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Thread: The non infinite universe theory

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    The non infinite universe theory

    Abstract
    This theory describes a universe that isn't infinite.

    What is nothing
    The base of the theory relies on the definition of nothing. When many think of the definition of a space with nothing in it they think of an empty room. However in an empty room there are billions of atoms and photons. The definition of nothing is something that can't be found anywhere near us. Since as far as we will ever be able to see there are stars, meteors, objects of mass, energy and therefore gravity present. True 'nothingness' is a space where there is absolutely nothing no vision of a distance star through photons no gravitational forces no energy just nothing. This place where everything that 'exist' is absent shouldn't be seen as part of the universe because there simply isn't anything present there and therefore that place doesn't exist.

    What is the universe
    Now that we have defined nothing we have to define the opposite which is what we consider to be the universe. The definition of the universe is a space where any form of energy or any form of a force is present.

    The edge of the universe
    A lot theories think of a material or forceful barrier that create an edge around the universe which can or can't be penetrated. However such a barrier should be made of something and could have an 'other side' which just wouldn't make any sense. However using the previously made definitions we are actually able to make an edge of the universe that doesn't leave any unknowns that would require almost science fiction like theories to understand. The edge of the universe is simple any place were the influence or presence of something that we consider to be existing stops. This means that the edge of the universe is actively moving because of the containment of the universe is either expanding or contracting or just moving.

    Why the universe isn't infinite
    Now if we consider the definition of nothing to be true and therefore a universe with a movable edge it shouldn't be infinite. This is because we need energy to create a piece of universe. And there should be a maximum of how 'much' universe can be created per amount of energy when the energy is at its most spread out form without losing 'contact' with itself and creating nothingness in between itself. This way we can look as the universe as a ball of water in space. With the space being non existing 'space' and the water being all of the energy in the universe. We can form the ball of water however we like or even make the longest and thinnest possible string of water. But there is a maximum length or size that we can achieve since we only have a set amount of water just like we only have a certain amount of energy in the universe. basically the universe may be free to infinitely move around creating new universe on one place while simultaneously stopping to exist somewhere else. But it can only become a certain maximum volume.

    The influence of gravity
    according to the definition of the universe gravity creates a piece of universe. When looking at the formula for the gravitational force two things are important to take into consideration.
    F = \frac{GMm}{r^2}
    The first one being the small m on top. Since the mass of nothing is also nothing the gravitational force is zero. This would mean that gravity wouldn't be able 'move' in the direction of the edge of the universe and therefore wouldn't be able to create new universe. However if we consider to be a sort of mass magnet and is present without a second mass being present we would have an almost infinite universe. Since range of the gravitational force is considered to be infinite because of the $r^2$ on the bottom. However the range may be infinite the force isn't instant. Gravity moves with speed of light which would mean that the universe would be expanding forever with the speed of light but would still have a set volume at a set time so it wouldn't be infinite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TSteggi View Post
    The edge of the universe
    A lot theories think of a material or forceful barrier that create an edge around the universe which can or can't be penetrated.
    Hello TSteggi, welcome to the board.

    What theories are you referring to? In mainstream theory, there is no edge or center, the universe is not inside any larger space and the universe might be finite or infinite in scale - currently there is no indication which is true.

    Mainstream theory is both based on and limited by available evidence.

    The edge of the universe is simple any place were the influence or presence of something that we consider to be existing stops. This means that the edge of the universe is actively moving because of the containment of the universe is either expanding or contracting or just moving.
    But what evidence is there that the universe has an edge?

    Why the universe isn't infinite
    Now if we consider the definition of nothing to be true and therefore a universe with a movable edge it shouldn't be infinite. This is because we need energy to create a piece of universe.
    How did you determine the universe was created? How did you determine there is a limit on the possible mass/energy of the entire universe?

    I would suggest you might want to look into modern cosmology a bit, at least to the point of getting a general idea of some of the underlying concepts.

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    Welcome, TSeggi.

    It might be helpful to understand if you substituted the term "existence" for Universe. The Universe is not a place, it is everything that exists, in all possible places. Any physical "barrier" or anything outside a barrier, would still exist, that is, it would still be part of the Universe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSteggi View Post
    Abstract
    This theory describes a universe that isn't infinite. ..
    Hi TSteggi and welcome to the forum. Unfortunately a scientific theory should not ignore the definitions of physics terms or cosmology.

    What is nothing: The scientific definition of a vacuum is the removal of everything so there is no matter or energy. "Nothing" is just a synonym for vacuum.
    What is the universe: Everything there is - even all there is a vacuum with no matter or energy. Vacuum solutions are well known in cosmology.
    The edge of the universe: No accepted theory in cosmology says the universe has an edge.
    Why the universe isn't infinite: Infinity is the concept of having no bounds. As soon as you impose a "maximum" from what looks like incredulity about an infinite universe, you exclude infinity. That is circular reasoning.
    The influence of gravity: Newton's law of gravity is wrong. It is an approximation to general relativity (GR) which is the correct theory to use for cosmology.

    ETA: Another thing that makes your theory not science is that size is a measurement, not something that can be pulled out of someone's personal beliefs.
    Someone might write a "1 kilometer radius Earth" theory and justify it because the they cannot conceive of a maximum length greater than a kilometer. That cannot be right until they measure that the Earth is 1 kilometer in radius.
    You have the excuse that infinity is a lot harder to understand than a kilometer so it is easier to assume that the universe must have a maximum.
    Last edited by Reality Check; 2020-Feb-18 at 02:43 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Van Rijn View Post
    Hello TSteggi, welcome to the board.

    What theories are you referring to? In mainstream theory, there is no edge or center, the universe is not inside any larger space and the universe might be finite or infinite in scale - currently there is no indication which is true.

    Mainstream theory is both based on and limited by available evidence.



    But what evidence is there that the universe has an edge?



    How did you determine the universe was created? How did you determine there is a limit on the possible mass/energy of the entire universe?

    I would suggest you might want to look into modern cosmology a bit, at least to the point of getting a general idea of some of the underlying concepts.
    What theories am I referring to?
    Maybe I shouldn't have used 'theories'. But I was simply referring to a
    thought that many people have on 'were does it end?' which wouldn't make any sense
    To introduce them to my idea of were and how it could possible end that you could actually wrap you head around.

    What evidence is there that the universe has an edge?
    The first law of thermodynamics indicates that every system should have a set amount of energy.
    Therefore the universe should also have a set amount of energy in it. Accepting the previosly
    defined definitions of what is the universe and what is nothing should therefore indicate an edge.

    How do you determine the universe was created?
    I think my theory actually almost goes hand in hand with the big bang theory because according to
    my definitions introducing energy into an empty space would create a universe. The only problem is
    that the big bang theory says that it happened everywhere at the same time which could indicate an
    infinite universe. However the assumption that it happened everywhere at the same time is made by
    observation of the visable universe therefore it isn't able to disprove my theory.
    My take on it is that could of happened anywhere at the same time but at the moment
    it happened space wasn't infinite therefore there isn't infinite energy. And while
    new space is getting created around or even in between galaxies (or just any object) the universe expands.
    Basicly instead of the matter in the universe actually drifting away from each other new space/universe is being created in between.

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    Thanks for the input I was indeed mildly struggling with which terminology I should use to bring the message across in the most understandable way. Quick note I described the edge as: 'The edge of the universe is simple any place were the influence or presence of something that we consider to be existing stops.' meaning that the 'edge' isn't a physical thing and there isn't anything beyond it is just plain nothing. And I defined nothing to be a non existing palce instead being part of the universe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TSteggi View Post
    Thanks for the input I was indeed mildly struggling with which terminology I should use to bring the message across in the most understandable way. Quick note I described the edge as: 'The edge of the universe is simple any place were the influence or presence of something that we consider to be existing stops.' meaning that the 'edge' isn't a physical thing and there isn't anything beyond it is just plain nothing. And I defined nothing to be a non existing palce instead being part of the universe.
    This is a definition of an infinite universe, TSteggi, because gravity has no limits to its influence and extends to infinity.
    Another flaw: Place an arbitrary limit to the "influence or presence of something that we consider to be existing" at Earth so that there is an "edge" at a distance D from Earth. Now go to D and apply the same limit - the edge moves! Keep repeating this forever and this is an infinite universe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TSteggi View Post
    The first law of thermodynamics indicates that every system should have a set amount of energy.
    The first law of thermodynamics which is that the total energy of an isolated system is constant. There is no constraint on the size of that total energy. The total energy in the universe does not change, even if it is infinite.

    The Big Bang starts with the universe filled with energy. This energy is not introduced - it is calculated basically by running the physics backward from the current universe until the physics fails at a very tiny time. Mainstream cosmology says nothing about whether the universe finite or infinite. It works equally well for each case. What would tell us that the universe is finite is measuring that it is finite. We have some evidence suggesting that the universe is infinite, e.g. we measure the curvature of the universe and that includes zero curvature. A flat universe should be infinite. A very small curvature gives an enormously large, finite universe.

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    If the Universe has an "edge", it must have a center. We have found the opposite to be true; there is no directionality to it, all points are equally the center/edge. The Universal expansion as determined by red shift, looks the same from any direction.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

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    Quote Originally Posted by TSteggi View Post
    What theories am I referring to?
    Maybe I shouldn't have used 'theories'. But I was simply referring to a
    thought that many people have on 'were does it end?' which wouldn't make any sense
    To introduce them to my idea of were and how it could possible end that you could actually wrap you head around.
    The Universe's properties are under no obligation to be things we can wrap our heads around.

    What evidence is there that the universe has an edge?
    The first law of thermodynamics indicates that every system should have a set amount of energy.
    Therefore the universe should also have a set amount of energy in it. Accepting the previosly
    defined definitions of what is the universe and what is nothing should therefore indicate an edge.
    See Reality Check's post #7, sums it up nicely.

    How do you determine the universe was created?
    I think my theory actually almost goes hand in hand with the big bang theory because according to
    my definitions introducing energy into an empty space would create a universe. The only problem is
    that the big bang theory says that it happened everywhere at the same time which could indicate an
    infinite universe. However the assumption that it happened everywhere at the same time is made by
    observation of the visable universe therefore it isn't able to disprove my theory.
    My take on it is that could of happened anywhere at the same time but at the moment
    it happened space wasn't infinite therefore there isn't infinite energy. And while
    new space is getting created around or even in between galaxies (or just any object) the universe expands.
    Basicly instead of the matter in the universe actually drifting away from each other new space/universe is being created in between.
    The BBT does not claim "energy was introduced into a space." You seem to misunderstand BB theory. I would begin my research here.

    Space is a thing, a factor of existence; a prior space just kicks the beginning of existence back a step, it does not explain it.

    As for the rest, the nature of a theory is that it is confirmed based on scientific (observable and repeatable) evidence. What is your evidence?
    Last edited by Noclevername; 2020-Feb-18 at 08:35 PM.
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  11. #11
    I thought the universe is about 93 billion light years across. And that quantum physicist calculated that there something like 10120 more energy available on the quantum level then what we are seeing in dark energy.
    Last edited by The Backroad Astronomer; 2020-Feb-19 at 04:50 PM. Reason: forgot a billion.
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  12. #12
    There is the steady state theory that thinks that the universe is infinitly old and infinitly big, but the cosmic background radiation disproves that because it shows there was a beginning.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Backroad Astronomer View Post
    I thought the universe is about 93 billion light years across.
    The observable part is that big. What lies beyond that, we literally can't ever know, ADDED: except by its gravitational effects which balance out, suggesting whatever's there is (on a large scale) consistent in mass and density in all directions.
    Last edited by Noclevername; 2020-Feb-19 at 11:20 PM.
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    The observable part is that big. What lies beyond that, we literally can't ever know, ADDED: except by its gravitational effects which balance out, suggesting whatever's there is (on a large scale) consistent in mass and density in all directions.
    Well anything outside the observational universe doesn't really apply because we can't measure it so we can't know what is out there, it could be other universes or it could be a bunch of Qs playing with the universe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSteggi View Post
    What evidence is there that the universe has an edge?
    The first law of thermodynamics indicates that every system should have a set amount of energy.
    Therefore the universe should also have a set amount of energy in it. Accepting the previosly
    defined definitions of what is the universe and what is nothing should therefore indicate an edge.
    If that "set amount" of energy were infinite, then the universe would also need to be infinite.

    The only problem is
    that the big bang theory says that it happened everywhere at the same time which could indicate an
    infinite universe.
    The big bang model (including "happening everywhere") works equally well for a finite and infinite universe. That is why we don't know if the universe is infinite or not.

    Also, important to note that the big bang model doesn't say anything about the universe being created. It just says that it was once in a hot, dense state. We don't have any theories that can go back earlier than that, and no evidence that the universe was created.

    Basically, if the universe is finite, it was always finite. If it is infinite, it was always infinite.
    Last edited by Strange; 2020-Feb-20 at 07:16 PM. Reason: spelling

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Backroad Astronomer View Post
    I thought the universe is about 93 billion light years across. ...
    Quote Originally Posted by The Backroad Astronomer View Post
    There is the steady state theory ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    The observable part is that big. What lies beyond that ...
    Quote Originally Posted by The Backroad Astronomer View Post
    Well anything outside the observational universe doesn't really apply ...
    This is TSteggi's thread to discuss/defend his ideas about the universe. Please honor that and don't wander into side discussions.
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    I was just pointing out some flaws in his theory.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Backroad Astronomer View Post
    I was just pointing out some flaws in his theory.
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    Could we have some math?
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    It would appear this thread has been abandoned, since the OP hasn't been active on the forum since February 19th. Closed.
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