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Thread: Star Trek Voyager revisited

  1. #61
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    The only "mirror mirror" episode I liked was the one where the evil Capt Archer got his just rewards in the Star Trek Enterprise series.

  2. #62
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    Unfortunately, the mirror universe bit of Discovery is the only unequivocally good bit of that show.

    Living Witness did more than just a mirror universe episode. It was a story about revisionist history.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glom View Post

    Living Witness did more than just a mirror universe episode. It was a story about revisionist history.
    Yes. But I was saying it seemed a way to do the MU without doing an MU episode. The characters got to stretch a bit and play evil or demented versions of themselves, which I am sure has value for them and may have been fun.

    CJSF
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    Let me get this straight. In "Timeless" Harry finds a way to send a message back in time to Seven to try an prevent Voyager's crash and crews' deaths 15 years prior. So he constrains it to a specific and chaotic time, with parameters he'd already not gotten right (leading to the tragedy in the first place). Why not construct a more coherent message - no "embedded" love letter to yourself - to Seven that she receives before they even have the slipstream drive celebration? Or before they engage it at least? What if Janeway had gone the other way and decided the Borg were trying to tamper or hinder their efforts and told Seven to ignore the parameters?

    On the other hand. Captain LaForge FTW!

    CJSF
    "Flipping this one final switch I'm effectively ensuring that I will be
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    "Once Upon A Time" was cute, and I like that they handled a heavy subject like that, as well as a couple of episodes before, with "Extreme Risk". B'elanna's depression and self-harm were well done (given the compressed time of an episode) and hit a bit close to home as of late. So we have ancillary evidence that starships can be shuttlecraft factories, too.

    CJSF
    "Flipping this one final switch I'm effectively ensuring that I will be
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    Vaporized with extreme prejudice and shot into outer space.

    I'll be haunting you."

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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by CJSF View Post
    We watched the 2 part "Year of Hell"... As the ship is getting more and more heavily damaged
    I read a bunch of other viewers at the time who mostly like that but were also disappointed that it didn't get to grow into its potential; the general consensus seemed to be that it represented a great opportunity to take the show overall in a more compelling direction, but the opportunity was then missed by limiting it to two episodes and resetting at the end.

    Then it was officially revealed that that description was actually close to the actual history behind the writing & production: it had started out as the overall structure for at least one whole season, then that got overruled by the "everything needs to stay the same" side, and the people who had come up with the idea of turning the series in that direction were told to just do an episode or two of it, which just wasn't nearly enough time for what they'd actually proposed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
    I read a bunch of other viewers at the time who mostly like that but were also disappointed that it didn't get to grow into its potential; the general consensus seemed to be that it represented a great opportunity to take the show overall in a more compelling direction, but the opportunity was then missed by limiting it to two episodes and resetting at the end.

    Then it was officially revealed that that description was actually close to the actual history behind the writing & production: it had started out as the overall structure for at least one whole season, then that got overruled by the "everything needs to stay the same" side, and the people who had come up with the idea of turning the series in that direction were told to just do an episode or two of it, which just wasn't nearly enough time for what they'd actually proposed.
    Yeah, as I think has been mentioned up-thread (?), season (or series-long) developed story arcs were just not the norm when Voyager started. So I can see why there would have been a fight over it and it going the way it did. These days, I believe it would be much different... although I think the general positive outlook of Voyager wouldn't survive long.

    CJSF
    "Flipping this one final switch I'm effectively ensuring that I will be
    Overcoming all resistance long after my remains have been
    Vaporized with extreme prejudice and shot into outer space.

    I'll be haunting you."

    -They Might Be Giants, "I'll Be Haunting You"


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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by CJSF View Post
    The "Demon" episode presents some serious potential future issues, too. LOTS of expanded universe fodder there. I find it curious that the dupes all had uniforms on. I guess since they are all themselves in their minds eye, they'd still maybe feel weird being naked in front of crewmates. But still, in any case you now have an entire copy of the Voyager crew on this planet. They tried to tie it up by giving the dupes some strong affinity for the planet itself, but I see this innovative Starfleet crew finding a way to want to explore off this world and maybe even head "home" - or home away from home. Issues. I see issues!
    (Accidentally skipped to "The Disease" and more relevant: "Course: Oblivion")

    .oh.







    WHAT A HORRIBLE EPISODE! What terrible pits of despair were the writers, director and producers in to do that to the fans! OMG!

    CJSF

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    I'll be haunting you."

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    I had the privilege of seeing the late W. Morgan Shepherd in "Bliss" (ep 14) last night. He was at once instantly recognizable, yet wholly the character. This episode sees the friendship between Seven and Naomi Wildman develop further. I thought I'd really dislike this relationship, since it seemed so predictable. But in fact, I really love it. Especially how warm, yet not cuddly, they've done it. I tell you, though. It's amazing Seven hasn't just incarcerated the whole crew in quarters and taken over the mission herself at this point!

    The previous episode ("Gravity"), besides a more-than-usual set of technobabble, was perhaps reaching higher than it was able to grasp. Lori Petty (Noss) sure got around in the 90s, eh? It was fun comparing Noss to Tank Girl, for about 2 seconds, and I began lamenting the 1 hour and 44 minutes of my life I will never get back from watching that movie.

    CJSF
    "Flipping this one final switch I'm effectively ensuring that I will be
    Overcoming all resistance long after my remains have been
    Vaporized with extreme prejudice and shot into outer space.

    I'll be haunting you."

    -They Might Be Giants, "I'll Be Haunting You"


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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by CJSF View Post
    (Accidentally skipped to "The Disease" and more relevant: "Course: Oblivion")

    .oh.







    WHAT A HORRIBLE EPISODE! What terrible pits of despair were the writers, director and producers in to do that to the fans! OMG!
    I've wondered about that myself...Course:Oblivion seemed specifically designed to kill off any possibility of a follow-on to the Demon episode. That in fact seemed to be the one and only reason for that episode's existence, and they contrived a plot that was inconsistent with the original in significant ways to do it. I've wondered if someone on the writing team just utterly hated that particular episode for some reason.

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    OK, now I know the Borg/Federation timeline is off. In "Dark Frontier" (2 part), the Raven (the Hansens' ship) is sent off to research the Borg a decade before the Enterprise investigates the destruction of the planets along the Neutral Zone and the events of "Q Who". It's quite a retcon to have Starfleet aware of the Borg in the 2360s enough to send not only reckless "explorers" but ones with enough know-how and technology to evade detection and to perform in situ experiments a la the creepy aliens in "Scientific Method" (Season 4, ep 7). Sure, maybe the Federation/Starfleet had decades prior knowledge, but none of the events in TNG (TV or movies) indicate that's at all true.

    CJSF
    "Flipping this one final switch I'm effectively ensuring that I will be
    Overcoming all resistance long after my remains have been
    Vaporized with extreme prejudice and shot into outer space.

    I'll be haunting you."

    -They Might Be Giants, "I'll Be Haunting You"


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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by CJSF View Post
    OK, now I know the Borg/Federation timeline is off. In "Dark Frontier" (2 part), the Raven (the Hansens' ship) is sent off to research the Borg a decade before the Enterprise investigates the destruction of the planets along the Neutral Zone and the events of "Q Who". It's quite a retcon to have Starfleet aware of the Borg in the 2360s enough to send not only reckless "explorers" but ones with enough know-how and technology to evade detection and to perform in situ experiments a la the creepy aliens in "Scientific Method" (Season 4, ep 7). Sure, maybe the Federation/Starfleet had decades prior knowledge, but none of the events in TNG (TV or movies) indicate that's at all true.

    CJSF
    SPOILER ALERT:



    Wait until you watch Enterprise. They screw up the ENTIRE history of Star Trek canon. "Berman & Braga; They Just Don't Care!"TM
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    SPOILER ALERT:



    Wait until you watch Enterprise. They screw up the ENTIRE history of Star Trek canon. "Berman & Braga; They Just Don't Care!"TM
    Oh, I've seen Enterprise. I actually liked it, on the whole, but I personally chalked up all the inconsistencies with the timeline to the temporal cold war. Which I suppose one can do with ALL of Trek, if you overthink it.

    CJSF
    "Flipping this one final switch I'm effectively ensuring that I will be
    Overcoming all resistance long after my remains have been
    Vaporized with extreme prejudice and shot into outer space.

    I'll be haunting you."

    -They Might Be Giants, "I'll Be Haunting You"


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  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by CJSF View Post
    Oh, I've seen Enterprise. I actually liked it, on the whole, but I personally chalked up all the inconsistencies with the timeline to the temporal cold war. Which I suppose one can do with ALL of Trek, if you overthink it.

    CJSF
    I always hearken back to the TNG episode "Parallels", and its enormous multiverse of possible worlds. In my own head-canon, everything that aired after DS9 happened in slightly alternate universes.

    I think Discovery also has a link to a multiverse, through their "spore drive" that can reach other dimensions and times. I haven't seen that show yet so I can't comment in detail.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    I always hearken back to the TNG episode "Parallels", and its enormous multiverse of possible worlds. In my own head-canon, everything that aired after DS9 happened in slightly alternate universes.

    I think Discovery also has a link to a multiverse, through their "spore drive" that can reach other dimensions and times. I haven't seen that show yet so I can't comment in detail.
    Yes, I have sometimes though similarly, vis-a-vis "Parallels". I haven't decided if I'll ever bother with Discovery, from what I've heard.

    CJSF
    "Flipping this one final switch I'm effectively ensuring that I will be
    Overcoming all resistance long after my remains have been
    Vaporized with extreme prejudice and shot into outer space.

    I'll be haunting you."

    -They Might Be Giants, "I'll Be Haunting You"


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  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swift View Post
    Yes and yes. Generally hate time travel and Mirror Universe Star Trek. And I hate Q episodes.
    I LOVE all three, but I have to tell you, it's for reasons that have nothing to do with story. I would find it wholly gratifying if all three had standalone pieces that had nothing to do with Star Trek. The problem with that model is you need a new TV show to do it. Mirror Universe, Time Travel and Q episodes were written in a way that didn't allow for planning any sort of follow up, let alone a series. Sci-Fi anthology shows are pretty rare.

    I would like to say to writers, "Gee, that's great but it doesn't have to be Trek." There is some excellent banter, dynamics, etc. but they really could be something other than Trek. I get the sense that the Orville is good because "it knows" about Star Trek, but isn't Star Trek. I have to say I've never seen an episode, but the descriptions I've read are along those lines.
    Solfe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Solfe View Post
    Sci-Fi anthology shows are pretty rare.
    Best sci fi anthology shows of 2019.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    Sweet!
    Solfe

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    Janeway needs to get home within a year or so () before she completely loses herself! She was positively evil in "Equinox". I thought the story showed just how "lucky" Voyager has been to be on "this" side of the line to not have to resort to horrible horrible decisions and descend into the selfish vileness the Equinox crew ended up in. At least the show is self-aware of what's happening to her. She is (as I think some posters have said in this thread) increasingly authoritarian and isolating.

    Leading up to this episode we had a very explosively emotional Robert Picardo as the warhead AI via the EMH ("Warhead"). I'm less sure I like the direction they are taking Harry Kim's personality.

    "Relativity" was another makes-no-sense-so-it-makes-sense time travel episode. The handwaving "reintegration" is ... problematic. Also, arresting someone before they committed a crime, even *knowing* that the future is not fixed, is a horrible policy. Shades of Minority Report there.

    And I promise I'm trying to like the Paris/Torres pairing, but.. eehh..

    CJSF
    "Flipping this one final switch I'm effectively ensuring that I will be
    Overcoming all resistance long after my remains have been
    Vaporized with extreme prejudice and shot into outer space.

    I'll be haunting you."

    -They Might Be Giants, "I'll Be Haunting You"


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  20. #80
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    They are taking Harry Kim in a direction?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glom View Post
    They are taking Harry Kim in a direction?
    Making him more assertive and cocky. The confidence makes sense, after 5 years on a starship, but somehow some of it seems forced. Maybe it's an anomaly of the few episodes so far. The show has been less consistent in the 5th and so far 6th season.

    CJSF
    "Flipping this one final switch I'm effectively ensuring that I will be
    Overcoming all resistance long after my remains have been
    Vaporized with extreme prejudice and shot into outer space.

    I'll be haunting you."

    -They Might Be Giants, "I'll Be Haunting You"


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    Quote Originally Posted by cjameshuff View Post
    I've wondered about that myself...Course:Oblivion seemed specifically designed to kill off any possibility of a follow-on to the Demon episode. That in fact seemed to be the one and only reason for that episode's existence, and they contrived a plot that was inconsistent with the original in significant ways to do it. I've wondered if someone on the writing team just utterly hated that particular episode for some reason.
    I've recently read interviews that dealt with this very episode, and the writers and directors thought they were doing something GOOD and DEEP touching upon Meaningful Themes and Exploring The Human Condition.. .WHAT? That episode was cruel as cruel, dude. Sorry.

    CJSF
    "Flipping this one final switch I'm effectively ensuring that I will be
    Overcoming all resistance long after my remains have been
    Vaporized with extreme prejudice and shot into outer space.

    I'll be haunting you."

    -They Might Be Giants, "I'll Be Haunting You"


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    OK, "Memorial" was brutal! The actors sure got to stretch their legs a bit, though! That was pretty intense. I rather liked it, as hard as it was.

    Prior, "Virtuoso" was a bit pointless. I guess Robert Picardo needed another episode to show off his singing. It was a shame that Seven wasn't given any chance to show off (probably unwillingly), as her singing is/was at least as mathematically precise as the Doctor's.

    CJSF
    "Flipping this one final switch I'm effectively ensuring that I will be
    Overcoming all resistance long after my remains have been
    Vaporized with extreme prejudice and shot into outer space.

    I'll be haunting you."

    -They Might Be Giants, "I'll Be Haunting You"


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    OH, and going backwards again, "Blink of an Eye" I did like, quite a bit! The pseudo "cavemen" were a bit much, but I like the progression through the culture's ages and the ultimate solution was "acceptable", as Seven might say.

    CJSF
    "Flipping this one final switch I'm effectively ensuring that I will be
    Overcoming all resistance long after my remains have been
    Vaporized with extreme prejudice and shot into outer space.

    I'll be haunting you."

    -They Might Be Giants, "I'll Be Haunting You"


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    "Ashes to Ashes" is just an all around mistake, IMO. The timeline doesn't add up for that to really be this "Lyndsay Ballard", but it is indeed a resurrected crewman! The way the whole thing unfolded and concluded was unsatisfying. This crush and pining and then losing of a close crewmate, by Harry, just doesn't ring true, given that HE NEVER MENTIONED HER, and we have had so many episodes of Tom either goading Harry to try dating someone (real or hologram) or chiding him for "picking the wrong one" consistently. It was just badly shoehorned into the show, this episode.

    I'm not sure how I feel about the Borg children. The effect they have had upon Seven and her at first hapless attempts to corral them would be more endearing if they weren't so predictable. I'd like to see more interaction and adaptation among them and Naomi Wildman. Icheb's parents might seem to be monsters at first, but I thought the writers did a reasonable job presenting the moral dilemma they faced and how they decided to fight back. War exacts a terrible price, no matter how you slice it.

    CJSF
    "Flipping this one final switch I'm effectively ensuring that I will be
    Overcoming all resistance long after my remains have been
    Vaporized with extreme prejudice and shot into outer space.

    I'll be haunting you."

    -They Might Be Giants, "I'll Be Haunting You"


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    We just wound up Season 6 and started 7. There were a couple of filler episodes in there, including Fair Haven. The ethical implications first raised on the Enterprise-D regarding its Moriarty and related characters has only escalated with both the advancement of holodecks, and with AI fused with the tech (like the EMH). It was all fun and casino games with Vic Fontaine on DS9 as a "special case", but it seems to me that all the characters in Fair Haven reached some level of sentience. If this has become the norm for holocharacters, what does that say for their rights and status Federation-wide?

    The Borg kids are cute, but used inconsistently. They seem to have no real relevance except to interject some subtle humor at Seven's expense. They were nowhere at all to be found in "Unimatrix Zero", despite the natural fit such characters should have had to the episodes. Related: The Borg Queen's cryptic statement to Harry went unaddressed. I spent the entire 2 parter wondering what was going to happen to him. R.I.P. Delta Flyer.

    CJSF
    "Flipping this one final switch I'm effectively ensuring that I will be
    Overcoming all resistance long after my remains have been
    Vaporized with extreme prejudice and shot into outer space.

    I'll be haunting you."

    -They Might Be Giants, "I'll Be Haunting You"


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    You're at a point well past when I wasn't watching anymore, and I will never accept the idea of a "Borg queen" (or,, in a species where one individual was so pivotal and whose nature wasn't supposed to be the exact opposite of such radical centralization, the idea of enemies ever being allowed access to the most important individual of all)... but now you've made me curious what she said to Harry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
    You're at a point well past when I wasn't watching anymore, and I will never accept the idea of a "Borg queen" (or,, in a species where one individual was so pivotal and whose nature wasn't supposed to be the exact opposite of such radical centralization, the idea of enemies ever being allowed access to the most important individual of all)... but now you've made me curious what she said to Harry.
    The Queen idea was invented for the First Contact film, and the inexplicable contradictions continue in her incarnation for "Voyager", as she should be dead and the Borg in some state of disarray. But as with most things Trek, there's an expansive abandonment of prior and important events. At one point in one of the "Queen" episodes, she mentions that no other Borg had gained individuality - blithely ignoring Hugh and the Borg faction under Lore's command. But it tied into the movie(s), and worked in ratings' favor, I suppose.

    I'm well into the 7th season now, and the peculiarities of photonic (holographic) life and sentience are really rolling. Also, like many fans, I manage to ignore the need for a Universal Translator most of the time, but when the plot needs to move forward with the Voyager crew being able to read and operate a completely "alien" computer or OS (and the "aliens" dong the same with Voyager), it gets a bit tough. The writers have settled in to having Janeway's predilection for authoritarianism blunted by Chakotay's wise philosophy. But earlier comments about her tyranny are now well appreciated. If the development of her character into this was intentional, it is a little sad in how close this series came to something more modern, with deep character arcs and a tighter story. Don't misunderstand, I am enjoying the show and I appreciate it as Trek. But I worry about how they plan to end it (I've seen a few spoilers - for me - that have me a bit concerned).

    CJSF
    "Flipping this one final switch I'm effectively ensuring that I will be
    Overcoming all resistance long after my remains have been
    Vaporized with extreme prejudice and shot into outer space.

    I'll be haunting you."

    -They Might Be Giants, "I'll Be Haunting You"


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    Quote Originally Posted by CJSF View Post
    The Queen idea was invented for the First Contact film, and the inexplicable contradictions continue in her incarnation for "Voyager", as she should be dead and the Borg in some state of disarray. But as with most things Trek, there's an expansive abandonment of prior and important events. At one point in one of the "Queen" episodes, she mentions that no other Borg had gained individuality - blithely ignoring Hugh and the Borg faction under Lore's command. But it tied into the movie(s), and worked in ratings' favor, I suppose.

    I'm well into the 7th season now, and the peculiarities of photonic (holographic) life and sentience are really rolling. Also, like many fans, I manage to ignore the need for a Universal Translator most of the time, but when the plot needs to move forward with the Voyager crew being able to read and operate a completely "alien" computer or OS (and the "aliens" dong the same with Voyager), it gets a bit tough. The writers have settled in to having Janeway's predilection for authoritarianism blunted by Chakotay's wise philosophy. But earlier comments about her tyranny are now well appreciated. If the development of her character into this was intentional, it is a little sad in how close this series came to something more modern, with deep character arcs and a tighter story. Don't misunderstand, I am enjoying the show and I appreciate it as Trek. But I worry about how they plan to end it (I've seen a few spoilers - for me - that have me a bit concerned).

    CJSF
    The Borg created Locutus as a persona for the Federation to interact with while they were being assimilated. The First Contact Queen could have been a more generic variation of the same, assembled to a standardized design as needed, something to provide the illusion of a familiar hierarchy of control. But the "tool for psychological manipulation" interpretation isn't particularly compatible with Voyager's depiction, which seemed to be exactly what she first appeared to be: a centralized controlling intelligence for the Borg.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CJSF View Post
    The Queen idea was invented for the First Contact film, and the inexplicable contradictions continue in her incarnation for "Voyager", as she should be dead and the Borg in some state of disarray.
    The BQ was literally built by the Borg in First Contact. When she was destroyed maybe they just assembled a new one.
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