Results 1 to 29 of 29

Thread: Is there a term for the assertion that we are not in the Matrix?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    5,580

    Is there a term for the assertion that we are not in the Matrix?

    or that the world isn't my own personal psychotic delusion? Does science have a word for it?
    "Occam" is the name of the alien race that will enslave us all eventually. And they've got razors for hands. I don't know if that's true but it seems like the simplest answer."

    Stephen Colbert.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Nowhere (middle)
    Posts
    37,483
    Materialism is usually considered the philosophical "opposite" of Solipsism.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Very near, yet so far away
    Posts
    340
    Quote Originally Posted by parallaxicality View Post
    Is there a term for the assertion that we are not in the Matrix?
    or that the world isn't my own personal psychotic delusion? Does science have a word for it?
    As per the long running thread, I would call it Mind Independent Reality (MIR) . But without repeating the whole thread, all I could say is that any notion you may have of the MIR must be suspect because it's filtered and defined by your own mind, making it Mind Dependent Reality.

    If you're referring to the matrix as depicted in the film, who knows? How could you possibly know? If it is something that can't be scientifically proven, it's unlikely there is a scientific term for it.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Very near, yet so far away
    Posts
    340
    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    Materialism is usually considered the philosophical "opposite" of Solipsism.
    Is philosophy a science?

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    4,341
    Is there a term for the assertion that we are not in the Matrix?
    Reality.
    Do good work. —Virgil Ivan "Gus" Grissom

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    a long way away
    Posts
    10,964
    Quote Originally Posted by parallaxicality View Post
    or that the world isn't my own personal psychotic delusion? Does science have a word for it?
    Sanity?

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    a long way away
    Posts
    10,964
    Quote Originally Posted by headrush View Post
    Is philosophy a science?
    No. (One could argue that the opposite is true: science is a branch of philosophy.)

    Philosophy is not as quantitative and evidence based as science is. But it should still be based on rigorous analysis and reasoning. There is probably more overlap with mathematics than science.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    15,554
    Quote Originally Posted by headrush View Post
    Is philosophy a science?
    (picked one post, could have picked a couple of others...)

    This discussion is off-topic, please cease this side-track. Just answer the question asked in OP, and don't devolve this thread into anything else.
    ____________
    "Dumb all over, a little ugly on the side." -- Frank Zappa
    "Your right to hold an opinion is not being contested. Your expectation that it be taken seriously is." -- Jason Thompson
    "This is really very simple, but unfortunately it's very complicated." -- publius

    Moderator comments in this color | Get moderator attention using the lower left icon:
    Recommended reading: Forum Rules * Forum FAQs * Conspiracy Theory Advice * Alternate Theory Advocates Advice

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    18,868
    Well, solipsism actually has nothing to do with psychotic delusions or being in simulated reality.
    Realism is the philosophical opposite of solipsism.

    Grant Hutchison

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    5,580
    Is realism necessary to do science, the same way uniformity is?
    "Occam" is the name of the alien race that will enslave us all eventually. And they've got razors for hands. I don't know if that's true but it seems like the simplest answer."

    Stephen Colbert.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    a long way away
    Posts
    10,964
    Quote Originally Posted by parallaxicality View Post
    Is realism necessary to do science, the same way uniformity is?
    No. (This has been discussed in the never ending thread about reality.)

    What science studies could be an illusion but, as long as it behaves consistently, we can do science on it.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    136
    "Is there a term for the assertion that we are not in the Matrix?"

    Unfalsifiable?
    A: "Things that are equal to the same are equal to each other"
    B: "The two sides of this triangle are things that are equal to the same"
    C: "If A and B are true, Z must be true"
    D: "If A and B and C are true, Z must be true"
    E: "If A and B and C and D are true, Z must be true"

    Therefore, Z: "The two sides of this triangle are equal to each other"

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Nowhere (middle)
    Posts
    37,483
    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    Well, solipsism actually has nothing to do with psychotic delusions or being in simulated reality.
    Realism is the philosophical opposite of solipsism.

    Grant Hutchison
    But see also Solipsism Syndrome.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    18,868
    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    But see also Solipsism Syndrome.
    Yeah. "Solipsism syndrome" (ironically enough) seems to have no reality outside the minds of people who design space habitats and write Wikipedia entries.

    Grant Hutchison

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    a long way away
    Posts
    10,964
    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    Yeah. "Solipsism syndrome" (ironically enough) seems to have no reality outside the minds of people who design space habitats and write Wikipedia entries.
    It does say "Solipsism syndrome is not currently recognized as a psychiatric disorder," at least. They could have added "we made it up 'cos it sounds kool".

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    18,868
    Quote Originally Posted by parallaxicality View Post
    Is realism necessary to do science, the same way uniformity is?
    Quite the reverse, really - quantum mechanics has generated a lot of fruitful thinking by specifically rejecting (defined kinds of) realism.

    Grant Hutchison

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    478
    I suppose the idea that we are 'not in some form of simulation' is 'Realism'.
    However, given our minds interpret our limited sense data about the world, and generate a feeling of 'reality'.. i think it is safe to say that 'real' reality is a form of 'virtual' reality.
    The idea that there may be some deeper layer of 'Reality' that we can know anything about is known as 'Scientific Realism'... but I don't think anybody really believes our consciousnesses actually 'live' / 'exist' in our minute-to-minute existence within 'Scientific Reality'.
    So i'd say the idea that we are NOT in the Matrix (of our own mind's creation) would be termed "Naive Realism".
    "It's only a model....?" :-)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3dZl3yfGpc

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    478
    Quote Originally Posted by 21st Century Schizoid Man View Post
    "Is there a term for the assertion that we are not in the Matrix?"

    Unfalsifiable?
    It is feasible that if we were in an alien simulation- we could potentially detect this fact. In the 'Matrix' movies, a sense of 'deja vu' is a marker of coding 'glitch'.
    I think there is a lot of scifi that suggests the idea that quantum particles cease to exist when not directly observed is a sign of non-infinite processing power in our simulation....
    So maybe it would be a falsifiable proposal?

    Also- finding some coded message in the decimal expansion of Pi put there by the creators of the universe would be a clue!
    "It's only a model....?" :-)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3dZl3yfGpc

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Nowhere (middle)
    Posts
    37,483
    Quote Originally Posted by plant View Post
    It is feasible that if we were in an alien simulation- we could potentially detect this fact. In the 'Matrix' movies, a sense of 'deja vu' is a marker of coding 'glitch'.
    I think there is a lot of scifi that suggests the idea that quantum particles cease to exist when not directly observed is a sign of non-infinite processing power in our simulation....
    So maybe it would be a falsifiable proposal?
    Not as long as there are other potential explanations for those particles.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    136
    Quote Originally Posted by plant View Post
    In the 'Matrix' movies, a sense of 'deja vu' is a marker of coding 'glitch'.
    How do we distinguish that from the possibility that we live in a real universe, where humans sometimes experience a sense of deja vu?

    Quote Originally Posted by plant View Post
    I think there is a lot of scifi that suggests the idea that quantum particles cease to exist when not directly observed is a sign of non-infinite processing power in our simulation....
    Same issue - how do we distinguish that from a real universe in which quantum particles cease to exist when not directly observed?

    Quote Originally Posted by plant View Post
    Also- finding some coded message in the decimal expansion of Pi put there by the creators of the universe would be a clue!
    Coded messages have been found somewhere else.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_code

    And here's a word from someone who (like me) is not convinced:

    https://sites.math.washington.edu/~g...BibleCode.html

    Same issue with digits of pi - if you look hard enough, I guarantee you will find a pattern. Is this pattern some sort of coded message, or is it there because we have read meaning into the noise? There is an infinitude of codes, after all.
    A: "Things that are equal to the same are equal to each other"
    B: "The two sides of this triangle are things that are equal to the same"
    C: "If A and B are true, Z must be true"
    D: "If A and B and C are true, Z must be true"
    E: "If A and B and C and D are true, Z must be true"

    Therefore, Z: "The two sides of this triangle are equal to each other"

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Wisconsin USA
    Posts
    3,162
    Cognito, ergo sum
    The moment an instant lasted forever, we were destined for the leading edge of eternity.

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    4,805
    Quote Originally Posted by Copernicus View Post
    Cognito, ergo sum
    Cognito, ergo es.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    18,868
    Cogito.
    ("Cognito" is an adjective in the dative or ablative case, and so makes no sense, even if you wanted to say "I know" rather than "I think".)

    Grant Hutchison
    Last edited by grant hutchison; 2020-Jan-31 at 03:49 PM.

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    27,117
    Quote Originally Posted by parallaxicality View Post
    or that the world isn't my own personal psychotic delusion? Does science have a word for it?
    The term for a scientific model that says the Earth orbits the Sun is called (somewhat inaccurately) "heliocentrism." We don't call it "non-geocentrism", because we name scientific models by what they are, not by what they aren't (though there are a few counterexamples!). So I think you are looking for a term for a model that the world is your own personal delusion, and then any other model is not that. If the model further stipulates that there is some other reality in which your brain is being fed stimulus that you are mistaking for an actual reality, then you have already supplied a term for that model-- it's called "The Matrix." If your model is pure delusion with no alternative objective reality in the model, no "vat" for your brain to be in, then there is no scientific name for such a model because it fails the objectivity requirements of any scientific model.

    Assuming you had the former model in mind, now the scientist must try to test that model. Ironically, the whole reason we can talk about that model is that it was tested by the characters in the movie-- they did wake up, and did share an objective reality outside of the perceptual one. So here's how you test that model-- find a way to wake up, and communicate that way to others so that it can be an objective phenomenon. If you cannot do that, you cannot test your model, and it can be added to an ever-growing pile of untestable models that make no useful predictions, in stark contrast to the existing highly testable models that make very useful predictions.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Wisconsin USA
    Posts
    3,162
    Quote Originally Posted by John Mendenhall View Post
    Cognito, ergo es.
    That makes more sense for the Matrix.
    The moment an instant lasted forever, we were destined for the leading edge of eternity.

  26. #26
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    4,341
    Quote Originally Posted by 21st Century Schizoid Man View Post
    Coded messages have been found somewhere else.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_code

    And here's a word from someone who (like me) is not convinced:

    https://sites.math.washington.edu/~g...BibleCode.html

    Same issue with digits of pi - if you look hard enough, I guarantee you will find a pattern. Is this pattern some sort of coded message, or is it there because we have read meaning into the noise? There is an infinitude of codes, after all.
    Oh, boy, I am not going to go there.
    Do good work. —Virgil Ivan "Gus" Grissom

  27. #27
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    4,341
    There isn't a word or phrase for "not being a part of the Matrix" for the same reason there isn't a word for our universe not being a blueberry inside a cosmic muffin. The idea of the Matrix or some other artificial simulation of reality is so extreme and recent that it has no polar opposite term. I worked at a psychiatric institution 2005-2010 and was personally familiar with a person who had the delusion that the "Matrix" was real, so nothing he did would really hurt or kill anyone (making him quite dangerous, of course). However, that was a delusion. The existence of a "Matrix" is untestable by any means, as it assumes we are all in it but we have no red or blue pill to take. Therefore the opposite of "being in the Matrix" is simply "reality".
    Do good work. —Virgil Ivan "Gus" Grissom

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    27,117
    People keep saying this, but in the movie, the reality was that they really were in the matrix, and they really found a way to test that they were in the matrix, and having that testable model (spoiler alert).... won them their freedom from the aliens. So that's a perfectly fine scientific model, but it does require not only a means of testing it, it also requires some evidence that it is passing the test!

  29. #29
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Very near, yet so far away
    Posts
    340
    Just to briefly touch on the matrix movie. The only way that there was any awareness of existence outside the matrix was that some people were never captured and assimilated. Otherwise there would not have been and could never have been, any testable evidence of anything outside the matrix. Also, the delusional person mentioned above didn't even understand the plot. People could be hurt and killed in the matrix world. They didn't just respawn as someone else. Even those outside the matrix had to be careful (when on a mission inside the matrix) , as the quote said "the body can't live without the mind".

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •