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Thread: "Endgame" SPOILER thread

  1. #1
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    "Endgame" SPOILER thread

    I finally saw "Avengers: Endgame," and I don't see a spoiler-friendly thread on it yet, so I figured I'd start one because...I have questions/issues.

    The scene at the end where Peter Parker returns to school and sees his friend Ned should have been filmed differently. It seemed to suggest that Ned was surprised to see Peter back, but Ned was obviously one of the "resurrected" himself. If he wasn't, he should be five years older than Peter and no longer at the same school.

    Old Captain America shouldn't have been there at the end (and I *hate* it when time-travel movies don't follow their own established rules of time-travel, even for otherwise touching throw-away scenes like this). Traveling back in time and changing the past creates new timelines, per the conversations the characters had and every other scene in the movie, so the timeline in which Cap lived a long happy life with Peggy should not have been the same timeline as we were watching at the end.

    And, given the established rules, was there even any point in going back in time to return the stones? Let's just look at the Time Stone. In the original timeline (Timeline A), the Ancient One used the Stone to help defend New York during the 2012 attack and eventually turns the Stone over to Dr. Strange, who in turn gives it to Thanos. In "Endgame," Banner convinces the Ancient One to let him take the Stone into the future, thereby creating a new timeline (Timeline B), in which the Stone disappears from reality at that point - she no longer gives it to Strange, who no longer gives it to Thanos. Then Captain America goes back to 2012 to return the Stone to the Ancient One. But wouldn't that simply create another new timeline (Timeline C), in which the Stone is momentarily gone but almost immediately returned? Timeline B, in which the universe continues without it, would still exist, wouldn't it? Just like Timeline A still existed after Banner took the Time Stone out of Timeline B? In which case, what's the point of creating Timeline C?

    Either way, the real question...Loki. In Timeline A, the events of 2012 (ie, the first "Avengers" movie) ended with the Ancient One still having the Time Stone, Shield/Hydra having both the Space Stone (the Tesseract) and the Mind Stone (Loki's staff), and Loki in Asgardian custody. In Timeline B, the Time and Mind Stones disappeared from reality in 2012, but Loki took the Space Stone and used it to escape. When Captain America "corrected" 2012 at the end of "Endgame", he would've returned the Time Stone to the Ancient One and the Mind Stone to Shield, but he had to return the Space Stone (the only Space Stone he had) to 1970. He didn't have a Space Stone to return to Shield in 2012, and he certainly didn't have Loki to return to custody. Whether his actions simply changed Timeline B or created a new Timeline C, that timeline would still have Loki running free with the Space Stone.

    A possible way for Loki to return in future movies (I think I read that "Thor 4" was in preproduction)?

    Also, I kind of like the way they brought Gamora back, but it seems like Cap could've brought Tony and Nat back in the same way...
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    The scene at the end where Peter Parker returns to school and sees his friend Ned should have been filmed differently. It seemed to suggest that Ned was surprised to see Peter back, but Ned was obviously one of the "resurrected" himself. If he wasn't, he should be five years older than Peter and no longer at the same school.
    Ned was pleasantly surprised to see his best friend was also one of the resurrected, and thus they could continue where they left off, in a school where they had both skipped five years, together.

    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    Old Captain America shouldn't have been there at the end (and I *hate* it when time-travel movies don't follow their own established rules of time-travel, even for otherwise touching throw-away scenes like this). Traveling back in time and changing the past creates new timelines, per the conversations the characters had and every other scene in the movie, so the timeline in which Cap lived a long happy life with Peggy should not have been the same timeline as we were watching at the end.
    He didn't go back and change the past. He was always Peggy's husband. He was with her, whilst his other self was frozen for all those years. He grew old with her and was also at her funeral. He knew how everything would play out, and just kept out of the way for all that time, as he had already done everything he needed to do, in his own past.

    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    And, given the established rules, was there even any point in going back in time to return the stones? Let's just look at the Time Stone. In the original timeline (Timeline A), the Ancient One used the Stone to help defend New York during the 2012 attack and eventually turns the Stone over to Dr. Strange, who in turn gives it to Thanos. In "Endgame," Banner convinces the Ancient One to let him take the Stone into the future, thereby creating a new timeline (Timeline B), in which the Stone disappears from reality at that point - she no longer gives it to Strange, who no longer gives it to Thanos.
    Cap immediately returned the stone, so she still gives it to Strange who gives it to Thanos. Timeline B would only be created if Cap didn't return the stone.

    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    Then Captain America goes back to 2012 to return the Stone to the Ancient One. But wouldn't that simply create another new timeline (Timeline C), in which the Stone is momentarily gone but almost immediately returned? Timeline B, in which the universe continues without it, would still exist, wouldn't it?
    Not if it was returned to the same moment. As Bruce turns around and walks off, Cap pops out from cover and hands it back. The only difference is what the Ancient One could have possibly done differently in the absence of the stone between those two events, only a scant moment apart, but she didn't appear to be actually using the time stone during the battle of New York, so there is no change to the timeline.

    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    Just like Timeline A still existed after Banner took the Time Stone out of Timeline B? In which case, what's the point of creating Timeline C?
    I don't think any new timelines were created, as Cap returned the stone.

    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    Either way, the real question...Loki. In Timeline A, the events of 2012 (ie, the first "Avengers" movie) ended with the Ancient One still having the Time Stone, Shield/Hydra having both the Space Stone (the Tesseract) and the Mind Stone (Loki's staff), and Loki in Asgardian custody. In Timeline B, the Time and Mind Stones disappeared from reality in 2012, but Loki took the Space Stone and used it to escape. When Captain America "corrected" 2012 at the end of "Endgame", he would've returned the Time Stone to the Ancient One and the Mind Stone to Shield, but he had to return the Space Stone (the only Space Stone he had) to 1970. He didn't have a Space Stone to return to Shield in 2012, and he certainly didn't have Loki to return to custody. Whether his actions simply changed Timeline B or created a new Timeline C, that timeline would still have Loki running free with the Space Stone.
    Yup, Loki escaping with the Tesseract created a new timeline, an alternate universe that will probably be the setting for his upcoming TV series.

    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    Also, I kind of like the way they brought Gamora back, but it seems like Cap could've brought Tony and Nat back in the same way...
    A different Gamora from a different timeline where Thanos never collected the stones and did the snap, but instead took his whole entourage (his armies, all this sidekicks and both his daughters) forward in time and then got himself and his armies snapped away by Tony. "Our" Nebula eventually killed her younger self from that alternate time-line (which also shows how 2 versions of the same person can co-exist, lending weight to there always being 2 Caps in our timeline).

    Gamora is not "our" Gamora, she never joined the Guardians of the Galaxy or fell in love with Quill.

    Gamora is now in an alternate universe, from her point of view - a universe where she was never sacrificed for the Soul stone - her alternate self was sacrificed five years earlier, *after* the soul stone was returned by Cap (but Nat is already dead then).

    Nat and Tony can't come back, unless someone decides to bring earlier, younger versions of them from alternate universes.
    Last edited by speedfreek; 2019-Sep-03 at 09:48 PM. Reason: Clarity

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    I've got a somewhat different question for this thread, assuming it is intended for all Endgame topics.

    Here's the famous shot of the assembled 'goodies' attacking in the final battle.
    https://www.screengeek.net/wp-conten...l-battle-1.jpg

    I recognise everyone in this image, more or less, except for the four individuals in the lower left corner. They look like two Asgardians (?) and two blue-skinned aliens of unknown provenance. Any ideas?

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    Quote Originally Posted by speedfreek View Post
    Ned was pleasantly surprised to see his best friend was also one of the resurrected, and thus they could continue where they left off, in a school where they had both skipped five years, together.
    Yes, I agree that that's the logical conclusion - it just seemed to me like, the way it was filmed, they were implying Ned wasn't one of the resurrected. I might have to watch it again, but at any rate it's a minor nit.

    Quote Originally Posted by speedfreek View Post
    He didn't go back and change the past. He was always Peggy's husband. He was with her, whilst his other self was frozen for all those years. He grew old with her and was also at her funeral. He knew how everything would play out, and just kept out of the way for all that time, as he had already done everything he needed to do, in his own past.
    He had to go back in time to become Peggy's husband, for there to be an "other self".

    Quote Originally Posted by speedfreek View Post
    Cap immediately returned the stone, so she still gives it to Strange who gives it to Thanos. Timeline B would only be created if Cap didn't return the stone.
    ...
    Not if it was returned to the same moment. As Bruce turns around and walks off, Cap pops out from cover and hands it back. The only difference is what the Ancient One could have possibly done differently in the absence of the stone between those two events, only a scant moment apart, but she didn't appear to be actually using the time stone during the battle of New York, so there is no change to the timeline.

    I don't think any new timelines were created, as Cap returned the stone.
    That (and old Captain America) are inconsistent with the way time travel was described and presented in the rest of the movie. You can't go back in time and change a timeline, you can only create new timelines. That was explicit. They pulled all the Stones (not to mention Thanos and Gamora) out of the past before the events of "Infinity War" could occur, but the timeline in which those events did occur still exists. Thanos and Gamora were pulled into that timeline.

    Banner going back and taking the Time Stone didn't simply change the "Time Stone is Given to Strange" timeline into a "Time Stone Disappears" timeline. It created a whole new "Time Stone Disappears" timeline and left the "Time Stone is Given to Strange" timeline intact. So why would Cap returning the Stone simply change the "Time Stone Disappears" timeline into a "Time Stone Disappears and Immediately Reappears" timeline, rather than creating a whole new timeline and leaving the "Time Stone Disappears" timeline intact?

    What you're proposing is not inconsistent with theories of time travel, in general, but it is entirely inconsistent with the theory of time travel as established in this movie.

    Quote Originally Posted by speedfreek View Post
    A different Gamora from a different timeline where Thanos never collected the stones and did the snap, but instead took his whole entourage (his armies, all this sidekicks and both his daughters) forward in time and then got himself and his armies snapped away by Tony. "Our" Nebula eventually killed her younger self from that alternate time-line (which also shows how 2 versions of the same person can co-exist, lending weight to there always being 2 Caps in our timeline).

    Gamora is not "our" Gamora, she never joined the Guardians of the Galaxy or fell in love with Quill.
    She's not a different Gamora for whom those things never happened, she's the same Gamora at a point in her life at which those things haven't happened yet.

    Cap could go back and grab Nat just before she and Hawkeye went over the cliff, and bring her back. It would be the exact same Nat who died, not some kind of alternate version, just still alive. And it would simply create a new timeline in which Hawkeye was unable to return the Soul Stone, but the timeline in which he did and they defeated Thanos would still exist and both Cap and Nat would be in it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    She's not a different Gamora for whom those things never happened, she's the same Gamora at a point in her life at which those things haven't happened yet.
    Well, except that she doesn't look like a flying turtle anymore and is not a Friend of Children. So that's weird, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    He had to go back in time to become Peggy's husband, for there to be an "other self".
    You misunderstand me. I meant he didn't go back in time *and change the past* we know of. He went back in time and existed in the same timeline as his younger frozen self, all along. He was an old man in the background in all the previous avengers movies, after his younger self was thawed out. There were two Caps in the main timeline, all along - chronological Cap the first avenger frozen for 70 years and then revived, and back from the future Cap, growing older while all that happened.

    I'm saying he didn't create a *different* timeline to the one we have been watching by going back in time and living out his life with Peggy. It was the same timeline as all the previous movies were set in.

    Old Cap was the pallbearer at the rear of her coffin, as seen in a previous Captain America film. We just didn't know it was him.

    As an old man, he already knew the time and place from where he was sent back to return the stones (and never used Pym particles to return through time to), so he just made sure to go there as an old man on the day and sit on that bench overlooking the water. He could have been sitting there even before they sent his younger self back.

    This means, of course, that at certain times there were 3 or even 4 Captain Americas simultaneously alive on Earth in the same timeline! Time heist Cap in NY, original battle of NY Cap, returning the time stone Cap, whilst Old Cap is somewhere else too, living his life.

    This isn't to say there aren't alternative timelines where he didn't go back and live out his life with Peggy. I'm saying we don't know about all the other alternative timelines.
    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    That (and old Captain America) are inconsistent with the way time travel was described and presented in the rest of the movie. You can't go back in time and change a timeline, you can only create new timelines. That was explicit.
    And that is what I meant - the absence of the time stone would create a new timeline where the Ancient One didn't have the stone to give Strange. But that timeline wasn't created, because Cap returned the stone.

    It was also explicitly established that no new timelines would exist if the stones were returned to the moment they were taken from. That's what Cap did.

    All I meant when I referred to the Ancient One not using the time stone in the battle of NY during the moment it was gone was - that would have been a change that created an alternate time-line where something didn't happen in one timeline that did happen in another. But that is moot, as the stone was returned to the moment it was taken from.

    And as for old Cap, it was consistent with how time travel was described and executed in the movie. He went back in time and lived happily ever after with Peggy. My (and the writers) take is that didn't change the past (create a new timeline), it was the past in the timeline we have been watching all along.

    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    They pulled all the Stones (not to mention Thanos and Gamora) out of the past before the events of "Infinity War" could occur, but the timeline in which those events did occur still exists. Thanos and Gamora were pulled into that timeline.

    Banner going back and taking the Time Stone didn't simply change the "Time Stone is Given to Strange" timeline into a "Time Stone Disappears" timeline. It created a whole new "Time Stone Disappears" timeline and left the "Time Stone is Given to Strange" timeline intact. So why would Cap returning the Stone simply change the "Time Stone Disappears" timeline into a "Time Stone Disappears and Immediately Reappears" timeline, rather than creating a whole new timeline and leaving the "Time Stone Disappears" timeline intact?
    Because the time stone was returned to the same moment as it disappeared, meaning it stayed in the original infinity war timeline and a new timeline was never created.

    In the Infinity War timeline, during the battle of New York, future Hulk got the time stone from the Ancient One, and future Cap immediately returned it. This was happening in the Avengers Assemble movie, in the background, but we didn't know that.

    Therefore, it was always a "time stone disappears and reappears, changing nothing" timeline.

    A new "time stone disappeared" timeline would only have been created if Cap didn't return the time stone. But he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    What you're proposing is not inconsistent with theories of time travel, in general, but it is entirely inconsistent with the theory of time travel as established in this movie.
    I don't think it is, although my wording might have been confusing.

    No new timelines would be created if the stones were returned to the moment they were taken from. That's what happened.

    You cannot change the past. If you travel from the future into the past, that future becomes *your* past, which cannot be changed. However, new timelines can be created instead.

    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    She's not a different Gamora for whom those things never happened, she's the same Gamora at a point in her life at which those things haven't happened yet.
    That is true. Gamora and Thanos have been transported forward in time, to a future where she was sacrificed by Thanos and has been dead for five years, and Thanos had his head chopped off by Thor around a month after she died.

    In the living Gamora's timeline, none of this happened to her yet, but she is now inhabiting a timeline where it did happen in the past. Perhaps we need a new term for that..

    ..But to me, it seems that, if the rules are that:

    *You cannot change the past, you can only create new timelines*

    The Gamora alive at the end of Endgame has a different past to the Gamora who was sacrificed in Infinity War.

    Infinity war Gamora didn't meet her sister Nebula who came back from the future. This happened before the events of Infinity War, but it didn't happen to the version of Gamora we know from Infinity War. Thusly, the Gamora alive at the end of Endgame is from a "changed" timeline (where she met her sister from the future) which means a different timeline.

    Those events - the two Nebula co-existing with Gamora in the past, Thanos finding out about the Avengers plans (not to prevent him collecting the stones and doing the snap, but to collect the stones themselves from earlier in time to use them to return all the lost souls but maintain the timeline so that people keep their post-snap history) and Thanos deciding to travel forward, are in a different timeline from the timeline we saw lead up to the events of Infinity War.

    The events of the past, Thanos collecting all the stones and doing the snap, have been "changed" (new timeline). Instead, he and Gamora went forward in time and he died, but she didn't - new timeline.

    To me, that means they have to be from a different timeline, as *you cannot change the past*

    As far as I can tell, there were two new timelines created in Endgame. The "Loki steals the Tesseract and disappears with it" and "Thanos dies without ever collecting the stones, sacrificing Gamora and doing the snap" timeline.

    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    Cap could go back and grab Nat just before she and Hawkeye went over the cliff, and bring her back. It would be the exact same Nat who died, not some kind of alternate version, just still alive. And it would simply create a new timeline in which Hawkeye was unable to return the Soul Stone, but the timeline in which he did and they defeated Thanos would still exist and both Cap and Nat would be in it.
    In the Endgame time-line, Nat died in the past.

    You cannot change the past. If you travel from the future into the past, that future becomes *your* past, which cannot be changed. However, new timelines can be created instead.
    Last edited by speedfreek; 2019-Sep-04 at 05:07 PM. Reason: Clarity - timely wimey stuff is hard to describe clearly!

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    Cap caused the Cap-Peggy marriage the exact same way Stark caused Loki to steal the Tesseract - Pym-particle-assisted time travel. It makes zero sense for the Cap-Peggy marriage to exist in the same timeline Cap originally left, whereas Loki stealing the Tesseract is a separate timeline distinct from the one Stark originally left.

    Either one could work, but they can't both work in the same movie.

    I get what you're saying about "Cap and Peggy were always married", but the movie explicitly says - through both exposition and demonstration - that that's not how it works.

    Same with Banner taking the Time Stone and Cap returning the Time Stone - they were two different time travel actions using the same technology. For one to create a new timeline while the other modifies an existing timeline is contradictory.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    Cap caused the Cap-Peggy marriage the exact same way Stark caused Loki to steal the Tesseract - Pym-particle-assisted time travel. It makes zero sense for the Cap-Peggy marriage to exist in the same timeline Cap originally left, whereas Loki stealing the Tesseract is a separate timeline distinct from the one Stark originally left.
    We saw, in Avengers Assemble, how Thor took a captured Loki and the Tesseract back to Asgard at the end of the movie. So we know Loki's stealing the Tesseract and disappearing is a change, which creates a new timeline.

    We never saw who Peggy married. It could have been Cap back from the future. The rear pallbearer at her funeral could well have been him, it looks like a tall silver haired man.

    There might be a *different* timeline where Cap didn't go back and marry Peggy, but we know nothing about that timeline. The Endgame timeline has Cap going back in time and living his days out with Peggy.

    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    Either one could work, but they can't both work in the same movie.
    Why not? We only know Loki changed things, we don't know whether Cap did.

    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    I get what you're saying about "Cap and Peggy were always married", but the movie explicitly says - through both exposition and demonstration - that that's not how it works.
    I'm not sure it does say that.

    It says you cannot change the past. It says if you travel from the future to the past, the future becomes your past and cannot be changed. It says if you change something, it creates a new timeline (I read that as an alternate universe).

    What I'm saying is the whole "Old Cap" story is the main timeline, not an alternate timeline.

    The directors alluded to the Old Cap story being an alternate timeline, with him somehow using Pym particles and another quantum time machine thing to come back to the Endgame timeline at the end of the movie.

    But.. the actual writers take the other stance, that there were always at least 2 versions of Steve in the main timeline. I like their take best, it's a lot simpler.

    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    Same with Banner taking the Time Stone and Cap returning the Time Stone - they were two different time travel actions using the same technology. For one to create a new timeline while the other modifies an existing timeline is contradictory.
    What I see there is you inferring more than the bare details laid out in the movie.

    Nobody mentioned anything about any consequences of performing two different time travel actions using the same technology.

    Bruce would create a new timeline if the stone wasn't returned to the moment it was taken from. The Ancient One said so. The stone *was* returned to the same moment it was taken from, as far as we know.

    A timeline where the stone wasn't returned, wasn't given to Strange, wasn't given to Thanos and the snap never happened was avoided, by returning the stone such that it never left. I really don't see the problem here.

    There is nothing to indicate the timeline was "modified", at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by speedfreek View Post
    We saw, in Avengers Assemble, how Thor took a captured Loki and the Tesseract back to Asgard at the end of the movie. So we know Loki's stealing the Tesseract and disappearing is a change, which creates a new timeline.

    We never saw who Peggy married. It could have been Cap back from the future. The rear pallbearer at her funeral could well have been him, it looks like a tall silver haired man.

    There might be a *different* timeline where Cap didn't go back and marry Peggy, but we know nothing about that timeline. The Endgame timeline has Cap going back in time and living his days out with Peggy.
    Wait a second - are you suggesting that the old Cap we saw at the end of "Endgame", who had married Peggy 70 years ago, was not a Cap who traveled through time back to the 70s using Pym particles? Because that's the only way it's not an alternate timeline, if Pym particle time travel works the way the movie established it works prior to that scene.

    How, and why, is Cap-marrying-Peggy the "main" timeline but Loki-stealing-the-Tesseract isn't? And Gamora and Thanos disappearing 10 years ago isn't? And I'm asking you for an in-universe explanation of how (and why) Cap's final time-travel affected the timeline differently than every other occurence of time travel.

    Quote Originally Posted by speedfreek View Post
    The directors alluded to the Old Cap story being an alternate timeline, with him somehow using Pym particles and another quantum time machine thing to come back to the Endgame timeline at the end of the movie.

    But.. the actual writers take the other stance, that there were always at least 2 versions of Steve in the main timeline. I like their take best, it's a lot simpler.

    What I see there is you inferring more than the bare details laid out in the movie.
    Well, if the writers intended for Cap's final time travel to somehow be different than every other occurence of time travel in the movie, they maybe should've written that into the movie. I think you are inferring more than the bare details laid out in the movie, not me.

    Quote Originally Posted by speedfreek View Post
    Nobody mentioned anything about any consequences of performing two different time travel actions using the same technology.

    Bruce would create a new timeline if the stone wasn't returned to the moment it was taken from. The Ancient One said so. The stone *was* returned to the same moment it was taken from, as far as we know.
    Why are secondary timelines different than the main timeline? When you make a change to the main timeline, it necessarily creates a secondary timeline, but then you can go change that secondary timeline to your heart's content and it just changes and never creates third (or more) timelines? Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by speedfreek View Post
    A timeline where the stone wasn't returned, wasn't given to Strange, wasn't given to Thanos and the snap never happened was avoided, by returning the stone such that it never left. I really don't see the problem here.
    Well, they didn't return Thanos and Gamora to where they came from, so a timeline where the snap never happened most certainly was not avoided. I mean, the writers did their best to avoid it, I guess...

    Sorry, the time travel in the movie is internally inconsistent, and that bugs me. The scene with Old Cap was the only inconsistency, though (as far as I've been able to tell, anyway). They should've done it differently.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    Wait a second - are you suggesting that the old Cap we saw at the end of "Endgame", who had married Peggy 70 years ago, was not a Cap who traveled through time back to the 70s using Pym particles? Because that's the only way it's not an alternate timeline, if Pym particle time travel works the way the movie established it works prior to that scene.
    No, I'm not suggesting that.

    Cap, first avenger, gets frozen for 70 years, then becomes part of the Avengers. In this movie he time travels back to the battle of New York, where they lose the Tesseract, then back to the 70s to help get the extra Pym particles while Tony gets the Tesseract from an earlier time.

    Then they come back to the present, Hulk snaps everyone back, Tony snaps away Thanos and co.

    Then Cap goes back in time to return all the stones to make sure no extra timelines are created.

    But instead of coming back to the present again, he goes back and lives his life with Peggy instead.

    What is it about the way Pym particle time travel works that prevents this all happening in the timeline we experienced throughout all 22 previous movies?

    Am I missing something obvious?

    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    How, and why, is Cap-marrying-Peggy the "main" timeline but Loki-stealing-the-Tesseract isn't? And Gamora and Thanos disappearing 10 years ago isn't? And I'm asking you for an in-universe explanation of how (and why) Cap's final time-travel affected the timeline differently than every other occurence of time travel.
    We know Loki changed *his* future (new timeline) by stealing the Tesseract, as we had already seen a different future for him in the MCU timeline from previous movies.

    We know Thanos changed his and Gamora's futures (new timeline) by jumping forward, as we had already seen different futures for them in the previous movies, too.

    We have not seen Cap change anything in his future (no new timeline) by going back and living out the rest of his life with Peggy. It contradicts nothing from the previous 22 movies.

    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    Well, if the writers intended for Cap's final time travel to somehow be different than every other occurence of time travel in the movie, they maybe should've written that into the movie. I think you are inferring more than the bare details laid out in the movie, not me.
    What exactly is it about Caps final time travel that you think is different from every other occurence of time travel in the movie?

    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    Why are secondary timelines different than the main timeline? When you make a change to the main timeline, it necessarily creates a secondary timeline, but then you can go change that secondary timeline to your heart's content and it just changes and never creates third (or more) timelines? Why?
    I'm a bit lost as to why you think any new timelines other than Loki stealing the Tesseract and Thanos creating a different future for himself to the one we had already seen were created in the film?

    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    Well, they didn't return Thanos and Gamora to where they came from, so a timeline where the snap never happened most certainly was not avoided. I mean, the writers did their best to avoid it, I guess...
    Yes, I've already agreed that's a new timeline, one where the snap never happened but Thanos jumped forwards and got himself dusted instead.

    None of our heroes created any new timelines. Only Loki and Thanos' actions created new timelines.
    Last edited by speedfreek; 2019-Sep-04 at 09:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by speedfreek View Post
    Then Cap goes back in time to return all the stones to make sure no extra timelines are created.

    But instead of coming back to the present again, he goes back and lives his life with Peggy instead.
    And thereby creates an extra timeline.

    Quote Originally Posted by speedfreek View Post
    What exactly is it about Caps final time travel that you think is different from every other occurence of time travel in the movie?
    Hypothetical question - if Black Widow didn't die in the past but was left there, after the others (including Thanos and Gamora) returned to the "present", wouldn't you be surprised if she showed up at the end of the movie? She would have lived the last five years in a timeline in which Thanos disappeared without ever snapping his fingers - why would she suddenly turn up in the same timeline she left, when the very act of leaving it puts her in a different timeline?

    Why, then, would Old Captain America turn up in the same timeline he left, when the very act of leaving it puts him in a different timeline?

    (Okay, you could possibly argue that a new timeline isn't created until a change is made, but marrying Peggy Carter would certainly be a change).

    There had to be an "original" timeline for the last 70 years, one in which no future characters popped up from the future (and, therefore, in which Peggy Carter was not married to Steve Rogers). Now, we can, if desired, assume that the timeline we've been watching for all these movies was not that original timeline, but rather one created by Rogers (whom we eventually meet as "Old Cap") 70 years ago. But that Cap was defrosted at some unknown point and lived some unknown duration in the original timeline (which we never saw) before travelling back and marrying Carter. The Cap we've been watching was defrosted in 2011 in the alternate timeline and lived a decade or so in the alternate timeline before travelling...where? Supposedly back to marry Peggy, but he's already living in a timeline in which she was married, he just doesn't know it. So it would seem he's going to be awfully disappointed when he gets back there and finds his doppelganger has beaten him to the punch.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    And thereby creates an extra timeline.
    You seem to be saying that merely performing an act of time travel creates a new timeline. I'm not sure why you think that's how it works in the movie. Nobody in the movie said anything to imply that, as far as I can remember.

    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    Hypothetical question - if Black Widow didn't die in the past but was left there, after the others (including Thanos and Gamora) returned to the "present", wouldn't you be surprised if she showed up at the end of the movie? She would have lived the last five years in a timeline in which Thanos disappeared without ever snapping his fingers - why would she suddenly turn up in the same timeline she left, when the very act of leaving it puts her in a different timeline?
    The *act of leaving it* didn't put her in a different timeline. It put her at an earlier point in the same timeline. If she somehow didn't die, she would have seen Cap immediately appear and return the soul stone to maintain the timeline.

    The fact that Thanos changed something some time *after* that, by jumping forward in time, creating a timeline where the snap never happened, was not due to the *act* of Nat travelling back to a different point in the same timeline. Her time travel did not create a new timeline.

    But yes, I would be surprised if she suddenly turned up at the end of the movie in the Endgame timeline where the snap had happened, as her timeline had been diverted onto a different branch, an alternate timeline, some time after she jumped back to help get the Soul stone. But her jumping back to do that was all in the same time line, a new one was only created later.

    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    Why, then, would Old Captain America turn up in the same timeline he left, when the very act of leaving it puts him in a different timeline?
    The very act of leaving it does not necessarily put you in a new timeline. Cap always travelled to different points in the *same* timeline. All the Avengers travelled to different points in the *same* timeline.

    The whole point of the "time heist" was to *not* change the timeline, to keep things as they were, including the snap and the five years after it. To make sure they all ended up back in the same timeline where the snap happened and Tony had a daughter afterwards.

    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    (Okay, you could possibly argue that a new timeline isn't created until a change is made, but marrying Peggy Carter would certainly be a change).
    It wouldn't be a change if that's what actually happened in the previous films. It wouldn't be a change if "Cap from the future" was Peggy's husband all along. There is nothing in any of the previous movies that prevents that being the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    There had to be an "original" timeline for the last 70 years, one in which no future characters popped up from the future (and, therefore, in which Peggy Carter was not married to Steve Rogers).
    Does there? Why?

    And even if there is a timeline like that, it would be an alternate timeline, one we haven't been watching for the past 22 movies. That's my view.

    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    Now, we can, if desired, assume that the timeline we've been watching for all these movies was not that original timeline, but rather one created by Rogers (whom we eventually meet as "Old Cap") 70 years ago.
    Yes we can, although I don't like the term "original". We are watching the main timeline, our timeline, the one we inhabit in the movies.

    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    But that Cap was defrosted at some unknown point and lived some unknown duration in the original timeline (which we never saw) before travelling back and marrying Carter.
    Eh? Now you've lost me. We know nothing of any other timeline like that. If you are referring to a timeline where time travel never happened, perhaps Cap was never found and defrosted. The possibilities are endless. But that's not the timeline from the movies.

    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    The Cap we've been watching was defrosted in 2011 in the alternate timeline and lived a decade or so in the alternate timeline before travelling...where? Supposedly back to marry Peggy, but he's already living in a timeline in which she was married, he just doesn't know it. So it would seem he's going to be awfully disappointed when he gets back there and finds his doppelganger has beaten him to the punch.
    You've really lost me now.

    The Cap we've been watching was defrosted in 2011 in the "main" timeline, lived a decade or so in the "main" timeline before travelling back in time and living with Peggy in the "main" timeline, and staying in the main timeline until he was an old man, as we see in the movie at the end of the main timeline.

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    Quote Originally Posted by speedfreek View Post
    The Cap we've been watching was defrosted in 2011 in the "main" timeline, lived a decade or so in the "main" timeline before travelling back in time and living with Peggy in the "main" timeline, and staying in the main timeline until he was an old man, as we see in the movie at the end of the main timeline.
    Exactly.

    Loki escapes because future Stark came back and threw the Tesseract at his feet - not part of the main timeline.

    Thanos takes Gamora and his army and skips into the quantum realm because future Nebula came back and pinged her own network connection - not part of the main timeline.

    Peggy Carter gets married because future Cap came back and got down on one knee - oh, that's just part of the main timeline.

    Earlier you asked:

    Quote Originally Posted by speedfreek View Post
    What exactly is it about Caps final time travel that you think is different from every other occurence of time travel in the movie?
    Well, there you go. You just described the difference yourself.

    The question is, why is it different? (Barring the simple answer, of course, which is "poor writing")
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    Exactly.

    Loki escapes because future Stark came back and threw the Tesseract at his feet - not part of the main timeline.
    Indeed. And how do we know that was not a part of the main timeline? We know that because we had seen events play out differently in Avengers Assemble - Loki and the Tesseract were taken back to Asgard with Thor.

    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    Thanos takes Gamora and his army and skips into the quantum realm because future Nebula came back and pinged her own network connection - not part of the main timeline.
    And again, we think that creates an alternate timeline, because we saw events play out differently in Infinity War - Thanos didn't skip into the quantum realm, but just travelled around using his armies and minions to collect the stones and then he did the snap.

    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    Peggy Carter gets married because future Cap came back and got down on one knee - oh, that's just part of the main timeline.
    Why not? We have absolutely no evidence to the contrary from any of the previous movies.

    We have Banner going back in the main timeline and persuading the Ancient one to give him the Time stone, and then Cap returning it to the same moment, erasing any alternate timeline at that point. All in the main timeline. This was all happening whilst the battle of New York was happening in Avengers Assemble.

    We have Cap stealing the sceptre in the main timeline after the battle of New York and then returning it to the same moment in the main timeline, erasing any alternative timeline at that point.

    We have Tony stealing the Tesseract from SHEILD in 1970 in the main timeline, and then Cap returning it to same moment in the main timeline, erasing any alternative timeline at that point.

    We have Nebula and War Machine stealing the stone from the Temple in the main timeline, and then Cap returning it to the same moment in that timeline, erasing any alternative timeline at that point. (Plot hole - Quill got knocked out, but presumably wakes up and continues to steal the returned stone?)

    Future Tony hiding behind the screens in his pentouse, whilst his younger self and the rest of the team were talking to Loki, who was asking for that drink. Future Tony was there, in Avengers Assemble, hiding.

    We've had lots of instances of our heroes using the quantum realm to move through time, without creating new timelines and thus we have to assume these events were playing out behind the scenes in the previous movies. Why do we assume Cap didn't go back and live with Peggy during the previous movies?

    This isn't to say there aren't plot holes. A lot of them.

    Cap returning the soul stone to Red Skull would be an interesting scene!

    The fact that, when they set out to do the time-heist, they didn't have enough Pym particles, or even plan to, return the stones to where they were taken from. They didn't care then, about creating alternate timelines. Nobody discussed that until Bruce spoke to the Ancient One.

    Apart from Tony's insistence on not changing the five years of history after the snap, the only references in the movie to alternate timelines were in the conversation with the ancient one:

    Bruce Banner*:*[pleading with The Ancient One for the time stone... ]**Please, please, please...

    The Ancient One*:*I'm sorry, I can't help you, Bruce. If I give up the time stone to help your reality, I'm dooming my own.

    Bruce Banner*:*With all due respect, I'm not sure that science really supports that.

    The Ancient One*:*The Infinity stones create what you experience as the flow of time. Remove one stone and that flow splits. Now, this may benefit your reality but my new one, not so much. In this new branched reality, without our chief weapon against the forces of darkness, our world will be over run. Millions will suffer. So, tell me Doctor, can your science prevent all that?

    Bruce Banner*:*No, but we can erase it. Because once we are done with the stones, we can return each one to it's own time line at the moment it was taken. So, chronologically, in that reality, they never left.

    The Ancient One*:*But you are leaving out the most important part. In order to return the stones, you have to survive.

    Bruce Banner*:*We will, I will. I promise.

    The Ancient One*:*I can't risk this reality on a promise. It is the duty of the Sorcerer Supreme to protect the time stone.

    Bruce Banner*:*Then, why the hell did Strange give it away?

    The Ancient One*:*What did you say?

    Bruce Banner*:*Strange, he gave it away. He gave it to Thanos.

    The Ancient One*:*Willingly?

    Bruce Banner*:*Yes.

    The Ancient One*:*Why?

    Bruce Banner*:*I have no idea. Maybe he made a mistake.

    The Ancient One*:*Or, I did. Strange was meant to be the best of us.

    Bruce Banner*:*So he must have done it for a reason?

    The Ancient One*:*I fear you might be right.

    Bruce Banner*:*[the Ancient One hands over the Time stone to Hulk]**. Thank you.

    The Ancient One*:*I am counting on you, Bruce. We all are.

    ------------------

    So, perhaps, we are barking up the wrong tree about timelines. According to the Ancient One, the stones create the flow of time and removing one causes that flow to split.

    This means Loki's stealing the Tesseract and disappearing could cause the flow to split, but perhaps Thanos jumping forward did something different?

    Perhaps Thanos destroying the stones will cause chaos

    Aren't these the plot holes we are looking for, rather than concentrating on Cap and Peggy, who might always have been together in the main timeline anyway?
    Last edited by speedfreek; 2019-Sep-05 at 03:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by speedfreek View Post
    Why not?
    Well, because I prefer my movies to be internally logically consistent, that's why not.

    That being said:

    Quote Originally Posted by speedfreek View Post
    The Ancient One*:*The Infinity stones create what you experience as the flow of time. Remove one stone and that flow splits.
    Aha! Now, that changes things. So, we do have an in-universe explanation for why Cap's time travel trip back to marry Peggy would be different than the others - it didn't involve removing an Infinity Stone. Nice. Thanks. (And, if I may say so, kudos to the writers).

    Quote Originally Posted by speedfreek View Post
    This means Loki's stealing the Tesseract and disappearing could cause the flow to split, but perhaps Thanos jumping forward did something different?
    You wouldn't think Loki's act would cause a split - presumably, he just used the Space Stone to travel through space, he didn't take the Stone out of the timeline. But if it was Banner, Stark, and Cap removing the Time and Mind Stones from 2012 that caused the split, and Cap repaired that split when he returned those two Stones, then...maybe the timeline in which Loki escaped doesn't actually exist anymore? Neither would the timeline in which Thanos jumped forward, but there wasn't anything especially interesting in that timeline for future stories anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by speedfreek View Post
    Perhaps Thanos destroying the stones will cause chaos.
    Yes, indeed. If the Infinity Stones create the flow of time, and the Infinity Stones no longer exist...
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    It's interesting how different people take different things from these concepts, isn't it?

    And I wonder if it is ever possible to have complete internal logical consistency in a story that involves time travel?

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    Quote Originally Posted by speedfreek View Post
    And I wonder if it is ever possible to have complete internal logical consistency in a story that involves time travel?
    In "a story", almost certainly.

    In "an interesting and entertaining story", maybe not.

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    The Endgame story sticks to two, separate and equally valid conventions of time travel.

    The first one, 'Novikov Consistency', applies in situations where you don't change the past.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noviko...ency_principle
    In this model of time travel, anything that you do in the past is already part of that past timeline, and nothing about the timeline changes. You are only fulfilling the pre-ordained destiny of that timeline. When the Avengers stole the Stones, they were only performing actions which were pre-ordained - and by putting them back, they restored the timeline to its predestined state, ensuring that the timeline was Novikov consistent. The fact that Captain America returned to live in the past was part of the original timeline, and was itself Novikov consistent.

    But a second model of timetravel also occurs in this story; this is the 'Alternate Timeline' model, and it is the exact formulation of timetravel that the Ancient One warned against and which the Avengers were trying to avoid.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_t...nging_the_past
    In fact, for the most part the Avengers were successful in avoiding the creation of an alternate timeline, except in two cases; first, when Loki grabbed the Space Stone and escaped, and secondly when Nebula accidentally synced with her own past self and enabled Thanos to travel into an alternate future to fight the Avengers again.

    Once again; the Peggy Carter marriage timeline was not an alternate timeline, but was the original one.

    It strikes me that there could have been another alternate timeline where Nebula did not get entangled with her former self, and the Power Stone was successfully brought to the future by somebody else; in this case, Professor Hulk performs the snap, everyone comes back to life and Thanos stays dead, safely in the past. This would have been less exciting, but Iron Man would not have had his death scene. When Doctor Strange stated that there was only one alternative that could lead to a successful outcome, perhaps he forgot about this one. Maybe he just didn't like Tony Stark.

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    Incidentally, I think I may have answered my own question from earlier- the mysterious blue-skinned aliens in the final battle (on the side of the 'goodies') were probably supposed to be Ravagers, friends of the departed (and presumably perma-dead) Yondu. They could have included another cameo from Sly Stallone or Michelle Yeoh, but that would have been confusing.

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    Eburacum, as speedfreak quoted from the Ancient One's dialog, it is specifically the removing of an Infinity Stone from the timeline that creates an alternate timeline. For timetravel itself, the movie seems to stick strictly to the Novikov Consistency.

    Quote Originally Posted by eburacum45 View Post
    It strikes me that there could have been another alternate timeline where Nebula did not get entangled with her former self, and the Power Stone was successfully brought to the future by somebody else; in this case, Professor Hulk performs the snap, everyone comes back to life and Thanos stays dead, safely in the past. This would have been less exciting, but Iron Man would not have had his death scene. When Doctor Strange stated that there was only one alternative that could lead to a successful outcome, perhaps he forgot about this one. Maybe he just didn't like Tony Stark.
    Or perhaps in the alternate timeline where it wasn't Nebula who went to get the Power Stone, something else happened that prevented the success of the plan. EDIT: Wait a second - even if such a possibility existed, how could Strange cause it to come into effect rather than the one we saw? He was dusted.
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    Can we consider that the Ancient One might not have been telling the whole story? That her being concerned about protecting the Time Stone means she explained what could happen if it is removed from the timeline, but that doesn't necessarily mean that is the only way to create alternate timelines?

    ------------

    James Rhodes*:*If we can do this, you know, go back in time... why don't we just find baby Thanos, you know, and...

    [Pantomimes strangulation]*

    Hulk*:*Okay, first of all, that's horrible.

    James Rhodes*:*It's Thanos!

    Hulk*:*And secondly, time doesn't work that way. Changing the past doesn't change the future.

    Scott Lang*:*We go back, we get the stones before Thanos gets them, Thanos doesn't have the stones! Problem solved!

    Clint Barton*:*Bingo.

    Nebula*:*That's not how it works!

    Clint Barton*:*Well, that's what I heard.

    Hulk*:*Who told you that?

    James Rhodes*:*Star Trek, Terminator, Timecop, Time After Time...

    Scott Lang*:*Quantum Leap?

    James Rhodes*:*A Wrinkle in Time, Somewhere in Time...

    Scott Lang*:*Hot Tub Time Machine?

    James Rhodes*:*Hot Tub Time Machine, Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure, basically any movie that deals with time travel!

    Scott Lang*:*Die Hard? No, that's not one...

    James Rhodes*:*Look, this is known!

    Hulk*:*I don't know why everyone believes that, but that isn't true. Think about it. If you go into the past, that past becomes your future, and your former present becomes the past, which can't now be changed by your new future!

    Nebula*:*Exactly!

    Scott Lang*:*So, "Back to the Future"'s a bunch of bull?

    ------------------

    I see nothing to prevent alternate timelines like Loki's disappearance, or a younger Nebula being killed by her older self (which, in itself, by definition, simply has to be a changed timeline, as her older self is still alive!)

    Then again, changing her past (killing her younger self) didn't change her future...

    It's all a fudge!

    (None of which prevents Captain America being back to be with Peggy Carter in the original timeline).

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    I can't see why Steve Rogers would go back in time to marry Peggy Carter, but then not lift a finger to prevent the JFK assassination or 9-11.

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