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Thread: Measuring calories

  1. #31
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    I went from ~260 pounds to ~160, then slowly rose to about 185 and leveled off there.
    SHARKS (crossed out) MONGEESE (sic) WITH FRICKIN' LASER BEAMS ATTACHED TO THEIR HEADS

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by profloater View Post
    It is an act of will in the modern world,
    (snip)
    If you “choose” that by will power,
    You do you, I guess. But for most folks who are overweight, "choose not to be" isn't useful or recommended advice. That way has always led directly to "it's your fault you're fat" line of thinking in the real world.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    You do you, I guess. But for most folks who are overweight, "choose not to be" isn't useful or recommended advice. That way has always led directly to "it's your fault you're fat" line of thinking in the real world.
    And yet, if you're going to lose weight, you do need willpower (among other things). So the error is in connecting "it needs willpower" to "it's your fault", not in invoking willpower in the first place. Because there are many other factors involved, not least the socioeconomic aspects.

    To qualify for weight-loss surgery, our patients used to need to show compliance with a strict dietary regimen before the procedure. In part, this was to get their weight down in the short term, to reduce the risks of anaesthesia and surgery. And in part it was because weight-loss surgery isn't magic, and if people are unable to comply with dietary advice post-operatively, they will undo the effect of the surgery and/or make themselves ill. The recurring theme when I spoke to patients during my pre-op assessment was what a massive effort of will it had taken for them to get to the point they were at, and how proud they were of their own will-power. The dieticians used to say that about a quarter of their job was dietary advice, and the rest was supporting, encouraging and informing the patient's own drive to lose weight.

    Grant Hutchison

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    And yet, if you're going to lose weight, you do need willpower (among other things). So the error is in connecting "it needs willpower" to "it's your fault", not in invoking willpower in the first place. Because there are many other factors involved, not least the socioeconomic aspects.
    Yes, I was going to say that that is the dilemma. And I might be wrong, this is just my own thinking.

    On one hand, we don't want to make people feel terrible just because they can't lose weight.

    But on the other hand, we don't want to create the idea that "willpower doesn't matter, so there is nothing I can do."

    To me, it seems like a complex issue. There are times in my life when I have been able to lose weight through willpower, and other times that I haven't. I think a lot of it is the question of incentives: what are the incentives you get for losing weight versus the incentives you get for eating what you want. So it's not really a simple question of whether willpower works or not...
    As above, so below

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    You do you, I guess. But for most folks who are overweight, "choose not to be" isn't useful or recommended advice. That way has always led directly to "it's your fault you're fat" line of thinking in the real world.
    I tried to hint at the self body image issue . We all have one and it may be in tune with what others see in us or slightly off, I guess in most of us, or badly off, as in anorexia. When it is badly off it can be very unhealthy. Then there are issues we can not deal with , like compensating for trauma, or other experiences. I am just concentrating on the Calories but recognise there are important psychological issues too.
    sicut vis videre esto
    When we realize that patterns don't exist in the universe, they are a template that we hold to the universe to make sense of it, it all makes a lot more sense.
    Originally Posted by Ken G

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    That way has always led directly to "it's your fault you're fat" line of thinking in the real world.
    This is kind of repeating what Grant said, but the dichotomy between "it's your fault" and "it's not your fault" seems a bit cloudy to me. There are many things that are not really my fault, but that I can modify through my actions.
    As above, so below

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    And yet, if you're going to lose weight, you do need willpower (among other things). So the error is in connecting "it needs willpower" to "it's your fault", not in invoking willpower in the first place. Because there are many other factors involved, not least the socioeconomic aspects.

    To qualify for weight-loss surgery, our patients used to need to show compliance with a strict dietary regimen before the procedure. In part, this was to get their weight down in the short term, to reduce the risks of anaesthesia and surgery. And in part it was because weight-loss surgery isn't magic, and if people are unable to comply with dietary advice post-operatively, they will undo the effect of the surgery and/or make themselves ill. The recurring theme when I spoke to patients during my pre-op assessment was what a massive effort of will it had taken for them to get to the point they were at, and how proud they were of their own will-power. The dieticians used to say that about a quarter of their job was dietary advice, and the rest was supporting, encouraging and informing the patient's own drive to lose weight.

    Grant Hutchison
    I'm not saying "don't use your free will". Any decision making process uses free will. But at least in US culture, the use of "willpower" has acquired a specific connotation of "it's all in your head, suck it up buttercup, get over it, Just Say No." An oversimplification and denial of the very processes of support you are talking about. I grew up in the Self-Help era of the 1980s, when this overemphasis on self-reliance started here, and it's only gotten much worse today.

    ADDED: To clarify, when I said I can't willpower my way out of it, I mean need more than good intentions or motives if I hope to actually accomplish anything long term.
    Last edited by Noclevername; 2021-Apr-06 at 01:15 PM.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    Yes, I was going to say that that is the dilemma. And I might be wrong, this is just my own thinking.

    On one hand, we don't want to make people feel terrible just because they can't lose weight.

    But on the other hand, we don't want to create the idea that "willpower doesn't matter, so there is nothing I can do."

    To me, it seems like a complex issue. There are times in my life when I have been able to lose weight through willpower, and other times that I haven't. I think a lot of it is the question of incentives: what are the incentives you get for losing weight versus the incentives you get for eating what you want. So it's not really a simple question of whether willpower works or not...
    Yes indeed, I see it as a conflict between the unconscious “old” brain and the conscious cortex. If your unconscious processes including your body map is setting a higher fat ratio than your cortex, there is a problem. Your conscious self is aware of peer pressure, mirrors and photos. Your body map is maintaining homeostasis on its own criteria. You cannot talk your old brain into obedience, so will power is useless. The old brain responds to experiences and indeed to clues from, for example, gut flora. Sugar loving bacteria or fungi will make you crave sugar by using pseudo hormones, the communication system of the old brain. I dont want to over simplify, but if you kill off those gut flora by a wilful change of diet, for long enough, they do die. It is hurtful and futile to say someone chooses to be fat. They are not in conscious control. As to why the body homeostasis gets so far off a healthy balance, I am sure there are many reasons.
    sicut vis videre esto
    When we realize that patterns don't exist in the universe, they are a template that we hold to the universe to make sense of it, it all makes a lot more sense.
    Originally Posted by Ken G

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Mazanec View Post
    "Fridge thought"
    If they measure calories by burning the food, how do they measure calories of stuff like milk?
    It's surprising what will burn in hyperbaric 100% oxygen !

    TBH, I've no experience of bomb calorimetry with milk. I suspect that they do dry it first. However I do know that even soil will burn in the conditions in a calorimeter.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    ADDED: To clarify, when I said I can't willpower my way out of it, I mean need more than good intentions or motives if I hope to actually accomplish anything long term.
    I guess the important things to ask are, what is it that you are trying to get out of, and what are you actually trying to accomplish long term, and what is it that you need in addition to good intentions and motives? Are you talking about losing weight specifically or something more general?
    As above, so below

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by profloater View Post
    You cannot talk your old brain into obedience, so will power is useless. Th
    Sorry, I may be misunderstanding, but "will power is useless," isn't that what we have concluded is not quite accurate? Blaming everything on willpower, either as something that solves everything or that is useless, isn't that what we have concluded is problematic?
    As above, so below

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    I guess the important things to ask are, what is it that you are trying to get out of, and what are you actually trying to accomplish long term, and what is it that you need in addition to good intentions and motives? Are you talking about losing weight specifically or something more general?
    There's really two related problems, the Diabetes and the obesity. I've been trying to change both for a long time now. I usually say "Exercise is easy, I've started it a hundred times". Also I call my situation Triumph Of The Won't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    Sorry, I may be misunderstanding, but "will power is useless," isn't that what we have concluded is not quite accurate? Blaming everything on willpower, either as something that solves everything or that is useless, isn't that what we have concluded is problematic?
    I think the misunderstanding is between the subtle difference of the terms "will" and "willpower." I could be wrong.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    I think the misunderstanding is between the subtle difference of the terms "will" and "willpower." I could be wrong.
    Sure, what is the subtle difference between will and willpower?
    As above, so below

  14. #44
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    At present, this is just a general reminder to everyone.

    This thread is getting a bit off-topic, from a discussion of calorimetry, to a discussion of dieting, but that's not a significant problem. More significantly, I will remind everyone of a portion of Rule 1:

    People will sometimes talk there about personal issues they are facing, but they should refrain from requesting or offering advice that is best dispensed by a medical, mental health, or legal professional.
    Let's keep the conversation general, and not focus on individual concerns.

    Thanks,
    At night the stars put on a show for free (Carole King)

    All moderation in purple - The rules

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    Sorry, I may be misunderstanding, but "will power is useless," isn't that what we have concluded is not quite accurate? Blaming everything on willpower, either as something that solves everything or that is useless, isn't that what we have concluded is problematic?
    I should clarify: you cannot change your homeostasis nor your way of using Calories by mental will, but you can of course change your behaviour in what you choose to eat. To do that, you do get some hunger feelings but also you can use knowledge to decide what to do with hunger in choices.
    sicut vis videre esto
    When we realize that patterns don't exist in the universe, they are a template that we hold to the universe to make sense of it, it all makes a lot more sense.
    Originally Posted by Ken G

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