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Thread: Here It Comes...Again

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    I found it interesting, to the extent it's still on my shelves somewhere--a useful chronological narration of who was saying what to whom.
    But it's an absolutely classic example of conspiracy ideation. He simply assumes that UFO sightings can only be explained by aliens in spaceships--as early in the story as the 1950s, UFOs are making "incursions" that the American military are "powerless to prevent", for instance.
    Ah, I see. I used to read UFO books but after I became disillusioned with all the tall tales and evidence free conspiracy theories, I lost interest. My attitude now and for many years has been: Show me well verified evidence or donít bother me (well, I would also be interested in discussion of new methods to try to establish evidence). I donít want to pay authors to help them promote a misleading mythology.

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  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by grant hutchison View Post
    ETA: On reflection, I guess there are two separate problems:
    1) "Am I wrong in my belief that there are no extraterrestrial intelligences piloting physical vehicles in and around the Earth's atmosphere?"
    2) "Am I wrong in my belief that the current evidence fails to demonstrate that there extraterrestrial intelligences piloting physical vehicles in and around the Earth's atmosphere?"
    I'm more likely to be convinced of 1) than I am of 2).
    Indeed, I meant 1. Nothing would convince you that you're wrong about 2 because you are objectively correct. I do, however, find it telling that the Grant who answered my initial question at all, much less with serious thought, is the one to whom it was not actually addressed.

    So let's make this an official, Direct Question under the laws of the board, here, shall we? Grant Hatch: What would convince you that you're wrong?
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  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Van Rijn View Post
    I donít want to pay authors to help them promote a misleading mythology.
    For sure. My regular forays into UFOlogy come from the shelves of the local charity shops. Stuff often arrives in boluses as people clear their shelves of books that they no longer have a use for--I once picked up ten or twelve bird-identification books covering most of Africa and Asia, for instance (and felt slightly sad to contemplate what sort of clear-out had led to my little windfall).
    The UFO stuff is usually read and returned to the same charity shop after I've filled in my little notebook, much to the mixed amusement and gratification of the volunteer staff. But occasionally I decide to keep something around--Dolan provides a useful social history of the interactions of the main players in American UFOlogy.

    Grant Hutchison

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant Hatch View Post
    It's obvious that YOU did not research his history or the trail he followed to get where he ended up. I've been following his efforts for years. There is a much greater body of research, and data he documented which you have obviously not seen and implicitly ignore in your conclusions regarding his work. Just because I link ONE or two articles regarding his work does not mean that is all there is to it. He spent YEARS researching something he didn't believe himself at first but was eventually convinced (by UFOlogists) deserved an honest look. Sure, some of the things he pulled out of people were normal and didn't seem particularly unusual.... but some of his findings after having the "implants" analyzed by independent labs are truly interesting.... Isotopic ratios not found normally on earth, unusual combinations of metals not normally found together naturally, radio emissions from them......I suspect you will say that he has been removing micrometeorites that have somehow lodged themselves in these people.. A fair statement perhaps......but still....
    Grant Hatch

    Since you have now turned this thread into your advocacy of a non-mainstream idea, it is entirely your obligation to demonstrate the non-mainstream idea. And that needs to be more than "go read this book".

    You will also not make assumptions about what other members may or may not have read or done.
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  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant Hatch View Post
    Oh now..... Lots of all the above going on. Well... except the tissue sample. Somebody has one but not you or I!
    So where is it?? Why haven't the astronomers of the world confirmed, say, changes in acceleration or direction of a sky object? It should already be easily verified if that's the case!

    Yet it hasn't been seen by any observatory, let alone "lots" of them.
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  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    So where is it?? Why haven't the astronomers of the world confirmed, say, changes in acceleration or direction of a sky object? It should already be easily verified if that's the case!

    Yet it hasn't been seen by any observatory, let alone "lots" of them.
    (emphasis added) That need not be just professional astronomers or major observatories either. Amateur astronomers regularly track small spacecraft and asteroids tens of thousands of miles or more from Earth using conventional amateur telescopes. Others, simply using binoculars, look for and find new unreported spy satellites in orbit. They often report these things too, so other amateurs can confirm if they wish. Many people are looking up at the sky, and they find many things.

    "The problem with quotes on the Internet is that it is hard to verify their authenticity." ó Abraham Lincoln

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    Quote Originally Posted by Van Rijn View Post
    (emphasis added) That need not be just professional astronomers or major observatories either. Amateur astronomers regularly track small spacecraft and asteroids tens of thousands of miles or more from Earth using conventional amateur telescopes. Others, simply using binoculars, look for and find new unreported spy satellites in orbit. They often report these things too, so other amateurs can confirm if they wish. Many people are looking up at the sky, and they find many things.
    So, that news would have been widespread and reliable, and significant enough to be worth reporting on by mainstream media. Journalistic standards of objective proof would be met. Surely someone among that worldwide community would have reported it to the Press, allowing others to see for themselves, without relying on secondhand anecdotes or shadowy references to state secrets. It would break big.

    And yet I've never heard of that happening even once. No news is not good news, if you seek evidence of extraterrestrial life.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    So where is it?? Why haven't the astronomers of the world confirmed, say, changes in acceleration or direction of a sky object? It should already be easily verified if that's the case!

    Yet it hasn't been seen by any observatory, let alone "lots" of them.
    Isn't Omoumou accelerating as it leaves the solar system? That's what got a few main stream scientists, like Avi Loeb excited. Or is he considered main stream?

  9. #99
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    'Oumuamua.

    Last time I looked, it was behaving just in the way it would if it were outgassing. So absolutely not swerving around the sky in violation of the laws of physics.

    Grant Hutchison
    Last edited by grant hutchison; 2021-Apr-12 at 05:10 PM. Reason: fixed link

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    Quote Originally Posted by Superluminal View Post
    Isn't Omoumou accelerating as it leaves the solar system? That's what got a few main stream scientists, like Avi Loeb excited. Or is he considered main stream?
    I think the wikipedia article is a pretty good summary. There is some discussion of changes of orientation and velocity, but there is no mention of continued acceleration, but rather deceleration.
    As it leaves the Solar System it will be approximately right ascension 23'51" and declination +24į45', in Pegasus.[10] It will continue to slow down until it reaches a speed of 26.33 kilometres per second (94,800 km/h; 58,900 mph) relative to the Sun, the same speed it had before its approach to the Solar System.[10]
    ...

    On 27 June 2018, astronomers reported a non-gravitational acceleration to ʻOumuamua's trajectory, potentially consistent with a push from solar radiation pressure.[63][64] Initial speculation as to the cause of this acceleration pointed to the comet-like outgassing,[22] whereby volatile substances inside the object evaporate as the Sun heats its surface. Although no such tail of gases was ever observed following the object, researchers estimated that enough outgassing may have increased the object's speed without the gases being detectable.[65]
    But even if we take the most "optimistic" and speculative interpretation of Omoumou, that it is an artificial probe sent by an alien race, it is a very different type of encounter than the types discussed so far in this thread. For one, this object took an "astronomically" long time to get here, which makes more sense from known physics, but is counter to the type of behavior described by UFO advocates.
    Accounting for Vega's proper motion, it would have taken ʻOumuamua 600,000 years to reach the Solar System from Vega.[40] But as a nearby star, Vega was not in the same part of the sky at that time.[51] Astronomers calculate that one hundred years ago the object was 83.9 Ī 0.090 billion km; 52.1 Ī 0.056 billion mi (561 Ī 0.6 AU) from the Sun and traveling at 26.33 km/s with respect to the Sun.[10] This interstellar speed is very close to the mean motion of material in the Milky Way in the neighborhood of the Sun, also known as the local standard of rest (LSR), and especially close to the mean motion of a relatively close group of red dwarf stars. This velocity profile also indicates an extrasolar origin, but appears to rule out the closest dozen stars.[66] In fact, the closeness of ʻOumuamua's velocity to the local standard of rest might mean that it has circulated the Milky Way several times and thus may have originated from an entirely different part of the galaxy.[40]
    The object also showed no evidence of trying to actively contact or observe Earth or humans, unlike the close encounters that are described by UFO advocates.

    So, at most, such a very speculative interpretation of Oumuamua could indicate the presence of extra-terrorestrial intelligence somewhere within the galaxy, but if anything would indicate that their technology uses physics very similar to our own (no FTL) and would thus tend to argue against the types of encounters UFO advocates describe.
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  11. #101
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    I mean, playing Devil's Advocate , a STL starship could have arrived here before regular sky surveys were a thing, set up a multi-generation base somewhere on Earth, and send a few stealth craft out every so often to probe cows and tag graffiti into wheat fields and whatnot.

    But if they're really that good at not being seen, why fly around at night with their running lights on all the time? Sloppy work for a higher intelligence.
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  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    I mean, playing Devil's Advocate , a STL starship could have arrived here before regular sky surveys were a thing, set up a multi-generation base somewhere on Earth, and send a few stealth craft out every so often to probe cows and tag graffiti into wheat fields and whatnot.

    But if they're really that good at not being seen, why fly around at night with their running lights on all the time? Sloppy work for a higher intelligence.
    Especially because it turns out you can bribe humans to do both the cattle thing and the graffiti thing pretty cheap.
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    Actually I AM having a hard time finding any of the Lab reports on "implants" that Leir refers to but here is one I did find.... An elemental and an isotopic analysis.

    https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/c...IS?format=500w

    https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/c...pg?format=500w
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  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant Hatch View Post
    Actually I AM having a hard time finding any of the Lab reports on "implants" that Leir refers to but here is one I did find.... An elemental and an isotopic analysis.
    And what significance do you attach to these reports about a bit of solid iron?
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  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant Hatch View Post
    Actually I AM having a hard time finding any of the Lab reports on "implants" that Leir refers to but here is one I did find.... An elemental and an isotopic analysis.

    https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/c...IS?format=500w

    https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/c...pg?format=500w
    According to the wikipedia article, typically 69% of copper is 63Cu and 31% is 65Cu. Your link (with no explanation of what exactly is sampled) reports 70% and 30%. To me that is a completely unremarkable difference and is well within natural variations and measurement errors. Similarly, for zinc: 49% 64Zn, 28% 66Zn, 19% 68Zn, and your sample is 51%, 26%, 18% - again, completely unremarkable.
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  16. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant Hatch View Post
    Actually I AM having a hard time finding any of the Lab reports on "implants" that Leir refers to but here is one I did find.... An elemental and an isotopic analysis.

    https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/c...IS?format=500w

    https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/c...pg?format=500w
    So the evidence doen't match the claims.

    Grant, you'd get a much more sympathetic audience to your beliefs if you took the time to look at your sources and apply a bit of critical assessment of them. So far you have posted a blog by university students that is devoted to strange beliefs, a magazine article that is an advert for a book and some scanned in pages that don't support any of the claims made. If you will listen to advice - take the time to read your sources and ask whether they would convince someone who doesn't believe as you do. Because posting this continuous stream of really bad sources just makes your argument for your beliefs look incredibly weak. A completely neutral person on this topic would look at your links and come to the conclusion that your arguments are based on nothing substantive. You are actively harming your own side in the debate with these poor references.

  17. #107
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    Grant Hatch, could you please answer my question?
    _____________________________________________
    Gillian

    "Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

    "You can't erase icing."

    "I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gillianren View Post
    Grant Hatch, could you please answer my question?
    Well..... I can't un-remember what I saw those many years ago.... I simply cannot. Oh well, hopefully one day soon we'll know that they are here for sure. Depends on the Gov and/or the Aliens agendas...

    To answer your question.... I honestly don't think there is any way I can be convinced otherwise.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swift View Post
    According to the wikipedia article, typically 69% of copper is 63Cu and 31% is 65Cu. Your link (with no explanation of what exactly is sampled) reports 70% and 30%. To me that is a completely unremarkable difference and is well within natural variations and measurement errors. Similarly, for zinc: 49% 64Zn, 28% 66Zn, 19% 68Zn, and your sample is 51%, 26%, 18% - again, completely unremarkable.
    What?? That's not how I read it. It reported 35 diff elements with significant ppmw.
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    Whereas I could be convinced of ET visitation, with good evidence. Itís something I spent a lot of time looking into, with quite a lot of hope. Just donít ask me to accept claims unsupported by verifiable evidence.

    "The problem with quotes on the Internet is that it is hard to verify their authenticity." ó Abraham Lincoln

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  21. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant Hatch View Post
    What?? That's not how I read it. It reported 35 diff elements with significant ppmw.
    Why, in your opinion, would that make it of special note?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant Hatch View Post
    What?? That's not how I read it. It reported 35 diff elements with significant ppmw.
    I can't really see what to make of it. What is the sample? Is it just a lump of metal with those elements in it? It seems weird to me, but nothing there is anything that you wouldn't find on earth. If it's actually something built for a purpose, then I'd want to see the structure of it, not just the elemental makeup.
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    As I see it, if this had a very unusual isotope mix, that would be at least cause for serious investigation. It depends, but generally speaking, isotope separation is somewhere between difficult to nearly impossible. (Separating deuterium out from hydrogen is about as easy as it gets, because of the big mass difference, but it still isn’t trivial.) At the very least, it would suggest someone with huge resources that has an ulterior motive. Maybe they would want to show they perfected laser isotope separation or something.

    Or maybe it could be aliens.

    But there is nothing unusual about the isotope mix. It’s just a mix of elements with the expected isotopes. So whether it is just a chance blob of slag, or deliberately mixed together for whatever reason, there is nothing special about it.

    Incidentally, I mention slag because I remember a different claim, by someone else, I believe, that had an odd metallic blob lab tested, and made various claims about it, and then a metallurgist came along and pointed out it was just a pretty typical bit of slag.

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  24. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant Hatch View Post
    What?? That's not how I read it. It reported 35 diff elements with significant ppmw.
    Under two minutes with Google and here is an analysis of commercial cast iron with 20 odd elements
    https://eeodlewnia.pl/en/services/

    Plus plenty of the results are < some value - implying that they may not have even been there.

    I'll second the question from Van Rijn - please lay out what led you to believe that this was something so remarkable that it could only be due to alien intervention. Please give comparisons to more mundane materials to support your claims and show that you have conducted your assessment logically and have considered alternative hypotheses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant Hatch View Post
    Well..... I can't un-remember what I saw those many years ago.... I simply cannot.
    No one here argued that you did not see something of interest. What is in question is your interpretation of that event.

    Oh well, hopefully one day soon we'll know that they are here for sure.
    If they are, yes. If they're not, no.

    Depends on the Gov and/or the Aliens agendas...
    Depends on if aliens are actually here and repeatable, verifiable evidence exists. Otherwise the only agenda that matters will be that of the purveyors of It's Aliens books, shows, and memorabilia, who will continue to profit.

    To answer your question.... I honestly don't think there is any way I can be convinced otherwise.
    Still, this is a science site, so I can at least suggest you give scientific analysis a shot. Maybe examine the possibility that there's more than one objective reason for seeing moving lights. Start with your observations, ask the question of what factors can plausibly cause such sights, consider examining the known terrestrial explanations non-judgmentally and with an open mind.

    What you decide to do with this advice is in your hands.
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  26. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant Hatch View Post
    What?? That's not how I read it. It reported 35 diff elements with significant ppmw.
    I was obviously discussing the isotope analysis, which only reported copper and zinc, not the elemental analysis.

    I think a weird isotope ratio would be more telling of a non-Earthly object than a strange mix of elements
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    Here's the latest update on the OP....

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/15/polit...ent/index.html

    Basically it translates into a shrug emoji.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    No one here argued that you did not see something of interest. What is in question is your interpretation of that event.
    Thatís an important point. Every so often I mention my big UFO event where, after seeing something outside my bedroom window at night, I ran out to find a big humming object with multiple colored lights moving directly overhead slowly in a way completely inconsistent with regular aircraft. It looked like something from the movie Close Encounters of the Third Kind (and wasnít much after Iíd seen that movie). I was absolutely convinced I was seeing an alien spacecraft, and itís hard to convey the emotional impact I feel even now, remembering that.

    If it hadnít moved off to where I could see the advertising in the lit up sides and could realize it was a blimp (which Iíd never seen before except on TV), Iím not sure what Iíd believe today. I really can understand the emotional impact something like that can have, but it also gives me a good understanding of how it is possible to come to the wrong conclusion in the face of limited information and seeing something unfamiliar.

    So I donít discount how something can affect you, or how important an event could seem to you, but without verifiable evidence of ET spacecraft, I canít support that interpretation either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant Hatch View Post
    Well..... I can't un-remember what I saw those many years ago.... I simply cannot. Oh well, hopefully one day soon we'll know that they are here for sure. Depends on the Gov and/or the Aliens agendas...

    To answer your question.... I honestly don't think there is any way I can be convinced otherwise.
    Okay. So you cannot be convinced that your interpretation is incorrect?
    _____________________________________________
    Gillian

    "Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

    "You can't erase icing."

    "I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

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    I can't un-remember what I saw those many years ago...
    But do you remember it correctly?

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