.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CJSF View Post

    ...

    EXCEPT

    I just watched the episode titled, "Tuvix", where Neelix and Tuvok become merged into a new person. Now, I'm not going to take issue with the implausible science and handwaving necessary for this to have happened (I mean, it's Star Trek.. where would you STOP?). No. I mean, that crew, besides the Doctor, MURDERED Tuvix, straight up! It was so horrible and so against how they've built Janeway up to this point! I had NOT seen this episode before, but suffice it to say, if I had gotten this far during its first run, it would have been my very last episode. For sure.

    ...
    I had that reaction as well.

    Yet, there was that very early episode wherein the transporter split Captain Kirk into a wimp-Kirk and a sociopath-Kirk, and nobody had any objections to killing off both of these losers to restore the standard-issue Kirk.

    So, they did a good job of building some identification with Tuvix.

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    I liked Voyager.

    Janeway consistently ranks in the top three of "Best Star Trek Captains" polls.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim View Post
    I liked Voyager.

    Janeway consistently ranks in the top three of "Best Star Trek Captains" polls.
    Other that this outlier episode (so far), I agree. I think it's great she was a science officer, and she's very engineer minded. I love the scenes where she collaborates with Torres. And they made her strong and compassionate. Her friendship with Kes is touching without delving into mothering.

    CJSF
    "Flipping this one final switch I'm effectively ensuring that I will be
    Overcoming all resistance long after my remains have been
    Vaporized with extreme prejudice and shot into outer space.

    I'll be haunting you."

    -They Might Be Giants, "I'll Be Haunting You"


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    Now there might have been a way to keep Tuvix. A Thomas Riker clone of him as the original is separated back into Neelix and Tuvok.

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    Quote Originally Posted by publiusr View Post
    Now there might have been a way to keep Tuvix. A Thomas Riker clone of him as the original is separated back into Neelix and Tuvok.
    Star Trek has a disappointing knack for forgetting or not disseminating important breakthroughs like that. Honestly, with the basic tech available, contemporaneous species of the Alpha Quadrant should be more akin to the First Ones from Babylon 5.

    CJSF
    "Flipping this one final switch I'm effectively ensuring that I will be
    Overcoming all resistance long after my remains have been
    Vaporized with extreme prejudice and shot into outer space.

    I'll be haunting you."

    -They Might Be Giants, "I'll Be Haunting You"


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    Star Trek's not great about this kind of thing. How about the TNG episode where they took two fully sentient and self-aware human-based machine lifeforms that they'd accidentally created and who wanted to live freely in the real world, one of whom they'd neglected for four years after promising to work out a way for him to do so, and took advantage of their lack of knowledge and experience to trap them in a little box running a simulation? Picard's last statement and Barclay's paranoid reaction even show they're fully aware of how undesirable it'd be for them.

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    Just saw one of the Barclay episodes tonight, always like a Barclay I can easily relate to him.
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    Season 3 now - and we just had Tuvok so violently shoehorned into the Star Trek 6: The Undiscovered Country timeline that he won't walk right for a week. It was fun to see Sulu again, but that was some fancy retcon dancing.

    CJSF
    "Flipping this one final switch I'm effectively ensuring that I will be
    Overcoming all resistance long after my remains have been
    Vaporized with extreme prejudice and shot into outer space.

    I'll be haunting you."

    -They Might Be Giants, "I'll Be Haunting You"


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    Quote Originally Posted by CJSF View Post
    Season 3 now - and we just had Tuvok so violently shoehorned into the Star Trek 6: The Undiscovered Country timeline that he won't walk right for a week. It was fun to see Sulu again, but that was some fancy retcon dancing.
    Plus, they killed Valtane in that episode, but he was still alive at the end of "The Undiscovered Country"...
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    Plus, they killed Valtane in that episode, but he was still alive at the end of "The Undiscovered Country"...
    Sure. But I guess the way out of that is that these views are based on Tuvok's memory, who even as a Vulcan is not immune to the revisionist way brains seem to record and recall events.

    On the other hand, the way time travel is so cavalierly handled by Trek, there could be any number of timelines going on.

    CJSF
    "Flipping this one final switch I'm effectively ensuring that I will be
    Overcoming all resistance long after my remains have been
    Vaporized with extreme prejudice and shot into outer space.

    I'll be haunting you."

    -They Might Be Giants, "I'll Be Haunting You"


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    Quote Originally Posted by CJSF View Post
    Sure. But I guess the way out of that is that these views are based on Tuvok's memory, who even as a Vulcan is not immune to the revisionist way brains seem to record and recall events.

    On the other hand, the way time travel is so cavalierly handled by Trek, there could be any number of timelines going on.

    CJSF
    True. As to the first, though, Valtane's death was a pretty significant part of the events Tuvok was remembering. At least, someone's death was - he certainly could have just been misremembering who the crewmember was that died.

    I'm just worried that they'll pull a Lucas at some point and release a "Special Edition" of TUC replacing Valtane with Tuvok in that final scene...
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    Quote Originally Posted by CJSF View Post
    Sure. But I guess the way out of that is that these views are based on Tuvok's memory, who even as a Vulcan is not immune to the revisionist way brains seem to record and recall events.

    On the other hand, the way time travel is so cavalierly handled by Trek, there could be any number of timelines going on.

    CJSF
    He seemed to remember the First Officer as somewhat heavier than she'd been.

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    In the middle of another Trek comes to modern-ish day Earth plot. More time-line contamination. And what's with the time-ship captain? You're left to your own devices for a few months and you devolve into psychosis? Who's signing up for Starfleet in the 29th century? Filler episode(s) thus far, it seems.

    The previous episode probably had more than a few scientists' eyebrows raised back in the day, I'm guessing. Janeway was positively gutted and depressed at the end while the EMH prattled on about how everything worked. If you talk to most sci-comm folks these days, they are not at all worried about "losing the magic" of "miracles" or are dead to the beauty of the universe. It was a sort of strawman setup, I think.

    The prior several episodes have shown that Janeway does have a bit of a mean streak underneath, which I guess is at least consistent with the murder of Tuvix.

    CJSF
    "Flipping this one final switch I'm effectively ensuring that I will be
    Overcoming all resistance long after my remains have been
    Vaporized with extreme prejudice and shot into outer space.

    I'll be haunting you."

    -They Might Be Giants, "I'll Be Haunting You"


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    "It's Really an Alien Ruse" saves the episode I watched last night from devolving into another "Oh Noes! Someone's Out of Phase and Can't Be Seen Or Heard and Must Watch Their Own Funeral!" one. I liked Geordi and Ro's better, but Torres had a good opportunity to show how the crew has grown and how much Janeway is awesome.

    CJSF
    "Flipping this one final switch I'm effectively ensuring that I will be
    Overcoming all resistance long after my remains have been
    Vaporized with extreme prejudice and shot into outer space.

    I'll be haunting you."

    -They Might Be Giants, "I'll Be Haunting You"


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    Well, that was an abrupt Neelix/Kes break-up! I know she was "changed" by her being possessed by that warlord, but the way Trek usually operates, that'd be a throwaway experience. I've "read ahead" a bit and know there were some machinations with the cast and crew (which brought 7 of 9 into the mix), and what Jennifer Lien's fate was in relation to the series. But still - it was handled rather inelegantly.

    I've most recently watched poor Harry Kim end up in the 24th Century alien version of Castle Anthrax! Yikes!

    CJSF
    "Flipping this one final switch I'm effectively ensuring that I will be
    Overcoming all resistance long after my remains have been
    Vaporized with extreme prejudice and shot into outer space.

    I'll be haunting you."

    -They Might Be Giants, "I'll Be Haunting You"


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    Slight digression, but Kate Mulgrew is playing a rather different character in the current season of Mr. Mercedes. Oh, Captain Janeway!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim View Post
    Slight digression, but Kate Mulgrew is playing a rather different character in the current season of Mr. Mercedes. Oh, Captain Janeway!
    No idea.

    But she also Tweeted today that it's the 25th anniversary of her first stepping in front of the camera as Janeway, prior to the series premier early the following year. She is immensely proud of that role and show (as she should be, now that I'm watching it all these years later with new eyes).

    Eeek! TWENTY FIVE YEARS since Voyager began.

    CJSF
    "Flipping this one final switch I'm effectively ensuring that I will be
    Overcoming all resistance long after my remains have been
    Vaporized with extreme prejudice and shot into outer space.

    I'll be haunting you."

    -They Might Be Giants, "I'll Be Haunting You"


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    Quote Originally Posted by CJSF View Post
    Well, that was an abrupt Neelix/Kes break-up! I know she was "changed" by her being possessed by that warlord, but the way Trek usually operates, that'd be a throwaway experience. I've "read ahead" a bit and know there were some machinations with the cast and crew (which brought 7 of 9 into the mix), and what Jennifer Lien's fate was in relation to the series. But still - it was handled rather inelegantly.

    I've most recently watched poor Harry Kim end up in the 24th Century alien version of Castle Anthrax! Yikes!

    CJSF
    So much the better. Neelix and Kes was one big pile of squick on every level.

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    I have read that sentiment a lot. While Neelix was written as a bit possesive and jealous at times, I actually didn't mind their relationship. I don't see why everyone hated them together. But that is sort of beside the point. It was just so abrupt.

    Speaking of which:
    When did she have time to grow her hair out so long?? I understood it from the perspective of her going backward in time in "Before and After", but when we rejoin the synchronized timeline, it's still long - past her shoulders! All of a sudden she has this improbably long and full 'do.

    And don't get me started on the EMH's "family" from "Real Life" ... and that hamfisted death scene!

    CJSF
    "Flipping this one final switch I'm effectively ensuring that I will be
    Overcoming all resistance long after my remains have been
    Vaporized with extreme prejudice and shot into outer space.

    I'll be haunting you."

    -They Might Be Giants, "I'll Be Haunting You"


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    It's centred around the fact that she's 2. Having Jennifer Lien paired with Ethan Philips serves as the annulus.

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    Star Trek Voyager revisited

    Quote Originally Posted by CJSF View Post

    Speaking of which:
    When did she have time to grow her hair out so long?? I understood it from the perspective of her going backward in time in "Before and After", but when we rejoin the synchronized timeline, it's still long - past her shoulders! All of a sudden she has this improbably long and full 'do.

    CJSF
    Maybe Jennifer Lien got tired of wearing pointy ears all the time? She seems to have had ear-covering hair for a potion the series but I could be wrong. Itís been a while since I last saw an episode.

    ETA: Ah ha...further digging shows that Lien developed a physical reaction to the ear prosthetics.
    Last edited by schlaugh; 2019-Sep-21 at 07:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schlaugh View Post
    Maybe Jennifer Lien got tired of wearing pointy ears all the time? She seems to have had ear-covering hair for a potion the series but I could be wrong. Itís been a while since I last saw an episode.

    ETA: Ah ha...further digging shows that Lien developed a physical reaction to the ear prosthetics.
    Well sure, that's a practical real world reason, but doesn't provide any in-universe scenario. Besides, there's plenty of length options between the original short cut to the ridiculously lush mane she suddenly has!

    Last night the crew encountered sentient hadrosaurs, and Voyager truly showed her age. The "available" data extrapolated from a cold blooded organism (and the Voth scientists wonder at their "find" being warm blooded!) show the Voth to be dinosaurids... but we have much clearer evidence that most dinosaurs were at least partially warm-blooded. Perhaps not true endotherms, like mammals, but certainly not cold-blooded, like reptiles.

    I suppose one could point to the embedded sexism (even given Janeway's inistence on being called "Captain" first and "Ma'am" in more dire circumstances) and other sociological assumptions that are clearly 1990s thinking as also showing Voyager's age, beyond the costuming and production.

    CJSF
    "Flipping this one final switch I'm effectively ensuring that I will be
    Overcoming all resistance long after my remains have been
    Vaporized with extreme prejudice and shot into outer space.

    I'll be haunting you."

    -They Might Be Giants, "I'll Be Haunting You"


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    "The Gift" has yet another Trek cast member departing via "I'm transforming" and vaping off into the aether. So long Kes... They really gave up on her character in the second half of season 3, which is unfortunate. Relegating her to a nurse and not exploring her rapid aging (Ocampa only live 9 years) and mental abilities beyond minor plot points (besides "Before and After" and her final episodes) was not the best choice. I felt like she had the potential to be a major player in the series, but perhaps with Lien's personal problems and changing aspirations, there wasn't much they could do. So now we enter the "eye candy" phase of Voyager. Jeri Ryan was specifically chosen and Seven of Nine's character was designed for sex appeal. But I understand Ryan acquitted herself well in the series and the character was never (or not for long) just designed to fill a skin-tight body suit.

    CJSF
    "Flipping this one final switch I'm effectively ensuring that I will be
    Overcoming all resistance long after my remains have been
    Vaporized with extreme prejudice and shot into outer space.

    I'll be haunting you."

    -They Might Be Giants, "I'll Be Haunting You"


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    Quote Originally Posted by CJSF View Post
    So now we enter the "eye candy" phase of Voyager. Jeri Ryan was specifically chosen and Seven of Nine's character was designed for sex appeal. But I understand Ryan acquitted herself well in the series and the character was never (or not for long) just designed to fill a skin-tight body suit.
    While I liked Kes and agree that was not well developed/utilized, I found Seven to be a more compelling character.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PetersCreek View Post
    While I liked Kes and agree that was not well developed/utilized, I found Seven to be a more compelling character.
    Yes, so I've heard. I am looking forward to seeing where they go with Seven, given how Janeway set has set the tone for their early interactions.

    I did notice a slight retcon: In "Q Who?" Q throws the Enterprise - and humans - into the path of the Borg well before they would have otherwise (I don't recall if it is the Delta Quadrant or not). But in "Scorpion" we learn that Annika Hansen and family basically shot off toward the Delta Quadrant 20 years prior (circa 2354) and she must be one of the first humans assimilated by the Borg. But that means that the Borg were already well aware of humans before Q flung the Enterprise there (wherever) in 2365.

    CJSF
    "Flipping this one final switch I'm effectively ensuring that I will be
    Overcoming all resistance long after my remains have been
    Vaporized with extreme prejudice and shot into outer space.

    I'll be haunting you."

    -They Might Be Giants, "I'll Be Haunting You"


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    Quote Originally Posted by CJSF View Post
    Yes, so I've heard. I am looking forward to seeing where they go with Seven, given how Janeway set has set the tone for their early interactions.

    I did notice a slight retcon: In "Q Who?" Q throws the Enterprise - and humans - into the path of the Borg well before they would have otherwise (I don't recall if it is the Delta Quadrant or not). But in "Scorpion" we learn that Annika Hansen and family basically shot off toward the Delta Quadrant 20 years prior (circa 2354) and she must be one of the first humans assimilated by the Borg. But that means that the Borg were already well aware of humans before Q flung the Enterprise there (wherever) in 2365.
    They may have been aware of the Federation, but had no particular reason to care about them...they'd get assimilated eventually. Q made the Federation aware of them, which made the Federation a potential threat if left to develop countermeasures against the Borg.

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