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Thread: Artificial and Organic Intelligence Questions

  1. #31
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    Yet if one would try to recreate something as complicated as one's own mind, I would say it is certainly folly to attempt to do it with some completely different architecture. Penrose thinks the architecture fundamentally involves qubit rather than digit logic. Even if he is wrong about that, the question remains as to what is going on past the last digit of the floating point arithmetic.
    Last edited by Ken G; 2019-Oct-11 at 02:39 PM.

  2. #32
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    I suspect that we'll never have true artificial intelligence but, through clever engineering and programming, we'll eventually have something that's so convincing that we'll come to treat it as intelligent for practical reasons. The question about whether or not it's really intelligent won't come up much in our everyday interactions with it. It will probably be the same for uploaded minds. They'll come to behave so much like the original people that we'll just accept their claims to still be those people just because it's more convenient than always arguing with them. Future generations born into such a society will have an even easier time accepting them.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck View Post
    I suspect that we'll never have true artificial intelligence but, through clever engineering and programming, we'll eventually have something that's so convincing that we'll come to treat it as intelligent for practical reasons. The question about whether or not it's really intelligent won't come up much in our everyday interactions with it. It will probably be the same for uploaded minds. They'll come to behave so much like the original people that we'll just accept their claims to still be those people just because it's more convenient than always arguing with them. Future generations born into such a society will have an even easier time accepting them.
    If they are able to think that they have minds, who are we to say we do and they don't? To me, it smacks of vitalism. We are organic therefore our sense of self counts more than theirs.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  4. #34
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    It is quite possible that a machine could fool most people and still have no emotions, or indeed consciousness. Penrose assumes qubits at body temperature, while simple neurons and synapses already have the necessary dynamic to exhibit spontaneous changes from the same apparent inputs. Bathed in complex changing hormones, plus the random distortions of memory can give us creativity. It’s really difficult to imagine uploading all that.
    sicut vis videre esto
    When we realize that patterns don't exist in the universe, they are a template that we hold to the universe to make sense of it, it all makes a lot more sense.
    Originally Posted by Ken G

  5. #35
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    The first uploaded people will likely be noticeably different from when they were biological, but the engineers and programmers will learn and make improvements until they come close enough to satisfy the friends and relatives of the uploadees. Or most of the friends and relatives. Some won't ever be happy.

  6. #36
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    Are you including death as an option, or is this life imprisonment?
    sicut vis videre esto
    When we realize that patterns don't exist in the universe, they are a template that we hold to the universe to make sense of it, it all makes a lot more sense.
    Originally Posted by Ken G

  7. #37
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    If you say you want to die they'll save your data somewhere and reactivate you every few years to ask you if you're sure.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck View Post
    If you say you want to die they'll save your data somewhere and reactivate you every few years to ask you if you're sure.
    Oh like Facebook you mean? We are nearer than I thought.
    sicut vis videre esto
    When we realize that patterns don't exist in the universe, they are a template that we hold to the universe to make sense of it, it all makes a lot more sense.
    Originally Posted by Ken G

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck View Post
    I suspect that we'll never have true artificial intelligence but, through clever engineering and programming, we'll eventually have something that's so convincing that we'll come to treat it as intelligent for practical reasons.
    What's interesting is that some people think that same process has already occurred in regard to human intelligence! I might even say something political at this moment, but I won't.
    It will probably be the same for uploaded minds. They'll come to behave so much like the original people that we'll just accept their claims to still be those people just because it's more convenient than always arguing with them. Future generations born into such a society will have an even easier time accepting them.
    Personally I don't think there's any difference between a true reality and a completely convincing one. So I think the issue is entirely around whether or not such "people" would ever be able to convince us they were the same people. This issue was raised in "Blade Runner", where it was found that the best way to tell an android from a human was via essentially a deep-seated psychological investigation, looking for different responses in the architecture that expose fundamental differences in cognition. It will certainly be an interesting time if we ever get that far!

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck View Post
    If you say you want to die they'll save your data somewhere and reactivate you every few years to ask you if you're sure.
    So life imprisonment then!
    Imagine the dialog:
    You: I hate this, kill me.
    Them: Well, we'll just turn you off and ask you again tomorrow.
    You: Why would I say something different tomorrow?
    Them: OK, we'll wait a year.
    You: What difference would that make?
    Them: We won't have to listen to you in the meantime.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken G View Post
    Not if Penrose is right and quantum states play a role in how our minds function. If that is true, then you would have to upload your mind to a quantum computer to preserve its function, but quantum mechanics has a "no cloning" theorem, which means you can never copy a quantum state-- each quantum state is an individual entity that can never be either destroyed or copied. So that means there could never also be a 'real you' other than the computerized mind you were transferred into. (Of course, the same mathematics that gives us these theorems gives us the many-worlds interpretation, so if quantum states are important for minds, then what "your mind" is is something vastly larger and more complicated than we already imagine it is.)
    I just wanted to point out that while this is all true, it doesn't actually forbid you from copying your mind into a computer. You are correct that the no cloning theorem shows that you can't copy a quantum state, however my understanding is if the original state is destroyed then you actually can recreate that quantum state exactly. So, while you couldn't "clone" your mind, you could still upload it as long as your ok with your original mind being destroyed in the process. Meaning you can't have 2 copies of your mind, but there is a loophole that will still let you perfectly "copy" (perhaps transfer is a better word?) the quantum states of your mind into a computer, you just have to be willing to die to do this. So I suppose the real question would be how desperately do you want your mind inside a computer? Hehehe.

  12. #42
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    If I'm already dying then I have nothing to lose. If the upload isn't me then I won't be any deader than if I hadn't tried.

  13. #43
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    I think you're on your way to a good sci fi premise. Imagine it, a mega corporation starts selling "brain uploads" to dying rich people. The result is convincing enough for advertising purposes. But a psychologist protagonist uncovers evidence that the uploads are not like having the same person still live, but more like a new being. The new beings then develop problematic tendencies, which of course have to be hushed up to keep the profits rolling it. The psychologist gets embroiled in the resulting carnage-- a Frankenstein story for our age, it practically writes itself!

  14. #44
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    Whether or not an upload of me is really me depends on how picky I am about the result. If I demand perfection then the Chuck of a second from now won't be me. If my standards are low then currently available AI software with a copy of my diary could be me. I guess it depends on what people will accept. Currently living people would likely be more skeptical than those born into a society in which people are routinely uploaded and are assumed to keep their identities.

    This reminds me of the teleportation question. Does the transporter send me somewhere else or does it kill me and make a new person with my memories somewhere else? There seems to be no answer.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck View Post
    Whether or not an upload of me is really me depends on how picky I am about the result. If I demand perfection then the Chuck of a second from now won't be me. If my standards are low then currently available AI software with a copy of my diary could be me. I guess it depends on what people will accept. Currently living people would likely be more skeptical than those born into a society in which people are routinely uploaded and are assumed to keep their identities.

    This reminds me of the teleportation question. Does the transporter send me somewhere else or does it kill me and make a new person with my memories somewhere else? There seems to be no answer.
    As long as "I" have the same basic memories and a perception of being conscious, I'm satisfied with that. I'll accept "myself" as still being continuous with my former self. I've already lived though major changes in my personality and self image in my organic life, so existing as an informorph is not an unimaginable thing.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  16. #46
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    How much of the original you would have to be missing before it goes from being an impaired you to not you at all?

  17. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck View Post
    How much of the original you would have to be missing before it goes from being an impaired you to not you at all?

    Only one way to find out!
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  18. #48
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    Maybe the question isn't whether or not the upload is me but to what degree it's me and how close is close enough?

  19. #49
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    Thinking on it, an upload or strong AI would probably be capable of altering itself. In that case, it'll have whatever degree and state of consciousness it wants.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  20. #50
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    But the question is, how closely does it resemble my former biological consciousness? Is it still me?

  21. #51
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    Perhaps, but maybe not for long. If it were possible to create an artificial version of your consciousness in some form or other, a version which was sufficiently similar to your previous mind-state that even you could not tell the difference, how long would it remain in this state? As Noclevername has suggested, a strong AI or 'upload' might be capable of rapid self-modification, and would quickly change into something else.

    The whole process of copying human mentalities in this fashion might turn out to be useless as a kind of immortality (even if it works), since the end result quickly becomes something new and inhuman.

    Full fathom five thy father lies;
    Of his bones are coral made;
    Those are pearls that were his eyes:
    Nothing of him that doth fade
    But doth suffer a sea-change
    Into something rich and strange.

  22. #52
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    My mind isn't going to remain exactly as it is whether uploaded it not. But is the upload who's choosing the improvements really me or just something with my memories?

  23. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    Thinking on it, an upload or strong AI would probably be capable of altering itself. In that case, it'll have whatever degree and state of consciousness it wants.
    And now you have added the icing on the cake of the sci fi concept. The reason a problem develops in the "uploads" is that the rich people undergoing the procedure were also paying for "upgrades" to their personality, to fix various unsatisfactory elements of their state of being. This caused an erosion of their sense of right and wrong, with far-reaching consequences for their "upgraded" hosts. After all, a million years of evolution has built our architecture to survive not just as individuals but in a community, so "uploaded" intelligences in ways that disconnect with that evolutionary process could have unforeseen consequences!

  24. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck View Post
    My mind isn't going to remain exactly as it is whether uploaded it not. But is the upload who's choosing the improvements really me or just something with my memories?
    Define "really me".
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  25. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken G View Post
    And now you have added the icing on the cake of the sci fi concept. The reason a problem develops in the "uploads" is that the rich people undergoing the procedure were also paying for "upgrades" to their personality, to fix various unsatisfactory elements of their state of being. This caused an erosion of their sense of right and wrong, with far-reaching consequences for their "upgraded" hosts. After all, a million years of evolution has built our architecture to survive not just as individuals but in a community, so "uploaded" intelligences in ways that disconnect with that evolutionary process could have unforeseen consequences!
    Full-on Lawnmower Man! Not that the kind of rich old men who'd try anything to cheat death would ever find flaws with their own personalities. Based on the way most of them act in current life, they'd probably insist on being exactly the same.

    Which brings up another problem; what happens to property and wealth? Does it transfer to the uploads or do they start with a clean slate? Do we live under an eternal AI-plutocracy? I suppose a digital being could always think of ways to make a "living". Gotta pay those power bills without fail, no matter what. Which could lead to a Virtual Hydraulic State; Whoever holds the plug, holds the leash for our old undead power brokers.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  26. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    Define "really me".
    Both are the same person in your opinion. Also in the opinions of others if that matters to you.

  27. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck View Post
    Both are the same person in your opinion. Also in the opinions of others if that matters to you.
    That's about as subjective as it gets, then. The uploaded you will have to decide for itself who/what it is. And if it's not satisfied with the results, maybe it can tweak itself to be more like the "old" you... or more accepting of its condition, either way.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  28. #58
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    I suppose the biological version of the uploadee should agree to it if it's fatal. If he's forced to do it and the computer version of him says he changed his mind and is happy with it, I'd have doubts that they're the same person.

  29. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck View Post
    I suppose the biological version of the uploadee should agree to it if it's fatal. If he's forced to do it and the computer version of him says he changed his mind and is happy with it, I'd have doubts that they're the same person.
    If you were such a subject, and thought you were going to die but instead lived, wouldn't you be happy to still be?
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  30. #60
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    If I thought I were going to die I probably wouldn't object to the procedure. But if people who expected to live awhile longer didn't want to do it and the state insisted that everyone reaching age 70 be uploaded to save on feeding and housing costs, I'd be against that requirement. Even if I thought they'd still be the same people after uploading and are mistaken now, it's not up to me or anyone else decide that for everyone. Besides, different people might have different ideas about what "same person" means and would see it as a death sentence.

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