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Thread: The COVID-19 Discussion Thread (OTB)

  1. #1651
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    After going on social media this morning:

    Yet again, I would like to thank the forum and the all participants here for their polite, candid and helpful information and observations on this topic. It's really the only place I trust for news and information on this situation.
    Solfe

  2. #1652
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck View Post
    My first shot was nothing so I wasn't worried about the second. Now I am.
    My first shot was nothing (Pfizer) and the second shot.... also nothing!
    Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.

  3. #1653
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solfe View Post
    After going on social media this morning:

    Yet again, I would like to thank the forum and the all participants here for their polite, candid and helpful information and observations on this topic. It's really the only place I trust for news and information on this situation.
    Very much yes.

    My state government representative (lower chamber of our state government) posts on Facebook about Covid, stuff like where to get vaccines, and such posts usually result in stupid troll posts and some reasonable conversations. I had one reasonable, polite conversation with a lady who was hesitant about getting a vaccine, and I tried to address her concerns. One of those concerns was that the vaccine was too new, and we didn't know the long term effects. I asked her how long she thought we needed to wait for those results and she said "five years" . I dropped out of the conversation at that point, since I couldn't think of a polite response, but I gave her lots of credit for an extended, polite conversation up to that point.

    But those are the exceptions. Too many of the posts are rude and moronic and it is hard to tell if they are from stupid people, or Russian bots.
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  4. #1654
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    ^^^^ 5 Years!?!
    You should have told her that "Yep, after 5 years we should reach herd immunity alright and then no one would need a shot." ....No one left standing that is.

  5. #1655
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swift View Post
    Very much yes.

    My state government representative (lower chamber of our state government) posts on Facebook about Covid, stuff like where to get vaccines, and such posts usually result in stupid troll posts and some reasonable conversations. I had one reasonable, polite conversation with a lady who was hesitant about getting a vaccine, and I tried to address her concerns. One of those concerns was that the vaccine was too new, and we didn't know the long term effects. I asked her how long she thought we needed to wait for those results and she said "five years" . I dropped out of the conversation at that point, since I couldn't think of a polite response, but I gave her lots of credit for an extended, polite conversation up to that point.

    But those are the exceptions. Too many of the posts are rude and moronic and it is hard to tell if they are from stupid people, or Russian bots.
    I simply don't process risks as most people do. As a point of data, I had a minor adverse effect to donating Rh antibodies. I guess it is called a hemolytic transfusion reaction, but I had to look that up. Being injected with the wrong blood type on purpose can have these sorts of problems. But if you want blood based medicinal products, injecting someone with the wrong blood type is the best way to go. It's safe and reliable enough to happen every day and the main donors are elderly women.

    One point of interest, this type of antibody donation used to be run by Johnson and Johnson here in Western New York. It was the only facility and source of antibodies in the nation for a while. It's run by a different company now, but is largely the same program. As I understand it, these sorts of products don't cross national borders without significant oversight. So, basically this type of program would occur in virtually every nation. It's proof positive that risk assessment occurs everywhere at relatively high levels of concern.

    How dangerous is COVID when compared to that? Not idea. Less dangerous for individual, I would imagine. But COVID left to run it's course unchecked in the general population for years is like a dumpster fire of danger. My question about "waiting" is, do people realize it isn't really waiting. It's injecting someone else with it and waiting to see what happens to them while everyone without the vaccine is subjected to the natural course of the pandemic? To me, that is unacceptable for a whole variety of reasons.
    Solfe

  6. #1656
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    WHO: India, Brazil Account for Half of New Global COVID-19 Cases
    https://www.bignewsnetwork.com/news/...covid-19-cases

    Medical supplies from Canada arrive in India
    https://globalnews.ca/news/7845528/c...s-coronavirus/
    Canada has agreed to supply India with 350 ventilators and up to 25,000 vials of remdesivir from its national emergency stockpile to help
    At least 16,000 in Sweden have long-term Covid
    https://sverigesradio.se/artikel/at-...ong-term-covid
    Sweden passes one million coronavirus cases
    https://www.thelocal.se/20210506/swe...navirus-cases/

    Covid crisis: How India 'has become' an even more macabre version of Bolsonaro's Brazil
    https://www.counterview.net/2021/05/...come-even.html

    India’s disaster hangs over countries facing COVID-19 surges
    https://apnews.com/article/ap-top-ne...4ef400c15d2047

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

    http://91-divoc.com/pages/covid-visualization/
    number chart graphs

  7. #1657
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swift View Post
    Very much yes.

    I asked her how long she thought we needed to wait for those results and she said "five years"
    According to the following article:
    Any adverse side effects from vaccines almost always "show up within the first two weeks, and certainly by the first two months,"
    https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/28/healt...ked/index.html

    I'd heard elsewhere that side effects are almost unheard-of after six weeks.
    I may have many faults, but being wrong ain't one of them. - Jimmy Hoffa

  8. #1658
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    My niece visited yesterday. Her step-daughter is an anti-vaxer with two small children. I'm tempted to tell my niece not to visit us again if she's been around the stepdaughter or kids. Even though she and we are fully vaccinated.
    Step-daughter is, of course, the same one who scheduled a destination wedding. In Reykjavik. In February. And called it off the night before.
    Who am I kidding. If Emily wants to visit, she can.
    Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.

  9. #1659
    My age cohort can now get the vaccine, all I need to do now is find a pharmacy that are doing the shot nd make an appointment didn't find out until after the pharmacies were closed for the night.
    From the wilderness into the cosmos.
    You can not be afraid of the wind, Enterprise: Broken Bow.
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  10. #1660
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    Quote Originally Posted by Launch window View Post
    WHO: India, Brazil Account for Half of New Global COVID-19 Cases
    https://www.bignewsnetwork.com/news/...covid-19-cases

    Medical supplies from Canada arrive in India
    https://globalnews.ca/news/7845528/c...s-coronavirus/


    At least 16,000 in Sweden have long-term Covid
    https://sverigesradio.se/artikel/at-...ong-term-covid
    Sweden passes one million coronavirus cases
    https://www.thelocal.se/20210506/swe...navirus-cases/

    Covid crisis: How India 'has become' an even more macabre version of Bolsonaro's Brazil
    https://www.counterview.net/2021/05/...come-even.html

    India’s disaster hangs over countries facing COVID-19 surges
    https://apnews.com/article/ap-top-ne...4ef400c15d2047

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

    http://91-divoc.com/pages/covid-visualization/
    number chart graphs
    Launch window

    I have not reviewed all those links, but I suspect at least some of them would be better in the Science & Technology thread on this topic.

    As a reminder for everyone, here is Post # 1 from this thread, with its intended purpose

    Quote Originally Posted by PetersCreek View Post
    If you're looking for a place to discuss non-scientific matters related to the COVID-19 pandemic, you've found it.

    It's understandable that folks want (need) to discuss their concerns, their fears, and the impact the pandemic has had on their lives, including deaths that hit all to close to home, if not in it. However, such discussion has been creeping into several threads, to the point of taking them off topic or disrupting them in other ways. Concerning ways. And, as much as we need to talk about such things, we also need a place to get away from talk of such things, if only for a while. So, we've created this thread as a place for almost all non-scientific discussion of COVID-19. For more sciencey disucssion, please see Disease and pandemics thread (because it's science). Some posts are still appropriate for the threads about trivial or not-so-trivial things that annoy you, amuse you, or make you happy but if there's to be more discussion about it, please do it here. But first, a...

    Warning: Our forum rules still apply here.
    Be polite. No politics. No conspiracy theories.
    No medical advice, ATM medicine, home-brewed cures, or other misinformation.
    There's enough of that going around everywhere.

    We hope this thread is of benefit to you.
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  11. #1661
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    This morning I saw some loon on TV promoting a conspiracy theory about Fauci and China. Unfortunately, this XKCD is applicable.
    Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.

  12. #1662
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    Sorry, sort of, for the political reference above.
    Today my wife had a doctor appointment. We manage to get most of our medical stuff done at Jefferson Healthcare, but there are some specialties they can't provide. My wife's neurologist and pulmonologist are in Sequim, and her rheumatologist is the other direction in Poulsbo. That's who we saw today.
    Every dang clinic has different practices. Primary care doctor's office here, through JH, allows me to accompany my wife. I prefer to do that, for reasons, including her increasing deafness. Except last time she had lab tests in the hospital across the street, they told me to wait in the car. They hadn't been doing that for the past year of Covid.
    Sequim, meh. They don't take your temperature, don't care what kind of mask you have, and don't space the chairs apart, as the do here.
    So today in Poulsbo they checked in my wife, saw me there, and when I told them I was with her it was all "OMG, get out of here, go wait in the car!" They could, of course, have had a sign to that effect on the door, but didn't.
    I'd feel more comfortable if I could have been with her and the doctor, to interpret where necessary; even to correct if it was important because Parkinsons sometimes causes her to believe things that aren't true. But I couldn't.
    Dang.
    Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.

  13. #1663
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    We have both just had our first vaccination. Only an hour ago so no aches or pains as yet. The vaccine was the AstraZeneca one. This is being provided only to those over 50 due to the, very rare, platelet clotting problem. Pfizer and Moderns vaccines are on order for those under 50.

    Like most countries the vaccine rollout has had its ups and downs here. This is partly due to the shortage of vaccine, especially the Pfizer one, with only about 25% of the contracted quantities being delivered anywhere near on time. Local manufacture of the AstraZeneca vaccine has now ramped up enough to supply all of Australia's needs and produce surplus for some of our neighbours.

    It is probable that we will be able to produce the mRNA vaccines like Moderna within 12 months as money is being allocated to start up local manufacture and a licensing agreement appears likely.

  14. #1664
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    I now have to figure out childcare for two different doctors' appointments. I get that I can't do the dentist remotely, but I'm a little uncertain about the psychiatrist.
    _____________________________________________
    Gillian

    "Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

    "You can't erase icing."

    "I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

  15. #1665
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozduck View Post
    We have both just had our first vaccination. Only an hour ago so no aches or pains as yet. The vaccine was the AstraZeneca one. This is being provided only to those over 50 due to the, very rare, platelet clotting problem. Pfizer and Moderns vaccines are on order for those under 50.
    .
    I went to bed still feeling fine but woke up in the middle of the night with joint pains. Today my back and hips are sore and I feel a bite achy all over. My wife was starting to feel a bit unwell when she went to bed and has now got 'flu symptoms'. She is also sore at the injection site but my arm is fine. All these seem to be common reactions.

    So, no bike riding today.

  16. #1666
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozduck View Post
    We have both just had our first vaccination. Only an hour ago so no aches or pains as yet. The vaccine was the AstraZeneca one. This is being provided only to those over 50 due to the, very rare, platelet clotting problem. Pfizer and Moderns vaccines are on order for those under 50.
    So do the clots only occur in younger people, or do they just not care if older folks die?
    Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.

  17. #1667
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
    So do the clots only occur in younger people, or do they just not care if older folks die?
    Well, that's a kind of weird question.
    The clots are about four times more common in the under-30s than the over-70s, but extremely rare in all age groups. Compare that to the risk of death from Covid, which is also extremely rare in the under-30s, but worryingly common in the over-70s. Therefore balance of risks is very clear in older people--get the vaccine, don't die of Covid. The cut-off age, where hospitalizations due to Covid if unvaccinated are balanced by hospitalizations due to blood clots if vaccinated, depends on the prevalence of disease--if Covid is rife in your community, it makes sense for everyone over thirty to take the vaccine, because your risk of getting the disease is relatively high; if Covid is very rare (as it is in Australia) then the age limit for the risk/benefit balance goes up.
    There are some nice graphics here.

    Edit: The Spiegelhalter graphics appear to be public domain, and are easy to interpret:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Grant Hutchison
    Last edited by grant hutchison; 2021-May-14 at 04:22 PM.

  18. #1668
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    The CDC has declared that vaccinated people are now allowed to go unmasked in public. However, since most of my in public time will be with the kids, I'll probably remain masked to set my kids a good example.
    _____________________________________________
    Gillian

    "Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

    "You can't erase icing."

    "I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

  19. #1669
    One shot in, have to what August for next one.
    From the wilderness into the cosmos.
    You can not be afraid of the wind, Enterprise: Broken Bow.
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  20. #1670
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    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    Well, that's a kind of weird question.
    The clots are about four times more common in the under-30s than the over-70s, but extremely rare in all age groups. Compare that to the risk of death from Covid, which is also extremely rare in the under-30s, but worryingly common in the over-70s. Therefore balance of risks is very clear in older people--get the vaccine, don't die of Covid. The cut-off age, where hospitalizations due to Covid if unvaccinated are balanced by hospitalizations due to blood clots if vaccinated, depends on the prevalence of disease--if Covid is rife in your community, it makes sense for everyone over thirty to take the vaccine, because your risk of getting the disease is relatively high; if Covid is very rare (as it is in Australia) then the age limit for the risk/benefit balance goes up.
    There are some nice graphics here.

    Edit: The Spiegelhalter graphics appear to be public domain, and are easy to interpret:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	AZ_harms-benefits_low_exposure_8-4-21.width-800.png 
Views:	10 
Size:	132.4 KB 
ID:	26171
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ID:	26172

    Grant Hutchison
    As usual, very informative Grant. Somehow Ozduck's phrasing just struck me as odd.
    Meanwhile my cousin's funeral is tomorrow. She died of Covid-19 on Easter Sunday, 2020; and now the family finally feel they can get together.
    Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.

  21. #1671
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
    As usual, very informative Grant. Somehow Ozduck's phrasing just struck me as odd.
    Meanwhile my cousin's funeral is tomorrow. She died of Covid-19 on Easter Sunday, 2020; and now the family finally feel they can get together.
    Grant has explained the matter far better than I ever could. I didn't elaborate too much in my first post to avoid extra verbiage. I guess that part of the problem was that in Australia, because we are using a lot of AstraZeneca, the risk factors regarding age groups are well known to most of the population. I forgot that in countries where it is not used much, if at all, many would not be familiar with all the risk evaluations involved in the rollout of this particular vaccine. There was a bit of 'vaccine hesitancy' here when the clotting problem first became known, combined with the extremely small likelihood of actually becoming infected in Australia, but now that the risks have become better known the rate of vaccination is increasing fairly rapidly. But there is still the problem of getting enough supply of the Pfizer/Moderna etc vaccines for the under 50's. Anyway, we both got very 'full' reactions to the shots yesterday - flu like symptoms including tiredness, aches & pains, chills etc. Luckily they have almost entirely gone today.

    I hope you and your family can get some peace from your cousin's funeral.

  22. #1672
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    The error brackets on these few-in-a-million risks are usually fairly wide and indeed vary from time to time and country to country, and are in any case not the sort of thing worth worrying about. But the last time I looked the extra risk of blood clots associated with AstraZeneca (compared to Pfizer) was outweighed by the extra risk of anaphylaxis from Pfizer (compared with AstraZeneca), in my age group.

    Grant HUtchison

  23. #1673
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    It is very sad that shock and blood clots cause hospitalisations and deaths, often with unknown cause, sometimes with likely cause at a few per million rate but even sadder that news cycles latch onto cases as if they were common. The same perception of very unlikely events drives lotteries with a tiny chance of winning, egged on by emphasis on the winners rather than losers.

    We live with these few in a million chances all the time, but rate millions like percentages when told of cases. As (I think) Alan Ayckbourne said when challenged about his smoking habit “ if immortality were an option, I might reconsider”
    sicut vis videre esto
    When we realize that patterns don't exist in the universe, they are a template that we hold to the universe to make sense of it, it all makes a lot more sense.
    Originally Posted by Ken G

  24. #1674
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    Given the recent gasoline panic buying in the US, I couldn’t help but chuckle when I saw someone comment that “Right now, there are people with plastic bags of gasoline in their homes who won’t get vaccinated because it is too dangerous.”
    I may have many faults, but being wrong ain't one of them. - Jimmy Hoffa

  25. #1675
    Quote Originally Posted by Extravoice View Post
    Given the recent gasoline panic buying in the US, I couldn’t help but chuckle when I saw someone comment that “Right now, there are people with plastic bags of gasoline in their homes who won’t get vaccinated because it is too dangerous.”
    Earlier saw a picture of someone pumping gas into laundry basket.
    In an earlier po
    st I said there were 50 in the ICU in Halifax that was 50 in the hospital, there new cases are dropping but there was a protest against the restrictions and 21 got arrested out of about fifty people there.
    From the wilderness into the cosmos.
    You can not be afraid of the wind, Enterprise: Broken Bow.
    https://davidsuniverse.wordpress.com/

  26. #1676
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    I find all of this very ironic.

    The CDC had been recommending that even fully vaccinated people wear masks. People complained that this recommendation didn't give people a motivation to get vaccinated (the motivation being you could remove your mask).

    The CDC just updated their recommendations, saying that fully vaccinated people do not need to wear masks, except under special circumstances. And now people are complaining that the CDC shouldn't have done this (too much reliance on people being honest, too confusing, etc.) and they should still recommend masks for everyone. They can't win (I've always thought if you are getting complaints from both sides, you are probably making the right decision).

    I suspect that part of the motivation for the CDC changing their guidelines was to give the fence-sitters motivation to get vaccinated (you can then take off your mask), but revealing that might be counter-productive in "tricking" people.
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  27. #1677
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swift View Post
    I suspect that part of the motivation for the CDC changing their guidelines was to give the fence-sitters motivation to get vaccinated (you can then take off your mask), but revealing that might be counter-productive in "tricking" people.
    But these are just recommendations, right? If someone is walking down the street without a mask, will anyone demand to see their vaccination certificate?

    If it's just a recommendation, and people are already ignoring the recommendation to get vaccinated, well . . .
    You have meddled with the primal forces of nature, and I won't have it!

  28. #1678
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swift View Post
    I find all of this very ironic.

    The CDC had been recommending that even fully vaccinated people wear masks. People complained that this recommendation didn't give people a motivation to get vaccinated (the motivation being you could remove your mask).

    The CDC just updated their recommendations, saying that fully vaccinated people do not need to wear masks, except under special circumstances. And now people are complaining that the CDC shouldn't have done this (too much reliance on people being honest, too confusing, etc.) and they should still recommend masks for everyone. They can't win (I've always thought if you are getting complaints from both sides, you are probably making the right decision).

    I suspect that part of the motivation for the CDC changing their guidelines was to give the fence-sitters motivation to get vaccinated (you can then take off your mask), but revealing that might be counter-productive in "tricking" people.
    Yes, it must be miserable working at the CDC at present, with various motives being imputed for every tiny modification of policy, and doubly so when it comes to the positively radioactive topic of face-coverings.
    Meanwhile, Ohio's motivational "Vax-A-Million" lottery has made headlines in the UK.

    Grant Hutchison

  29. #1679
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21st Century Schizoid Man View Post
    But these are just recommendations, right? If someone is walking down the street without a mask, will anyone demand to see their vaccination certificate?

    If it's just a recommendation, and people are already ignoring the recommendation to get vaccinated, well . . .
    Pretty much everything the CDC says is "just a recommendation". They are not an enforcement agency.

    As far as I know, in the United States, the only places that might be demanding to see vaccination certification are certain employers (demanding this from their employees) and very few companies demanding this of their customers (I know of one small cruise line doing this for passengers). I think there are countries demanding this of people entering their countries, but I'm not sure about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    Yes, it must be miserable working at the CDC at present, with various motives being imputed for every tiny modification of policy, and doubly so when it comes to the positively radioactive topic of face-coverings.
    Meanwhile, Ohio's motivational "Vax-A-Million" lottery has made headlines in the UK.

    Grant Hutchison
    I'm not sure if I should be proud or embarrassed or both (leaning toward embarrassed) about the lottery. As you might guess, there has been a lot of discussion around here about it. I don't suspect it will motivate a lot of people who are openly opposed to the vaccines, but it might motivate some fence-sitters. If it works, I give them credit for thinking outside of the box.

    It isn't Ohio's only strategy; they have been also doing all the public service announcements of various styles, as well as trying to make it easier to get vaccinated. According to the website I like for this kind of stuff, Ohio is currently at 42.8% of the population with one shot, 37.4% fully vaccinated, an infection rate of 0.89, and daily new cases of 9.1 per 100,000 people.

    Ohio is still mandating masks indoors, but has said they will lift those on June 2. After that it will be up to individuals and individual businesses. I'm curious to see what businesses do (including my own employer).
    Last edited by Swift; 2021-May-17 at 03:44 PM.
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  30. #1680
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swift View Post
    <snip>

    After that it will be up to individuals and individual businesses. I'm curious to see what businesses do (including my own employer).
    Walmart, Starbucks and Costco and Trader Joes, among others, have gone onto the honor system; if you are vaccinated you don't need to wear a mask and we trust you to follow the mask guidelines as appropriate.

    ETA: Here's the Costco policy:

    In Costco locations where the state or local jurisdiction does not have a mask mandate we will allow members and guests who are fully vaccinated to enter Costco without a face mask or face shield. We will not require proof of vaccination, but we ask for members’ responsible and respectful cooperation with this revised policy.
    The others have similar language on their websites.
    Last edited by schlaugh; 2021-May-17 at 04:17 PM.

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